Should gaming be a “safe space” for nerdy dudes who hate women? The Men’s Rights perspective
I’m back from a brief vacation in Migraineland, and thinking about the ways in which Men’s Rights Activists love to appropriate the language of feminism and other progressive movements, usually in ways that are face-palmingly ass-backwards.
Take this recent discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit of the dire threat of “fake gamer girls” invading the “male space” of gaming. The generically named guywithaccount sets up the discussion with this post:
![I want to talk about "fake geek girls" (self.MensRights) submitted 9 days ago by guywithaccount For those of you who don't know about this, there's a bit of a controversy in what I'll call the geek community. Apparently, when women attend geek conventions (that is, those celebrating e.g. video games, comic books, sci-fi and fantasy), some men accuse them of being "fake geeks" or demanding that they prove their "geek cred" by correctly answering trivia questions made up on the spot. Here's one article (of many) that talks about it: [1] http://bookviewcafe.com/blog/2013/08/08/the-fake-geek-girl-nonsense/ My concern for this issue is that, like anything else that involves gender, feminists and feminist sympathizers are attempting to dominate the discussion and frame the whole thing from a feminist and gynocentric perspective. The prevailing analysis might be summed up as "geek culture is deeply misogynistic, and the people complaining about fake geeks are just sad little losers who hate women." IMO, the geek subculture has provided a somewhat-safe space for many men who have been snubbed by the rest of society, where they are not expected to prove their value to each other by carving notches in a bedpost or exemplifying traditional masculine traits. The increase in mainstream appeal and female participation over the past decade or so threatens the safety and exclusivity of this space, and the backlash from male geeks is a somewhat-predictable response to the invasion of their space. Of course, there are few spaces just for men, and when someone tries to create or preserve one, they're accused of misogyny. I suspect that some of you don't give a crap about any of this and see the whole thing as petty, but realize that it's not happening in a vacuum. I believe it's merely a symptom of the fact that men have almost no voice in gender discussions and their needs are routinely denied or ignored.](http://manboobz.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/fakegeek.png?w=604)
Now, there is a teensy bit of gold in this pile of bullshit: the notion of a “safe space,” where oppressed people can come forward and discuss their issues without fear of being talked over or shut down by those outside their group — who have more power in the world and who may not have their best interests at heart (or who may just be Blabby McBlabbypants types).
But there are a couple of giant problems with this notion when it comes to gamer dudes declaring gaming a “safe space” for men. The first is that, despite lingering resentments over being “snubbed” in high school or wherever — evident in the OP and in comments throughout the discussion — these guys are not actually an oppressed people by any measure that really matters.
Indeed, many of them — as tech dudes in a male-dominated tech world — are in fact in fairly privileged positions. For them to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics. (Which is more or less what Klan members have argued over the years, albeit in less PC language.) No, I’m not claiming that all MRAs are the equivalent of hood-wearing Klan members. Only some of them are.
The second problem with the “game world as safe space for men” aregument is that YOU CAN’T JUST DECLARE BIG CHUNKS OF THE WORLD TO BELONG TO MEN. Yes, men dominate the gaming world in sheer numbers, both as game-makers and game-players. (While women make up nearly half of all game players — 47% — men tend to dominate the “serious” games that many geek dudes claim are the only ones that really count.) But gaming doesn’t “belong” to men any more than, say, novel-reading “belongs” to women — even though surveys suggest that women make up a staggering 80% of the fiction market in much of the English-speaking world.
Yep, that’s right: Women dominate “noveling” much more dramatically than men dominate gaming. Yet you don’t find women denouncing “fake noveler boys” or declaring that the male brain isn’t wired to understand the subtleties of written fiction.
No, in fact men are actively welcomed into book clubs. And my best friend, a woman, has spent much of the 18 or so years or our friendship trying to get me to read this novel or that novel, though over the years she’s only succeeded in getting me to read maybe one or two of her suggestions, which were pretty good, I have to admit. (I do plan to read some of the others, really.)
If you’re a socially awkward guy and want a safe space to discuss that, find a therapist, find a support group. Don’t pick on women gamers and pretend this is somehow your right because you’re oppressed as a socially awkward guy.
Anyway, here are some other dumb comments from the Reddit thread. YetAnotherCommenter warns feminists that they may lose some powerful allies if they continue acting so feministy.
Speaking of nerds who can’t get laid — which we weren’t but which these guys keep bringing up (and identifying themselves as) again and again — guia7ri seems to harbor some lingering resentments from high school, and who better to take that out on than attractive geeky women?
