Long Weekend Open Thread
Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
Posted on July 5, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 1,365 Comments.
pecunium — not here you haven’t, no. But if you’re that into the gin, and can understand my crash course in stats, I think my job here is done! (Figuratively, I know I still have a chart request :) )
I’m not trolling, I’m in front of an unsolved dilemma. I try to use my disgust aroused by the shit you spew as a tool for reflexion in order to find a key.
Holy fucking hell, pecunium! I’ve been reading that popehat thread for six fucking hours that I should have spent writing, and I’m only halfway through! I haven’t even got to your comments yet, but my eyes are already bleeding from the tedious “But it’s not FAYUR! That’s not what I said. You misunderstood me. You’re clearly not understanding my brilliant use of a specific, obscure definition of this commonly-used word.” bullshit from the creep-apologists.
@LBT
I look forward to hearing about your many adventures!
I’m roughly in the middle between D.C. and Richmond, VA, so if you’re in the vicinity and need a ride/meal/place to crash for a few days, I should be able to help. It looks like you’d be heading that direction last, but that just gives me plenty of time to get the extra room ready.
Piss off, Brz. You’re a boring troll and even if you knew how to tell the truth, we’re not your therapists or your doms. Go shove your head back up your arse where it’s most comfortable.
I come bearing gifts.
And now I’d rather hear more about LBTs planned journey. Or recipes. Anyone bought any cool bras lately? Cat stories? Pretty much anything that won’t bore the crap out of me really.
I reunited a lost dog with her owner. She was a schnauser and I had to run after her for two blocks. Ironically my running shoes were in the back of the car.
Damn that key is lovely!
I have no recipes or such, but I will ask yet again what people want too we in the survey results. Like, seriously, last fucking call people. I’m only asking again because I spent all day on statistics and then FUCKING WORDING (thank you pecunium!)
What do you all want to see?
I have new bras! I went to a specialty store and bought four, but only have one, because they’re on back-order. I can’t wait ’til they come! (I have rilly big knockers, so bra-buying is always an adventure for me, and poorly-fitting ones are painful.)
I actually got fitted at a different specialty store, and the bras were lovely, but $200 each. The ones I bought are less pretty, but fit better, and only cost me $300 for 4.
Also, a new favourite recipe. Since I’m not doing grains anymore, here’s a grain-free pad thai. I added shrimp to mine (just before adding the zucchini).
http://www.health-bent.com/sides/paleo-pad-thai
I also salted the zucchini noodles for about a half hour to draw out the moisture and make the texture more toothsome, and rinsed them really well before adding them.
I have a feeling that even if Treyvon Martian looked and acted like Carlton Banks, Zimmerman would’ve still gone after him and used the thug excuse.
I went bra shopping last night, but no luck. I was looking for not-underwire, reasonably light bras for warm weather. Much as I like the moulded bras I have, I’ve found the end of the underwire gets uncomfortable on the right, up near my armpit. There was a wire-free bra by Triumph advertised, but when I tried it, ewww! It gaped across the top, not a good fit at all.
I did find a cool top purely by chance en route, though – on sale, too. It’s a little more clingy across mah belleh than I’d have chosen, but eh, I like it and so does Mr K.
I HATE wires in bras. They inevitably get bent out of shape and poke through the material, and into skin. My favourite bras have a kind of a shelf in the cup to provide support, made of a thick band of fabric. But the biggest thing is that they have to be tight enough to make sure all the weight is resting against your ribs, and not on your shoulders.
@Katz: That’s great about the dog! Accept an internet cheer!
I don’t think “you could always find someone to sleep with if you lowered your standards” is a fair response to someone who’s just “I’m so lonely… *sob*”, although it is relevant to point out to people who argue that women could get sex any time they wanted to, since that meme is only true if we assume women had no standards to speak of. But if someone merely goes “I’m so lonely… and I haven’t had sex for years… *sob*”, yeah, it’s probably left implicit that this person couldn’t find anyone zie’s attracted to who wanted to sleep with zir, and arguing that zie could always lower zir standards would be rude in that context.
Generally, I wouldn’t have a problem with a dude (or a woman or genderqueer or whatever) who merely wanted some sympathy for neither finding romantic partners nor sex partners for a long time. That could happen to anyone, since the universe isn’t fair, and it’s not fun. What made me so furious about these guys I mentioned in my post up the thread, and a lot of other guys popping up in feminists blogs whining about their lack of sex/romance, well, it’s not even that it’s off topic to start going on about their lack of sex/romance in a discussion about street harassment or consent (although that’s bad enough), it’s that they want to blame feminism for their lack of sex/romance. And it’s like they’re demanding that feminists go “Oh, sorry, I didn’t realize all of this consent talk would make sex complicated for you – I certainly don’t want sex to be complicated for random internet dude, I certainly don’t want you to feel uncertain about yourself in sexual situations, so please, forget all about consent and just go ahead and stick your dick in whatever woman you feel like! Of course consent is important, but never as important as your boner!” Or “Oh sorry, I didn’t realize the only way you’d ever meet a woman would be through street harassment, and by condemning street harassment I’ve now doomed you to a life of solitude. Please go ahead and harass!”.
THAT’S NOT GONNA HAPPEN, DUDES.
I’ve only recently reached a size where I need to think about what type of bra to wear in that respect, and it’s not because weight’s a problem. I’m a D cup and can go without a bra perfectly comfortably. It’s just that some styles work way better than others. Moulded bras suit my shape better than sewn ones, and I like the way they look on me. The underwire is just a pest, not in that the point digs in or comes out, but that the section at the side, also padded, where it sits seems to press/rub against everything – as much my arm as my breast. It’s most noticeable when I’m doing data entry at work (lots of using the mouse) or knitting.
