For A Voice for Men, and its Edmonton offshoot, terrifying women is a form of “human rights activism.”
Men’s Rights Edmonton activist at work
So the self-described “human rights activists” at A Voice for Men have found three more women to harass. Here’s the story, which for many of you will have a depressingly familiar ring:
Members of Men’s Rights Edmonton, a small group that is for all intents and purposes a local chapter of A Voice for Men, has been putting up pictures targeting Lise Gotell, the chair of women’s and gender studies at the University of Alberta. The pictures, which seem inspired by “Wanted” posters of yore, feature a large portrait of Gotell and the caption:
Theft isn’t black. Bank fraud isn’t Jewish. And rape isn’t male.
“Just because you’re paid to demonize men doesn’t mean rape is gendered. Don’t be that bigot.
Gotell’s crime? She was involved in what appears to have been a remarkably effective rape awareness campaign focusing on date rape and featuring the slogan “Don’t Be That Guy.”
A Voice for Men took exception to the campaign because, even thought it did deal with the male victims of rape, it didn’t devote equal time to the problem of evil, false-accusing “girls.” No, really. Men’s Rights Edmonton Activists put up “satirical” versions of the campaign’s posters with the slogan “Don’t Be that Girl.” Now, MR-E and AVFM, at least according to the “argument” advanced on their new poster, seem to be upset that the campaign didn’t devote equal time to the problem of female rapists. [Note: this paragraph has been corrected; see note at end of piece.]
Gotell spoke out against the posters, and now Men’s Rights Edmonton and AVFM are doing their best to smear her as a “bigot.” Because she doesn’t believe that women are responsible for half of all rapes.
Since this is not actually true — more on this in a later post — it’s hard to see how this makes her a bigot.
As a rule, I don’t support tearing down the posters of one’s ideological enemies. Free speech and all that. But these posters are different: they’re slanderous personal attacks designed to harass an individual. Were they posted in my neighborhood I would tear them down.
And evidently that’s what some people in Edmonton have been doing.
Indeed, one recent night, several members of Men’s Rights Edmonton claim to have caught two women doing just that. While they don’t seem to have video footage of the women tearing down the posters, the MRAs filmed themselves following the women down the street and angrily confronting them for this alleged crime.
They posted the video to YouTube, and AVFM posted it as well, under the typically overheated title “Men’s Rights Edmonton confronts fascists.” They screencapped images of both women from the video and announced their intention to uncover their personal information:
MR-E would like to know the names of these two women so that charges of destruction of property can be laid against them. Also, the world should know the identities of those who seek to silence and censor messages advocating for human rights.
Of course, this is ridiculous. Tearing down a poster that was almost certainly posted illegally in the first place isn’t “destruction of property.” No one is going to be prosecuted for this. The police have better things to do.
But of course that’s not the real intent here. The real intent here is to scare the shit out of these women and other feminists by exposing them to harassment online — like the woman labeled “Big Red” and countless other women who have been targeted by AVFM and other MRAs (sometimes completely erroneously).
AVFM’s Paul Elam gave the game away with an “editor’s note” added to the post:
[A] woman who vandalizes man’s property and then flips him off when he confronts her about it on a dark street at night only acts in this manner because she is certain she has absolutely nothing to fear. Feminists terrified of MHRAs? My ass.
Elam could not have made it any clearer: the main point of this kind of “activism” — which has become AVFM’s bread and butter — is all about intimidating women, not helping men.
AVFM, where terrifying individual women is “human rights activism.”
Here’s the appropriate response to that:
CORRECTION/CLARIFICATION: I rewrote the paragraph starting with “A Voice for Men took exception,” which confused AVRM/MR-E’s current objection to Gotell’s views with its original “argument” against the “Don’t Be That Guy” campaign.
