Long Weekend Open Thread
Like a lot of people in the US of A, I am taking a long weekend. Posting may be a little light for a bit. So here’s an open thread for everyone else taking a long weekend. Or not. Use this thread for anything that’s not personal. Like misogyny, politics, kitties, you know the drill. (Though kitties are welcome in all threads, of course.)
I am hoping my long weekend turns out a bit better than that of the people in the Australian movie of that name from 1978, which I keep meaning to see. Apparently their little beach vacation doesn’t go so well, and they are attacked by … nature? At one point, I believe, they face off against an enraged dugong. (No, really.) The movie was recently remade, but apparently the remake wasn’t as good.
Stay tuned for more reviews of movies I haven’t seen and that I’m just giving vague impressions of based on things I’ve heard somewhere.
Posted on July 5, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 1,365 Comments.
Also, I wish puas would drop the tired “game is no worse than women’s beauty advice” bullshit. It’s a false equivalence. The equivalent of women’s beauty advice is men’s beauty advice. The female equivalent of pua would be advice aimed at women designed to trick guys into sexual/romantic relationships (and before some pua shouts “but what about Cosmo!”, plenty of feminists think the dating “advice” in Cosmo is horrible).
@BS:
“Ah, the good old “PUA is just guys learning how to dress better and workout, why do feminists have a problem with it???” tactic. You’re trying to deflect people’s complaints by making PUA sound innocent and harmless. But that argument falls apart. People aren’t complaining about men dressing nicer or working out, they’re complaining about the the blurring of consent, the manipulative power games, the objectification and presentation of sex with women as some conquest to be achieved. They’re complaining about the promotion of the idea that a man’s desire to have sex with a woman is more important than the woman’s time, physical space or desire to be left alone.”
O: And there are remedies for all of that – prosecute. In fact, given the sheer number of PUAs in the States abroad, and given how so many of you seem to be of the view that Game is “rape by any other name” that there hasn’t been a spate of PUAs getting locked up by now. Neil Strauss’ book “The Game” has been out for about eight years now; one has to just wonder why the law hasn’t put PUAs behind bars for raping Women and what not…
And yes, there are quite a few people, Women and Men both, who have problems with certain guys “stepping out of their place” and improving themselves. I’ve seen it firsthand, and have seen it play itself out online too.
“If PUA was just fashion and confidence tips, nobody would be complaining about it, but it’s not. It is, at best, repackaged self-help tips wrapped up in a shitload of misogyny, pseudoscience and unhealthy attitudes.”
O: None of which, was illegal last time I checked…
O.
True and says nothing. Because the big difference is in what we espouse to others, the way we treat racial issues, the understanding we have of race and privilege, and intersectionality. You pointing this out doesn’t really change/prove anything… and if your intention was just to say it out loud, I do believe Argenti beat you to it.
Ah, I see we’ve reached the “you bitches just want to keep the ugly men down!” stage of the conversation. I’m amazed that Eurosabra hasn’t showed up yet. Maybe it’s like PUA Highlander.
Thanks pecunium, wtf is Denmark then?
“I know, I know, you guys aren’t racists – we’ll see about that, in due course…”
Ran that set of data versus the question on acceptance last night, apparently none of the minorities around here feel less accepted than white people (by their peers, at manboobz, or in general, which seems a touch odd but with 7 answers to the acceptance question[s] the numbers in each category got into the “n is questionable” territory)
In any case, NONE of the categories I’ve run so far feel any less accepted here than any other group (and the peer and in general ones *whistles*)
@BS:
“Also, I wish puas would drop the tired “game is no worse than women’s beauty advice” bullshit. It’s a false equivalence. The equivalent of women’s beauty advice is men’s beauty advice. The female equivalent of pua would be advice aimed at women designed to trick guys into sexual/romantic relationships (and before some pua shouts “but what about Cosmo!”, plenty of feminists think the dating “advice” in Cosmo is horrible).”
