Long Weekend Open Thread
Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
Posted on July 5, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 1,365 Comments.
RE: auggziliary
I really wouldn’t know. Men’s groups mostly give me the impression that I’d be run out on a splintery rail if I tried to enter them.
I don’t really get what the big deal is. I had to figure out my gender in a vacuum, how I felt about it, and what I should do about it. It sucked, and I’d like it to get easier for everybody, but I managed to do it without being a huge dick. I was overdefensive and attempted to be macho for a while, and then slowly I got over it. The people who wanted to see me as a fag and a girl were going to insist no matter what I did.
Now I can cuddle and talk about feelings and cry if I’m upset, and I can just DO THAT, rather than flog myself over it. I like myself a lot more, and whaddaya know, turns out communicating honestly makes my sex life quite more awesome!
Someone once told me something I like to imagine I have taken to heart.
This person, fictional though it was, said this:
“You know? The best way to fake being popular and likable… is to be popular and likable”
What do people do… who want to be… with beautiful women?
Well.
First of all, they define “be with”. Merely be in the same room as? Talk to? Possess as a trophy? Have as a friend? Tenderly hold beneath moonlight shining on from above as waves lap against an enternal shore? When you say “Be with” do you mean “be in”, but you’re trying to be polite?
That kind of thing.
Then they take a breath and think about their motivations. Why do they want to be “be with” beautiful women? Is it to brag about it? Is it because it’s fun? Is it because you can have more good times with someone who is beautiful? Is it because they’re trying to prove themselves virile and powerfully male by subduing specially worthy prey in accordance to an ideal of beauty as a female ressource to be fought over by men? Is it because they want to dazzle “HB10″ with their peacocky sparkles?
And then, having done all of that, this is the important bit:
They go out and find people they would describe as beautiful and interact with those people.
And that’s it.
Because in our world, it stops there. It’s… it’s the end at that point. Beauty is a good, wonderful thing that can add spark and charm to many a fantastic endeavor (And without a mug as devilishly handsome as mine, no one would appreciate my internet wit). That may have been a coy joke.
In your world, though, and this is why we consistently disparage you, you make beauty into some kind of resource. It sounds as if you speak of farming and raising beautiful people to be enjoyed like a fine vintage of wine. You speak of encounters with women as if they’re nary but flighty interchangeable things you pluck from and sip, then let go, based on some sense of their fleeting blush youth and grace.
That isn’t, really, as such, totally and completely bad.
It just makes everything else you say seem so… hollow. You don’t give a shit about anything else, man, and it shows. It’s fine if you don’t – go ahead – but don’t pretend that you do.
And, maybe, stop… Going at this entire thing as if beautiful people where a scarce resource a man must cleverly trick into bed by wit and charm and mental tricks. They’re not special prizes to be hunted down by the man with the bigger so and so and longer list of negs.
Women aren’t grapes. It’s fine to have standards, but do you see where those very standards turn into weird, confusing labyrinthine justifications? Women can do so and so! She can get laid on a one night stand! A man will never have valid enthusiastic consent unless he’s hot! Without blasting someone with negs, I don’t stand a chance! Online dating doesn’t work for men because they don’t get unsolicited messages (!) ! Feminists won’t tell me how to bang beautiful people!
Well… No. Beautiful people are *people*. You sleep with them the same way you sleep with everyone.
If you have standards – fine. That’s why you said to that girl “Hey, I’m not interested in sleeping with you”. Or, well, you said a hurtful variation thereof in a room full of people to showcase your dominance and put your friends (the fuckers!) in their place for daring to set you up with someone who didn’t tickle your fancy.
But don’t waste anyone’s type by pretending it’s anything more or less than it is:
You’re upset and angry that sometimes, people make choices that don’t involve you.
Come on.
Get over it.
Huh? I missed where LBT offered to pay people back in food/art, I’ll do your laptop for the fun of it, unless you want to use it as an excuse to write more IS (hey, maybe your trip will provide good material for M.D.’s wanderings…though I doubt you’ll run into wiggle dancing dinosaurs or horrorbeetles)
Speaking of horrorbeetles! I’ve pulled SIX random beetles out of here in <72 hours (finally caught the scone June bug this morning, it was sitting on the window screen and fell out with very little prodding, hilarious considering it'd been bouncing into all the shiny things in here for two days)
I’ve used the liquid as well. When I was 11, I remember using copious amounts of that because I felt that liquid soap wasn’t as effective because it was liquidy and not creamy like the other body wash I had been used to using. I was very, very wrong. >_>
@LBT:
“If assholes choose to use an asshole way to deal with something, that’s still not the problem of feminists.”
O: Yes, but Feminists are the main ones complaining. In light of that, and since they are Women themselves, it would be really nice if they could offer solutions for guys in this regard. I’m not even talking about everything from A to Z; just something.
“Equating PUA with all men doing their homework is a false equivalence. I mean, I’m trans, so am coming from a different place, but I had to figure out my gender and my feelings about it on my own. I didn’t need Game to do it.”
O: And that is to be commended, but clearly, judging by the sheer size and scope of the pickup community (most of whom does not have assholes within it, I might add), I would beg to differ.
Again: it’s all about making and offering a better mousetrap. The Feminists, by and large, have failed to do so.
“Gay rights movement. The Robert Bly circles. And that’s just sticking with the past fifty years or so.”
O: Indeed – and none of them dealing with the question of sociosexual relationship concerns and issues of straight Men – which was what I was talking about, and I think you knew that…
@Hellkell:
“Well, then. Women’s agency by any means necessary, and if you and your PUA crew of slimeballs don’t like it, lump it.”
O: And what is Malcom’s legacy, today? We all heard what happened to his grandson recently, right?