Dvarg – and of course the “incels” like GGG never just say “I’m so lonely. They always do expect the HB10 who’s a virginal porn star and super chef. They do complain about women having actual tastes or standards in what we find attractive. They do expect women to take on any man (ie. themselves) regardless of whether he has anything attractive about him at all, but they don’t accept that they should then have the same attitude.
So like you said – if anyone was just saying they were lonely, that’s one thing. But that’s never the case with misogynists, and I definitely include “incels” in that category (not to mention the Really Stupid Liars category, since they often enough seem to own up to things like, well, yeah, I was dating six months ago, BUT I’M TOTALLY INVOLUNTARILY CELIBATE AND ALWAYS HAVE BEEN AND I’M GOING TO DIIIIIIE).
Dudes, if lack of sex was fatal and your lives are as sex-free as you claim, you’d have keeled over by now.
For that matter I wouldn’t be typing this, cos I doubt they’d accept sex in Spirit as counting. :D
Being flat-chested is certainly convenient. :-) I usually go without a bra, and if I do buy one, I can buy a really cheap one. Although it can be a bit of a hassle finding one without padding, as if people with tiny boobs ought to be ashamed of that fact.
Yeah, it’s not the complaining aspect so much as the expectation that their sad cocks should be more important than anything else that grates. It’s particularly annoying when they jump into conversations that are a bit more serious, ie. not talking about catcalling so much as talking about rape, with the oh woe is me for I am so tragically unfucked stuff. At that point I’m going, dude, given that you’ve just demonstrated the fact that you think your right to get your cock wet is more important than anyone else’s right not to be violated, any sympathy I might otherwise have had for you has just vanished, because if this is how you normally come across then I know exactly why nobody wants to fuck you.
@ Dvarg
And then there are the bras for women who’re DD and over with tons of padding, because clearly our boobs just aren’t big enough already, right? Granted that part of my issue with those is that I don’t like super-padded bras because they always look really odd under clothes. My friend calls them Muppet bras, because they look like you’re wearing a Muppet strapped to your chest.
Unimaginative: I ought to have been asleep hours ago (nine hour day at work tomorrow). That dude is worse than Brandon. Wait until you see the shit he pulls on me (In addition to the, “you aren’t understanding me/You don’t comprehend things very well do you/etc.).
@Cassandra, okay, that’s just bizarre. I never really check out large bras since I’m not gonna buy them anyway, but I had sort of assumed that padding was something they put into A-cups.
Nope! I’ve seen super padded bras in a GG cup, and just…why? A small amount of padding to prevent nipple show-through and create a smooth line makes sense, but why add half an inch or more of it?
I should have noticed this before, but GGG has standards that exclude the girl he went on a date with but include his mum! Maybe he just wants anyone who won’t sleep with him?
@Dvar:
I have a question:
In light of all you have said above upthread – and I DO think you make a number of legitimate points (i.e., street harassment and romance are NOT the same thing, etc.), and in light of the fact that it is clear that many (perhaps all) of you don’t have a high opinion of Game/Pickup…
…what do you recommend such guys as the one(s) you are discussing do? Where do they go to get themselves together to get dates? Where are the services/providers of services that specifically target and address Men along these lines?
I’m being really serious here. Now, to be sure, Feminists and others – such as yourself, perhaps – may respond, that it’s not your or anyone else’s concern where said guy(s) go; that’s on them to figure out – and I can respect that answer, if indeed that’s where you and others here, may be coming from.
Fair enough.
But, it just seems to me – as we deal with “Nice Guy(TM)” and street harassment questions, and the like, the larger question of a large cohort of guys, who need help in getting dates and lovers. Clearly, many of you do not like the PUA approach – fair enough.
So, what are these guys supposed to do?
Again, I am being sincere here.
Comments? Thoughts?
O.
@TBM:
“That’s not hypocritical at all, for the very reasons you said. People deserve food, medical care, shelter, and water because they are required to live. Sex is a strong desire for a lot of people, but it is not essential to survival. And a person who can’t find a sex partner can masturbate. It might not be what they prefer, but at least it doesn’t turn their desire for sex into someone else’s obligation to provide sex.”
O: I hear what you’re saying, but in fairness, an argument can be made that no one “deserves” housing, food, etc., either – that no one “owes” these things to someone else. I say that to make the point that all needs/desires along these lines are legitimate, and in truth, human history has addressed them in varying ways down through the ages. When it comes to questions of sex, and more specifically, the male drive/desire to get it from/with Women, again, humanity has addressed this in varying ways across the world.
In our current environment, i.e., the United States, prostitution, while obtainable, is nevertheless illegal. That, raises a lot of legitimate concerns for many Men in our time – safety, health/medical concerns, price-gouging (since anything that goes on the black market can also tend to go up in price, etc.). Until prostitution is fully legalized/dercriminalized, I just do not see a viable, workable solution here.
If I may, from a male perspective, masturbation really isn’t a good option, and I do not expect you or any of the other ladies in the forum to understand or agree with this – and in truth, none of you are obligated to do so. And yes, life often ain’t fair. It may indeed be the only option for those guys who are sidelined in the mating game.
But for me, these guys really have nowhere else to go. The MRA and PUA spheres are, to your and others’ minds, a nonstarter. And there are really no one else out there that is addressing these concerns on the part of Men. Now, to be sure, it isn’t the responsibility of Women to do it either – granted.
