Long Weekend Open Thread
Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
Posted on July 5, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 1,365 Comments.
@Auggziliary
I’m not trying to be a jerk here. And also, I should probably point out that I’m not Native American. It’s just that people have this tendency to talk about Native Americans in terms of their artifacts and their history in a way that treats them like historical curiosities, rather than as living peoples still suffering from the effects of colonization and racism. Depending on where in the Midwest you are, the people whose history you’re learning about may still be around.
If I seem defensive, it’s because there are people who do shit like drive onto reservations to gawk, or complain that the Native Americans they meet wearing jeans and tee-shirts aren’t “real Indians”, or treat sacred ceremonies as entertainment, or would rather buy a dreamcatcher at a tourist trap than even go to a museum like the ones you mentioned. I assumed you didn’t mean any of those things when you said “Native American stuff”, but it still sounded weird.
Falconer, I was confused when I saw him saying OF and talking about street harassment.
““OF: it’s not hard for me to grok, but let’s face it, you are not exactly honest.”
O: Really? How so?
O.”
You: “For the record, if OF was in fact harassed and just got laughed at, that’s not right either. See, OF? I don’t hardly know you, and can’t fucking stand what I do know, but I can have empathy for you.”
There’s something here that’s certainly shaped like an argument, but it makes no sense.
Hmmm….
Because unlike you, I can read and understand what’s written. You do know we can scroll up, or are you a goldfish with no memory every time you post?
And it seems you didn’t prove your point on what I said about porn. The dissapproval of women sure as hell isn’t stopping that particular train, so I guess you’re wrong again. A rather permanent state of being for you that must get old.
This is also the world I live in, and it makes me very, very glad that men like OF are in the minority.
No, human beings are, for the most part, human beings. “Game” is offensive because it views human beings as simple machines and focuses not on developing authentic human interaction but on finding the magic fuck button and hitting it as often as possible.
What would I offer as advice to someone who wanted to find a life companion? Exactly what I did actually offer to one of my coworkers who went from legitimately creepy (first definition) to happily married and now expecting a kid. Treat women like human beings with interests, personalities, goals and desires and try to meet as many as you can and spend time with them without trying to get in their pants right away. Meet enough and focus on having a good experience in the now without trying to force it toward his intended goal along his pre-established timeline and some of them will end up wanting a second and third interaction. Eventually one of them is going to want to keep it going and build it into a relationship, and there is (spoiler alert) NO MAGIC FORMULA FOR MAKING THAT HAPPEN.
He needed lots of support and practice in his search, not to mention pointed feedback and help understanding interpersonal communication because he hadn’t done a lot of it. He sure wasn’t going to get that from the pick up ‘community’ (he tried and it only deepened his despair about his lack of success), but it is the kind of thing that female friends are often able and willing to provide on a constant basis, though not when they feel they are being ‘gamed’ constantly.
@auggziliary:
Now I’m confused.
Who wrote this post, if not Obsidian Files? I certainly didn’t, I was loading plates.
@GRB:
“See, I was going to try to read some of that wall and respond to it, but I stopped dead on this one.”
O: That doesn’t surprise me…
“So the end justifies the means? If one person ends up not being disgusted and offended and upset by it, and what? talks to you or agrees to go have a coffee, that justifies being disgusting and offensive to all the rest and upsetting them?”
O: Not necessarily. But the truth of the matter is, that there *are* SOME Women who respond favorably to being approached on the street cold, and that approach to one Woman, could very well be “harassment” to another – hence why I am very interested in seeing what happens when street harassment is officially outlawed, because I’m interested to see how the cases are going to be hashed out in court…
“You clearly didn’t bother to read the thread on the discussion about that definition of creepy, because you would have noticed that we got to a place where we were pretty nuanced and empathetic about the lesser ‘unwittingly’ creepy (deserving of empathy and some gentle reeducation) versus the more problematic ‘couldn’t give a damn if it does make people uncomfortable or actually gets off on it’ variety (deserving of a big fuck off).”
O: Admittedly, I missed that discussion. Could you please post up the link? I’d very much like to read it…
In the meantime, let me ask you, please: which “half” of these guys is the bigger one – the clueless ones, or the douchey ones? Just curious.
““Harassing people is wrong because it doesn’t get them into bed with you” is part of that second variety of creepy because it demonstrates that you don’t give a fuck about anyone but yourself, and about others as means to pleasing yourself.”
O: I know, and from your point of view as a Woman, it is completely understandable that you would feel that way. Such a view is abhorrent to many Women for the same reason – because it is a “tell” that the Man in question is likely not to ne understanding of her needs and may lack empathy and so forth. Trust me, I get it.
“Harassing people is wrong because it is wrong. If you don’t get that, why should anyone here care about anything else you spew out?”
O: They shouldn’t. But that doesn’t mean that the issues they address aren’t valid.
Crimes like murder is “wrong” but unless and until there were strong deterrents against it put into place, it merely being “wrong” didn’t stop offenders from offending. The cost of doing so, i.e., being locked and possibly even being executed, is what brings down murder rates (here in Philly, where I live and am from, the murder rate is at its lowest point in some 45 years – we just recently built a new prison :) )…
One should learn to curb their “morality”, because often, more often than not, it often gets them into trouble. Adopting a bit more of a utilitarian approach to life actually solves more problems.
O.
Half of the definition, not half of the people.
@Obnoxious
Quite a few, because they’re rather appropriate in this context.
Still having trouble seeing why we detest you?
I love how you 1) universalize one personal anecdote in order to make a claim about society as a whole and 2) think that your anecdote is an example of misandry. You have every right to not be with someone for whatever reason (including lack of sexual attraction), but you really shouldn’t expect anything but disdain for bluntly saying that to someone in front of so many people. I wonder what those people who called you out would have said if you asked them if it’s okay to not date someone because of a lack of sexual attraction.
You are a raging dipshit. If a woman liked the approach, why would she press charges?
