Should gaming be a “safe space” for nerdy dudes who hate women? The Men’s Rights perspective
I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](http://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/fakegeek.png?w=604)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
Posted on August 20, 2013, in a woman is always to blame, all about the menz, antifeminism, are these guys 12 years old?, bullying, creep-shaming, dozens of upvotes, entitled babies, evil women, facepalm, female beep boop, geek girls, imaginary oppression, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, no girls allowed, oppressed men, reddit, straw feminists, video games and tagged antifeminism, fake geek girls, gaming, geek girls, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, reddit, video games. Bookmark the permalink. 1,189 Comments.
asshats like the ones being mocked here would have everyspace made woman free,
No they wouldn’t. This is just you making sh*t up. Another dishonest tactic.
Who are major geeks in various forms of embroidery,
Great. I play co-ed soccer and sometimes snowboard with women. What’s your point? I mean, other than the lie you told about male geeks wanting a woman-free world.
Let’s just revisit the post:
Also, OMFG guys, one of my favorite comics creators made a limited, paper-only run of a comic. It sold out in two hours, but GUESS WHO GOT HIS ORDER IN FIRST? *points to self*
PS: Asher is actually a large automaton made entirely of duct tape and turtles.
katz has posted evidence that Asher is an anti-puppyist. KILL HIM. BURN HIM.
NOW who’s being intellectually dishonest?
I don’t think you understand what “intellectual dishonest” means. It’s not the same thing as a lie, per se. If you’re interested in the concept I would invite you to read Aristotle’s Sophistical Refutations. In fact this comment of yours is intellectually dishonest in implying that I am arguing just for the sake of arguing.
What you are doing is speculating on why I *really* made the initial comment. I have not speculated about you but, merely, pointed out your behavoir.
RE: Asher
I don’t think you understand what “intellectual dishonest” means
I don’t think you understand a lot of things.
In fact this comment of yours is intellectually dishonest in implying that I am arguing just for the sake of arguing.
No, no, it was intellectually dishonest because I said you were made out of duct tape and turtles, when in fact you are made out of duct tape and babies.
Seriously, guys, this guy is the most fun I’ve had here all week. Please, PLEASE can I keep him?
Consider the following claim: There was a fifty percent increase in the number of black homosexuals who voted Republican from 2010 to 2012.
For argument’s sake let’s say that this figure is correct and it refers to two such individuals who voted in 2010 to three who voted GOP in 2012. Now, one individual is statistically insignificant so, while the statement may be entire correct it is misleading. That would be an example of intellectual dishonesty.
Nothing in the original post was a flat-out lie.but his equating male geeks with the Klan was intellectually dishonest.
On the other hand, your claim that “those people” you guys was mocking want a woman-free world *was* a lie, not intellectual dishonesty.
I don’t think you understand a lot of things.
Can you cite examples?
LBT, yes, you can keep him. You’ve been good.
Asher, do you think KKK members, and/or computer nerds deserve a “safe space” free of FEMALES?
Asher, do you think KKK members, and/or computer nerds deserve a “safe space” free of FEMALES?
You don’t understand the way the world works. My three year old thinks he has a “right” to ice cream before dinner. I assure you, he does not. While I am no fan of Jeremy Bentham he nailed it when he called rights “nonsense on stilts”.
No one *deserves* anything. That’s just not the way the world works.
RE: Asher
On the other hand, your claim that “those people” you guys was mocking want a woman-free world *was* a lie, not intellectual dishonesty.
You weren’t here for Anthony Zarat. Or Meller. Oh, believe you me. We only wish we were being dishonest. It’d be so much nicer.
Asher, MRA’s and the more virulent nerdbros have no interest in women they can’t fuck or get to clean up for them. I do not offer this as scientifically proven fact, I offer it as observations made through listening to them go on ad nasuem. It is my considered opinion and a personal viewpoint.
I’m also quite aware that many many geeky/nerdy men do not want male only spaces and are very welcoming to women who share their interests. Mainly, because I had the good fortune of growing up with guys like that.
Why so pissed that I point and laugh at idiots when they behave like idiots? You can’t spend your life whining about how no one understands you and how aweful it is that no one shares your interests and then turn away people who do understand and/or share your interests because you don’t like what you presume they carry about in their pants.
Do you have a link to some post or comment where those individuals explicate the desire for a woman-free world?
Asher is incapable of answering a simple yes/no question.
RE: Asher
Can you cite examples?
I would, but you wouldn’t understand them.
No one *deserves* anything.
See? You don’t deserve examples anyway. But fear not. I’ll happily keep feeding you intellectual dishonesty because it’s half past one in the morning and I like you.
