Long Weekend Open Thread
Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
Posted on July 5, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 1,365 Comments.
@Kittehs: AAAAAAAIIIIGH!
Oh, hell, is Oblivious still here? Yeesh, is he going for the merit badge in tediousness?
Argenti, I can’t remember, was there a question about how long people lurked before their first post?
I dunno for what. All we did was haul them out of their crib early on a Saturday and drive for about an hour. She even slept most of that way! And then we changed ‘em and fed ‘em and THEN I snapped that photo.
He got a 24-hour time-out. So almost an entire Sunday free of his HOW DO WE REEEEELY KNOW FER SUUURE schtick.
All right, I said Avernum and dammit, I mean Avernum.
Niters!
Niters, Falconer!
I wonder how it would turn out if a woman went to The Spearhead or AVfM and complained that they should drop everything to teach women how to attract sexy men. They would probably dox her and threaten her family.
The “May I insert my penis into your vagina line?” would probably work better than most of the PUA tricks. At least it’s to the point, and not annoying like negs, kino, and goofy hats.
I think the worst is when you say you’re married, he says “Where’s he at? I’ll kick his ass”, and then he laughs like a jackass. Come on, it’s not funny, it’s just ridiculous.
“Argenti, I can’t remember, was there a question about how long people lurked before their first post?”
No, and with no ability to do open ended questions idk that it’d matter (and 1640 results! I am so glad I don’t have to sort through open ended replies!)
‘Night Falconer!
It’s a good thing I don’t run this place, I’d let him comment but randomly replace bits of his comments with MY PENIS IS SAD and WHO CARES IF THERE ARE PEOPLE STARVING, SOME FEMALE ON THE SUBWAY DIDN’T WANT TO MATE WITH ME.
RE: Ally S
Pretty much with tumblr, if you can imagine ANY sort of hare-brained privilege explanation for ANYTHING, you will find it there. A lot of people have NO bullshit detector either, and it’s lousy for discussion, so a lot of circle-jerking can ensue.
And forgive me if this sounds very silly for me to ask, but do you have a problem with identity politics in general, or do you just hate how it’s done on Tumblr?
It’s not silly at all! And the answer is… it’s complicated? Like I realize that a lot of identities are inherently political–I mean, I make mental health comics that are sometimes considered radical purely because I postulate that multiplicity isn’t inherently bad. I also realize that for a lot of people, hanging out with similar identities is a life-saver–after all, the online plural community helped me a LOT, in the early days.
That said, it bothers me a lot how there seems to be this free-floating idea (and not just on tumblr) that as long as one sticks to members of your own subculture, you’re ‘safe.’ I mean, maybe it’s just because I splatter across the queer/trans/multi/homeless/mentally ill arenas, but there is NO subculture that I feel truly safe in. In the queer groups, I’m “that trans guy,” in the trans groups, I’m “that crazy guy,” in the comics groups, I’m “that poor girl, and I think she’s gay or something?” Even my beloved plural community exploded in a vicious troll-cycle in 2010, and I left and have pretty much never returned. I have minor fame in the online plural community, but I no longer want anything to do with it.
In my experience, such cloisters are homogenous breeding grounds for codependence and abuse, and people will just keep splitting hairs to find something to lord over. I myself want nothing to do with them, and I find the glorification of them completely antithetical to my experience.
thebionicmommy – and coming from the right person* he could wear a goofy hat as well, and it’d still be funny and sexy!
But of course women as individuals with individual personalities, tastes and (gasp) senses of humour is a concept PUAs will never acknowledge, because it shows their shit for what it is. They can’t even handle the idea that men are also individuals, and a man who’s attractive to one other person won’t be attractive to another. They have to universalise everything from their (made-up?) experiences.
I could accept and enjoy something from Person A** that would be repellent and get a flat rejection from Person B, because of who I am and because of who they are.