Moral of the story: you need allies to make things happen. If rape and street harassment is going to ne effectively handled and addressed, it will take all hands on deck to do it. You don’t have to like me, I don’t have to like you, but we both have an interest in addressing this. That’s the stuff of politics, Hellkell. It’s how things get done in the real world.
@Cassandra:
“Does anyone else find it really creepy when trolls make smiley faces at us? I think it’s the combination of the attempts to justify rapey behavior and the pretend friendliness. It’s like being smiled at by a shark.”
O: And here I was thinking you were big, bad and tough! I suppose all of your other tactics hasn’t worked, so now you’re resorting to the fainting couch move, hmm?
@Hellkell:
“Cassandra: it creeps me out too, and makes me wish there was a way to disable emoticons for trolls.”
O: I’m sure Dave could arrange it…
“There is another way to cut OF off–David, could you please put his ass back on mod? It’s not that I can’t handle his… uh, “truth,” I’m just sick of him.”
O: Translation: I can’t effectively deal with his replies, and none of my otherwise lowbrow tactics have any impact whatsoever…
But seriously, Hellkell, please let me ask you: WHY do you care so much, about what the seduction community does, or doesn’t do? You’re married; the PUAs pretty much stick to themselves and hangout in places where you pretty much have to go looking for them such as niteclubs and the like. What’s it to you?
I’m just really curious…
O.
No, dude, I didn’t miss that part, I live on a volcanic island, obsidian is a dime a dozen here, and, like I said, it’s cold and lifeless. It’s kind of shiny if you polish it a bit, but that’s about it.
I know that it comes from Volcanoes, OMG, so Manly but so does pumice, maybe you should call yourself that, it’s just as fitting.
Dude, are you always this tedious and annoying? Because if so I think we have the answer as to why pretty ladies won’t let you stick your cock in them.
(Even the ones for whom looks aren’t their primary consideration.)
…Married people don’t go to clubs?
I missed this at the time because I was, at best, skimming those tedious walls of text before I started skipping past them altogether. I had decided that I wasn’t gonna feed the troll anymore, but this one is pretty revealing, actually.
OF objects to the scandal of ugly women daring to talk to him as if he could possibly be even slightly interested in them. Not the behavior itself, it seems, as he thinks that it’s just a “mating strategy” so long as they haven’t committed the sin of being “God-awful ugly or old”.
Correspondingly, women should be totes delighted if an “attractive” man catcalls them, though it doesn’t seem that they should be permitted to establish what is “attractive” for the purposes of this discussion, nor should they be permitted to find catcalling offensive or disturbing just on its face.
The key is that because he doesn’t mind when women talk to him (so long as they are not “God-awful ugly or old” mind you) he finds it incomprehensible that women could find it bothersome when some entitled asshole forces his way into their day, no matter what said asshole looks like.
Nope. I’ll take exactly zero allies instead of fucknuts like you that have to be handheld into it. I don’t want people like you as allies. All you want is your asses kissed, or to be Boss of All. No, thank you.
Really? You fucking came here and no one invited you. So much for not having to go looking.
I think you guys are creepy and manipulative. I think you’re a bunch of rapist wannabees. I know you’re out there, and that’s enough reason to root you out like the slugs you are.
Actually I’d be happy to ignore them, but unfortunately they keep barging into feminist spaces and demanding that we stop everything else we’re doing and focus on creating a get-sex-with-women-who-aren’t-interested-quick plan for them.
Cassandra:
No, we stay home and shrivel up. We have to never go out in public again without the old ball and chain. /sarcasm
Yeah, and I haven’t been hit on by some wannabe PUA doofus since being married. If you believe that, I’ve got some swampland to sell you.
What do they do? Be disappointed. They aren’t entitled to sleep with beautiful women and the fact that these beautiful women don’t want to sleep with them is just life. Not giving them ideas that try to trick these women into thinking the guys are better for them/more attractive to them than they actually are is respecting women’s agency to have sex with whomever they choose.
Yes, you never said explicitly “These men are entitled to being with beautiful women.” But you did say it, that’s what that sentence above implies. It implies that these men should be able to get beautiful women if they want to.
So the answer is, literally, too fucking bad for those guys. Same with anyone else who wants to “get” people who aren’t attracted to them. Too fucking bad. You aren’t entitled to sex, to being with someone, and certainly aren’t entitled to being with a particular “type” of person. If you don’t get sex and you want it – that’s too bad for you. Deal with it. Don’t try to trick people into thinking you are what they want when you’re not. It’s incredibly manipulative and dishonest. And it’s where the idea of tricking women into sleeping with someone comes it. It’s literally the same as telling someone that you’re a wealthy millionaire who will marry someone if they sleep with you. It’s a lie. It’s a trick. It’s a shitty thing to do even if it’s not illegal. It makes you a shitty person.
Also, anyone else notice how completely fucked up it is that OF talked about women in terms of “value” – the more valuable sex regarding reproduction? A) Cissexism. B) People with uteruses aren’t commodities with price tags. People aren’t “valuable” in an objectification way. It’s a gross way to look at the world and only increases the idea that sex is a commodity that you can “purchase” with the right tricks.
@ hellkell
I’ve had PUAs pester me even after I waved my ring in their face. Who knew that was punishment for the crime of going out for drinks while married?
I’m still boggled at the insistence that
1) developing a method by which men get to have beautiful, hot women (in some unspecified capacity) is a pressing need in the world.
2) it’s the responsibility of feminists to develop it.
3) once it’s established, there will be no more problematic behaviour from men, because they’ll all be content and happy now that they’re nicely paired up with beautiful, hot women.
But it’s feminists who are irrational. Okay, then.
Now I’m picturing the signs that would be on the doors of bars and clubs in the PUA dream world.