It’s just a heck of a situation for a guy to be in, is all I’m saying.
O.
@Gillyrosebee:
“The most solid, objective definition of “creepy” that I have found is “unaware of or uncaring about what behaviors are likely to make others uncomfortable”.
I like it. Succinct and focused on the behavior in a way that will hopefully short circuit the whole “it’s just a cover for saying ‘unattractive guy’” bullshit.”
O: I don’t know about that, GRB. I mean, couldn’t there be room *for all three* “takes” on it?
Clearly, there are guys who fit into the two catergories you quote above – those who are not *aware* of their behaviors – and those who are *uncaring* about their behaviors – that make WOMEN (and I do think it’s necessary to point that out), uncomfortable.
Is it really fair to lump in the two catergories of guys here?
One may not be a bad person and all, and is simply suffering from ignorance; while clearly, the other is someone who simply doesn’t care how he’s coming off to Women. Huge difference, I would think.
Now, having said all that – I can completely see how and why, a Woman in a social situation, wouldn’t be particularly interested in trying to suss out which guy from which; for all intents, both guys are “unattractive guys” aka “creepy” – and again, I can grok that.
But, and this is important if we want to make some change here, there *is* a difference between the two types of guys.
It just seems to me that at some point, we all will have to move beyond mere mockery towards real solutions.
I’m just sayin…
O.
@Dvar:
“1. Just read one feminist blogger who commented on a newspaper chronicle about how hipsters never have sex, and she’s like “what a silly chronicle, almost incoherent, and everyone I know still has sex, even those who could be labelled hipsters”. All the commenters chime in and are like “yeah, that was a silly generalizing chronicle”. Guy comes in and comments that he and his buddies, they never have sex nowadays, because this whole sex thing has been ruined for them with all this consent talk, it’s so terribly hard to know whether a woman really wants to have sex or not so they feel it’s better to just abstain from it altogether!
Oh, poor guys, *patting them on the head*. SERIOUSLY. It’s NOT THAT HARD. Most people SHOWS when they want to have sex, and if you’re uncertain, just fucking ASK.”
O: Fair enough – but – and this is important – all Women don’t necessarily see a guy asking “may I?” at every turn in the seduction to be a turn on. In fact, quite a few Women find it to be a turnoff.
I think a big problem here is that the Internet has a way of funneling people of likemind and interests into one small niche or space, and from where everyone there thinks that everyone *out there* thinks the same way, too. To be sure, no Woman is looking to be raped, granted. And yet, as I said, there ARE indeed lots of Women out there who really dig guys who know how to “take the lead” and “just do” things – like, moving in for a kiss. Per the Feminist way of doing things, the guy would have to ask first – and while that certainly makes sense, it also runs the very real risk of killing the attraction on the lady end.
And dude winds up with…nothing.
Now what?
“2. Read another feminist blogger who writes about how she wants to be able to walk down-town in goth clothes without random dudes commenting on her clothes, even if it’s just to give “compliments” on how beautiful she is. Various girls chime in, then some guy comments that he’s been lonely and celibate for many years now because he respects women too much.
Oh, poor guy! SERIOUSLY. It’s NOT THAT HARD. Just don’t “compliment” random women walking down the street minding their own business. You won’t hook up with anyone doing that anyway. And sure, there are no guarantees in love and sex, you might end up lonely and celibate through no fault of your own, but stop pretending as if it’s the fault of feminists asking that you don’t “compliment” random women walking down the street minding their own business.”
O: OK, fair enough – but then, where is the guy supposed to go for romantic interest in ladies? Many of you here (and I’ve seen others say as much in similar venues online) don’t seem to have a very high opinion of the niteclub and bar scene; the guy in question can’t approach Women on the street; online dating really isn’t an option for most Men, since for most Men, it doesn’t work (Jon Millward out of the UK did a very interesting study on this in fact, using OKCupid); I mean, what is he supposed to do?
Now, look – again, I get it that it isn’t the Feminists’ job, nor any of yours, to advise guys on how they should go about this. But it just seems very incomplete to tell Men “don’t do this/don’t do that”, then turnaround and say “we don’t like pickup”, then turnaround and say, “Nice Guys (TM) suck” and so forth. It all adds up to a lot of guys hearing very clearly, what a lot of Women (and some Men, if Dave Futrelle, et al are any indication) DON’T want guys to do – and again, fair enough. Got no problem with that in the least. The problem is, that it seems like Women (and again, certain Men) don’t seem all that concerned with helping these guys get their acts together; it’s almost like a “let them eat cake” attitude, which I find to be very…heartless, to tell you the truth.
Sure, there are guys out there who are just not the business – we definitely agree on that. But the problem I have with these kinds of discussions, is that it has the tendency to lump in “all” the guys into one pile; that’s what Joanna Schroeder talked about during the Nice Guys of OKCupid fiasco. Sure, some of them were out to lunch and so forth, but a lot of them were decent people who just didn’t know how to make it happen. How excoriating them helps things, especially when it comes to them having any chance at getting any dates at all, is really baffling to me.
O.
Grumpycat: I have had guys do that same exact thing to me and I always point to the desk or whatever surface is handy. It is usually some bit of debris they picked up or a penny or something, but I would never put my hand out for something I can’t see first either, it’s not just you. I am also very hesitant to touch other peoples hands though, ick. I find that as long as they are able to “give” you the thing, it sort of deflates the point of their odd interaction with you and they go away as awkwardly as they appeared. “Don’t say I never gave you anything”, taps desk rather than holding out hand, penny drops on desk, “Gee thanks mister,” “Ha ha, um yeah welcome…”
I would also like to address a very popular area of concern that I hear on the part of critics of the Manosphere – the idea, that “I can’t get laid” (i.e., the “InCel” argument) is not completely honest; that it is in fact, more along the lines of “I can’ get laid with the Woman of my choice” – which IS indeed, a huge difference.