O: That may indeed be, but it doesn’t change the fact that millions of Women around the world regularly consult Cosmo and related mags, books, blogs, shows and so on, for tips on how to best display their wares on the metrics that Men desire – and this brings me to my next point in response to yours…
…that the PUAs are correct to make the case that Game is no different than Women’s beauty advice. Why? Because Game operates on the metrics that Women want (at least insofar as a short term mate, in any case), the attraction triggers, being different from what Men want in Women. To attempt to say that a “proper equivalent” between the two would be a “his/hers beauty tips” kind of thing, only reveals an ignorance of sex differences in terms of mate preference and attraction cues. Men prefer different things in a mate from Women.
Moreover, aside from the book “The Rules” Women have long had certain “rules” they employed on Men to get whatever they wanted out of them; they don’t call it “feminine wiles” for nothing. Studies have shown that Women can and will use their sex appeal to gain favors from Men that they had no intention of sleeping with; some Women will even use their sex appeal to get dinners and nights out on the town and then abscond toward the end of the evening. Women have a full array of deceptive tactics, its just that, as I noted in my own personal case of street harassment or being harassed by the young lady who cried when I told her I didn’t want to be bothered (to name just a few) Men don’t speak up about it, while Women are quite vocal about these things.
Men need to speak up more.
O.
lmao. This is quite possibly one of the most hilariously stupid things you’ve said yet. Very few people prosecute rape, let alone rapist wannabees like those who use Game. Go look at rape statistics, how many people a) report, b) prosecute, c) go to trial, and d) get convicted. It’s percents of percents. It’s minuscule. Prosecuting rape isn’t even worth the ordeal for many people. It sure as hell wasn’t for me. My ability to get away from my abuser was waaaay more important for me than throwing my life into shit for years having to relive my experiences and having to describe it over and over to people who don’t believe me, and to people who are trying to prove it didn’t happen. My safety and peace of mind was more important than trying to navigate the court system to get anything done – and it wouldn’t have gone that far, I’m 100% sure it wouldn’t have even gone to an arrest, let alone a trial and conviction.
In other news, I’ve just realized how horrible I am. Every day I go to work, I ensure that my hair doesn’t look like a complete mess. Because, usually, when I’m at home, my hair doesn’t look as nice.
Deception at its worst.
It’s also funny that this dude thinks that puas will leave alone married women, or women who don’t go to nightclubs. They have entire programs that are supposed to teach guys to hit on women outside of nightclub environments and probably many thousands of blog posts and forum threads where puas trade tips on how to hit on women online, at shopping malls, grocery stores, walking down the street, within their social circle, etc.
Likewise, they share tactics and lines and memorized scripts for hitting on women with boyfriends or husbands and trying to have sex with them.
So yeah but no, doesn’t matter if a woman is taken, if she doesn’t go to nightclubs or bars, or for that matter if the pua even finds her attractive (since even a woman they’re not attracted to counts as “practice” to them), she’s still fair game to these douchebags.
I don’t wear shoes in the house, but when I’m going to go out I do, and sometimes they have heels. Deception! Women are so manipulative.
Probability that any differences in feeling accepted are due to random chance? P=0.7
That’s the chi squared, the correlations for the individual racial options were all so close to 0 it’s downright funny. Correlation scores are R, not P. The closer R is to +/- 1 the stronger the correlation. Zero is no correlation at all. And 0 and +/- 1 basically never happen. Yet I’m looking at -0.03 through 0.04.
Correlation becomes meaningful around 0.2, p becomes meaningful (usually) at 0.05.
Whoops, that -0.03 is white people. -0.017 is the lowest for minorities (this difference means nothing given they both amount to “this is not significant”)
“O: I didn’t say it was a “sin”; I said that it was equally manipulative, because it is based on that which Men in general most desire in Women, which are cues to youth and beauty/health. Very interesting how much all of you (and other Women, to be frank) are so adamant in your denials in this regard; as if ONLY Men can “trick” people into doing thus and so; never Women.”
How is having colored glittery eyelids a cue of health?
Wearing makeup is not some kind of trick. It’s really fucking obvious when we wear it. That’s not deception. Even if a woman does the “no makeup” makeup look, it’s still not a big enough change, and why would it matter?
The point is, why is it a lie? You’re not promised to see someone’s “natural” body anyways. Plus if you’re talking about Evo psych, then anything that would change your purely genetic self would be lying. Like using treatments for genetic disorders, since you’re lying about being “unattractive”(attractiveness in genetic health).