NO MARRIED LADIES unless you’re looking for an affair and aren’t very picky.
MARRIED MEN WELCOME.
Ah! The dudes who think “I’m married” is no reason at all to stop. Raise your hands if you’ve heard “he doesn’t have to know” or something equally gross after a solid refusal.
My older sister didn’t even try to look around in such places before PUA-like folks started approaching her. And she’s had at least two boyfriends who not only act a lot like typical PUAs, but also treated her like garbage during those relationships she had with them. In fact, the last boyfriend she had pretty much negged her throughout the relationship and threatened to break up with her every other day.
So yeah, they don’t stick to themselves in my family’s experience.
@Fibinachi:
“Someone once told me something I like to imagine I have taken to heart.
This person, fictional though it was, said this:
“You know? The best way to fake being popular and likable… is to be popular and likable”
What do people do… who want to be… with beautiful women?
Well.”
O: Again, actually Game circles teach exactly the same thing. Who knew?
“First of all, they define “be with”. Merely be in the same room as? Talk to? Possess as a trophy? Have as a friend? Tenderly hold beneath moonlight shining on from above as waves lap against an enternal shore? When you say “Be with” do you mean “be in”, but you’re trying to be polite?
That kind of thing.”
O: I’ve never hidden my sexual attraction triggers; that was the whole point of telling that young lady years ago that I wasn’t sexually attracted to her, in plain and blunt language, so she couldn’t misunderstand me.
“Then they take a breath and think about their motivations. Why do they want to be “be with” beautiful women? Is it to brag about it? Is it because it’s fun? Is it because you can have more good times with someone who is beautiful? Is it because they’re trying to prove themselves virile and powerfully male by subduing specially worthy prey in accordance to an ideal of beauty as a female ressource to be fought over by men? Is it because they want to dazzle “HB10″ with their peacocky sparkles?”
O: Maybe it’s simply because that’s what they want? *shrugs*
By the way, I’ve never made much of the whole “HB10″ thing. My take is that Dimes are exceedingly rare to find and not practical for Men to spend much time looking for. Better to focus on the 6s-9s.
“Because in our world, it stops there. It’s… it’s the end at that point. Beauty is a good, wonderful thing that can add spark and charm to many a fantastic endeavor (And without a mug as devilishly handsome as mine, no one would appreciate my internet wit). That may have been a coy joke.”
O: Point taken…
“In your world, though, and this is why we consistently disparage you, you make beauty into some kind of resource. It sounds as if you speak of farming and raising beautiful people to be enjoyed like a fine vintage of wine. You speak of encounters with women as if they’re nary but flighty interchangeable things you pluck from and sip, then let go, based on some sense of their fleeting blush youth and grace.
That isn’t, really, as such, totally and completely bad.”
O: You and the rest of the moralistic notions are noted, but have no place insofar as human mating is concerned. Beauty (and its male equivalent) is a resource indeed, often a fungible one, in part because it is so limited in supply. Hollywood and the various glamor industries wouldn’t make billions of dollars a year if this wasn’t true.
It just makes everything else you say seem so… hollow. You don’t give a shit about anything else, man, and it shows. It’s fine if you don’t – go ahead – but don’t pretend that you do.
“And, maybe, stop… Going at this entire thing as if beautiful people where a scarce resource a man must cleverly trick into bed by wit and charm and mental tricks. They’re not special prizes to be hunted down by the man with the bigger so and so and longer list of negs.”
O: I don’t have to trick anyone into bed. Negs are a very specialized method that is greatly misunderstood. And yes, desirable, attractive people of either sex, are in short supply.
“Women aren’t grapes. It’s fine to have standards, but do you see where those very standards turn into weird, confusing labyrinthine justifications? Women can do so and so! She can get laid on a one night stand! A man will never have valid enthusiastic consent unless he’s hot! Without blasting someone with negs, I don’t stand a chance! Online dating doesn’t work for men because they don’t get unsolicited messages (!) ! Feminists won’t tell me how to bang beautiful people!
Well… No. Beautiful people are *people*. You sleep with them the same way you sleep with everyone.”
O: Dvar was the one who mentioned one night stands, not me. Jon Millward and OKC have nothing to gain by putting out the studies they did. Indeed, if anything, they stand to lose a lot, because guys will see that and rightly think, what the heck am I doing this for if it doesn’t even work most of the time?
My personal standards don’t have anything to do with any of this, and it is erroneous for you to attempt to make a linkage in an effort to personalize the discussion. I have a very good way of remaining objective about things, which can and does, yes, come off as “cold” to others (I was “Iceman” when I was a kid).
“If you have standards – fine. That’s why you said to that girl “Hey, I’m not interested in sleeping with you”. Or, well, you said a hurtful variation thereof in a room full of people to showcase your dominance and put your friends (the fuckers!) in their place for daring to set you up with someone who didn’t tickle your fancy.”
O: This, after several months of taking low and hoping she (and they) would get the point…but no. I learned from that experience (and others!) that a closed mouth don’t get fed. Speak up, Black Man.
Speak. Up.
“But don’t waste anyone’s type by pretending it’s anything more or less than it is:
You’re upset and angry that sometimes, people make choices that don’t involve you.
Come on.
Get over it.”
O: Again – I couldn’t care less what others do. Make of that what you will, but I have nothing to gain from lying to you or anyone else here.
O.
@ hellkell
My favorite response was “I don’t mind”. Thanks for the info, dude, but do I look like I care?
“Beauty (and its male equivalent)”
AS: Clearly the word “beautiful” can never apply to any man. More wise sentiments from O.
AS.
Cassandra: I’ve heard that one too. Clearly the Game Masters are not teaching originality in the face of a no. It won’t change my answer, but it would amuse me.