I am going to agree with those who criticise the Manosphere along these lines, because I too think the guys who say such things aren’t being completely honest with themselves or anyone else.
If I may, I’d like to relate a personal story.
Way back in highschool, I approached several young ladies to be my date for the prom, about half a dozen or so; all of them turned me down, on the basis (so they said) of my (lack) of height; back then, I was about 5’5″ or so (I’m 5’8″ today). It hurt, terribly, and decided to sit my senior prom out altogether.
Now – the truth of the matter was, that I probably *could have* gotten a date for the prom, if I kept asking around, and more importantly, if I was willing to lower my sights a bit on whom I approached, thus raising my chances of getting a date. But the plain truth of it was, that I wasn’t sexually attracted to those I considered to be “leftovers”; and though I didn’t know today what I knew then about these things, I understood intuitively that no Woman wants to be with someone who really is just “tolerating” them; that would be unfair, too.
So again, I simply sat out the prom altogether, and didn’t go.
I couldn’t blame anyone else, because I *could* have gotten a date; she just would not have been the date/kind of Women *I* desired. In that, it was no one else’s responsibility to tend to me. It was mine alone.
And so I never blamed anyone else for my not going to the prom – not the really attractive gals who turned me down, and not the less than attractive gals who might have gone with me. I simply took it on the chin, and kept it moving.
What I learned from that experience, and the experiences that would follow, is that, aside from the above mentioned, that sexual/physical attraction isn’t something that is as malleable as some might think. At least not for me, anyway. Everytime I lowered my standards in what I considered to be beautiful in a Woman, I lived to regret it – and after a few times of being burned, I decided that if I had to endure long stretches without a date or lover, because they were lower than what I desired, then so be it. Again, I couldn’t be mad or angry or even sad at anyone else; it was my decision, and mine alone.
No one owes me a relationship, no matter how “nice” or “good” I may think myself to be. Even if those things were true about me, people, in this case Women, have the right to determine for themselves, who they will spend their time with, if anyone at all, for any reason at all. In this, I think my Manosphere brothers have much to learn.
Having said that however, I have all the right in the Universe to have my desirability standards, though, and I think, to be fair, some on the anti-Manosphere side, seem to be a bit disrespectful of those of us who have said standards, too. They are often derided as upholding sexist, some say even misogynistic, views of Women, and so forth; in that I am Black, it is not at all uncommon to hear some Black Women charge Black Men with “self-hatred” for liking lighter skinned Black Women, and/or those Black Women who choose to adopt hairstyles that are closer to White Women, and so forth; in the White community in this regard, those who criticize us almost seem to “demand” that we date “unconventionally attractive” Women, and it’s just a nonstarter, to say nothing of being just as disrespectful. Just because a guy may not have what it takes to attract the Woman of his desires, does not then also mean that he should just settle for whatever he can get, and his desires be damned.
It just seems to me that both Men and Women here, need a gutcheck – Men have the right to like what they like, for whatever reason, no matter what anyone else thinks of it; and Women have the right to be or not to be with anyone, no matter what anyone else thinks of it.
I think if we can all agree on – and work toward that, in our respective “spheres” – I think we just might make some real progress…
O.
Seriously, Obsidian Files, can’t you get your point across in shorter messages than that?
What I gather from skimming through these posts of yours is that you think we ought to be sympathetic to guys who are just confused, socially awkward or lonely through no fault of their own. But I don’t think anyone in the thread has denied that. Plus, you have places like Captain Awkward, feminist blogger who’ll happily advise people of both genders who’re simply confused on how to get a date etc. What grinds our gears is when lonely guys think it’s somehow feminists fault that they’re lonely.
And regarding the whole consent thing, I said “if you’re uncertain just fucking ask”, but really, I don’t think verbally asking is necessary most of the time. It’s not like the normal way of having (hetero)sex includes a woman who just lies there and stare at the ceiling while the man does his best to telepathically find out whether she wants him to stick his dick into her or not. If you have sex that involves two (or more for that matter) enthusiastically participating people, you’re fine. When feminists stress that rape doesn’t have to involve physically forcing someone, they’re trying to draw attention to situations where the victim shut down and played dead because the situation was threatening despite no explicit threat haven been mentioned, which might happen, for instance, if the guy kept tearing at her clothes when she tries to take his hands away, kept ignoring her “no:s” until she gave up, kept going at her when she tried to turn away and so on. JUST DON’T BE THAT GUY and you’re pretty much in the clear, you know? It’s not complicated unless you WANT to complicate things by going “Oh but some women fantasize about a guy who doesn’t take no for an answer” yada yada yada.
Seriously, I can’t believe how much some guys love to complicate things that really aren’t that complicated. I’ve had a ton of one night stands that didn’t involve the guy verbally asking “do you want to have sex?”, but neither did it involve me trying to say “no” and taking his hands away and the guy just ignoring it. (You know, I bet many of these situations could even be described as the guy “taking the lead”, and that’s fine, as long as you don’t ignore “no:s” and the woman taking your hands away or turning away etc.) It was two people enthusiastically making out, then taking each other’s clothes off, then having sex, and it didn’t require super-natural telepathy skills.
The problem is, that it seems like Women (and again, certain Men) don’t seem all that concerned with helping these guys get their acts together
You’re right OF. What these men need is something like game – something that ‘makes rape unnecessary’.