*no prizes for guessing who
**ditto
RE: CassandraSays
Yyyyyup. My general formula for tumblr slacktivism:
1. Make vague statement of oppression.
2. State decision to do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about this.
3. Break arm patting self on back.
@LBT – “Even my beloved plural community exploded in a vicious troll-cycle in 2010, and I left and have pretty much never returned. I have minor fame in the online plural community, but I no longer want anything to do with it.”
Shit, that’s rotten. I’m sorry that happened. :(
There really needs to be a social justice for cats tumblr. Because cats are THE MOST OPPRESSED EVAH.
I only follow Tumblrs that are fashion/nature/goth themed, and then only images. The more text, the less likely I am to follow. Oh and Moby has a cool architecture Tumblr.
OMFG I was so excited for several pages of comments and then it was just Obtuse Files bloviating on for a bazillion words /headdesk/ Well, at least he got a miniban, and maybe foreverban? I’m just gonna sit here and hope for permaban, because christ on a cracker, that dude is just so boringly awful.
That said, your babies are sooo cuuuuute, Falconer! I want some toooooo <3
Well, to be honest those aren’t really my strong suits. Blame it on my ADD, baby.
I can’t see any failures from here.
That’s the way I do it…
So you say.
@LBT
Ah, I see what you mean now. Thanks for explaining. I agree that identity-specific groups can (ironically and unfortunately) be alienating. It’s similar (although not equivalent) to how it feels like to be alienated among people who ostensibly have liberal views just like mine (I’m looking at you, movement atheism!).
I was just wondering because most criticisms of identity politics I’ve seen, at least among fellow anarchists, boil down to “Well, yeah, that’s bad, but let’s ignore the form of oppression that affects you because tearing down the state is the most important thing, and if you try to ask to be treated like an equal, you’re breaking up solidarity!” But what you’ve said is about the only reasonable criticism of identity politics I’ve ever seen, and I’m sorry you had to deal with all of that crap from groups you’re supposed to feel safe in.
dustydeste, seconding all that. First it was “I don’t support rape because I don’t need to rape, because GAME (which is essentially rape but we won’t mention that)” then it was “blame women for rapists’ future actions”. Yeah, dude’s totally not a misogynist, how dare we say so! And the fucking Great Wall of Tedious Creepery in between.
::prays to Ceiling Cat for permaban::
Yeah, that “blaming rape victims for rapists’ futurerapes” bit was waaaay over the fucking line, even without the continued creepitude. And the tedium, dear god, the tedium of even just scrolling past his Great Wall o’ Texts. Just no.
Even without the alienation, identity politics (or just groups) can be inadvertently alienating, I think, if you don’t feel like you fit the description, or perhaps prescription. Minor example: I quit reading the Aven forums after a very little while, because the whole asexuality thing just wasn’t how I saw myself (plus the I found the terms grey-a and demisexual obscurely irritating).
Ceiling cat — 62
Basement cat — 34
Great furred ones — 17
Am not calculating cross over unless you guys really want to know!
“Even without the [deliberate] alienation, identity politics (or just groups) can be inadvertently
alienatingoff-putting, I think,”Argh. Wrods, I rite them gud.
ALL HAIL FURRED GODS OF WHATEVER VARIETY
memo to self: must think up pithier catchphrase
Yeah, it took a lot of words to get to his true self–a victim blaming asshole. That reeked of so much privilege, I almost passed out from the fumes.
SittieKitty: Did you literally just blame me for any future crimes he commits?
Yes, he did. I wish he wasn’t the only fuckmuppet to pull that shit. I had to deal with a guy who was being more egregious with it (because he was using her “putting her safety above that of others) to try and prove that women who don’t “give a complete, and unequivocal NO” are therefore actually consenting.
Let’s just say I was less than gentle with him. But he’s the dude who is also the most tedious commenter I have ever seen online (which is saying a lot).
He said that because he can. He’s lashing out to hurt you. He knows it will do that. There’s no shame in it, not for you.
A decent human being wouldn’t have done it. Then again, a decent human being wouldn’t be a huge proponent of Game.