Why on earth do you think street harassment is going to b outlawed? Even if it is, it’ll probably be treated just like rape, as in not at all. Don’t worry, you assholes will still get away with everything.
Crime’s been going down in the States since 1990.
Meaning what? You say something utterly offensive and I should just give you a pass and continue parsing your logorrhea? No. You will get called on your shit. You do not demonstrate good faith and good will and do not get the benefit since there is no doubt.
Yeah, you get it and you hate it. How dare the bitches want decent treatment?
It is in this very thread that you are currently polluting. Go to the top and read.
Emilygoddess, yeah I understand now. I didn’t mean it like that. I am actually interested in those museums because I like history, but I know that it’s stupid and rude to treat it like a trend or just a tourist thing.
I’m like 5% Sioux(my grandpa was like 25%), and my family likes Native American history, since its kind of like a family history, but only in that one grandfather’s side. I didn’t mean just buying dream catchers and arrow heads, I meant actually learning about them in non touristy ways.
I look super white btw, so I don’t consider myself Native American at all. Plus none of us living family members have actually experienced prejudice obviously, since we all look really white(except for a few of my friends thinking my dad is southeast Asian). I do like learning about our family’s “story”, but only part of it deals with Native American culture, so we still do talk a bit about it.
GRB: heaven forfend that OF should look anything up himself! Shit, his typing fingers haven’t fallen off typing his glurge, he can do a keyword search.
@OF
I think we can all agree it’s men who suffer the most from the current state of prostitution in the US. *gag*
I literally LOL’d.
And the award for “Understatement Of The Year” goes to…
(Seriously, dude, did you miss where someone linked to one of your interactions on that blog last time you were here, and we all had a good LOL?)
I have a dead serious question, too: why is this our problem?
What makes you think you’re entitled to that? Why do you think you get to bumble in, lay your pet topic on the table, and whine when we don’t respond the way you want? Do you treat everyone that way, or just (people you’re assuming are) women?
LOL, the
lurkersblogmaster supports you in email.It’s almost like gendered stereotypes are bullshit! I feel like there’s a movement trying to address that sort of thing, but I can’t think of the name…
OMFG, I can’t believe how often we have to tell you idiots, you don’t have to say “may I?” or get a notarized contract or whatever straw man you’re trotting out today. If you don’t know how to make sure you have consent without breaking the mood, you need to step up your dirty talk game.
ROMANCE NOVELS ARE FANTASIES, YOU CREEPY, RAPE-EXCUSING SHITSTAIN.
I call bullshit. Obsidian, you are not a utilitarian, you are a poser and an asshole.
Start with Bentham or Mill and either way you get to the wrong place. Harrassing strangers on the street will create massive negative content (well documented by the many hundreds of women and even men who share their stories about being subjected to such treatment) in exchange for the hypothetical potential of one small bit of positive content (a date).
Unless and only if you define positive content (happiness) as getting away with harassing and upsetting people because you are a creep who enjoys making people unhappy.
(Another spoiler, you are a troll so of course that’s what you enjoy)
So, you use terminology relating to philosophical positions you know little about and understand even less = poser.
You have admitted you are perfectly happy to make others miserable for your own edification and enjoyment = asshole.
“It’s almost like gendered stereotypes are bullshit! I feel like there’s a movement trying to address that sort of thing, but I can’t think of the name…”
I know! I know! It’s the MEN’S HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT! Dedicated to eradicating sexism by perpetuating the notion that men are inherently inclined to rape and the notion that women are horrible in pretty much every single way imaginable!
Yeah, that movement.
Off to make brunch! Eggs, sausage, cinnamon toast, and the tears of men who want mommy to make it all better.
But enilygoddess, tell it to the bazillion dollar romance novel industry! Jesus, just because guys like OF can’t separate fantasy from reality… more nice things we can’t have thanks to jagoffs like this.
^emilygoddess. that’ll teach me to type without my glasses on.
Falconer, You pointed out that OF should log off before socking. I was going along with that by using that as evidence of OF lying, since he asked.
@GRB:
“No, human beings are, for the most part, human beings.”
O: No, human beings are indeed cost/benefit calculators and that includes most if not all the people reading this, right now.
““Game” is offensive because it views human beings as simple machines and focuses not on developing authentic human interaction but on finding the magic fuck button and hitting it as often as possible.”
O: Game is a mating strategy, of which there are many; Game is only the most recent. Humanity and everything else that is alive has mating strategies. Many of you here have cats, and you can best believe that they too have mating strategies.
As for your notion about Game being “inauthentic” and the like, actually you’re problem is with EvoPsych, since it is there that we learn about the fact that Deception, for example, is not only seen thoughout the animal kingdom but is also highly prevelant among both human males and females and both use it to varying degrees when it comes to mating. Every time a Woman, for example, gets “done” up to hit the clubs, etc, she is engaging in an act of Deception, because she is giving an impression about her reproductive viability to potential suitors that may be true. In the Black community, this takes the form of false fingernails, “Apple Bottom” jeans, hairweaves, false eyelashes, etc et al.
“What would I offer as advice to someone who wanted to find a life companion? Exactly what I did actually offer to one of my coworkers who went from legitimately creepy (first definition) to happily married and now expecting a kid. Treat women like human beings with interests, personalities, goals and desires and try to meet as many as you can and spend time with them without trying to get in their pants right away. Meet enough and focus on having a good experience in the now without trying to force it toward his intended goal along his pre-established timeline and some of them will end up wanting a second and third interaction. Eventually one of them is going to want to keep it going and build it into a relationship, and there is (spoiler alert) NO MAGIC FORMULA FOR MAKING THAT HAPPEN.”
O: Well, first off, let me congratulate the happy couple and their impeding new edition. Second, please see above – all living things have mating strategies, whether we know of them, like them, or believe (in) them, this is true. Strategies exist because they assist living things solve problems – in this case, the adaptive problems of mating. Both human males and females have their mating strategies as well.