Although I have to admit that it’s less ridiculous than “I don’t mind” in response to “I’m a lesbian”, which also happens.
Pecunium: the blockquote monsters, they are hungry tonight.
And hell YES to what you said about why PUA is repulsive.
RE: thebionicmommy
Aw. That’s the sweetest thing I’ve heard in quite a while. Thank you!
RE: Argenti
Thanks much! And I actually plan to use the travels for story research… not for M.D. (Silver Fern is pretty much other-dimensional New Zealand, so I use my travels THERE for that), but for Reverend Alpert. (Also, I need to see Georgia for Biff’s childhood stories.)
RE: Ally S
When I was 11, I remember using copious amounts of that because I felt that liquid soap wasn’t as effective because it was liquidy and not creamy like the other body wash I had been used to using. I was very, very wrong.
I just winced and went, “Ohhhhh!” you know, like guys watching crotch shots in America’s Funniest Home Videos. You poor dumbass!
RE: Obsidian Files
O: Yes, but Feminists are the main ones complaining. In light of that, and since they are Women themselves, it would be really nice if they could offer solutions for guys in this regard. I’m not even talking about everything from A to Z; just something.
*looks back at the pages and pages of thread* We have been. You just don’t like the answers you’re getting, or insist they’re not workable. I don’t honestly feel you’re looking for advice; you’re looking for validation of your worldview, which you’re not going to get here.
O: Indeed – and none of them dealing with the question of sociosexual relationship concerns and issues of straight Men – which was what I was talking about, and I think you knew that…
*sigh* You asked for a movement’s focus on MEN, not the sociosexual relationship of straight men, which is a much, much narrower focus, but fine, whatever. I can’t think of a rights movement devoted to that, because frankly, I can’t think of ANY movement focused on the sociosexual relationship of ANYONE. Sexual RIGHTS, yes, repealing sodomy laws and tightening up rape laws and such, but not the sociosexual relationship. Can you?
Cassandra: you’re right, they don’t consider lesbianism an impediment. They really must think their penis is magic.
We are so going out to practice misandry when I manage to get to the Bay Area.
@GRB:
“I missed this at the time because I was, at best, skimming those tedious walls of text before I started skipping past them altogether. I had decided that I wasn’t gonna feed the troll anymore, but this one is pretty revealing, actually.”
O: Thank you.
“OF objects to the scandal of ugly women daring to talk to him as if he could possibly be even slightly interested in them. Not the behavior itself, it seems, as he thinks that it’s just a “mating strategy” so long as they haven’t committed the sin of being “God-awful ugly or old”.”
O: It certainly wouldn’t hurt…
“Correspondingly, women should be totes delighted if an “attractive” man catcalls them, though it doesn’t seem that they should be permitted to establish what is “attractive” for the purposes of this discussion, nor should they be permitted to find catcalling offensive or disturbing just on its face.”
O: I have never said anything such thing.
“The key is that because he doesn’t mind when women talk to him (so long as they are not “God-awful ugly or old” mind you) he finds it incomprehensible that women could find it bothersome when some entitled asshole forces his way into their day, no matter what said asshole looks like.”
O: Actually, I support the criminalization of street harassment, and have said so several times throughout this thread.
Perhaps you missed it?
O.
Given their association with SATC I guess cosmos are the drink of choice for misandrists, huh? The bar at the W does a good one.
More and more, as I read this, I am immensely relieved that I seem to have dropped off most mens’ radar once I hacked off our tits and hair. I haven’t had to deal with PUA since.
Also, random and off-topic, but I has a slight sad, guys. After being off hormones for months, my body’s really reverting now. Bye bye, body hair. :( I will miss you terribly.
Hey, I missed a soap discussion! I love the Pre de Provence soaps, when I’m feeling indulgent.
I think we should start a funny, mocking but educational campaign for young women to inoculate them against the more insidious aspects of “Game.” Not to stop these guys from getting lucky, just so that women know exactly what is going on and are less likely to be manipulated by the BS. They may still choose to sleep with them; FSM knows I have overlooked some pretty inept pickup attempts in my day just because I wanted to have some fun with a guy who I thought was cute.
Like maybe a series of cartoons.
We could have installments on gaslighting, negging, peacocking, interminably trolling feminist websites that don’t want them there to complain about their/other dudes’ sad boners, etc.
Okay, more fun wedding events for me; back to LA tomorrow evening.
Oooo Alpert! Loved the protective spirit under the bed (I refuse to call it a monster when there are human monsters)
People are not fungible.
Beauty in the discussion of people is a reference to the beauty of those people.
Beautiful people are not fungible.
How would you even arrive at that conclusion?
In what hellhole of a rationalistic, mechanistic is that a state of affairs that even approaches reality? You have got to be kidding. You are making a joke. You are taking the piss. There is a monk out back with a ladder. There is no way this is possibly something you say and mean and think.
Add if it was limited in supply how could it be fungible? Fungibility inherently improves supply because any unit can be exchanged for another unit! Beautiful people become fill in the blank blind spot in some auctioneer block if they’re fungible.
The very idea that sexually desirably people are in short supply means they cannot be merely fungible and simply interchangeable. You cannot tell me you would sleep with a mass murderer as easily as you would a saint if they looked the same. This is not… How… What?
Bees. Bees, my god.
Also, stop lying.
That study was a study of unsolicited messages received by 10 identical profiles with 10 different pictures.
No more, no less
And, in that, it even conforms to what you’d think – women receive more unsolicited attention.
That’s all.
In fact, the one message he sent to a beautiful woman that was the most attractive one he could find within three minutes was replied to, because it was thoughtful, fun and interesting. Holy shit, showcasing personality over an online dating service is possible! Unlike what you said earlier!