Hey MRAs, if you wonder why feminists sometimes describe MRAs as bitter men who hate women because they can’t get laid, it’s because MRAs like gui7ri so often EXPLICITLY DECLARE THEMSELVES BITTER MEN WHO HATE WOMEN BECAUSE THEY CAN’T GET LAID.
Meanwhile Byuku blames it all on evil feminists pretending to be geeks in order to make trouble. Because that’s what feminists do.
That’s how they get you!
EDIT: Added a sentence to temper and clarify my assertion that men “dominate” gaming.
Posted on August 20, 2013, in a woman is always to blame, all about the menz, antifeminism, are these guys 12 years old?, bullying, creep-shaming, dozens of upvotes, entitled babies, evil women, facepalm, female beep boop, geek girls, imaginary oppression, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, no girls allowed, oppressed men, reddit, straw feminists, video games and tagged antifeminism, fake geek girls, gaming, geek girls, men's rights, misogyny, MRA, reddit, video games. Bookmark the permalink. 1,189 Comments.
“Wimminz won’t let me dictate what they can and can’t like and won’t let me treat them as sexthings as the price for existing! Oh the pain, the pain!”
(I find it ironic, it’s all)
Like your avatar, arukaberu. Fierce fang cat!
Thanks kittehserf, I like yours too!
Thank you! :)
(You can call me kittehs.)
This is hilarious. Alex comments here, and then runs back to r/mr to tell them what he said.
They are like 8-year-olds. Seriously.
:-D
Logic fail in aisle one.
To start with, troll, we are discussing geeks…not nerds. There is a difference.
Second, being the victim of bullying does not a geek make. Geeks are defined by their interests and enthusiam in pursuing interests in things considered childish by mainstream society. While geeks are often bullied, its not the number of punches a person takes that defines a geek.
A safe space is not an entire entertainment industry.
Kim mentioned geekery in craft circles upthread, iirc – can you imagine any of these troglodytes allowing that CRAFT could be geeky?
RE: atdevel
There are more guy nerds than girl nerds because in elementary school, boys are far more likely to be the victims of aggressive bullying than girls.
First of all, all who are bullied are not nerds, and all who are nerds aren’t bullied. Also, aspies are necessarily nerds either. You’re comparing apples, oranges, and kumquats.
Also, nerdom isn’t a fucking political party. You don’t get to decide who gets represented and who doesn’t. Please, get off your cross, we need the wood.
I find it deeply offensive that you compare nerd safe spaces to safe spaces for Klan members. These privileged careers are only for nerds with good social skills, not real nerds like me.
…please tell me you didn’t just say being a Klansmen requires social skills.
I’m pretty sure it’s only the “bad guys” who dismiss out of hand the pain of people they don’t even know, becase they can’t be bothered to empathize.</em
Dude, nerds aren't fucking oppressed. I was a nerd, okay, you aren't goddamn oppressed. GET OFF YOUR FUCKING CROSS.
“Real nerds like me” makes me LOL.
“You women might be sexually harassed and worse by gamers and geeks and godknowswhat at conventions and online, but you’re not really oppressed, because you’re not REAL NERDS!”
What the hell?
“There are more guy nerds than girl nerds because in elementary school, boys are far more likely to be the victims of aggressive bullying than girls.”
Just give a citation, please.
“Another reason is that the rate of Asperger’s, which involves social deficiencies in men is 4-10x higher than in women (newsflash, women and men aren’t the same gender).”
Asperger’s? What does that have to do with anything? Do Asperger folks like geek stuff more than any other demo? You made that up.
“I have no problem with girls being involved in nerd culture. What I have a problem with is girls calling themselves “nerds” but then saying that I am “too nerdy” for me…”
Umm, you’re saying all self-proclaimed “nerd girls” do this? Do you know all “nerd girls”?
“…yet demanding equal representation. There are some exceptions though. I also know other guys that call themselves “nerds” but bully me for being “too nerdy”. For me, the fundamental definition of a nerd is someone who lives outside the given boundaries of our 9-5 reality.
Nerd stuff and geek stuff is mainstream now, thanks to generation-X. Wouldn’t say video games, sci-fi and other stuff is outside of 9-5 reality, especially since Hollywood executives have studio departments devoted to catering to fans of these things. Gaming is a multi-million dollar business — couldn’t be so if gaming was outside the boundires of 9-5 living.
If they are not willing to live up to this demanding state of mind, then they don’t get equal representation. Plain and simple.
As proven by science.
Eesh, forgive my typos.