Ad I’m done with the disability v feeling accepted data. You all
suckrock. After having to change my damned method for the first time in, um, 30 tests, y’all remain in the “these groups feel equally accepted” or “the minority group feel more accepted” (note that more accepted doesn’t mean the majority group doesn’t feel accepted)…nor, for that matter does the reverse — which is why I’ve been eyeballing the results!)RE: Kittehserf
It’s okay. It was a valuable object lesson, I think, in how toxic dynamics in a very small, insular community can be. And don’t get me wrong, I made many beloved plural friends from that time who’re still my friends today. It just forced me to grow up a bit and realize that my community was just as flawed and vicious as any other.
I admit that the word ‘demisexual’ was very valuable for me, but that’s because the only other words I had for how I behaved were ‘frigid’ and ‘impotent.’ I have ace and Gray-A friends, but I’ve not been in the ace community much. (I hear the fight du jour over there is between ace and gray-A over there. NO PATIENCE.)
RE: Ally S
Oh, don’t even get me STARTED on movement atheism. Ugh.
I guess my main critique of identity politics are that they’re not intersectional ENOUGH. It’s fine if you’re JUST gay, or JUST kinky, but once you start mixing other shit in–you’re gay AND black, you’re an atheist AND working class–you’ll get the exact same shit, in a different flavor.
Oh holy… WTF?!?
SittieKitty, I don’t even know what to say.
I’ll add my hope that Oblivious Fucknut gets a permaban upgrade.
Yeah, on that intersectional note, my brain and mac may regret saying this, but any pairs you want me to run against the acceptance data?
I’m for banning the disingenous sack of four-day old snake puke.
Glad to hear that, LBT.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying the terms demisexual or grey-A are ghastly or shouldn’t be used or anything, just that they don’t appeal to me. They have a sort of glass-half-empty feel *for me*. Sure as hell better than frigid or impotent or any of those gross terms, though!
Plus demisexual makes me think of demitasse or Demi Moore, and grey-A makes me think of hair needing colouring (is it that time of month again already?).
Skeptical Sexist Bingo (since the massive Enema Wash brought up Ev-Psych)
@LBT
Honestly, I’m shocked to hear what you have to say, even though I believe you. I thought that third-wave feminism’s inclusion of intersectionality recently exited its premature stage i.e. I thought that full, genuine intersectionality was almost a given among social justice folks. And I thought that as a trans* girl. What a damn shame.
Argenti, how many trans* women feel accepted by this place?
Hmm…there aren’t very many of you, but if I collapse the agree side and disagree side…give me a minute.
I ran collapsed cis men/women v everyone else, and both cis men v not them or cis women and cis women v not them or cis men — they produce slightly different results for general acceptance and by peers but no difference here. But let me try it with just trans* women versus cis men/women (there’s no difference between the two in acceptance here, but I can run versus cis women if you’d prefer?)
Sure, cis women. I think this place is very welcoming for trans* women (I mean, I’m only speaking for myself in a way, but that’s how I see things so far), but I’m interested in hearing the statistics of MB acceptance compared to cis women.
Thanks pecunium, gillyrosebee. I mean, I’ve heard it before, it’s a pretty freaking common victim-blaming trope, but still… It’s seriously just such an awful thing to say to someone. I don’t know how people can think that reporting something helps prevent future victims without a single thought given toward how that affects current victims, how shitty trying to report shit is. It’s just so beyond me.
Oooooh! Mememememe! I have only the most rudimentary, seat of the pants statistics comprehension, and would appreciate the opportunity to understand better!
Me too. That I had to deal with watching it twice in one day… angry making. To the point of having to get Argenti to second look a comment I was already having concerns about (because it might have looked as if I was dismissing the feelings of a rape victim: I’m still half expecting someone to accuse me of not giving him the same treatment I would a woman who was raped, but I can’t help that).
I’m sorry he chose to do it. I suppose I’m glad he did it here, where you have some support.
That’s still a cold comfort.