My god man. I know 6 pairs of people who hooked up through the internet. Okay, I admit, none of them are models, but they’re not ugly molochs.
I’m out. I can’t.. I can’t deal with this.
I know. Fictional character.
I know what negs are.
And if desirable, attractive people of either sex are in short supply, why are they fungible? It’s not actually about the beauty at all? It’s the orgasms?
Is it the notch count? this fucking fascinates me. Is there bonus points for orgasms arrived inside beautiful people? Are they worth more than others?
This makes no sense!
Then why do you keep bringing up what others do? Why do you keep talking about what you should do when others do bad things? Why do you constantly talk about how feminists should do so and so?
Stop lying.
I seriously sometimes feel like I’m coming from the wrong planet in discussions like this. Apparently I’m not from Manland, I’m from Neptune or something, because I read shit like this, about PUAs are apparently filling some deep aching need, and I just can’t connect with it at all.
My sexual concerns, in order of importance:
1. Don’t get raped.
2. If raped, try and minimize suffering as much as possible.
Everything else just seemed like gravy, as far as I was concerned. Is this not a thing other men have to constantly take into account?
I’m trying to imagine my life where rape wasn’t a constant specter. My god, it sounds like a fucking paradise! Who cares if I get laid, guys, I don’t have to run my life around RAPE!
RE: Argenti
I plan to have as a running theme of that series that the supernatural “monsters” just reflect the people around them. Some of them are nastier than others.
Also, the male equivalent of beauty is beauty. Those that believe otherwise, I invite to take a good hard look at the man I’m married to.
LBT, aw no… It sucks you can’t fake body hair. I guess you could use rogaine on your chest or something.
RE: auggziliary
I also have, like, two and a half bottles of testosterone left, if I want to go back on. I admit, not that my body’s mega-reverting, it is tempting. I liked the shape it gave my body, and the body hair. The effects on my sex life weren’t half bad either.
But I also wasn’t a big fan of the acne on my back, the facial hair, or the awful, AWFUL emotional effects if I wasn’t careful about my dose. (Depending on dose, I’d lose the physical ability to cry, go into a rage, or just feel plain awful.) Ach, that’s what you get when you want the in-between, I suppose… it’s always a constant juggling.
@SittieKitty”
“What do they do? Be disappointed. They aren’t entitled to sleep with beautiful women and the fact that these beautiful women don’t want to sleep with them is just life. Not giving them ideas that try to trick these women into thinking the guys are better for them/more attractive to them than they actually are is respecting women’s agency to have sex with whomever they choose.”
O: So these guys shouldn’t try to do *anything* to improve themselves? Dress better? Workout? Lose weight? Etc, et al? Am I reading that right? Or do you consider these simple things “tricks” too?
“Yes, you never said explicitly “These men are entitled to being with beautiful women.” But you did say it, that’s what that sentence above implies. It implies that these men should be able to get beautiful women if they want to.”
O: What I am saying is that they have a shot at them, IF they improve themselves and make themselves into interesting people. And since you all are deadset against Game, fine – what other method do you recommend? This far, I haven’t gotten any answers. Perhaps you’ll offer one?
“So the answer is, literally, too fucking bad for those guys. Same with anyone else who wants to “get” people who aren’t attracted to them. Too fucking bad. You aren’t entitled to sex, to being with someone, and certainly aren’t entitled to being with a particular “type” of person. If you don’t get sex and you want it – that’s too bad for you. Deal with it. Don’t try to trick people into thinking you are what they want when you’re not. It’s incredibly manipulative and dishonest. And it’s where the idea of tricking women into sleeping with someone comes it. It’s literally the same as telling someone that you’re a wealthy millionaire who will marry someone if they sleep with you. It’s a lie. It’s a trick. It’s a shitty thing to do even if it’s not illegal. It makes you a shitty person.”
O: So, you are in support of my telling a young lady who my friends and whatnot kept trying to “set me up with” that I was NOT sexually attracted with her – right? Because that would be consistent with what you jus said above – right?
Also -would you agree, that a Woman who wears all manner of appliances and makeup, wigs/weaves, heels, pushup bras, etc et al, is also “tricking” Men into thinking she’s something she’s not, and that it’s a “shitty thing to do” – even if it isn’t illegal?
Yes?
O.
OF, again, women aren’t going to get turned off by you asking if they’re ok. If they’re offended and suddenly say “I’m not going to have sex with you now because you asked me if I liked it”, and she isn’t communicating, then she wasn’t worth having sex with in the first place. Seriously, when a woman freezes up or says no during sex, what are the chances that she’s actually totally enjoying it? Even if there are women like that, it’s better to be safe and NOT RAPE WOMEN just to see if they’re into that.
You want every man to have a beautiful woman? That’s not statistically going to happen, unless every woman at every age turns gorgeous and suddenly wants to date the first single man they see.
I’m getting déjà vu from this. Didn’t we already go over this like 3 pages away?
Yet another of your many laughable ideas, up there with why crime rates are falling. Have you ever read a feminist in favor of this?
I think it’s fucking stupid, you can’t legislate human decency, much as we may wish to. How would this be enforced? So many questions.
Yet another false equivalence. Do you never tire of them?
“Also -would you agree, that a Woman who wears all manner of appliances and makeup, wigs/weaves, heels, pushup bras, etc et al, is also “tricking” Men into thinking she’s something she’s not, and that it’s a “shitty thing to do” – even if it isn’t illegal?”
What makes you think women only wear makeup to attract? Again, I went over this a few pages ago. Most women do these things to express their gender, and that doesn’t mean they’re trying to attract.
Also, you seriously can’t tell if a woman is wearing heels or makeup? And what is wrong with wigs and weaves?
Oh look, it’s the same old “Making your appearance look good is deception” shit again. How fucking predictable can you be?