Come on, feminists. Stop making rape ‘necessary’.
@Dvar:
“Seriously, Obsidian Files, can’t you get your point across in shorter messages than that?”
O: My apologies for being a bit longwinded; but, to be fair, these ARE some serious issues we are all discussing. I for one, take things like street harassment and the like seriously; but I also take Male sexual desire and attendant social questions seriously, too. In my world, there’s room for concern, for both.
What say you?
“What I gather from skimming through these posts of yours is that you think we ought to be sympathetic to guys who are just confused, socially awkward or lonely through no fault of their own. But I don’t think anyone in the thread has denied that. Plus, you have places like Captain Awkward, feminist blogger who’ll happily advise people of both genders who’re simply confused on how to get a date etc. What grinds our gears is when lonely guys think it’s somehow feminists fault that they’re lonely.”
O: Thanks for the blog reference; I’ll definitely check him out. He might not be, but he sounds like a similar blogger, Dr. Nerd Love, who I’ve had the chance to interact with; like many of you, he doesn’t have a very high opinion of the Manosphere writ large. I personally have no problem in the least with his mission of “helping the nerd get the girl” and wish him well in the effort; I DO question the viability of the advice he offers, and this is based on my listening to all of his podcasts to date, as well as spending some six months or so reading his blogposts. DNL seems to spend at least as much time outlining his bones of contention with the Manosphere, as much as he does advising nerdy guys as to how to get the girl.
But maybe Capt. Awkward will prove to be a better source. Again, I will definitely check it out – though, it’s been my experience, coming from the Black side, that “unisex” dating coaches and the like, tend in truth to be de facto coaches/experts *for Women*, and don’t really offer a heck of a lot *for Men*.
Now, to be clear, and again: none of you, or anyone else, *owes said lonely/clueless guys a darned thing*. It may be harsh and unfair, but in the eyes of many, mating ain’t a human right, at least insofar as guys go anyway. So, no, I don’t think you or anyone else here or anywhere else, “ought” to be doing anything for these guys.
Having said that though, no, I don’t agree with you when you say, “But no one has denied that” – it is quite clear from all the “chatter” in Feminist spaces, of which this is one, that they aren’t terribly concerned *what those guys do* – just that they have to get the heck outta here, so to speak. And again, I can respect that. I don’t think it’s any of your jobs to figure this out for those guys. Them’s the breaks.
Just…in a more kindler, gentler and more equitable world, such things WOULD get a bit more attention and thoughtful consideration than it currently does. Just thinking outloud.
“And regarding the whole consent thing, I said “if you’re uncertain just fucking ask”, but really, I don’t think verbally asking is necessary most of the time. It’s not like the normal way of having (hetero)sex includes a woman who just lies there and stare at the ceiling while the man does his best to telepathically find out whether she wants him to stick his dick into her or not. If you have sex that involves two (or more for that matter) enthusiastically participating people, you’re fine. When feminists stress that rape doesn’t have to involve physically forcing someone, they’re trying to draw attention to situations where the victim shut down and played dead because the situation was threatening despite no explicit threat haven been mentioned, which might happen, for instance, if the guy kept tearing at her clothes when she tries to take his hands away, kept ignoring her “no:s” until she gave up, kept going at her when she tried to turn away and so on. JUST DON’T BE THAT GUY and you’re pretty much in the clear, you know? It’s not complicated unless you WANT to complicate things by going “Oh but some women fantasize about a guy who doesn’t take no for an answer” yada yada yada.”
O: Understood, and I want to make this clear, that I do not truck with any of those examples; as far as I’m concerned, all it takes is one “no” for me to bounce altogether. If she’s interested, she’ll call to reschedule, and if not, them’s the breaks, kid.
So, just wanted to get that out there and on the record.
But – and there is a but – as a Man, I can tell you, that YES, it can be, and often IS, “that complicated”. Why? Because most Men simply don’t get “enthusiastic” consent like that. To be sure, some guys do, and good on them…but for most regular guys walking around? Nah.
Here again, I have to bring forward what I just posted – it is entirely possible to get such consent from a Woman who thinks you’re a catch, while you think she got caught by something. I know, I’ve been there, and this is why I can relate so much to the guys you’re talking about. Simply put, more attractive Women can afford to “play it cool” – I know that’s not something some here or related spaces may want to hear, but it’s true – and so, again, failing being a really hot guy in some way, the chances of her enthusiastically saying “YES!” are slim to none.
That doesn’t mean she won’t get down with you, but I honestly do think for a lot Women, who have more practice and experience with these kinds of things, reading body language and nonverbal communication and the like, it’s really hard for many of you to see how precious few guys simply don’t get all of that, because we just don’t think or communicate in those ways; and ironically enough, the pickup community discusses things like this quite a bit.
In any event, and responding to your “just ask” comment, I maintain what I said earlier – that for a not insignificant number of Women, such “asking” is a clitoral buzzkill. I’m just saying. And there really aren’t that many Men around who are good with reading body language and nonverbal communication, *of the female kind*, Dvar. I know that may sound utterly alien to you, but I’m telling you from the other side, it’s true.
“Seriously, I can’t believe how much some guys love to complicate things that really aren’t that complicated. I’ve had a ton of one night stands that didn’t involve the guy verbally asking “do you want to have sex?”, but neither did it involve me trying to say “no” and taking his hands away and the guy just ignoring it. (You know, I bet many of these situations could even be described as the guy “taking the lead”, and that’s fine, as long as you don’t ignore “no:s” and the woman taking your hands away or turning away etc.) It was two people enthusiastically making out, then taking each other’s clothes off, then having sex, and it didn’t require super-natural telepathy skills.”