Posted on September 18, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, doxing, drama kings, edmonton, entitled babies, evil women, harassment, imaginary backwards land, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, not-quite-explicit threats, not-quite-plausible deniability, oppressed white men, paul elam, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, taking pleasure in women's pain, the poster revolution has begun, things that aren't fascism and tagged antifeminism, edmonton, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, rape, rape culture. Bookmark the permalink. 937 Comments.
Jason, You’re probably a drive-by, but are you really arguing that posting this video with an explicit call to try to identify these women is not an attempt to intimidate them? Bonus question: Once you paste a poster up in public, do you still think that it’s your property, such that it is a crime for another person to remove or deface it (e.g. by covering it up with another poster)?
Hmmm, gendered slur, ignoring that terrorism is about the desired outcome, not necessarily the actual outcome… implicitly calling for more of the same…
I think this is our drive-by troll of the day!
@cloudiah: jinx.
Wait, did I just call jinx on a comment posted 30 minutes before I posted?
I thought I hit refresh before I started typing! (runs away screaming in terror as the time-space continuum collapses around self)
You made me spit out my tea.
“Our terror tactics aren’t working, so we’re obviously not terrorists!!!”
@Howard
How do you know you aren’t just sprinting in one spot?!!!
Yes, such courage. It takes a lot of courage to try and silence your opposition, and then try and justify that in any way possible. What bold heroes, standing up to da paytreearkee!
We’ve got an edgy one here, folks. Watch out!
@jason
dude, they were putting up the posters in public space. You’re allowed to take down posters in public space. Get used to it.
Dude, are you forgetting that the MRAs were trying to harass someone? If i saw posters encouraging the harassment of an individual in my neighborhood, I would tear them down
If some young MRA courageously tore down Don’t Be That Guy posters, it would be a different story… you’d all be up in arms about evil MRAs trying to silence you. But we don’t do that. We actually respect the rights of those we disagree with.
There was no harassment. They have every right to call a public figure a bigot,
LOL
whut
wait, did the don’t be that girl (stupid but not really harmful as far as i can tell?) posters get torn down or the ones trying to encourage harassment against the person who spoke out of against it. Either way..
So much that you send them rape and death threats and dox them! So respectful!
@Jason
Citation needed.
Also, you came in late to the conversation, but there is a difference between posters against rape and posters that strengthen the narrative that anyone who says they were raped is lying. The mra is nothing but a bunch of rape-apologists masquerading under the banner of men’s rights. They don’t even want to support male rape victims, they just want to make raping women more acceptable.
And no right to encourage other to dox and attack them.
Well, I’ve certainly never sent anyone a rape or death threat. (A “rape threat” would be pretty stupid, since I don’t want to stick my dick in most feminists.) Neither have Paul Elam or any other notable MRA. We’re not responsible for a few internet trolls living in their mom’s basements who love getting a rise out of you prickly feminists by sending you “rape threats.”
Oh, Jason. You’re cute, tell me another one about the respect the MRM has for anyone who isn’t them.
Oh, so “Don’t be that girl” suggests that everyone who reports a rape is lying, but “Don’t be that guy” doesn’t suggest that every man is a rapist?
Jason: trust, no feminist wants your dick in them. I’m pretty sure even the non-feminists are like, “no thanks, asshole.”
Well, I can’t say I respect you guys much… I tried arguing on her respectfully a while ago and that didn’t work too well. So you’ve lost my respect completely. But I do respect your rights. You have every right to speak, no matter how much I disagree with you.
@jason
something we can’t prove.
followed by something that has been proven. Dude, please try to tune in with reality. Are you talking about the same elam. “fuck their shit up” elam? Get real, bub.
Nice scare quotes, loser. Also, cue no true scottsman (if I’m using that correctly. But I feel like this guy’s gonna go that path.)
Jason, it really doesn’t suggest that EVERY man is a rapist. Nuance, you assclowns do not haz it.
No. Although I know that a lot of MRAs think so!
OH, NO, JASON DOESN’T RESPECT US!!!! HORROR!!!