Third, I have never personally been a fan of the “fast seduction” schools of pickup, mainly because of security and STD concerns on my part (there is a such thing as a “crazy girl”, and STDs are a concern in the Black community in a way that it isn’t elsewhere in the American population).
Fourth, and your friend aside – if you will kindly go back to my personal account of the senior prom, you will see that what I said actually aligns with what you’re saying – that, sure, you’re likely to wind up with *someone* eventually – but what if that someone isn’t attractive to you? See, this is a very important question that many people don’t address directly, and I am glad that Mystery did; his book, The Mystery Method, has as its subtitle: How to Get BEAITUFUL Women Into Bed. This is very important.
“He needed lots of support and practice in his search, not to mention pointed feedback and help understanding interpersonal communication because he hadn’t done a lot of it. He sure wasn’t going to get that from the pick up ‘community’ (he tried and it only deepened his despair about his lack of success), but it is the kind of thing that female friends are often able and willing to provide on a constant basis, though not when they feel they are being ‘gamed’ constantly.”
O: I would have to respectfully disagree with you, because I’ve seen it happen firsthand; that your friend had a bad experience, for which I truly am sorry about and for, does not negate the whole of the good that the pickup community has and is doing. As for female friends…well, as you might imagine, I have some pointed views about that as well. Indeed, part of the problem I discussed in my personal life about that young lady who liked me, was due in large part to “female friends” trying to push her off onto me. It’s been my personal experience, and that of the many guys I’ve met in the years since, that more often than not, “female friends” cannot help guys reliably get Women with whom to date and the like, or at least not the Women said guys actually want to be with in any event.
O.
I think OF just admitted that porn movies are an exact representation of the kind of sex he would like. I mean, it’s a multi-billion dollar industry…
This is at least the third time you’ve complained about lack of empathy from women – specifically from women. Why do you think you’re entitled to have women, specifically, soothe your bruised ego?
Of course it works! It reminds women that they are under the constant scrutiny of men, and that men could do violence to them at any moment. It’s actually quite effective at those things.
I notice you failed to address the “having empathy” part…
Men aren’t cable of empathy? That is some grade-A misandry right there.
“the whole of the good that the pickup community has and is doing.”
Please don’t make anyone spit their coffee. It’s the least you can do.
@GRB:
“I call bullshit. Obsidian, you are not a utilitarian, you are a poser and an asshole.”
O: *shrugs*
“Start with Bentham or Mill and either way you get to the wrong place. Harrassing strangers on the street will create massive negative content (well documented by the many hundreds of women and even men who share their stories about being subjected to such treatment) in exchange for the hypothetical potential of one small bit of positive content (a date).”
O: Are you saying that *no one* met on the street via a cold approach on the part of the guy? And, are you saying that said Woman would find such an approach attractive, while another would find it as “harassment”? Even if your notion of a small number of these instances is true, the point is made – what one Woman considers attractive, the other may consider “harassment”. Which is why, again, I am quite eager to see what happens when street harassment is made illegal…
“Unless and only if you define positive content (happiness) as getting away with harassing and upsetting people because you are a creep who enjoys making people unhappy.”
O: I don’t do such things.
“(Another spoiler, you are a troll so of course that’s what you enjoy)”
O: *more shrugging*
“So, you use terminology relating to philosophical positions you know little about and understand even less = poser.”
O: Wait, I have to hold a PhD in philosophy before I’m allowed to say that I take a more utilitarian position on life? Really?
“You have admitted you are perfectly happy to make others miserable for your own edification and enjoyment = asshole.”
O: Yawn. Curb your #Outrage, please…
O.
“As for your notion about Game being “inauthentic” and the like, actually you’re problem is with EvoPsych, since it is there that we learn about the fact that Deception, for example, is not only seen thoughout the animal kingdom but is also highly prevelant among both human males and females and both use it to varying degrees when it comes to mating. Every time a Woman, for example, gets “done” up to hit the clubs, etc, she is engaging in an act of Deception, because she is giving an impression about her reproductive viability to potential suitors that may be true. In the Black community, this takes the form of false fingernails, “Apple Bottom” jeans, hairweaves, false eyelashes, etc et al.”
Maybe women like the way they look? What about tomboys? Or lesbians? Or women who doll themselves up when they’re not looking for a date? Or trans* people? Or dudes that don’t give a shit about that stuff? Or people like me who just like looking good, and already have a boyfriend?
Also, holy shit that’s racist. I didn’t realize only black people got fake nails, hair extensions, showed off their asses, and wore fake eye lashes.
I’m not reading this whole comment thread, ‘cos it’s long. Just wanted to relate that the wedding was lovely. My first cousin once removed, who is about a year away from earning her PhD in Epidemiology so that she can work in the public health field, was absolutely lovely. She’s always been cool, but has matured into a truly impressive person. Her husband is … comfortable but not wealthy.
The best part? She’s 5’10”. He’s 5’8″. And they’re adorable together.
I see O’s here. That makes me really not want to read the whole comment thread. :D
“How to Get BEAITUFUL Women Into Bed. This is very important.”
BEAITUFUL.
Ah, yes the good that the PUA community is doing… I know I always enjoy seeing their food and clothing clothing drives at Christmas time. And their constant fundraising for those in need, mostly men, but that’s OK at least they’re…
Oh wait. I meant the constant harassment and rape apologia.
Re: “Native American stuff”
1/8 Northern Cheyenne here, Granddad lived on the rez, Dad was an activist currently enjoying the hospitality of the
occupying armyU.S. federal government. Me, I can still speak some of the language and I won’t make an idiot of myself when attending a ceremony, but I’ve been away from it for a long while now, so take that for what it gives you.Lots of folk on or recently off the rez find the term “Native American” condescending and insulting. “Indian” gets used more often (I have no explanation, really, other than long usage) but almost as bad. It’s like referring to a French or German or Spanish person as a European. Correct as far as it goes but it betrays a kind of willful ignorance, especially about national identity and pride, and a whole lot of white privilege.