O: Again, I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying here. I don’t know you, say I’ll just keep this general: Women will enthusiastically makeout with the guy if she thinks he’s hot enough. But most guys aren’t that hot, Dvar. Most guys have to “warm a Woman up”, hence dating and courting and the like. You’ve been on “a ton” of one night stands, well, most guys don’t.
And I’ve just pulled up Captain Awkward, and like I said, I’m definitely going to check *her* out, but I have to say I have my misgivings. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong…
O.
@KiKi:
“You’re right OF. What these men need is something like game – something that ‘makes rape unnecessary’.
Come on, feminists. Stop making rape ‘necessary’.”
O: Fair enough – but what you recommend they do? I am being dead serious. If Game is not the answer – what IS?
Thoughts?
O.
Wouldn’t his movies be more appropriate for children if he was called Jean Claude van Darn?
I had a friend who lived in Fargo. It’s really adorable there. It’s kind of boring though. If you like Scandanavian folk art it’s nice.
@Falconer:
“Wouldn’t his movies be more appropriate for children if he was called Jean Claude van Darn?”
O: I beg your pardon?
Listen…I’m trying to discuss these matters in good faith. At some point, these issues are going to have to be resolved, and it will take more than mere laws, though I do think they’re important, to do it. I’ve been highly critical of the Manosphere in the past and present; nevertheless, the Feminist spheres online and elsewhere aren’t exactly pristine either.
I’m trying to have a reasonable discussion about these issues. Can’t we even have that?
O.
Obsidian, seriously? Just masturbate. Or deal with no sex. You’re basically saying that its more important for you to get sex(with your dream women) than other people’s safety.
It’s really not that fucking hard. When in doubt, ask. What if she doesn’t like being asked? (I’ve honestly never heard of this. Only in bdsm or role play it would make sense, but then you would have planned it out beforehand and you should have a safe word anyways). Its better to maybe turn her off a bit then rape her. Again, you’re implying your boner is more important that her safety.
Just because you have some awkward situations in sex DOES NOT make harassment and rape “solutions”.
No you’re not, Mr. “Game makes rape unnecessary.”
The only issue here is the issue of entitlement to sexual gratification, and the resolution is that people stop feeling entitled to sexual gratification, because said entitlement denies people the right to say yes or no.
Holy false equivalence, batman.
No, you’re trying to filibuster. Unfortunately for you, this isn’t the Texas Lege, you’re not Wendy Davis, and this IS a mockery site. We don’t have a midnight deadline on making fun of you.
Also, if a woman is acting non enthusiastic and somehow gets offended by you asking, ditch her. This shit isn’t hard. You’re basically asking for loopholes in sex that make it ok to assault and rape, all because you’re putting your erection before everyone else’s well being.
Also are Orion and obsidian the same person? For some reason I thought they were. They both are man children though, so it’s easy to confuse.
Brz with his cool stories and OF sucking up all the oxygen? Wow.
OF, feminists don’t need to help “incel” whiners to get laid. Fuck off, rape apologist scuzzbucket.
No. Because you and guys like you are the reason we can’t have nice things.
Nothing about your appearances here suggests good faith on your part.
@Auggzillary:
“Obsidian, seriously?”
O: Deadly…
“Just masturbate. Or deal with no sex.”
O: These are just not good options *for Men* – otherwise, we wouldn’t be discussing this right now, because guys would be home jacking off, right? Or just joining up at the monastery in droves – right?
“You’re basically saying that its more important for you to get sex(with your dream women) than other people’s safety.”
O: Patently false. That is NOT what I’m saying at all.
“It’s really not that fucking hard.”
O: Sure, it is. For arguably millions of Men, it is. Have you ever tried to do what you’re talking about – *as a Man*? Because the only one I’ve known who has, does NOT hold the same view you and some others here and elsewhere seem to – Norah Vincent. Perhaps you’ve heard of her?
“When in doubt, ask. What if she doesn’t like being asked? (I’ve honestly never heard of this. Only in bdsm or role play it would make sense, but then you would have planned it out beforehand and you should have a safe word anyways).”
O: BDSM and the like aside – because that’s a very, very niche kind of thing – yes, there are indeed Women out there who will think you’re “off” as a guy if you ask “may I?” at every point in the seduction. For many Women – by no means all, heck, even most, I’ll play along – *its a huge turn on for a Man to “just know”*. Look it up in all the romance novels and the like if you don’t believe me.
“Its better to maybe turn her off a bit then rape her. Again, you’re implying your boner is more important that her safety.”
O: No, that is NOT what I am saying AT ALL; again, I repeat from upthread, since it seems pretty clear that you missed it: “O: Understood, and I want to make this clear, that I do not truck with any of those examples; as far as I’m concerned, all it takes is one “no” for me to bounce altogether. If she’s interested, she’ll call to reschedule, and if not, them’s the breaks, kid.”
“Just because you have some awkward situations in sex DOES NOT make harassment and rape “solutions”.”
O: Nor have I ever said otherwise; please see above.
Now – what suggestions do you have for those guys? Pickup is out. Fine. We’ve already addressed the harassment and rape questions – fair enough and rightly so.
So…what do these guys do to actually attract Women? Where do they go? How do they do it?
Do you even know? Do you even care?
Again, these are very serious questions. They deserve serious consideration as well.
O.
Nope. Not my problem. Don’t know, don’t care.
Fuck, that was easy. Got any more “serious questions,” fucknut?