(emphasis added)
Go on…
hellkell – Oh, woe is us, for not having the respect of an ideology who obviously hates us and wishes to shut us down by using adhom attacks and doxxing people!
Oh, but “Don’t Be That Girl” DOES suggest that everyone who makes an accusation of rape is lying? Because they’re really the same thing, you know…
Rape. Not about sex. About power. And the rape threats are often trying to shut women up. You’re misinterpreting that horrible.
@hellkell
Of course, not every man is a rapist isn’t good enough for MRAs. They want no man to be even accused of rape.
“Oh, no, there couldn’t be anything like a patriarchy, so I’ll mock its existence with a mocking word! Haha! Women have always had the vote, been able to own property, all that stuff!”
Things men say that are really dumb, part one.
Parts two thru three billion will commence when Jason starts typing.
No, they’re not.
They’re really not.
But you’d move heaven and earth to avoid ever thinking about the structural differences, about little things like ‘which one is a real thing in the world,’ stuff like that.
STOP SQUEEZING YOUR BRAIN SO HARD
IT WOULD BE OKAY TO THINK A LITTLE
Jason – if you really cared about men being hurt from rape, you’d have “don’t be that girl” posters that state things like “just because he’s been flirting with you doesn’t mean he wants to do it with you, don’t be that girl” — as in, flirting doesn’t equal consent, don’t be that person who decides to rape someone.
You didn’t. Instead, you went the route of “don’t be that girl” posters, where you guys state things like “just because you regret it, doesn’t mean it’s rape, don’t be that girl”, where you imply that women who report rape are just lying their assess off and that false rape accusations are a bigger problem than they actually are.
You don’t want to help men. You want to hurt women.
They are not the same thing because the original was about how men, in a patriarchal society, often feel entitled to women’s bodies. It’s men freaking out when women don’t respond by going out with them when what they do is “nice” because they think basic kindness should get them sex. It’s girls being passed out at a party and boys thinking that means they can rape them. It’s people who see that saying “well, i don’t agree with what they did, but you can’t be so drunk” or “you’re wearing too skimpy clothing they can’t help themselves” or “boys will be boys what did you expect?”
NOBODY SAYS THAT FOR FEMALE RAPISTS.
that is why the posters are not the same thing.
Oh, yuck, I didn’t know the posters were like that. I just assumed they were random posters with “don’t be that girl” and no context written on it just to mock the original ones. *bleh*
@jason
::sigh:: does anyone want to deal with this loser? I thought trolls were supposed to be…less boring.
Okay, Jason, let me try to hold your hand ever so gently and explain this to you.
men actually commit most rapes.
men actually commit most rapes
men actually commit most rapes
This isn’t ‘feminist propaganda’, it’s something there have actually been studies on.
Because speaking up about rape and perpetuating rape culture are extremely different things. I know you (like all mras) don’t think rape culture is actually a thing, but I want you to tell me how any of this isn’t rape culture. (and actually read the damn links) (ps to everyone non troll, huge trigger warning for what follows)
very few rapists actually go to jail. There are lots of men who admit to rape, so long as you don’t use the word rape. Girls and women aren’t believed when they say they are raped (and neither are men (or non-binary people), but mras care more about harrassing women than actually helping men.) Hell, people can publish articles in the damn newspaper asking for a mercy call for first time sex offenders. And Texas says it’s okay to shoot an escort if she doesn’t have sex with you.
There is a huge, huge difference between trying to stop rape and perpetuating rape culture, and the mrm took a motorcycle and jumped over it by about 15 miles. Your false equivalency sucks, and only makes you look lazy. Get in check with reality before you spew more bullshit here.
Again, your false equivalency is pitiful. The right to free speech means the govt. won’t try to censor you, it doesn’t mean you can put crap posters everywhere and expect people not to take them down. (or heck sometimes posters get covered up when other people want to put up more, and that’s not even intentionally censoring.)
ps, don’t kid us, we all know the mrm doesn’t respect anyone’s right to free speech but their own.