In the southwest you will find a lot of Navajo, Apache and Arapaho, Colorado will offer Commanche (seriously, their pottery itself is worth a look and if you can, the cave art is way more beautiful IMHO than the Lascaux paintings!!), Montana more Cree and Cheyenne, etc., etc., etc.
All that said, most of the folk I know are more concerned with justice before the law, maintaining the History, and making a living and don’t sweat the cosmetic stuff. My Granddad’s family owned a shop where he was happy as all get out to sell dreamcatchers and beaded outfits for Barbie dolls and he didn’t care what the tourist guidebook said so long as you paid your $10 for the color version (he paid the printer almost the same but could charge twice as much as for the black and white version) and actually bought some of those pots instead of just taking pictures of them!
OF truly doesn’t care if he’s a shit human. Amazing.
@EG:
“I think OF just admitted that porn movies are an exact representation of the kind of sex he would like. I mean, it’s a multi-billion dollar industry…”
O: I have?
“This is at least the third time you’ve complained about lack of empathy from women – specifically from women. Why do you think you’re entitled to have women”
O: I don’t; I am merely making the point that often in these kinds of discussions the “empathy” is only allowed to flow in one direction, period.
“Of course it works! It reminds women that they are under the constant scrutiny of men, and that men could do violence to them at any moment. It’s actually quite effective at those things.”
O: I must beg to differ; street harassment is clearly a mating strategy, albeit a woefully inaccurate one for the most part.
“I notice you failed to address the “having empathy” part…”
O: That’s because it wasn’t part of what I wanted to say…
“Men aren’t cable of empathy? That is some grade-A misandry right there.”
O: No, that’s not what I said. What I said was that you’re more likely to more effective with guys by showing them cost/benefit analyses for doing/not doing thus and so. Again, see: the current massive drops in violent crime. Part of that is because of the strong deterrents in place for offending. Pleading to guys not to commit murder will not work.
O.
Hahaha, “cold approach.” Nice job trying to trivialize street harassment.
And the difference between harassment and non-harassment is that harassment is non-consensual. Not that hard to understand. It has nothing to do with subjective preferences.
You’re the one making that assumption, not the person you responded to. All that was implied is that you don’t fully understand and know about that philosophical position.
Nope.
No, but you keep using that word and it does not mean what you think it means. What you are talking about is not really a “utilitarian” approach, it’s just selfish and self justifying (more pop Randian if anything). But you want it to sound better than that so you use the term “utilitarian” (incorrectly) to be pretentious and to distract from the fact that you are an asshole.
That you think I am outraged by this is funny, actually. You aren’t that interesting or even that surprising. You are just one in a long, pathetic and boring line of trolls.
Gillyrosebee, I always avoid saying “Indian” because I’ve been called out on it before, and also actual Indians(from India) get really damn confused and offended(offended for the Native Americans, not themselves, I got called out by 2 indians(India ones) because they thought I was referencing how Columbus called the natives “red Indians”).
I’m not sure what to call them… I just stick with Native American if I’m referring to them as a whole, but if I know the region or tribe I’ll specify.
“Clearly”, get it? Your silly little girl brain may be too full of makeup tips to understand it, so let me mansplain it for you!
@Auggzillary:
“Maybe women like the way they look?”
O: Indeed; hard to see how or why they would put themselves through all of that if they didn’t like they look…but this doesn’t address my point…
“What about tomboys?”
O: What about them?
“Or lesbians?”
O: Again, what about them?
“Or women who doll themselves up when they’re not looking for a date?”
O: EvoPsych would hold that they are displaying their wares on the open mating market…
“Or trans* people?”
O: Don’t know enough about them to say…
“Or dudes that don’t give a shit about that stuff?”
O: All living things have mating strategies.
“Or people like me who just like looking good, and already have a boyfriend?”
O: Being already mated does not mean that seeking out additonal mating opportunities stops…
“Also, holy shit that’s racist. I didn’t realize only black people got fake nails, hair extensions, showed off their asses, and wore fake eye lashes.”
O: They aren’t; I was merely relating the topic to my particular cultural experience.
“BEAITUFUL.”
O: Ooops, made a typo, that’s what I get for typing while sitting outside…
@Hellkell:
“OF truly doesn’t care if he’s a shit human. Amazing.”
O: I’m not easily swayed by shaming tactics. They don’t work, especially coming from people who don’t know or care about me.
“Ah, yes the good that the PUA community is doing… I know I always enjoy seeing their food and clothing clothing drives at Christmas time.”
O: Perhaps they could set up a table right next to the Jezebel/Feminist/Feministing/Pandagon/Manboobz one?
“And their constant fundraising for those in need, mostly men, but that’s OK at least they’re…”
O: Again, they can ally their fundraising efforts right alongside Manboobz fundraising efforts to stop all the bloodletting violence there in Chi-town – oh, wait…
“Oh wait. I meant the constant harassment and rape apologia.”
O: PUAs aren’t your problem, and this is easily born out by prison incarceration rates. Rapists locked up in the joint aren’t former PUAs.
@GRB:
““Clearly”, get it? Your silly little girl brain may be too full of makeup tips to understand it, so let me mansplain it for you!”
O: Well, I wouldn’t put it quite that way, but if you insist…
A bit less florid next time, hmm?
“No, but you keep using that word and it does not mean what you think it means. What you are talking about is not really a “utilitarian” approach, it’s just selfish and self justifying (more pop Randian if anything). But you want it to sound better than that so you use the term “utilitarian” (incorrectly) to be pretentious and to distract from the fact that you are an asshole.”
O: Whatevs. I’m the least of your problems if you’re about stopping street harassment. I don’t do it, and never have. Instead of upbraiding me because I won’t parrot the platitudes you want to hear, you need to actually be about getting something done along these lines.
“That you think I am outraged by this is funny, actually. You aren’t that interesting or even that surprising. You are just one in a long, pathetic and boring line of trolls.”
O: Which explains why you’re still here conversing with me – riiight…
O.