Agreed. But remember, it is much more important that he tell the TRUTH, no matter how much it hurts (actually, I’m convinced there’s a bonus in it for him if he does hurt someone). He’s just misunderstood, you know? And it’s really not fair at all for us to expect him to show empathy or basic human decency to someone whose attractiveness he has not had the opportunity to properly evaluate and rate for fuckability.
Moreover, aside from the book “The Rules” Women have long had certain “rules” they employed on Men to get whatever they wanted out of them; they don’t call it “feminine wiles” for nothing. Studies have shown that Women can and will use their sex appeal to gain favors from Men that they had no intention of sleeping with; some Women will even use their sex appeal to get dinners and nights out on the town and then abscond toward the end of the evening.
I’m late to this party, but this line of thinking only makes sense if you believe that in going to dinner with a man a woman is ipso facto assenting to sex with him afterward.
Perhaps what women are “getting” out of dinner (those wiley minxes) is a chance to get to know someone better in order to determine whether they’d make a suitable sexual or romantic. Can’t imagine why women abscond at the end of a date with you, Obsidian.
^wily
RE: Ally S
I thought that full, genuine intersectionality was almost a given among social justice folks.
Lolz. No. In my experience, they are SOOOOO not. At best, I’ve seen folks who talk big, and yet are so perplexed as to why they seem entirely made up of white college-educated folks. Like, I really hope I’m wrong, just because I hate being this jaded, but… no.
RE: SittieKitty
Yeah, I’m sorry you had to hear that. I’ve gotten shit like that too, and it’s never fun. I hope you’re okay.
The stats crash course is in the footnotes, over this way — https://docs.google.com/document/d/1lN4Ub-WvYKaRaNrcBl1vIpb1fKeYSwZTkB5Ion-qfkU/mobilebasic
And Ally, there’s no significant difference between cis and trans* women feeling accepted by peers, here, or in general. But apply huge amounts of salt, even collapsing the agree and disagree options…well, for here, 16 trans* women checked an agree option, 15 neither agree nor disagree, and 2 disagree (that 2 is the lowest of the disagree columns though — less trans* women disagree with feeling accepted here than they disagree with feeling accepted by peers or in general)
That sentence is one nightmare! More trans* women checked agree for acceptance by peers, and in general. We have the highest count for “neither agree nor disagree” but like I said, these values are TINY. (And FTR, we have the most “neither…” for cis women too)
So bearing in mind that I will not give an N of 36 the rubber stamp of approval, there doesn’t appear to be a difference.
@Argenti
That’s unfortunate that the results aren’t as reliable as desired, but it’s at least nice to hear that, even with such a small sample size, there’s a very small difference. ^_^
@LBT
Now I understand why there are so many womanists out there. I mean, I’ve certainly never had a problem with womanists, but for the longest time I thought “Hey, why is womanism still around? I see a lot of talk about women of color among feminists now!”
Oh, naivety, you’re such a pest.
I should perhaps note that I ran cis women v cis men and the difference in acceptance by peers is significant, and the difference in acceptance in general is approaching significance. So part of it is that cis women aren’t feeling terribly accepted compared to cis men (except here, there’s no statistical difference here [nor between either cis men or women and the collapsed "everyone not cis" group])
pecunium, I’m sorry you had to deal with that twice today :( that sucks…
gillyrosebee, well he rates a 10/10 on my gofuckyourselfbility. So there’s that.
Thanks LBT, I’m in a good place right now, so it didn’t have the impact it could have. Last week wouldn’t have gone over so well. I guess it’s just one of those things people do, especially since I’m sure they assume things about my experience that aren’t accurate and that informs on how “easy” they think shit is to do.
Personally, I think there’s a real need for some sort of positive approach to teach men who are socially challenged or disabled how to negotiate that in the dating world and find a partner. Providing these men with a systematic but constructive approach to fulfilling their sexual/romantic desires and a “safe space” where they could talk about their issues with other men would be something I’d welcome. I’ve seen the consequences of there not being anything like this; they’re real, and I genuinely feel sorry for some men I’ve met who have a lot to offer a partner but are simply lost when it comes to navigating the often complex social codes around dating and courtship. Some of the loudest outcries I’ve heard against the sexual liberation of women have been from these types of guys, and it makes sense if you consider the fact that the clear cut and simple “rules” and roles that they imagine used to exist don’t anymore.