Funny, isn’t it. Whinyboy proclaims himself the Ultimate Nerd but complains about women supposedly thinking he’s too nerdy. Presumably they’re meant to worship his nerdosity while never presuming to such status themselves. I’d say it’s a fair bet he also thinks they should be available for him to fuck, regardless of his lack of social skills or regard for them as human beings.
katz, do you know what the # signs on some of those categories mean? I saw one on history (HEY NERDBOY IMMA HISTORY NERD HAHAHAHAHA)
By the way, guys? You remember how I mentioned part of why I’m sick of geek/nerd culture is the attachment to a dynamic I’d rather leave behind in high school? This chucklefuck has just beautifully illustrated it.
See, I’d rather continue living my life IN THE FUCKING PRESENT, not focusing on bullying from high school and having nothing else to think about. I’d like to stop acting like the world is made up of preps, jocks, goths, hip-hoppers, and nerds, and you know, GET ON WITH MY FUCKING LIFE.
Well said, LBT!
Oh right…girls are Manic Dream Pixie Girls — their own interests can’t overshadow his.
“… regardless of his lack of social skills or regard for them as human beings.”
Charm is a nice thing to have. Everyone responds positively to it. Also, women like being treated like humans. She’s the protagonist of her own story, not a supporting player…not arm candy meant to show other guys what’s what.
Troll wrote:
“If they are not willing to live up to this demanding state of mind, then they don’t get equal representation. Plain and simple.”
Whoa, the lack of empathy burns. Also, as I stated above, liking geeky or nerdy stuff doesn’t require a “demanding state of mind,” just pure affection.
Kitteh: They are hashtags because that graph was compiled from Twitter data.
LBT comes up with another winner:
“See, I’d rather continue living my life IN THE FUCKING PRESENT, not focusing on bullying from high school and having nothing else to think about. I’d like to stop acting like the world is made up of preps, jocks, goths, hip-hoppers, and nerds, and you know, GET ON WITH MY FUCKING LIFE.”
Honestly.
**Slow clap**
I agree, we should stop living in the past.
So when are we going to ditch the whole “women have been oppressed for 1000’s of years” trope?
This troll makes me feel sorry for the autism-spectrum people I know. They get THESE douchewipes.
RE: Shiraz
Yeah, believe you me. I wasn’t main front during it, but oh, I remember those Manic Pixie Dream Girl days. Astonishingly, we pretty much completely got rid of those guys after I started fronting. I dunno, maybe the buzz cuts and complete lack of patience with their shit turned them off. Still, I did get stuck with the last of them. He wanted desperately into my pants… and seemed to think the way to do this was to constantly complain about how he was still a virgin.
I finally got sick of his shit and told him, “You know, dude, I can’t even connect with that. I lost my virginity by getting raped for a year.”
Him: “Well, at least you got some!”
I gave him a nice long stare, while he hastily fell all over himself trying to apologize, while still obviously envying me for shedding myself of that pesky virginity. Then I told him, “You see, guy, this is why you ain’t never getting laid. Because your head is wedged so far up your ass.”
Then I told him I had voices in my head, was transgendered, and never spoke to him again. It was beautiful.
katz, thanks. :)
Shiraz – I’m not even thinking of charm (which I tend to think of as something put on – ick) so much as this guy sounding like yet another who’s proud of having no social skills but requires women to be available to him anyway. Arm-candy, like you said. How dare those women not fawn on him!
You know why so few girls are diagnosed with Aspergers? Because it gets misdiagnosed.
to claim they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from the evils of “fake gamer girls” is a bit like Klan members claiming they need a “safe space” to protect themselves from blacks, Jews and Catholics.
I am not a gamer, techy type or anything associated with that stuff. That said, this comment is manifestly moronic. The entire function of the Klan was to terrorize the groups you mentioned. While I may not be very familiar with geek culture I am fairly certain it doesn’t involve terrorizing targeted groups.
Jesus, what a stupid comment.
BTW, I remember reading a blog comment somewhere from an old guy whose parents would sometimes take them to Klan picnics for the free food and then they’d go home and make fun of them. I mean if the Klan really is nothing more than a club for white people who only want to associate with other white people then I don’t see much of a problem – that sort of thing is pretty standard human behavior throughout history.
LBT:
“Him: “Well, at least you got some!”
Holy fucking shit. He said that?! Dear gods.
Kittehs:
“Shiraz – I’m not even thinking of charm (which I tend to think of as something put on – ick)…”
Oh, I didn’t mean it like that. I meant some people are good at making other people feel comfy, and that usually requires empathy…not being on the defensive and assuming everyone is out to get you. It’s generally nice being around people like that. They’re nice to you, with no ulterior motives in mind, so it’s easy being nice back.
Asher’s comments just gave me whiplash.
Asher, who are you defending? The Klan or dudebros who don’t want anything to do with any other demo?