@auggziliary Yeah, it’s a crap shoot sometimes. It may not have been clear, so let me be explicit about the fact that I was not calling you out, just offering more complexity! Some folk are gonna get huffy and offended (and who am I to tell them not to, really, as I can’t speak from their experience) others will calmly correct you to what they prefer, still others will shrug and let it roll off unless asked about it directly (me, pretty much). Some of us even aggressively call out those in the tribe who do the getting all huffy about it thing because it really doesn’t help anything.
Your way of handling it is pretty much what I’d do, mostly because it has the benefit of also being as close as we can get to the right thing to do these days. “Native American” is the most basically correct term to use (loosely) for the Nations as a whole (like European when referring to France, Germany and Spain at the same time). Use the Nation or tribe when you know it and be as gracious as possible when you end up with an activist and start getting lectured (I promise you that though solidarity is shown when facing the world, tribal folk call each other on that crap constantly in private).
@Ally S:
“Hahaha, “cold approach.” Nice job trying to trivialize street harassment.”
O: I’m not; merely describing what it is. And it is a cold approach, ie, approaching a Woman previously unknown to you.
“And the difference between harassment and non-harassment is that harassment is non-consensual. Not that hard to understand. It has nothing to do with subjective preferences.”
O: No, the difference between the two is one is wanted and the other is not. Just like sexual harassment at work. If the Women in question likes you, you may approach and put your thing down, at work, on the street or anywhere else. The opposite is true if she does not like you.
All of which brings up some interesting questions – if/when laws against street harassment go down, what will that mean for Men and Women meeting each other while out and about? Will it go down, go up, or remain the same? I don’t know if any studies have been done along these lines as it relates to sexual harassment on the job; for my part, I just don’t bother with any of it due to too much risk of incurring legal and punitive costs.
“You’re the one making that assumption, not the person you responded to. All that was implied is that you don’t fully understand and know about that philosophical position.”
O: That’s a fair point; but it’s also a fair point to note that my interlocutor attempted to foist something on me I never intended; I am simply saying that I do things based on a simple cost/benefit calculus. That may be deplorable to her, you and perhaps everyone here, but the simple truth is that people can and will do things out of naked self interest more often than not. I don’t dislike Abe Lincoln because he didn’t necessarily had a great love for Black folks and had more the idea of holding the Union together in mind. Eithe way, Black people were set free as a result, and that’s what works for me in the end.
“Nope.”
O: *shrugs* #Outrage is so overrated…
O.
I’m not conversing with you, I’m making fun of you. It amuses me to do so and when I am done, I will stop. If you leave before I am done, I will do so to the next troll. You are interchangeable, really. You may think you are a special little snowflake, but you are more accurately just an ice cube, same as every other creepy pick up idiot cranked out by that regressive mold.
And I should justify my level of activism to you, why exactly?
The difference is that most of the folk who identify themselves as feminists actually do engage in activism. Granted, we all have our own particular issues to focus primarily on, but we are also more likely to support each other when called on to do so because as a community we are interested in furthering the cause of equality before society and the law. Manboobz may not have a “table” somewhere collecting money for your own pet project but I’ll bet that more of us have been engaged in real activism (bathering on and on about “game” is not activism, BTW) in the last year than you have in your life.
Oy, well I don’t have the time or patience to skim more than a portion of OF’s comments here, but the idea that this is some sort of novel discussion is laughable. Virtually every feminist site has had this discussion foisted upon it many times, as has this one, by game-defenders or incels or whoever who DEMAND that feminists tell them how to get hot women into bed, as if this is some sort of basic human right that feminists are somehow responsible for handling for men.
But the thing that gets me again and again is the thing about consent, and how asking for consent will totally ruin the mood because SOME WOMEN DON’T LIKE THAT and it totally spoils the mood. Really? There may also be some women out there who like it when their dates surprise them with spontaneous anal sex without asking on the first date, but guess what, this doesn’t absolve men of the necessity of getting consent from women before springing it on their dates.
What I don’t understand is with all these MRAs and PUAs complaining endlessly about the dangers of false accusations, why aren’t they concerned with getting absolutely crystal clear consent before doing anything — if only to protect themselves?
It seems to me the only reason to whinge so much about consent and pretend it’s so hard to figure out is b/c so many PUAs depend on pressuring drunk women into sex in situations where consent is really problematic — Roosh himself has admitted to committing what in the US would be considered rape with a women too drunk to consent.
If there’s any doubt about consent, err on the side of NOT RAPE. Worst case scenario, you’ll miss out on an opportunity to have sex with a woman who for some reason doesn’t like to be asked for consent. Big damn deal.
@Gilly I’ve also seen “NDN”, but I’m not sure if it’s appropriate for out-group members to use it, so I’ve avoided it. I try to refer to people by their nation when possible (especially when people drop turds like “Native American culture”, singular), or “the indigenous peoples of this continent” if I feel like sounding pretentious, but when I’m talking to the average person “Native American” seems to be the best option.
But seriously. A census term that describes every culture from the Mi’kMaq of Maine to the native Hawaiians is only going to be accurate or useful in a very small range of circumstances.
CS: Oh dear, the most boring man in the world is back.
CS: And he apologized for all his teal deers, and then left more of them?
CS: And still with that really ridiculous way of commenting, as if he thinks people can’t read his name at the top of his comment.
CS: Are we sure he’s not a Poe? Because that would be so much less sad than the alternative.
CS.
Oh hey Obsidian, how’s life? I hope you’re well and stuff. I don’t know if you caught it from the last thread, but I think you’re a decent writer and kudos to you for your ability to string sentences together. Even if the subject matter is dark and you seem ( to me ) a little bitter at times.
Did you ever get around to answering why you think feminist regulate male sexuality (and why street harassment is crucial to male sexuality), block men from marrying whoever they like and are against legalized prostitution? If you have the time, I’d love to hear why you think that and where you got that idea from.
@Ally S:
“I love how you 1) universalize one personal anecdote in order to make a claim about society as a whole”
O: What’s good for the Feminist is good for the MRA…
“and 2) think that your anecdote is an example of misandry.”