@Hellkell:
“OF, feminists don’t need to help “incel” whiners to get laid. Fuck off, rape apologist scuzzbucket.”
O: Good morning Ms. Hellkell, how are you?
“No. Because you and guys like you are the reason we can’t have nice things.”
O: Such as…? What am I preventing you from having?
“Nothing about your appearances here suggests good faith on your part.”
O: Funny; Dave didn’t say that in email exchanges I’ve had with him in the past…
O.
So, you’ve emailed David, that’s nifty. I think we all have.
@Hellkell:
“Nope. Not my problem. Don’t know, don’t care.”
O: So much for the idea of Women being so “empathetic”…
“Fuck, that was easy. Got any more “serious questions,” fucknut?”
O: Yes – just how many swear words can you spew out of that hole in your head that passes for a mouth?
Just curious…
O.
@Hellkell:
“So, you’ve emailed David, that’s nifty. I think we all have.”
O: So what. Try again.
O.
This isn’t a dating site, fuckwit. This is a misogyny mocking site. We’re not here to sort out the Oh So Important Issue of men’s boners, those MILLIONS of sadboners you seem to know all about and which are SO unresponsive to masturbation. Strange how you’re so anti-masturbation when you’re such a wanker.
You’re not entitled to sex. Nobody is. Your claim that nobody is entitled to food or shelter or any other necessities of life shows again what a scumbag you are. Fine. Go without all of them and see how long your obsession with getting your dick wet lasts. You might just discover there are more important things in life.
Fuck you, you fucking pestilent fuck. Now do be a dear and fuck the fuck right off. Fucking thanks.
My language is not the issue here, dude.
Where are women supposed to be more empathetic to the suffering of dudes who can’t laid? Not our problem, but turds like you keep trying to make it our problem. Why should we care?
Oh, because otherwise you’ll threaten coersion and rape? Fuck you.
Oooh, big tough man’s upset that a woman’s swearing at him!
I’ll let Ms. Millie Jackson handle the reply to OF:
@Falconer:
“No you’re not, Mr. “Game makes rape unnecessary.””
O: Yes, I am; and as for Game, it doesn’t – why does that bother you so much? One of the first things one learns in Game teaching and instruction is if the Woman gives any signal or sign, verbal or otherwise, DON’T try to convince her, DON’T try to cajole her, just bounce. End of.
“The only issue here is the issue of entitlement to sexual gratification, and the resolution is that people stop feeling entitled to sexual gratification, because said entitlement denies people the right to say yes or no.”
O: I think you mean “Men”, right? After all, we really don’t mean “Women” by your remark, although I know, for a fact that Women can be every bit as entitled to sex, and act very badly when they don’t get it. I’ve written about this, in fact.
Having said all that though, I do agree with you, and said as much above in my personal story from my past. I fully agree with the idea that no one owes anyone else a relationship, sexual or otherwise.
“Holy false equivalence, batman.”
O: How so? Are you going to seriously tell me that the Feminists’ stuff don’t stink just a little bit? Come on.
“No, you’re trying to filibuster. Unfortunately for you, this isn’t the Texas Lege, you’re not Wendy Davis, and this IS a mockery site. We don’t have a midnight deadline on making fun of you.”
O: Have at it! It only drives home the point all that much more – that you guys aren’t terribly interested in *doing* anything either…
O.
@Hellkell:
“Fuck you, you fucking pestilent fuck. Now do be a dear and fuck the fuck right off. Fucking thanks.”
O: Zzzzzzz
“My language is not the issue here, dude.”
O: It absolutely effin is – dudette…
“Where are women supposed to be more empathetic to the suffering of dudes who can’t laid? Not our problem, but turds like you keep trying to make it our problem. Why should we care?”
O: For the same reason(s) why people like you keep trying to tell me why I should care about some Goth chick getting the business while walking down the street? *shrugs*
“Oh, because otherwise you’ll threaten coersion and rape? Fuck you.”
O: Yawn. Curb your #Outrage, please; that is soo overrated…
O.
Why should feminists do anything to help men get laid?
ONCE AGAIN, you are back with your constant refrain of drawing false equivalencies and wanting others to do your work.
You want to help men get their dicks wet? Fine, go. Seriously, as long as it’s not coersive or rapey, I don’t give a blue fuck WHAT you do.
Just stop whining for others to do it. Man, that is unseemly.
@HellKell:
Millie Jackson! Wow, I’m impressed.
For bonus points, and next time, try hitting me with a lil Dolemite/Rudy Ray Moore…
O.
One’s about being a decent human being, the other isn’t. Guess which is which, you dishonest fuck?
Everyone has the right to walk down the street unharassed. Not everyone has the right to get laid.
OF: I really have zero fucks to give about points from you. I probably have forgotten more music than you know.
@Auggzillary:
“Also, if a woman is acting non enthusiastic and somehow gets offended by you asking, ditch her. This shit isn’t hard. You’re basically asking for loopholes in sex that make it ok to assault and rape, all because you’re putting your erection before everyone else’s well being.”
O: No, I’m not. Please see my quotes on this matter upthread.
What I’m asking you is how should these guys go about meeting and attracting ladies in the manner you and others here think appropriate?
You were saying…?
“Also are Orion and obsidian the same person? For some reason I thought they were. They both are man children though, so it’s easy to confuse.”
O: Can’t say I know the guy (Orion); and why do you say that I’m a child?
O.
@Hellkell:
“OF: I really have zero fucks to give about points from you.”
O: Which explains why you keep responding…riiight…
“I probably have forgotten more music than you know.”
O: I doubt it…
O.