LBT – fuuuuck, he said that? O_O
::head asplodes::
Say, I just remembered – I dreamt I met you last night! All I recall is a fistbump, and your vessel had short blonde hair, sort of tousled. Oh, and a check shirt, I think.
RE: Asher
I mean if the Klan really is nothing more than a club for white people who only want to associate with other white people then I don’t see much of a problem – that sort of thing is pretty standard human behavior throughout history.
You poor pathetic shit. You don’t know jack about the Klan, do you? THEY FUCKING KILLED PEOPLE. And terrorized them, and kept them from voting, and took high positions in local government to keep things going that way.
You mock a comment for making a comparison to the Klan, and then you fucking excuse them? What sort of human shitstain are you?
RE: Shiraz
Yup, that’s what he said. It was a Very Special Moment. Thankfully, I had long since stopped taking anything he said seriously, so it just served to amuse me. He was kinda my own personal chew toy for a bit.
RE: Kittehserf
All I recall is a fistbump, and your vessel had short blonde hair, sort of tousled. Oh, and a check shirt, I think.
Huh. You pretty much got it.
Asher, if you’re going to complain about the OP, try quoting the relevant section in full:
(Emphasis mine.)
LBT – cripes! I can only guess you’ve described your vessel sometime, ‘cos accurate dreams without that sort of basis just never happen to me. :)
@ LBT
You poor pathetic shit. You don’t know jack about the Klan, do you? THEY FUCKING KILLED PEOPLE
What is it about conditional, IF-THEN, statements that make people’s reading comprehension got to sh*t? Of course the Klan killed people. That’s what makes the original post so moronic.
I’m not defending the Klan. Hell, I’m not even defending the guys who want a male-oriented geek culture; I don’t understand it and have no interest in being a part of it. What I’m pointing out is the stupidity in the original post. It’s blatantly intellectually dishonest, and I hate intellectual dishonesty.
That’s all.
Maybe I did? That or you’ve seen enough of our comics. *tugs at shaggy hair ruefully* I was hoping to get a Symbolic Haircut on the day of our trip, but it’s looking like if I want unobscured vision, I’ll have to speed that up…
Also, if Asher is from the USA, he’d have to be a goddamn fool not to know what the KKK were actually like. Christ Jesus.
The Klan was a group dedicated to terrorizing targeted groups, whereas male-dominated geek culture is not. It’s really pathetic that I have to spell it out for you people.
RE: Asher
For someone with a problem with intellectual dishonesty, you sure like to play dumb yourself. Why even act as though the KKK could hypothetically be a white social club when you know full well what they were? Seriously, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with each comment you make.
@LBT
Well, if you are equating male tech geeks, as a group, with with Klan then it is obviously you who are ignorant of either the Klan, geeks or both.
RE: Asher
It’s really pathetic that I have to spell it out for you people.
Almost as pathetic as your communication skills.
Why even act as though the KKK could hypothetically be a white social club
It’s a rehtorical affect. The subject is not the nature of the Klan but that the original poster equated male geeks with the Klan. It’s about demonstrating the absurdity of the original post. It is not more absurd to hypothesize that the Klan is a social club centering around picnics than it is to equate male geeks with the Klan.
That I have to spell this out for you is pathetic.
RE: Asher
Well, if you are equating male tech geeks, as a group,
You seem to have me confused with someone else, buddy. I never did.
Almost as pathetic as your communication skills.
My communication skills are just fine. Any person with average reading ability would have understood the rhetorical affect of an IF-THEN statement in that context.
You seem to have me confused with someone else, buddy. I never did.
The original poster did and my initial comments were directed to him. Try comprehending the context and direction of comments before you respond to them.
Asher, your reading comprehension sucks.
This whining about geek spaces being invaded by women is from the Men’s Rights subreddit. The comparison with the Klan refers to MRAs, not geeks in general. Go read the link in David’s post.
>>>Well, if you are equating male tech geeks, as a group, with with Klan then it is obviously you who are ignorant of either the Klan, geeks or both.
Yeah, I mean it’s not as if male tech geeks, as a group, have been responsible for targetted campaigns of harassment against women. You know, like Anita Sarkeesian. Rebecca Watson. And so forth.
Hm. I just looked at that scientific proof of the difference between geek and nerd, and realized I clearly can’t make up my mind as to which camp I fall in.
So imma say that I can’t can’t possibly be a fake geek girl. I vote for a “this shit is awesome fun come and join me!” As a more inclusive label.
Of course, that would just be making the difference between ultimate nerdling and everyone else a little too stark, wouldn’t it?