O: I didn’t say that it was. Nice try, though…
“You have every right to not be with someone for whatever reason (including lack of sexual attraction),”
O: Thank you! I accept.
“but you really shouldn’t expect anything but disdain for bluntly saying that to someone in front of so many people.”
O: One would have thought that my candor would have been greatly appreciated, especially in light of how much lip service is paid to this on the part of Women especially when it comes to Men and dating situations…go figure…
“I wonder what those people who called you out would have said if you asked them if it’s okay to not date someone because of a lack of sexual attraction.”
O: See my comment on the matter; they would have tried to foist the young lady in question on me anyway on the basis that “she’s so nice”.
Really, this is an issue that’s more common on the guy side than we’re all willing to discuss openly; it’s just guys don’t make a stink about it.
I’m doing my part to change that…
“Quite a few, because they’re rather appropriate in this context.”
O: Perhaps; but I didn’t ask for appropriateness, I asked for volume count. Care to hazard a guess?
“Still having trouble seeing why we detest you?”
O: I never had any such “trouble” to begin with; I’m impervious to your or anyone else’s “detestations”…
Ok OF, I’m going to be way blunt here. If no one wants to date you or have sex with you then you don’t get a date and you don’t get sex. It does not mean you are allowed to harass or manipulate people (game) into doing what they dont want to do just because you feel entitled to your right to dates and sex. I’m sorry neither one of those are rights. Find another legitimate way to meet people (join a fucking club, volunteer, join a goddamn dating site) and hopefully meet someone who likes you. Unfortunately there is no guarantee that these things WILL lead to dates or sex. No one in this world is required to date or have sex with you or anyone else. I’m sorry but if no one wants to have sex with you ever then too damn bad, you don’t get to “make them”. I’m putting that in blunt terms for a reason, to make you get it. As sucky as it would be to never find intimacy or companionship you are still not entitled to it.
LOL! http://bit.ly/TjlOS7
Non consensual = not wanted. Hundreds and hundreds of people have indicated that they do not want to be harassed on the street. You may think that you know better than they do what they want, but that is just the voices in your head.
Silly David! Don’t you know that this girl once smiled at this guy who told her that she had great tits, so that must mean that women actually do want to be heckled on the street, and it is therefore totally worth upsetting all of those people who are offended and disgusted by it because there is a chance, however slender, that Teh Secks will result!
PS – don’t read it, it’s just the same old crap with different misused capitalization.
@emilygoddess Yeah, it’s a challenge. I find it hard to believe, though, that you aren’t ahead of the curve in that respect. Being aware and sensitive about the pitfalls counts for a lot, at least to most of us. ;-)
@Dave:
“Oy, well I don’t have the time or patience to skim more than a portion of OF’s comments here,”
O: That’s hardly surprising and is most unfortunate, because I have addressed what you’re talking about in great detail.
“but the idea that this is some sort of novel discussion is laughable. Virtually every feminist site has had this discussion foisted upon it many times, as has this one, by game-defenders or incels or whoever who DEMAND that feminists tell them how to get hot women into bed, as if this is some sort of basic human right that feminists are somehow responsible for handling for men.”
O: I don’t know about that Dave. The SCOTUS recently made a major ruling involving Gays and Lesbians, and I am inclined to agree with certain pundits on the Left who argue that we straight folk might do well to observe the Gays/Lesbians among us and see what we can learn from them.
At bottom, I think there is a real question here – do we have the Right to Love? That’s what the Loving Decision was all about, and that’s what the DOMA ruling speaks to as well. Why wouldn’t it move in other directions…including this one?
“But the thing that gets me again and again is the thing about consent, and how asking for consent will totally ruin the mood because SOME WOMEN DON’T LIKE THAT and it totally spoils the mood. Really? There may also be some women out there who like it when their dates surprise them with spontaneous anal sex without asking on the first date, but guess what, this doesn’t absolve men of the necessity of getting consent from women before springing it on their dates.”
O: No argument there. But perhaps you can teach me out of your own extensive experience, Dave:
How have you handled these situations? Seriously? I can pass that info on to my readers and the like. It can be of great use to them.
“What I don’t understand is with all these MRAs and PUAs complaining endlessly about the dangers of false accusations, why aren’t they concerned with getting absolutely crystal clear consent before doing anything — if only to protect themselves?”
O: I for one most certainly am; I made this clear when I commented earlier this morning…
“It seems to me the only reason to whinge so much about consent and pretend it’s so hard to figure out is b/c so many PUAs depend on pressuring drunk women into sex in situations where consent is really problematic — Roosh himself has admitted to committing what in the US would be considered rape with a women too drunk to consent.”
O: And the USA authorities can and should apprehend him and prosecute their case. In the meantime, I don’t mess with alcohol in the least and will decline any overtures from a Woman who is drunk…
“If there’s any doubt about consent, err on the side of NOT RAPE. Worst case scenario, you’ll miss out on an opportunity to have sex with a woman who for some reason doesn’t like to be asked for consent. Big damn deal.”
O: OK – but then what? Not all guys have Women falling out of the sky like you do, Dave. And you’ve made it clear that Pickup ain’t the way to go.
So…what should the do?
You were saying…?
O.
You’re begging to differ with my (and other women’s) direct personal experience of the effects of street harassment? And I bet you think mansplaining isn’t a thing…
Yeah, driving by and shouting or honking is obviously a mating tactic. You can tell by the way they make absolutely no effort to actually approach you *eyeroll*
You: women want men to “just know”. Just look at romance novels!
Us: Romance novels are fantasy
You: tell that to the multi-billion dollar romance novel industry
Your argument is that women must want IRL sex to match that in romance novels, because some women spend billions of dollars on romance novels. By that logic, since pron is also a multi-billion dollar industry supported mainly by men, men must all want IRL sex to match that shown in porn.
Do try to keep up, dear.
“Addressing criticism of my arguments isn’t what I want to say”
Well, at least you’re honest…
1) Prove it
2) Rapists locked up in the joint are only 16% of rapists.