SPEAKING OF STATISTICS!
Anyone got any they want to see?
There’s a vast difference between makeup, heels, and weaves and “lie about who you are fundamentally,” which seems to be what game teaches.
@Argenti, if you don’t my asking, how many atheists were there? Just curious
@Fibinachi:
“People are not fungible.”
O: I never said they were.”
“Beauty in the discussion of people is a reference to the beauty of those people.”
O: OK.
“Beautiful people are not fungible.”
O: Yes, they are.
“How would you even arrive at that conclusion?”
O: Please revisit my Hollywood quote…?
“In what hellhole of a rationalistic, mechanistic is that a state of affairs that even approaches reality? You have got to be kidding. You are making a joke. You are taking the piss. There is a monk out back with a ladder. There is no way this is possibly something you say and mean and think.”
O: Please curb your morality…
“Add if it was limited in supply how could it be fungible? Fungibility inherently improves supply because any unit can be exchanged for another unit! Beautiful people become fill in the blank blind spot in some auctioneer block if they’re fungible.”
O: Again – anything that is relatively scarce is also relatively more valuable.
“The very idea that sexually desirably people are in short supply means they cannot be merely fungible and simply interchangeable. You cannot tell me you would sleep with a mass murderer as easily as you would a saint if they looked the same. This is not… How… What?”
O: Killers can and do have quite a few lovers. I wouldn’t sleep with them. that’s true, but that’s beside the point.
“Also, stop lying.”
O: About what?
“That study was a study of unsolicited messages received by 10 identical profiles with 10 different pictures.
No more, no less”
O: True.
“And, in that, it even conforms to what you’d think – women receive more unsolicited attention.
That’s all.”
O: Problem is, that OKTrends got very similar ressults with a much larger sample size, and this time all actual profiles of real people. The studies confirm each other.
“In fact, the one message he sent to a beautiful woman that was the most attractive one he could find within three minutes was replied to, because it was thoughtful, fun and interesting. Holy shit, showcasing personality over an online dating service is possible! Unlike what you said earlier!”
O: That’s *one* case, as you pointed out. But can that scale, to say, hundreds of thousands? Or even millions?
“My god man. I know 6 pairs of people who hooked up through the internet. Okay, I admit, none of them are models, but they’re not ugly molochs.”
O: 12 people out of a universe of…?
“I’m out. I can’t.. I can’t deal with this.”
O: OK.
“I know. Fictional character.”
O: ???
“I know what negs are.”
O: I didn’t dispute that you did; I was explaining what they were and that they were greatly abused.
“And if desirable, attractive people of either sex are in short supply, why are they fungible? It’s not actually about the beauty at all? It’s the orgasms?”
O: Actually both, among other things. Anything or anyone, who is in short supply, tends to be more valuable.
“Is it the notch count? this fucking fascinates me. Is there bonus points for orgasms arrived inside beautiful people? Are they worth more than others?
This makes no sense!”
O: Actually, it does have a certain logic to it. Not that I necesarily subscribe to it.
“Then why do you keep bringing up what others do? Why do you keep talking about what you should do when others do bad things? Why do you constantly talk about how feminists should do so and so?”
O: Becaue they – “they” meaning, Feminists (which includes thiss current forum) – talks about it. A lot.
So, I decided to have a dialogue about all of that…
“Stop lying.”
O: Again – what do I have to gain from lying to you or anyone else in thi forum?
Hmm?
O.
Seriously, I get tired of the whole makeup = lies crap. You can choose what you look like, who says that your “natural” appearance is the only correct way to look? Why is any change to it suddenly a sin?
OF acts like when you date a woman, she’s never ever allowed to wear makeup or push up bras or makeup again. Like the dude is “stuck” with this chick who “lied” about herself.
People are not fungible, but beautiful people are. Morality should be curbed.
Don’t get bent out of shape, OF, just using what you wrote, it’s your world view. Just get bent, OK?
“O: Killers can and do have quite a few lovers. I wouldn’t sleep with them. that’s true, but that’s beside the point.”
Um, you do realize that a lot of the didn’t know they were killers? And that if their lovers did, their lovers were pretty fucked up too?
@Hellkell:
“There’s a vast difference between makeup, heels, and weaves and “lie about who you are fundamentally,” which seems to be what game teaches.”
O: Such as…? Both are potentially maniuplative “tricks”, right? Why is it different for Women?
Please explain?
O.
Ally — 772 atheists, 1000 people checked the general “non-religious // secular box” (the rest are mostly secular humanists)
O: What I am saying is that they have a shot at them, IF they improve themselves and make themselves into interesting people. And since you all are deadset against Game, fine – what other method do you recommend? This far, I haven’t gotten any answers. Perhaps you’ll offer one?
I don’t really believe in the concept of “improving” oneself (it bothers me), and I believe that all people are intrinsically interesting to SOMEONE, but here, some methods I work.
I think it fair to say that I’m a pretty interesting dude, and I am fairly well-liked. People here like me, I have lots of friends offline, a wonderful husband… socially, I must say, I am happy. But that’s a recent development. I used to be miserable and have very few friends, even though I was apparently “normal.” How did I change?
There are a lot of components, but honestly, I feel that boiled down, I learned how to do three things:
1. like myself,
2. communicate feelings clearly
3. express empathy.
If I like myself, I see myself as worthy, so I won’t sabotage my own relationships. If I like myself, I will hopefully trust my instincts, which may warn me of toxic people. If I like myself, I won’t rely so hard on other people to build me up. Whether I get laid or not, whether I have a partner or not, it has no impact on my character, and I can feel good regardless. Relationships are more likely to start and survive if I like myself.