I mean, atdevel pretty much said that the test of whether or not a woman was a real nerd was did she sleep with him. If she didn’t, she was a fake nerd.
Do you denounce atdevel, Asher?
LBT, I will go to sleep happy knowing that you have Asher well in hand. XD
Asher, MRA’s and the more virulent nerdbros have no interest in women they can’t fuck or get to clean up for them.
Men and women, on average, are very different creatures, and a society that does not grasp this is doomed for collapse. What you attribute to MRAs is a rhetorically dishonest way of referring to how people lived in much of human history. Men went to earn outside the home, while the women raised the children, managed the house and, sometimes, had a part-time side job; they got together and made children. What you call “fuck and … clean up for them” has been a pretty standard model of human life throughout most of history.
RE: cloudiah
Do you denounce atdevel, Asher?
Even if he doesn’t, I WILL! :D
Seriously, today was my day of celebrating getting disability, and this is the best trollpresent I could ever have.
Asher is incapable of answering a simple yes/no question.
I refuse to answer yes/no questions that are rhetorically dishonest.
Men and women, on average, are very different creatures, and a society that does not grasp this is doomed for collapse.
Heehee… you guys want to tell him, or should I?
I mean, atdevel pretty much said that the test of whether or not a woman was a real nerd was did she sleep with him. If she didn’t, she was a fake nerd.
There is some logic to that position. Logically, people come together for sexual relationships on the basis of wider shared interests. If nerd-dom is such a defining identity then a woman isn’t probably a nerd if her sexual activities don’t involve cavorting with nerd men.
What I suspect is that for men who identify themselves as “nerds” the identity is a huge part of who they are but for lots of women who adopt the label it is nowhere near as central to their identity. I can see why men who make nerdiness a central part of their identity would be irritated by people to whom it is not central to their identity appropriating that label.
Seems pretty reasonable to me.
Heehee… you guys want to tell him, or should I?
Hmm, let me guess. You’re one of those liberal-creationists who doesn’t believe that evolution plays any role in patterns of human behavior.
>completely distorts david’s analogy
>accuses him of being intellectually dishonest
Shiggy diggy doo >_>
Aw, Asher hon, I liked you better when you were talking about small children. :(
“Hmm, let me guess. You’re one of those liberal-creationists who doesn’t believe that evolution plays any role in patterns of human behavior.”
More likely someone who has a basic understanding of human psychology and the problems with attributing all behavior disproportionately to biology.
completely distorts david’s analogy
I distorted nothing. The analogy was intellectually dishonest. It uses the standard emotional disgust that normal people have for the Klan and tries to transfer that emotional disgust to male geeks via dishonest rhetoric.
Analogies can be intellectually dishonest.
Asher is clearly NOT a history nerd, or he would know that historically, the majority of women have worked outside the home, have owned their own businesses etc, ect.
No, seriously dude the 1950’s was only a decade long and intellectually dishonest in showing a lifestyle most americans couldn’t afford (having a stay at home mom).
Hey LBT, do these jeans make me look intellectually dishonest? Or just fake geeky?
RE: Asher
liberal-creationists
THAT’S MORE LIKE IT! But anyway, to your statement.
Hmm, let me guess. You’re one of those liberal-creationists who doesn’t believe that evolution plays any role in patterns of human behavior.
Nah. I’m transgendered. I also believe that CULTURAL evolution has had a much bigger hand in our personalities, the past few thousand years than BIOLOGICAL evolution.
Such a rigorous and philosophically informed objection to the concept of rights! Totally not plagued by straw men assumptions at all!
RE: pillowinhell
Hey LBT, do these jeans make me look intellectually dishonest? Or just fake geeky?
You and me must be looking at different jeans, cause all I be seeing is FABULOUS.
“I distorted nothing.”
Yes, you did. You did so by making a completely absurd interpretation of that analogy.
someone who has a basic understanding of human psychology
Science is nothing more than the explanation that best fits, explains and predicts the observable facts. When you address a subject in terms of cause and effect every cause is, itself, the effect of a prior cause. Any really scientific “human psychology” involves massive chains of cause and effect extending back into long before recorded history.
The very “social causes” that get identified are, themselves nothing more than effects of prior causes. All human society is a reaction to human biology. If you don’t think that human society is a product of human biology then you have to explain what the causal foundation is for human society.
LBT, aww shucks! You say the sweetest things.
RE: Asher
If nerd-dom is such a defining identity then a woman isn’t probably a nerd if her sexual activities don’t involve cavorting with nerd men.
Well, I ain’t a woman, I’m a gay man, but I married a strapping jock boy who doesn’t know D&D from a hole in the ground. Well shit, I guess all my dice, comic books, and absurd knowledge of superhero trivia means jack all then.