Also, you haven’t addressed all of us who said that women don’t always dress up for attracting mates. I don’t wear makeup for getting laid, or retaining my boyfriend. Dude, I wear makeup because its fun. If makeup is for attracting mates, then why do women wear it around people they don’t ever plan on fucking?
What about lesbians who wear makeup? They’re not going to “breed” anyways, so why would looking healthy/sexy matter to them?
AllyS – which is worse, the ebil deception of looking nice to trick menz into sex, or the ebil deception of looking nice and having no intention of having anything to do sexually with any random man at all?
Inquiring misandrists need to know!
OF: This is one of many reasons no one takes you seriously. Evopsych? I thought you were pretending to be smarter than that.
Hmm, Kittehs, I’m going to have to think about this. Are you a woman? If so it’s probably evil.
Also you forgot the possibility of going out without making any effort to be attractive, which is the greatest misandry of all.
Argenti, do you have the numbers on educational levels? I don’t remember if that was in the survey, but it probably was.
Also, why can’t men wear makeup?
Ditto with the false equivalence, women enhancing their beauty is the equivalent of men enhancing their beauty, not manipulation.
@auggz – are coloured glittery eyelids a cue of health for glittery vampires, maybe?
Ditto on wearing makeup. I wear it ‘cos I like the way I look with it on. I actively don’t want attention from men except my husband, and he doesn’t care whether I wear it or not; the attention there is pretty well guaranteed (well, unless he’s been distracted by the Furrinati, but that goes without saying).
@Cassandra:
“Ah, I see we’ve reached the “you bitches just want to keep the ugly men down!” stage of the conversation. I’m amazed that Eurosabra hasn’t showed up yet. Maybe it’s like PUA Highlander.”
O: Not quite; remember, I said that *some* Women AND Men, have problems with certain guys “stepping out of their place”. And actually, I don’t know if you know this, but Game has quite a few male detractors, and for good reason: competition. In order to be successful at human mating, be you male or female, you first have to have the goods that the opposite sex wants/desires, and next, you have to putdown/eliminate competitors. Human beings in fact have specially evolved mechanisms in this regard, in ways that are far more advanced than in other animals and the like on the planet. Derogation of competitors is very important, and here we see quite a few guys (which include male feminists) putting down PUAs, under the rubric of them being “rapists in all but name only” and so forth. In truth however, these are guys who are real potential competitors, and these guys respond accordingly.
As for why some Women would have problems with Game? Well, the easiest reason/explanation would be, that Game, its fundamental premise of obtaining sexual relations with attractive Women with minimal time or investment, is at odds with Womens’ core mating strategies, which is to secure long-term investment/commitment from the best male they can get. This explains much of the consternation on the part of many of the lady critics of Game.
O.
Cassandra – cool, I get to be evil either way. I’ll do the ULTIMATE EVIL when I go shopping in trakkie dacks and saggy cardy soon. Muahahahahaha!
I’m not wearing makeup to retain Mr. HK. He’s seen the merchandise sans product and didn’t run away screaming.
EvoPsych, the just so stories for dummies with bad confirmation bias.
Is being succinct against your religion?
My “mating strategy” has always been to hook up with people who I find physically attractive. If that piece isn’t in place there’s not a damn thing they can do to change my mind.
(I’m not the only person who finds the “mating” thing creepy, right?)
OF: omit needless words. In your case, almost all of them.
Also, what makes you think PUAs haven’t raped women, and that some went to jail? Police aren’t going to ask what his favorite book is. And victims aren’t going to ask their rapist, “hey do you like Game, and is that why you raped me?” and then record it in surveys on rape.
What are trakkie dacs? I feel like a derail into regional slang would vastly improve this thread given that it’s currently making me want to take a nap.
Cassandra: Nope, he may as well use “females” in addition to “mating.”
@Hellkell:
“OF: This is one of many reasons no one takes you seriously. Evopsych? I thought you were pretending to be smarter than that.”
O: I am: http://www.amazon.com/The-Evolution-Of-Desire-Revised/dp/046500802X
Here’ a really good dicussion between Prof. David Buss, and Prof. Richard Dawkins on what, exactly, EvoPsych is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZw3lxyuhEU
You may thank me later…
O.