Game is not the antidote to this.
One of the biggest gripes I have with “Game” is that the techniques it teaches are exactly the last thing that any young man who has serious social challenges to overcome should be advised to use. I think what the less virulent strains of Game are trying to teach is charm and playfulness, the sort of flirtatious behavior that comes naturally to some. But of course, in the wrong hands, social moves that would come across as teasing can turn really ugly. Someone who already has a hard time understanding appropriate social boundaries *does not* need to be told that violating them deliberately is the best way to get dates. (Telling someone they have food on their face and laughing a little is different from telling someone they look desperate in their short skirt, for example. Very different.). Also, even if the techniques are simply snake oil that gives the socially awkward the confidence to go out there and take social risks, many socially disabled men would not have the ability to handle “hook up” culture and would ultimately be putting themselves in situations that could end up hurting them more than it does their “conquests”… then they retreat farther into Game to soothe their wounded pride. It really seems damaging to everyone involved, from what I’ve seen.
RE: Ally S
for the longest time I thought “Hey, why is womanism still around? I see a lot of talk about women of color among feminists now!”
Yeah, talking ABOUT is not the same as talking WITH. I realize I’m sounding like a massive downer here, when a lot of these subcultures are wonderful for people, but yeah. I’m a bitter old man, and I’ve seen too much in-fighting. (Oh, Sylvia Rivera…)
Obsidian-whatever really made me not want to read this thread anymore. His boringness was bad enough that it made me really not want to participate in what otherwise might have been fun conversation with cool kitties. . . but then he . . . yuck.
Good to know that he’s gone and I hope he doesn’t get to come back.
SittyKittie: it’s what it is. It’s been an exhausting day, and that’s only part of it. Basically (as I said before, but it was in the ObsFlake’s wallsotext so it may have been lost), am in a debate of the sort we have here, but it’s not here.
So the support is a lot less; the disingenuous is a lot more, the arguments are at least as stupid as the MRA, while being not MRA (and the MRA who did show up were barely called on their shit), Strawfeminsists everywhere (all men are rapists, no man is good,all sex is rape, Andrea Dowrkin is a player, one word fro a woman and it’s curtains, flirting will be outlawed), couple to all the usual goalpost moving.
I also have no rep, so I got called a dishonest actor, a liar, a hypocrite. Some good interaction was had (but the level of, “you need to do the work for me was painful: esp. because [of course] people had done the work, but they needed to be spoon fed). References were ignored, personal testimony was discounted (he, after all, doesn’t believe the levels of reported harassment are true, ergo it’s overblown to the point of being completely discredited).
He even (are you listening Obsidian) explained why a woman who tells you she has a partner/boyfriend/husband, isn’t really turning you down: there are lots of poly-people in SF/F fandom; she might just be letting you know she’s going to be spending some time with him.
And while the woman who had been raped when she was younger (young: no, younger than that; even younger) victim was told she was culpable for any other women her rapist vicitmised, he has no responsibility for any of the actions of someone he sees being creepy/harrassing to a woman: unless that woman asks him to help her.
Gah.. I’m sorry to unloading all this crap on you guys, but unless I pile it on Argenti, there isn’t really anyone else who can understand just what it’s like.
but it’s time limited. The blog owner says he’s capping it at 900 comments, and it’s 850 right now.
and now I think I shall take a strong dose of malarial prevention medicine.
I have to say that, for all the soul-sucking of that thread, it helped me clarify some things about convention culture, and rape cover, and the meme of “socially awkward” .
So not all bad. I think I did some good writing. So not wasted, but a lot less fun than doing it here.