What I suspect is that for men who identify themselves as “nerds” the identity is a huge part of who they are but for lots of women who adopt the label it is nowhere near as central to their identity.
Citation sorely, sorely needed buddy. My sister took being a nerd more seriously than I EVER did.
Yes, you did. You did so by making a completely absurd interpretation of that analogy.
Fine. Then explain the analogy and how it applies.
Asher is clearly NOT a history nerd, or he would know that historically, the majority of women have worked outside the home, have owned their own businesses etc, ect.
Yes, I’m well aware that women have usually supplemented their husband’s income.
RE: pillowinhell
My social skills grow progressively better the later it gets at night.
ORLY? And who was it that jumped o this thread to point out (eroneously) that geeky guys deserve to not be painted with the same brush as the kKk?
All that analogy does is compare the racist exclusionary attitude of the KKK to the sexist exclusionary attitude of male nerds who think that they need to keep “fake gamer girls” out. I wouldn’t say it’s a flawless analogy, but either way, the point stands: the latter group is being sexist and exclusionary.
RE: Asher
Yes, I’m well aware that women have usually supplemented their husband’s income.
Queen Cleopatra would like a word with you. So would Sojourner Truth. Seriously, buddy, she made a speech on this a hundred and fifty years ago.
And my mother supported my father through his doctorate. I have single/divorced aunts. ‘Supplemented his income’ my ass.
Citation sorely, sorely needed buddy. My sister took being a nerd more seriously than I EVER did.
Ah, yes, the “citation needed” hand waving evasion, like there is some “expert” on nerd-dom in the sense that a physicist is an expert in physics. As men get older they shift from reading fiction to reading non-fiction, and I suspect that historical sci fi is a type of fiction that tends to push the same intellectual buttons as non-fiction does. Reading is a huge part of my personal identity, it just doesn’t involve any fiction.
Does your sister also read a lot of stuff like science and philosophy? Does she like to tinker with cars or gadgets?
@ LBT
Those anecdotes are entirely true. They are also completely orthogonal that women and men have always, on average, played significantly different roles in society.
Totally not vague and baseless at all.
The number of humans who do not believe in a just world theory could probably be counted by the number of electrons in a helium atom.
Apparently, against all known laws of physics, one such electron is sentient and named Asher.
Can’t we have more interesting trolls? This latest crop is so dull.
All that analogy does is compare the racist exclusionary attitude of the KKK to the sexist exclusionary attitude
Which is why the analogy was intellectually dishonest. The KKK were not merely white people who wanted picnics only with other white people. In analogy the facts of the respective objects have to be similar.
For the anaology to have been intellectually honest rhetoric the male geeks would have to be running around terrorizing people. BTW, identities *are* exclusionary; that *is* what they do. If you claim that you are not an exclusionary person then you are saying that you lack identity.
No identity, no entity – WVO Quine
BAWWWW some women aren’t nerds in the way that some male nerds approve of! Not making “nerd” a central part of one’s identity is definitely something for others to whine about constantly!
Cry me a fucking river.
The number of humans who do not believe in a just world theory
That’s odd. A very large segment of Nietzsche’s writing is dedicated to dismantling the notion of a “just world”. I’m pretty sure he’s still read for a reason.
RE: Asher
Ah, yes, the “citation needed” hand waving evasion, like there is some “expert” on nerd-dom in the sense that a physicist is an expert in physics.
Gee, that sounds totally intellectually honest there.
As men get older they shift from reading fiction to reading non-fiction, and I suspect that historical sci fi is a type of fiction that tends to push the same intellectual buttons as non-fiction does.
I have no idea how this relates to anything, and as a man who reads nonfiction AND historical sci-fi… I read them for very different reasons. Hell, I like Wells and Verne and Burroughs as much as the next guy, but I don’t read them with the intent of being educated.
Does your sister also read a lot of stuff like science and philosophy? Does she like to tinker with cars or gadgets?
My sister’s dead. But before she died, she liked books on anatomy, neurology, and she once completely took apart a Nintendo with a screwdriver and put it back together again. Why do you ask?
women and men have always, on average, played significantly different roles in society.
That’s not the claim you made. You claimed that women didn’t work, which is bollocks. Trying to distract me is pretty dishonest of you.
He was comparing a certain aspect of the KKK group with a certain aspect of these particular nerds. He didn’t bother comparing both groups wholly. The fact that the KKK engages in terrorist tactics is irrelevant.
RE: CassandraSays
Can’t we have more interesting trolls? This latest crop is so dull.
Are you kidding? I love this guy! Whaddaya wanna bet he’s Pell again, having just learned a new vocabulary word?
BAWWWW some women aren’t nerds in the way that some male nerds approve of!