Trakkie dacks = tracksuit pants. I’ve no idea where “dacks” comes from as slang for trousers. :D
Hey, we could have the “are stretchy bottoms actually pants” argument again. It has to be more interesting than whatever PUA dude is tl;dr-ing about.
Regional slang! How about dung budgie for blowflies? Seems apt in this thread.
MordsithJ — yep.
Primary — 24 // 1.5%
Secondary — 362 // 22.1%
Tertiary // College // University — 825 // 50.3%
Graduate School — 319 // 19.5%
Doctorate — 98 // 6%
No Response — 12 // 0.5%
And while I don’t mind answering this sort of question, all the basic data like this is in the graphs (which will definitely be done by Monday, at this point I’m running stats, and waiting out the holiday weekend)
I was more asking if anyone has any questions like how two things interact and stuff like that. (There’s apparently no correlation between socio-economic class and education, but apply salt, the class question was the most contentious of the questions)
@Auggzillary:
“Also, what makes you think PUAs haven’t raped women, and that some went to jail? Police aren’t going to ask what his favorite book is. And victims aren’t going to ask their rapist, “hey do you like Game, and is that why you raped me?” and then record it in surveys on rape.”
O: Good question –
1. The pickup community is quite the grapevine. If a PUA, especially one of any repute, had gotten locked up on rape charges, believe me, the word would have gotten around; and
2. Given the intense focus on the part of Feminists, if such a thing happened, they’d be all over it, and they would be quite keen to let everyone know that they finally “got one”…
O.
Oh, sorry, I meant to ask if there was any correlation between education and feeling accepted.
Also, KITTIES AND PRINTERS
*cocks head at data* …how is that significant? I need to drop the no replies and run this again…
Things we have learned that dude doesn’t understand so far today – the works of George Orwell, why people go to clubs, and the fact that not all crimes result in a criminal conviction.
Things we are confused about – why he hasn’t been banned for being tedious yet.
Oh no, Obsidian was right, Game is being adopted by more and more males, just look at the hats!
Kitties and vacuum cleaners
Kitties and printers! Cuter and smarter than OF!
@Cassandra:
“Is being succinct against your religion?”
O: I’m descended from a long line of clerics…
“My “mating strategy” has always been to hook up with people who I find physically attractive. If that piece isn’t in place there’s not a damn thing they can do to change my mind.”
O: Nor should they. Have you experienced such a thing?
“(I’m not the only person who finds the “mating” thing creepy, right?)”
O: That’s not standard PUAspeak, if you will; I got that right from evolutioary psychologists themselves…
O.
Hey, on the subject of leggings, I saw the most gorgeous pair of Fair Isle leggings a while back. Wish I’d asked the wearer where she got them. I can’t find any remotely like them in any of the shops around town. They would look so good under a dark brown skirt, or under the tunic I’m knitting.
Bearded dragons in hats, cuter and more date-worthy than any PUA!
@Cassandra:
“Things we have learned that dude doesn’t understand so far today – the works of George Orwell, why people go to clubs, and the fact that not all crimes result in a criminal conviction.”
O: Do single peope frequent bars and clubs more than do marriedss? And if so.not, why?
Orwell was a genius.
Is not a powerful way to combat the crime of rape to ssecure convictions on this offense? And if indeed Game materials and the like, as well as its practitioners, are “defacto rapists” – wouldn’t the way to combat that, to bring them to justice?
If not…why?
“Things we are confused about – why he hasn’t been banned for being tedious yet.”
O: I didn’t know “being tedious” was a bannable offence…
O.
Enh, I have NO trouble believing a majority white space is racist as hell. It kind of comes with the territory.
Also, man, I took all the trouble of writing up a serious response about making life and dating better, and it just gets flat-out ignored! *sigh* Oh well.
And… Richard Dawkins! *recoils into the shadows* HSSSSSS! Next he’ll be invoking the name of Norah Vincent again! HSSSSSS!