You think romance novels are how women like sex? Those books are *fantasy*. Just like bdsm and role play are like living out a fantasy.
If a woman is acting super ambiguous about enjoying it, and then suddenly gets offended because you asked if she was OK with sex, well first off, that probably means she’s ok with sex, secondly, so what?
Also, what is wrong with masturbation? are you delusional? Most people masturbate and are fine with it. Dealing with no sex is not the same as choosing to be abstinent forever. You just choose to not creep out everyone with “how can I get laid when women think I’m a rapist?” and don’t blame all women or feminism for your “problem”.
There are like a billion ways to find dates without being a creepy asshole. Yet you think that the only way to flirt is through harassment.
@Hellkell:
“One’s about being a decent human being, the other isn’t. Guess which is which, you dishonest fuck?”
O: Wait – so you care about people unrelated to you, *all the time*? Really?
“Everyone has the right to walk down the street unharassed. Not everyone has the right to get laid.”
O: Well, that depends, now doesn’t it? After all, what that Goth chick consisders “harassment” another lady just might like – which is why I’m all for the passing of laws concerning street harassment, if only to see how it all plays itself out.
As for getting laid – again, you’re conflating douches with decent albeit clueless guys. I am asking you about the latter. How do you suggest we address them, since you don’t think very highly of pickup?
Your response?
O.
Obsidian Files, you really don’t have to make things that complicated.
Suppose you really wanted to go bowling, but nobody else you like wants to go bowling with you. Would you drag someone kicking and screaming to the bowling alley just so you didn’t have to bowl alone? Would you take someone who might not put up much of a physical resistance, but won’t speak to you the whole time because they really didn’t want to come? You’d be a jackass if you did.
So what could you do? Well, you can always just go bowling by yourself. Or, if you really want to bowl with others, you could join a league, or meet up with people online, or see if anybody at the bowling alley would let you join their game.
Just use that same kind of logic when it comes to sex. Seriously, it’s not that different. Forcing someone to do something they really don’t want to do just to satisfy you almost never ends well.
Also, if you think not being able to get dates as a heterosexual male is awful, imagine if you were homosexual or trans or otherwise outside the gender binary where the options are a lot more limited just based on numbers. Do you imagine for a second that a gay guy should have as much right to having his boner pleased by someone else as you seem to think a hetero guy should?
The clueless dudes are none of my concern.
And yes, I can manage to care about people unrelated to me. It’s not that hard to most.
Where are these women who dig catcalls?
You read it here, folks, OF said that being a decent person is just too haaaaard. It may result in boners being sad. Oh, the huge manatee!
@Auggzillary:
“You think romance novels are how women like sex? Those books are *fantasy*. Just like bdsm and role play are like living out a fantasy.”
O: Tell that to the multi-billion dollar per year romance novel business…
“If a woman is acting super ambiguous about enjoying it, and then suddenly gets offended because you asked if she was OK with sex, well first off, that probably means she’s ok with sex, secondly, so what?”
O: Well, for one thing, per you and others’ recommendations, the guy is supposed to listen to what she actually said – right? I know I would; it just ain’t worth it for me to try to figure out “what she really meant”.
“Also, what is wrong with masturbation? are you delusional? Most people masturbate and are fine with it.”
O: Again, if that were true, especially when it comes, pardon the pun, to guys, this entire issue would be a nonstarter, because most guys would be jacking off instead of being clumsy around Women in a vain attempt to pick them up, right? Clearly, in the minds of many Men, jacking off is a less attractive option to having sex with a Woman. Make of that what you will…
“Dealing with no sex is not the same as choosing to be abstinent forever.”
O: How do you know? Something that could start out under the rubric of it only being temporary, could very well wind up running on for years and years.
“You just choose to not creep out everyone with “how can I get laid when women think I’m a rapist?” and don’t blame all women or feminism for your “problem”.”
O: OK, no argument with any of that.
“There are like a billion ways to find dates without being a creepy asshole. Yet you think that the only way to flirt is through harassment.”
O: No, I don’t. I am asking you to list out just a few of those “billion ways” – please?
Come on, just a few.
O.
@Hellkell:
“The clueless dudes are none of my concern./And yes, I can manage to care about people unrelated to me. It’s not that hard to most.”
O: Contradiction much?
“Where are these women who dig catcalls?”
O: Outside…
“You read it here, folks, OF said that being a decent person is just too haaaaard.”
O: That is a lie.
“It may result in boners being sad. Oh, the huge manatee!”
O: Personally, I have better things to do than “holla” at Women on the street…
O.
OF, you may be confused. This a site that mocks misogyny, not 101 Dating Tips for Clueless Dudes and Sadboners.
Why should we give dating tips again? Do you think that we all were born knowing how to connect with people?
Once again we have it, ObtuseFuck thinks not getting laid is equivalent to sexual harassment.
No, I meant people. Men and women can act entitled to sex. Men and women can commit sexual assault, sexual battery, rape, etc. It’s just, statistically speaking, the majority of people who commit sexual crimes are men, and so therefore you think you have grounds to nudge nudge, wink wink at me about what I really meant.
… So why all the nudge nudge, wink wink say no more last paragraph?
And will you please for the love of god stop capitalizing “men” and “women?” They aren’t proper nouns, this language we’re speaking isn’t German, and this isn’t some epic saga legend thing.
Some feminists’ stuff stinks. ALL of the manosphere’s stuff stinks ALL THE TIME. If you say there are moderate MRAs, we ask (as we get so weary of asking) where are they?
Did you miss that this was a mockery site, not an advocacy site?