Uh, that’s how identities work. What do you think all of the “Uncle Tom” rhetoric is all about when used to speak of black people who vote Republican. “Keep it real” is an exclusionary statement, implying that those who do differently have a different identity.
Not making “nerd” a central part of one’s identity is definitely something for others to whine about constantly!
Um, arguing over identity has been a ubiquitous activity for our species. And that you label on of the arguing groups as whiners, but not other groups, makes you intellectually dishonest. I mean if it is “whining” for one group to argue about the meaning of their identity then it is “whining” for all groups to do so.
You don’t understand why puppies are cute. This is a very basic concept.
I read philosophy, and physics and politics and chemistry. Always have. What’s your point Asher?
And I’d like a citatation that mens inerests in reading materials changes significantly as they grow older. At what age does this occur?
Also, women don’t just “supplement” their husbands wages. Many many women are the sole breadwinners equal partner in bringing home the bacon in their families and that has largely been the case for much of history
This…may actually be the first troll we’ve had who insists that evo psych is the only type of psychology.
Whaddaya wanna bet he’s Pell again,
You know I have been “identified” as hundreds of different commenters on dozens of different websites over the years. Funny thing is, my first name is Asher and that’s the only handle under which I’ve commented since the start of the internet.
One thing is that people have discernible speech patterns that give them away and I’m quite certain that this “Pell” guy has a manifestly different pattern than have I. This, btw, is also just more intellectually dishonest rhetoric. Notice, that the only thing I do here is directly address what someone has said. I don’t speculate or impute things that people don’t say – that is the essence of intellectual honesty.
Also, I’m a guy, and I read fluffy gay romance and children’s books. Oh, and I write speculative fiction devoted to the psychological component of the bizarre and otherworldly. Buuuuuut I don’t fuck nerd/geek girls, so I guess I’m not truly a nerd/geek man.
This…may actually be the first troll we’ve had who insists that evo psych is the only type of psychology.
Every *thing* that exists has a prior cause. If you don’t think evolution is the cause of human psychology then you’re going to have to explain where human psychology comes from. It doesn’t work to say “culture” or “society” because I’m just going to ask you where those came from.
RE: katz
This…may actually be the first troll we’ve had who insists that evo psych is the only type of psychology.
I’m really curious what he thinks of multiplicity. I mean that totally earnestly too.
@Asher
Note: calling people intellectually dishonest constantly doesn’t make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a pretentious dipshit.
My basic point is that becoming indignant about the fact that not everyone is a nerd in the same way others are is absurd. It’s the nerd subculture, FFS. There is no “right” way to be a nerd, and anyone who wants to impose a standard of nerdiness on others is just pathetic.
“Science is nothing more than the explanation that best fits, explains and predicts the observable facts. When you address a subject in terms of cause and effect every cause is, itself, the effect of a prior cause. Any really scientific “human psychology” involves massive chains of cause and effect extending back into long before recorded history.”
Because you cannot observe human beings before recorded history you cannot conjecture about their behavior in any scientific way.
You don’t understand why puppies are cute.
Wide eyes. Soft features. Humans are programmed by evolution for those things to elicit an emotional response.
RE: Ally
Note: calling people intellectually dishonest constantly doesn’t make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a pretentious dipshit.
No, it makes him HILARIOUS.
Because you cannot observe human beings before recorded history you cannot conjecture about their behavior in any scientific way.
Sure you can. You are arbitrarily restricting science to controlled lab experiments.
“No, it makes him HILARIOUS.”
That, too! But I think it’s more annoying than hilarious.
Note: calling people intellectually dishonest constantly doesn’t make you sound smart. It makes you sound like a pretentious dipshit.
When I apply the label I give specific examples for that label. It’s not pretentious if it’s true; the term “pretense”, which is often misused, comes from the same word as “pretend”. If you’re saying that I sound “pretentious” then you’re saying that I’m engaging in pretending. Can you cite a specific example of where I pretended?
RE: Asher
Humans are programmed by evolution for those things to elicit an emotional response.
Then shouldn’t YOU find them cute too?
Asher, labels are defining concepts, they serve to help define a persons spirituality, thinking, goals ect. Exclusion is a totally different concept, although it is often aimed at different labels.
And it should be noted that Nietchez couldn’t get over what he deserved, the woman he fell for, and thus Spake Zarustra. So, it would appear that he was no more immune to a just world theory than anyone else. It could be argued however, that he clearly saw the problems it was causing.
My basic point is that becoming indignant about the fact that not everyone is a nerd in the same way others are is absurd.
Not only is it not absurd but arguing over identity is a huge and ubiquitous feature of all human populations throughout history. Arguing about identity is *who we are*. (note, that’s a pun)