1) Five sites = all of feminism
2) I hallucinated all those donation drives for Planned Parenthood, RAINN, BARCC, V-Day, etc.
They weren’t your exact words, but you still implied that it’s an example of men facing pressure based on attitudes biased against men.
Irrelevant. Moreoever, despite the fact that I’ve seen navel-gazing among feminists, at least I’m far less likely to see them use one experience to make a whole claim about society in general.
You’re forgetting the fact that 1) she was crying in response and 2) the fact that you said that in front of everyone. So it’s hard to see how your “candor” should have helped you avoid the judgment from people around you. Do you really think it’s unreasonable to speculate that they said those things simply because they wanted to make her feel better?
Let me rephrase that: “Do you still find it difficult to understand why people dislike you [in light of what you said about street harassment]?”
There, now you can’t pick apart my words and dodge what I was saying.
@Gillyrosebee I hope I don’t come off as wanting praise or cookies, by the way. If I did, I’m sorry.
Ah, yes. The heroic, and sadly misunderstood, moral courage of the asshole. Telling the truth, no matter how painful it is to hear (and even better if you can make it hurt more!).
No, dearie, that wasn’t just candor and you knew it wouldn’t be “appreciated” because if you cared at all about her feelings you would have been explicit and honest with her face to face in a private setting where you could avoid inflicting more than the absolute minimum of pain (acknowledging that being rejected is painful enough).
But no, you are an asshole, so you decided to go for the sociopath of the day gold medal. You intentionally shamed and embarrassed her in front of as many people as you could. Even your friends think you are an asshole, according to your own reporting, because they thought that shaming her in public was uncool.
Just to be clear, women who shame men in public are acting like assholes too. Empathy IS expected to go both ways and all failures in basic human empathy deserve scorn.
@Bad Dog:
“Ok OF, I’m going to be way blunt here.”
O: Thank you! I deeply appreciate candor.
“If no one wants to date you or have sex with you then you don’t get a date and you don’t get sex.”
O: Makes sense to me…
“It does not mean you are allowed to harass or manipulate people (game) into doing what they dont want to do just because you feel entitled to your right to dates and sex.”
O: Game does not have to involve harassment or manipulation in order for it to work…
“I’m sorry neither one of those are rights. Find another legitimate way to meet people (join a fucking club, volunteer, join a goddamn dating site)”
O: Thank you for reminding me; here is that study Jon Millward of the UK did on OKCupid (which has been merged with Match.com:
Cupid on Trial: A 4-month Online Dating Experiment Using 10 Fictional Singletons
http://jonmillward.com/blog/attraction-dating/cupid-on-trial-a-4-month-online-dating-experiment/
“and hopefully meet someone who likes you.”
O: Yes; but how does that square with the personal anecdotes I discussed earlier? More often than we’re willing to admit, the Women in questio…just aren’t attractive. Then what?
“Unfortunately there is no guarantee that these things WILL lead to dates or sex. No one in this world is required to date or have sex with you or anyone else. I’m sorry but if no one wants to have sex with you ever then too damn bad, you don’t get to “make them”.”
O: I don’t disagree; and yet, the guy’s just stuck like Chuck, with nothing, and no recourse. I mean, it’s the 21st century; is this the best we can do here?
“I’m putting that in blunt terms for a reason, to make you get it. As sucky as it would be to never find intimacy or companionship you are still not entitled to it.”
O: Agreed; but why are we so quick to just throw up our hands on this issue?
That’s what fascinates me…
O.
@Ally
Oh, Ally, haven’t you learned by now? OF doesn’t imply anything, and any meaning you read into his words that isn’t literally spelled out by them is an error on your part.
giantsarcasmtag.gif
No worries and no apologies needed! You and auggziliary were both discussing the issue in a pretty forthright way, which is why I felt comfy chiming in, because I was pretty confident that I could do so without coming across (too much) like I was trying to ‘school’ anyone and just offer my perspective for the teeny tiny little anecdotal piece of non-evidence it amounts to! I do have a bit of perspective that sometimes is useful, because I am often there for part of the conversation that goes on after all the ‘others’ are out of the room and I offer it for illustration, not because it amounts to much more than my own personal experience. I also know the conversation changes again after I leave, because I present as pretty much completely Caucasian and didn’t grow up on the rez. I may be closer in on the Venn diagram, but I can’t speak for the center (and hope I never slip into doing so), just from a position nearer it’s boundaries.
@Ally S:
“They weren’t your exact words, but you still implied that it’s an example of men facing pressure based on attitudes biased against men.”
O: Yes, you have a penchant for reading what may not in fact be there. Here’s a novel approach, for future reference: just ask me what I meant. :)
“Irrelevant.”
O: No, HIGHLY relevant, because a big part of Feminist thought is that the personal, is political. One’s personal narrative, is what is to inform social and public policy questions. Why should it change now that it involves MRAs? Hypocrisy much?
“Moreoever, despite the fact that I’ve seen navel-gazing among feminists, at least I’m far less likely to see them use one experience to make a whole claim about society in general.”
O: ??? Ooookaaaay…
“You’re forgetting the fact that 1) she was crying in response”
O: Oh, I remember it quite well, alright…
“and 2) the fact that you said that in front of everyone.”
O: So? She was also foisted on me in front of everyone too, and repeatedly at that. Nothing done was inconsistent.
“So it’s hard to see how your “candor” should have helped you avoid the judgment from people around you.”
O: Wait – now you’re calling my honesty into question?
“Do you really think it’s unreasonable to speculate that they said those things simply because they wanted to make her feel better?”
O: Let’s reverse the genders for a moment. How many Women have just outright nuked a guy, in the most public of ways? And how many of them have been upbraided by their people for it?
What I learned out of that experience is to get my own Women, and don’t rely on what some refer to as “Social circle Game”. More often than not, your friends – especially the female ones – can NOT pick appropriate mates for you, because their ideas of what constitutes “cute” just is not the business…
“Let me rephrase that: “Do you still find it difficult to understand why people dislike you [in light of what you said about street harassment]?””