If I clearly communicate (I’m pretty fond of nonviolent communication), I have more likelihood of getting what I want, finding out what other people want, and getting all our needs met, without escalating conflict. Of course, some people, you just can’t communicate with, but if I like myself, I can LEAVE that relationship without needing to cast judgment on myself or someone else.
If I express empathy, care about people, I’m able to meet them halfway, because it moves me to WANT to communicate effectively. I can’t say I like you, but I care about your welfare, because you’re a person. I want you to be happy, and I hope you do get to go to Alaska or do your RV trip one day. Now, I know this will never get me into your pants, but that’s fine. Just by empathizing with you, even on as superficial a level as, “camping is fun,” I feel that my life in enriched.
These things have made my life happier, and as I’ve grown happier and more sure of myself, my relationship with my husband has improved.
Now, obviously, these three things are simple, but difficult as hell, but I don’t want to make this comment any longer. If you’d like to know more about any of these three things, and how to go about them, ask me and I’ll continue.
OF,
You cannot tell when a woman is wearing high heels?
Why would her having a weave or makeup matter anyways? People change appearance.
I went looking for pics of women wearing appliances but alas, Google image search has failed me. I tried vacuums, washing machines, blenders…it’s almost as if appliances are not a thing that women wear.
RE: Argenti
Out of curiosity, what’s the ratio of USA folk to non-USA folk? Also white to non-white? I know the stereotype of feminist/SJ circles are that they’re all white Americans, and I want to see how much Manboobz follows.
OF: most times, women are changing/enhancing their appearance independent of men. Shocking, isn’t it.
I wear makeup, and as you said, I’m married. Am I just trying to deceive my husband, or am I just a hypergamous bitch trying to trade up?
I’ll give you a hint–I do it for me.
You goofballs are trying to trick women into bed by not being yourselves. Well, a shitty, worst possible version of yourself.
I haven’t run ethnicity v country (nor do I want to deal with the FUCKING COUNTRY CODES [seriously, why is Germany DE?!])
But white on the r/mr question was just under 92% (yes we’re statistically more white than should be expected given where the responses came from) and uh…60%~ American. Then UK, Canada, Australia, and Germany, in that order.
And thank you. I fucked up the hovers on that, 2 pts for finding my error!
@Auggzillary:
“Seriously, I get tired of the whole makeup = lies crap. You can choose what you look like, who says that your “natural” appearance is the only correct way to look? Why is any change to it suddenly a sin?”
O: I didn’t say it was a “sin”; I said that it was equally manipulative, because it is based on that which Men in general most desire in Women, which are cues to youth and beauty/health. Very interesting how much all of you (and other Women, to be frank) are so adamant in your denials in this regard; as if ONLY Men can “trick” people into doing thus and so; never Women.
Hmm…
“OF acts like when you date a woman, she’s never ever allowed to wear makeup or push up bras or makeup again. Like the dude is “stuck” with this chick who “lied” about herself.”
O: Actually, in this age of cometic surgery, it is a concern, especially if the guy in question has designs on a long term mate. There was a very interesting story in the news, I think it was last year, of an Asian couple where the Woman had cosmetic surgery prior to meeting her hubbie, and never disclosed this to him; the hubbie, thinking that her beauty would be passed on to their baby, which they had, found out about the cosmetic surgery and was very, very upset about it. Clearly, she had deceived him, and he sought legal damages.
Very interesting case…
“Um, you do realize that a lot of the didn’t know they were killers? And that if their lovers did, their lovers were pretty fucked up too?”
O: Yes.
@Hellkell:
“People are not fungible, but beautiful people are. Morality should be curbed.”
O: You take note well…
“Don’t get bent out of shape, OF, just using what you wrote, it’s your world view. Just get bent, OK?”
O: I’m sorry, I don’t drink…
@Ally S:
“Oh look, it’s the same old “Making your appearance look good is deception” shit again. How fucking predictable can you be?”
O: Quite; please see my response above to Auggzillary…
@Auggzillary:
“What makes you think women only wear makeup to attract?”
O: I didn’t say they did…
“Again, I went over this a few pages ago. Most women do these things to express their gender, and that doesn’t mean they’re trying to attract.”
O: Most Women also do it to attract members of the opposite sex. Why is that fact so unsettling to you?
“Also, you seriously can’t tell if a woman is wearing heels or makeup? And what is wrong with wigs and weaves?”
O: All of them are presenting a misleading indication of the youth, health and beauty of the Woman in question, things that are very important to Men. They deceive the Man into thinking that the Woman is healthier/younger than she actually is. That a Man can tell that a Woman is wearing a weave, or heels or makeup, that he may not have a problem with it or may indeed love it, doesn’t change the fact that she is giving a false impression of who she is, and on that measure is no better than the PUAs you are all excoriating.
Very convincing argument…
@Hellkell:
“Yet another of your many laughable ideas, up there with why crime rates are falling. Have you ever read a feminist in favor of this?”
O: Not yet; but what I have heard, just the other day, wa a guy talking about hearing a radio show discussin the street harassment issue, and that where he lived they were considering passing laws against it.
“I think it’s fucking stupid, you can’t legislate human decency, much as we may wish to. How would this be enforced? So many questions.”
O: Indeed…it promises to be one heck of a social experiment. Besides, sexual harassment laws are on the books, so it’s not like there’s no precedent. Seems like the next logical step…
@Auggzillary:
“OF, again, women aren’t going to get turned off by you asking if they’re ok.”
O: That’ not quite the experience of at least some Men…
“If they’re offended and suddenly say “I’m not going to have sex with you now because you asked me if I liked it”, and she isn’t communicating, then she wasn’t worth having sex with in the first place. Seriously, when a woman freezes up or says no during sex, what are the chances that she’s actually totally enjoying it? Even if there are women like that, it’s better to be safe and NOT RAPE WOMEN just to see if they’re into that.”