In the context of a post equating male geeks with the Klan it is a rhetorical device to hypothesize that the Klan is merely a social club for white people. That rhetorical device demonstrates the absurdity of the original claim and any person with mundane, average reading comprehension would have understood that.
RE: Asher
Any person with average reading ability would have understood the rhetorical affect of an IF-THEN statement in that context.
And yet, you seem incapable of reading the comment you’re fixating on in ITS context. I see. Okay, it was an absurd comparison, though I didn’t make it. Shall we move on with the conversation now? What is your opinion on puppies?
Hey guys, about time you showed up. I was worried I’d have to play with this troll all on my lonesome!
I’ll have to leave you with the chewtoy, m’lord and I have public transport to hunt down! :)
And yet, you seem incapable of reading the comment you’re fixating on in ITS context.
The context is quite clear and I understood it perfectly well. The original poster was being intellectually dishonest in his use of that rhetorical device, and I was merely pointing it out. No amount of context can justify equating male geeks with the Klan and any attempt to use that rhetoric to justify any point is intellectually dishonest.
Now, rhetoric is an inextricable part of language and we all use it to make our arguments. That said, a rhetorical device must not be dishonest, regardless of the final point the disputant is trying to make. There may, in fact, be some reason that male geeks should not be allowed a woman-free social space but equating them with the Klan is not how to honestly make that argument.
Sorry LBT, I kinda got caight up in a new source of Taelon fanfic….
I was worried I’d have to play with this troll
You obviously don’t know what a troll is. A troll is someone who says stuff just to get in arguments. Usually, their comments are not consistent or coherent and they, often, don’t even believe the stuff they are saying.
In fact, it is an intellectually dishonest rhetorical ploy for you to label me a troll.
Asher has discovered the power of the if-then statement. I can say something without really saying it! Here, let me try:
If I had sausages for toes, I would try to eat myself!
If it rained watermelons, everyone would wear hard hats to work!
if Baby Geniuses 2 were a good movie, it would have won an Oscar! (No, that’s just too out there.)
RE: Asher
Keep up, will ya? I agreed with you. You’re right. Now tell me your opinions on puppies. That’s the subject of my conversation now. Not the Klan, puppies. And no fair using Klan puppies either, that’s just cruel and unusual.
RE: Asher
In fact, it is an intellectually dishonest rhetorical ploy for you to label me a troll.
You really have a fixation on intellectual dishonesty, don’t you?
I’ve never understood people’s attachments to animals. I really love spending time playing with babies under the age of two, though.
*snrk* I just…I’m sorry, guys, I can’t keep it together. This little self-awareness…
You really have a fixation on intellectual dishonesty, don’t you?
I do. I mean I REALLY do. If I observe a conversation where someone is using dishonest rhetoric, even if I entirely agree with their conclusions, I will stop the conversation and call them on it.
This little self-awareness…
Argument by insinuation. Another dishonest rhetorical tactic.
RE: Asher
Oh good. I’m glad you enjoy small children. I’d hate to think arguments over the Klan and intellectual dishonesty were the joys of your life.
Also, uh. If you didn’t come here to argue… what do you call the past ten comments?
OMG. I love this guy. If I promise to feed him a steady diet of intellectual dishonesty, can I keep him? (PS: MRAS ARE SNOWMEN.)
You guys, Asher gets to define what a troll is.
Asher, asshats like the ones being mocked here would have everyspace made woman free, if they had their way. Well, except you know, the kitchen and perhaps thirty minutes in their bedroom.
I know some guys (so excited!!! Meeting up with a local embroidery group soon! And some of the work the guys there do is AMAZING!) Who are major geeks in various forms of embroidery, so because they are geeky about this I should give up embroidery? I mean, I can’t really watch my favorite tv shows, can’t play the games I lke, can’t meet the artists I admire, christ lord help me if I were to produce my own artwork/game and ever try to show it….can’t sew costumes/clothing in time periods I prefer…all because a few douchecanoes decided that they get to push women out of vast areas of fun, entertainment or skill development and JOBS.
I’m sorry, but men don’t get to claim all the fun in the world for themselves.
I wasn’t arguing just for the sake of arguing. *That* would be trollery. My first comment was directed at the dishonest rhetorical ploy of equating male geeks with the Klan, and most of my subsequent comments were pointing out my use of a rhetorical tactic to demonstrate the absurdity of it.
I mean, he thinks he has the standing to call other people on their intellectual dishonesty.
Asher hates puppies.
Asher hates puppies.
Asher hates puppies.
Asher hates puppies.
RE: Asher
I wasn’t arguing just for the sake of arguing
NOW who’s being intellectually dishonest?