Fade – I’ve seen the posters that AVFM put out for their “don’t be that girl” campaign. They actually DO say that.
@alice sanguinaria
uggh… now I”m gonna go find some brainbleach. No matter how low you think the MRAs have sunk, it can always go lower.
@fade
bingo.
Ditto. When a man gets raped by a woman it’s a different narrative. Men always want sex, so a man can’t be raped. Women are weaker than men, so she couldn’t have raped him. ect.
Fade – You can just say “Alice”, I can figure it out. :P
And this is just typical MRA stuff, just in poster form and not somewhere on the manosphere. The idea that people making false rape accusations on purpose is the big boogyman of the MRA in regards to rape. That and “what about the menzzzzzzzzzzz”, except that they’ve never really given a shit about male rape victims either.
Note that I said “on purpose”. See Ms. Pervocracy’s post on “Ten Shades of False Rape Accusations”.
Our movement has lost a powerful ally. ::shakes head sadly::
Unless Cliff has stated that we should use gender-neutral pronouns, in which case I apologize.
They are not the same thing because the original was about how men, in a patriarchal society, often feel entitled to women’s bodies.
Men don’t. Most men work hard to get the attention of women consensually. Entitlement is wanting something for nothing.
It’s men freaking out when women don’t respond by going out with them when what they do is “nice” because they think basic kindness should get them sex.
This is why we need a men’s movement – because you feminists are absolutely horrible at speaking for us men.
It’s girls being passed out at a party and boys thinking that means they can rape them. It’s people who see that saying “well, i don’t agree with what they did, but you can’t be so drunk” or “you’re wearing too skimpy clothing they can’t help themselves” or “boys will be boys what did you expect?”
Most men would never rape a drunk girl covered in her own bodily fluids at a party. Most men want lots of sex – and they want it consensually. Most men would look down on a rapist as a loser who can’t get laid the normal way. Rapists tend to be a small subsection of men, who are responsible for many other incidences of violence, who know what they’re doing is wrong, and who do it over and over. It’s not a normal thing that guys do. It’s something a few narcissistic sociopaths do. But those types are out there. You won’t convince them not to rape with a poster. They’ll just laugh. All “Don’t be that guy” will do is stigmatize normal men. It won’t stop a single rape. If rapists were normal men, I’d support reasoning with them and trying to get them to stop. But they aren’t. So even though it’s entirely the fault of the rapists, we should be teaching women to protect themselves, and to report their rapists, if we actually want to stop sexual assaults from happening.
NOBODY SAYS THAT FOR FEMALE RAPISTS.
Because nobody even talks about female rapists, least of all you feminists?
@jason
cute. please actually respond to the links I left you.
Ps, why isn’t the mrm talking about female rapists? Instead they talk about false rape accusations, which rarely happen.
What exactly do you think feminism is for, dipshit? Way to miss the point.
You got a citation for that?
I’m going to say again that I am very glad that civil rights activists 20th century didn’t just say, “Well, lynchings are just things that really bad people do; everyone else knows how bad lynching is, so there’s no point in campaigning or trying to do something about it. Lynchers will just laugh at that! It won’t stop a single lynching.”
And um, feminists are the ones saying that consent is important for everybody, including men. Which kind of means we DO acknowledge the existence of female rapists?
Most men wouldn’t. 1 in 20 would. and then people would BLAME THE VICTIMS.
The thing isn’t saying all men are rapists. It’s saying SOME are and some people help them by perpetuating rape culture.
No, you won’t, but you might help stop attitudes of rape culture.
“They’ll just laugh. All “Don’t be that guy” will do is stigmatize normal men. It won’t stop a single rape.”
I am beyond sick and tired of dudes saying that while ignoring this:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/dont-be-that-guy-ad-campaign-cuts-vancouver-sex-assaults-by-10-per-cent-in-2011/article1359241/
This is why we don’t need a men’s movement. Because MRAs pour shit over everything.