O: OK.
“You want every man to have a beautiful woman?”
O: I don’t recall making any such statement.
“That’s not statistically going to happen, unless every woman at every age turns gorgeous and suddenly wants to date the first single man they see.”
O: I don’t disagree…
O.
It’s funny, you can tell it’s him commenting without even scrolling down just because his comments are so long that the sidebar changes dramatically.
Oh damn, answers to lots of people and I lost the lot! Never mind, this one survived the WordPress Monster:
@thebionicmummy: ‘I doubt that. Besides, someone doesn’t have to ask in the exact words “May I insert my penis into your vagina?”’
In the right circumstances (like playing OTT formal in a giggly way) that would be really funny and not a buzzkill at all.
Asked and fucking answered. Improving your health and appearance is not the same as Game. Which is what everyone’s been telling you this whole damn thread, and every single other thread you’ve been in.
Um, yes? I don’t really know what you’re talking about here because I didn’t read the whole thread. I’m assuming that you did it privately and in confidence and in a sensitive straight-forward manner? Like, pulling her aside and being like, “Hey, I appreciate that we’re being set up, but I’m really not interested in you. Sorry.” ??
Actually I’m assuming the opposite because of how everyone else is reacting to it, I actually assume you were an asshole and did it in front of everyone in a mean way.
And changing your health/appearance =/= lying about who you are personality-wise. One is where makeup, wigs, good clothing, ect comes in, the other is where Game comes in.
Germany is DE because the German word for Germany is Deutchland.
Ah, the good old “PUA is just guys learning how to dress better and workout, why do feminists have a problem with it???” tactic. You’re trying to deflect people’s complaints by making PUA sound innocent and harmless. But that argument falls apart. People aren’t complaining about men dressing nicer or working out, they’re complaining about the the blurring of consent, the manipulative power games, the objectification and presentation of sex with women as some conquest to be achieved. They’re complaining about the promotion of the idea that a man’s desire to have sex with a woman is more important than the woman’s time, physical space or desire to be left alone.
If PUA was just fashion and confidence tips, nobody would be complaining about it, but it’s not. It is, at best, repackaged self-help tips wrapped up in a shitload of misogyny, pseudoscience and unhealthy attitudes.
@Auggzillary:
“OF,
You cannot tell when a woman is wearing high heels?”
O: Certainly. What does that have to do with what I’ve said?
“Why would her having a weave or makeup matter anyways? People change appearance.”
O: The reason is why; to let you and the other ladies here tell it, it cannot be because of their desire to attract or retain (in the case of Hellkell) a mate. Nope, nothing to see here, move along…
@Cassandra:
“I went looking for pics of women wearing appliances but alas, Google image search has failed me. I tried vacuums, washing machines, blenders…it’s almost as if appliances are not a thing that women wear.”
O: *rimshot*
@Hellkell:
“OF: most times, women are changing/enhancing their appearance independent of men. Shocking, isn’t it.”
O: Not entirely; in any event, this is inconsistent with EvoPsych…
“I wear makeup, and as you said, I’m married. Am I just trying to deceive my husband, or am I just a hypergamous bitch trying to trade up?”
O: Neither; it could be that you’re trying to retain a mate…
“I’ll give you a hint–I do it for me.”
O: If you say so…
“You goofballs are trying to trick women into bed by not being yourselves. Well, a shitty, worst possible version of yourself.”
O: If I lose weight, get in shape, get a makeover, learn how to talk to/approach Women, develop other aspects of myself, etc et al, am I no longer myself?
@Argenti:
“But white on the r/mr question was just under 92% (yes we’re statistically more white than should be expected given where the responses came from) and uh…60%~ American. Then UK, Canada, Australia, and Germany, in that order.”
O: Thank you for this most interesting and insightful information! Sounds like there’s not much of a difference racially, between you guys and the MRA groups you like to excoriate.
I know, I know, you guys aren’t racists – we’ll see about that, in due course…
O.
If he already fucking knows, and he is okay with that, then he isn’t being deceived. Do you even know what deception is?
False. It’s based on beauty standards, which are exagerated notions of symmetry and often fucked up beyond reason. It’s based on patriarchal notions. Not based on what “most men” are attracted to. Men and women are attracted to a wide variety of things, and beauty standards have a very small narrow focus.
Also, beauty is NOT a commodity, and it’s not a resource, and it’s not a commerce based system. I fundamentally disagree with that notion and that’s something that I think most people here do also. That’s why you’re finding people here disagreeing with you, because most people here think of people interacting with other people as being people, not being a trade. The idea of exchanging beauty for sex/whatever doesn’t enter into most people’s description of relationships and interactions. If you can’t understand that, if you don’t change your view, there’s literally no way that you can come to an agreement with anyone other than trolls on this website and there’s no point in you even trying to talk to us.
Yup, and from a guy young enough to be my son. In the street, no less. I told him “He already does,” and kept walking.
I notice that creepshite doesn’t seem to grasp the idea that different people have different ideals of beauty, either. It’s like beautiful people are a subset that everyone in the world agrees on, and in the women’s case, are selfishly and cruelly withholding themselves from the poor ugly dudes who make up the vast majority of the world’s menz. One would almost suspect that other human beings aren’t actually people at all iln creepshite’s alleged mind. One would even think he’s never heard conversations like “X is so hot!” “Nah, doesn’t do anything for me.” Two people having different tastes, impossible!
Oh the joy of being beautiful to the one person who matters, and is beautiful to me.
@me
“If he already fucking knows, and he is okay with that, then he isn’t being deceived. ”
And, of course, making yourself look good isn’t deception in the first place. It’s simply a way of changing your appearance slightly. It’s not like you jumping into another skin.