RE: pecunium
Yyyyyup. What you describe is pretty familiar to me. (All those broody geek boys who wanted into our pants apparently were very, very defensive of our rapist, even if they personally disliked him.) Funny, how women are supposed to be entirely responsible for people raping them, but their rapists aren’t expected to be responsible for anything at all.
In other news: WOO BADASS FREDERICK DOUGLAS SPEECH!
<3 that is awful pecunium! hugs if you want them. It's terrible to have to deal with any of those issues individually, let alone all together and without any support like here. I don't mind you venting it here, it's awful to have to sit on that all alone.
Oh… I forgot the best part. The dude who was ‘splainy about how being told, “I have a partner” doesn’t mean she’s not interested, was also arguing what women need to do is 1: make an unequivocal NO, and 2: take the time to explain to the guys who make creepy advances on them why it was wrong, so they would no better in the future.
That’s without his going all Frist on me and saying my level of risk assessment sound like PTSD, he’s not a professional, but that’s what it looks like.
I don’t think he realises how restrained I was.
LBT That was a great speech. I love me some Frederick Douglass. NYC has three statues of him.
You know, this is why I end up here again and again. I like to read other places, and I post from time to time, but for all the disclaimers about this not being a safe space, this is a community that does not tolerate fucknuttery and I love that.
Sittie, I am beyond glad that you are in a good enough place that you are able to let that crap roll off.
pecunium, would a slow loris eating a banana help at all?
“Gah.. I’m sorry to unloading all this crap on you guys, but unless I pile it on Argenti, there isn’t really anyone else who can understand just what it’s like.”
Dude, I’ve spent two days unloading MATH on you, email dump at me!
I don’t think I’ve seen film of lorises before, just pics. They look like an adorable cross between a bear and a monkey. :)
LBT: If you are in NYC, we can certainly find space to work on your keyboard.
yeah gillyrosebee, I’m really glad about that too (especially since I spent last week battling with myself about whether it was worth the effort to get out of bed or not). I’m also glad it was me instead of someone who might not be in the same space.
pecunium, fuck that shit. I wish it was good enough that you don’t have to do a risk assessment when you move about in the world, but unfortunately it’s not the reality. I don’t understand why anyone thinks it’s okay to do something to someone else without a “yes”. A lack of a no isn’t the same thing as a yes. I don’t know why that is hard to understand.
Very few spaces are any good at intersectionality, honestly. You don’t have to be far off the assumed norm in any given space to notice the ways in which assumptions are being made and what they mean about who the people who’re speaking think is reading. Example! In lots of feminists spaces that consider themselves kink-friendly I’ve run into the assumption that woman + kinky = submissive, and significant pushback/annoyance/will you just shut up so everyone else can bond any time I try to point out that not all kinky women are subs. There’s a weirdly pervasive patterns where whenever someone says “assumption X is not actually true for everyone here” people get defensive and respond with “how dare you suggest that there’s something wrong with people for whom assumption X is true?”, even when that wasn’t what was said.
Pecunium, holy fuck that guy is an asshole. I’ve read a couple of threads on Popehat (for which I curse you), and he popped up all over the place with the same schtick.
“I didn’t say that. You misunderstand me. Several of you have misunderstood me in the exact same way so you must all be similarly lacking. I would never do that thing that I just did that you are accusing me of.” Tedious, disingenuous, and seems to take a great deal of pleasure in playing vocabulary games with other people’s pain.
Also, he implied (in one of those other threads) that he’s a lawyer, and has been in a great many fist fights, and therefore his opinion on the Zimmerman trial is totally credible (he actually started off sounding reasonable, and then derailed himself because he just can’t bring himself to be wrong or uninformed about anything. Douche!)
Anyway, toward the end there, you write this, which I greatly appreciate:
SittieKitty – probably saying something you already know, but these guys do understand it. They are as capable of reading an indirect or nonverbal “no” as women are. They simply don’t like the answer.
FTR, I prefer working on the floor. Harder to lose screws that way (not that I haven’t lost mine…)
*kicks firefox* stop it, err, do it, err, WORK DAMN YOU