And please don’t pretend you’re speaking for me. The things you say horrify me. You’re not speaking for men, you’re speaking for you.
^^ “activists in the 20th” ^^
SO MUCH WRONG:
No, rapists are just regular dudes, stop it right now with the “they are mentally ill” shit.
Normal (whatever that is) men rape.
While you’re giving out helpful hints to women and making them report their rapes, maybe you can tell the cops and the judicial system to give a fuck. You make it sound so easy.
Or you can fuck off.
@chibigodzilla:
A source?
Meet the Predators.
About self-confessed rapists.
The relevant bit:
@Jason
not to mention, the sad thing about rape is that rapists lives are ruined. Societal attitudes about rape a freaking problem.
But everything Thomas writes about Lisak & Miller, and McWhorter, and their studies. All of it. It’s important stuff.
And a lot of it is key to understanding the MRM, too.
Jason – Men don’t feel entitled to women’s bodies? BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
Because obviously no one has ever implied that that denial of poon is a tragedy and that women’s agency is a tragedy for men because they can’t stick themselves into a woman who doesn’t want it.
Okay, Marie, here we go…
Your link shows slightly more than a hundred rapists, out of nearly two thousand men. You highlight the 120 men who have raped in red, but you don’t acknowledge the fact that 1,762 men haven’t raped. If rape was part of normal masculinity, you wouldn’t get such a high percentage of men who hadn’t raped at all. So, I think that supports my thesis that rapists are a small subset of men.
Considering that you can be labeled a sex offender and have your life ruined if you pee on a bush or go streaking now, I’d actually support a mercy call for first-time sex offenders, too. Then again, the guy in the article was actually talking about rapists. I think he supports being merciful on first-time rapists because he’s bought into the feminist myth that rapists are normal men who didn’t know what they were doing. it follows from that that many rapists might deserve a second chance.
By the way, mercy is never something to laugh at.
In that Texas case, the jury didn’t acquit the defendant based on the property rights argument, but on the argument that the defendant hadn’t intended to shoot the victim, but was aiming for her truck instead. Lawyers use every defense, no matter how silly it might sound – that’s their job. And in this case it’s irrelevant.
How do you know that “Don’t be that guy” didn’t just cut reports of sexual assault, by normalizing rape?
Oh, hellkell, such an eloquent and well-thought-out response…
http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/06/08/no-texas-law-does-not-say-you-can-shoot-an-escort-who-refuses-to-have-sex/
Thank you for confirming that you are a horrible person.
For you to coddle first time sex offenders, you have to ignore their first victims.
Also, 1 in 20? That is not super low. One of the men I interact with is probably a rapist. How the hell is that acceptable?
It is one thing to say that someone who streaks or pees while in public should not be put on a sex offender list; I wager most people here would agree with that. But you seem to be saying all sex offenders should get one “Get out of jail free” card, including rapists. NOPE.
NOPE!
Mostly because we’re not incredibly stupid.
Wrong again, chump. They’re normal men who know EXACTLY what they’re doing.
How’s it feel to be this dumb?
Thank you for taking my quote out of context, Fade.
Your context was pretty clear, asshole.
Another troll who says terrible things, and then clutches his pearls when hellkell unleashes the f-bomb. Makes me laugh.
Picture: Jason’s suddenly more acceptable quote in context.
/sarcasm.
No, Cloudiah, you’re just not thinking like a scientist. You have to consider every possible alternative in an instance of correlation. Causation is very hard to prove, anyone with an education could tell you that.
I know, cloudiah. I’d much rather be “eloquent” than stone stupid like Jason.
@Jason
Okay, so if you don’t go on reporting rape as a way to figure out how much rape is going on, how else are you supposed to figure it out? Mass-telepathy
Scientists look for EVIDENCE. You are dismissing the evidence because it does not mesh with your world view