O: You are free to rephrase all you like; I simply do not care about why people I don’t know and don’t know me, “dislike” me because I didn’t say something appropraitely poltically correct enough for them. *shrugs again*
“There, now you can’t pick apart my words and dodge what I was saying.”
O: See above…
O.
I can’t believe I read the whole thing.
And I can’t believe all I have to say is “What a creepy fucker.”
I think
I may
Have located
Something I perceive to be…
The beating monstrosity that is the heart of this understanding…
Obsidian, do you know what consent *is*?
I really don’t mean that as a coy insinuation of anything. The question is sincere – it seems to me as if you’ve… constructed this strange world wherein a man must have form signed in triplicate by three witnesses before even touching someone.
A world wherein hugging someone without express written permission and a strict time limit is a direct offense, worthy of jail time.
… You don’t have to ask “May I?” every time you do anything? You know this. I know this. So my only three conclusions must be – you’re kidding, you don’t know, or I’m reading you wrong.
Also, if it’s a buzzkill for someone to be asked whether or whether not they want to make out until lights start sparkling in their insides, I really – really! – recommend you don’t make out with them. Like, ever. Because they’re not the kind of people willing to communicate what they want out of life, and frankly, I don’t have time to deal with that and neither does anyone else. I hope. For their own good.
“What are these guys supposed to do”? Well, get a hobby. NO, really, get a hobby. Do something with their lives that doesn’t involve an endless chase to get laid, because if they spend 100 % of their time worrying about their dates then they’re very bad dates – they have nothing to think or talk about being an ejaculation inside someone.
Would you date someone desperate?
Talk to people. If A doesn’t work, talk to B. Realize that you’ll face both rejection and mutual attraction. Maybe they should talk to strangers, or wonder if they’re looking for masturbation puppets more than a relationship and if so, whether that’s really a good idea. Basic stuff, recommended by both Gamesters, Gentlemen and most advice columns. Everywhere.
But seriously, is your idea of Feminist Sex Advice a man groveling before a woman, on his knees, weepingly asking “May I?” before kissing her toes? It fits the idea of a Tyrannical Matriarch , but, really now…
… I’m sorry that happened to you, but you realize… This is normal?
People telling you you should date other people is… pretty normal. Someone bursting into tears because of rejection is… pretty normal?
Perhaps this strikes a chord, because only last night, following my summer job of archery practice I had to have this very conversation with someone trying to sneak into my bed.
… You realize… Not… Being attracted to someone.. is okay? And if people give you flak for it… It’s their fault, generally speaking? You had this entire triade going earlier about how no one, you got it! Totally!, deserves sex and how it really is up to the individuals… but did you just back track on that?
Seriously, man. I had someone I work with tell me I was a shell of a man with a character I had and a soul buried beneath all the questions I dodge in casual conversation and how I was probably secretively gay, anyway, but really, why didn’t I let someone into my otherwise bleak and broken heart less than 12 hours ago and… That sucks, but some people just can’t handle rejection.
That’s normal.
That’s not a flipside of anything. And your friends where invested in setting you up, so obviously they’re angry at you now. Remember, they see the tears and the drama. Your lack of emotion is generally not something anyone can work with.
Come on.
Coooomee oooon.
Not NOW, blockquotes monster!
Fib – I don’t think that’s a misunderstanding. He’s exaggerating the difficulty of obtaining consent to absolve himself the responsibility of obtaining it. Numerous other posters have explained that enthusiastic participation is also consent. His counter claim: that most men aren’t sexy enough to have a woman do anything other than lie there and sigh.
*shudder*
I love it when the trolls go all Hal. So, Dave, what are your opinions on my tl;dr? You didn’t read it, Dave? That’s a shame, Dave.
@GRB:
“Ah, yes. The heroic, and sadly misunderstood, moral courage of the asshole. Telling the truth, no matter how painful it is to hear (and even better if you can make it hurt more!).”
O: Oh, I have not, and would not, ever refer to myself as “heroic”. “Misunderstood” though…maybe…
“No, dearie, that wasn’t just candor and you knew it wouldn’t be “appreciated” because if you cared at all about her feelings you would have been explicit and honest with her face to face in a private setting where you could avoid inflicting more than the absolute minimum of pain (acknowledging that being rejected is painful enough).”
O: Why? Everything was conducted in full view of others, from start to finish. Why then must take her aside? And, as I said to Ally S: how many Women have nuked guys in the most brutal of ways – for and away moreso than what I said/did – to guys? At clubs, at bars, on the street, at house parties, you name it? In front of his friends? In front of his family? Sometimes, in front of his very parents? (I’ve actually seen this happen once, whew!) – and how many of those Women get upbraided the way you and Ally S are upbraiding me? It’s been my direct experience and observation that more often than not, nothing is said at all to her, or flimsy excuses are offered. I see blatant and flagrant hypocrisy on this score – again…
“But no, you are an asshole, so you decided to go for the sociopath of the day gold medal. You intentionally shamed and embarrassed her in front of as many people as you could. Even your friends think you are an asshole, according to your own reporting, because they thought that shaming her in public was uncool.”
O: If they were truly my “friends” they would have know that I was highly unlikey to be interested on her; what I learned that day was that they didn’t know me in even the most casual and surface of ways, not even taking notice of what kind of Women really turn my crank. I’m, telling you, this is a bigger issue than many Men will let on, and I’m speaking openly on it. Because it’s about time.
Moreover, they should have never attempted to foist her on me to begin with – repeatedly. She should have never attempted to use her social position to try to push up on me, *unwanted*. I didn’t ask for her to be in my cipher, I owe her nothing.
“Just to be clear, women who shame men in public are acting like assholes too. Empathy IS expected to go both ways and all failures in basic human empathy deserve scorn.”
O: So, WHY aren’t they called on the carpet by their friends then? What does this make so many Women?
O.