Hellkell: yes, the blockquote monsters are active. They ate a post of mine in the Popehat thread (I’ve been told I have comprehension issues: also that using a persons stated positions is unfair: I can’t assume they meant it; I need to ask them what their position is: also, he tried to pull the, “you must be mentally unstable; suffering from PTSD: then when called said it was about some other person… all with a Tedium Potent enough to soporise even Brandon).
It’s significant to me, personally, because I didn’t go to college, I went to trade school. Which is why I don’t participate in the more intellectual discussions around here; I’m kind of out of my league.
becausescience: It’s also funny that this dude thinks that puas will leave alone married women, or women who don’t go to nightclubs. They have entire programs that are supposed to teach guys to hit on women outside of nightclub environments and probably many thousands of blog posts and forum threads where puas trade tips on how to hit on women online, at shopping malls, grocery stores, walking down the street, within their social circle, etc.
Daygame, right? how laundromats are great places, and dog parks, and waiting in line at the DMV (she can’t get away… captive audience).
Yeah, it’s all about the “offer, and if she says no, ‘just bounce'”,
I reckon ObnoxiousFuckwit should be put on the same limit Dave had for Schticky – three comments in 24 hours.
Also, I forgot to mention this, but I got to go “behind the scenes” at a zoo. My friends sister is a zookeeper, and she let us see what she does.
We saw tamanduas and got to hold one. They’re basically a cute climbing anteater.
I saw a baby anteater that was living in one of the zoo keepers cabins, it was in a baby play pen and was cuddling with a blanket and rattle…
I got to feed an African elephant an apple and carrot. They inhale everything when they grab. It’s really cute.
I got to pet and feed giraffes. They eat lettuce basically, and I got slobbered a lot… Giraffes drool a lot.
I pet a baby Baird’s tapir. I fed it a banana and gave it belly rubs(it rolled on its back for me). I didn’t get to pet it’s mother in the other room, since adult tapirs are dangerous.
I also got to see some cats up close, but not pet them. They were a lynx, 3 clouded leopard cubs, and this other cat that idk the name of. It was skinny, kind of looked like a cheetah but with a short tail and pointed ears. I cannot remember its name to save my life.
Also golden pheasants love to lay on their backs and kick at the sky, idk why, but its adorable.
@Hellkell:
“I’m not wearing makeup to retain Mr. HK. He’s seen the merchandise sans product and didn’t run away screaming.”
O: That’s not what I said, but whatevs…
“EvoPsych, the just so stories for dummies with bad confirmation bias.”
O: OK, so now you know more than Prof. Buss.
Gotcha…
O.
@MordsithJ – same here, I didn’t do uni either.
I am considering buying these, because apparently my inner teenager still makes my purchasing decisions.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Women-Stretchy-Fashion-Skull-311-Lady-Slim-Tights-Pantyhose-Stockings-Leggings-/271190448190?pt=US_Womens_Leggings&hash=item3f2435d83e
And also these, to wear to shows (not ones where I’m working).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330729190863?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649
Oh my fucking god misandric bearded dragons.
Oh, the cat I couldn’t think of was a serval.
I wouldn’t have wanted to touch it anyways since it looked like it was trying to hunt me…
Ok now that makes sense. ‘Twas getting a statistically significant difference because of the spread of answers (i.e. more strongly agree, less agree, more sort of agree, less neither agree nor disagree, damn near exact numbers for the disagree options)
And this is why eyeballing your results is not optional!
OF: it IS what you said. You said if I wasn’t doing it to attract a mate, I was doing it to retain one. Fuckhead, I can read what you wrote.
And from the comments policy for your edification:
RE: auggziliary
That’s awesome! One of the kids here is curious; do you know more details about the kind of work your friend’s sister does? (It was a dream job, back when we were a wee fifth grader.)
Back in Austin, there’s a zoo mostly devoted to abused or rescued animals. As a wee thing, there was a new baby tiger that we got to actually touch. Mega-adorable. The next time we saw him, he was HUGE. I kinda would like to revisit that zoo now, as an adult…
auggz – oooh, I’m envious!
Would the cat you saw be a serval, maybe?
MordsithJ I don’t think you are out of your league.
I may not be in Fibinachi’s league (for style, and bravura takedowns con brio), but you do fine.
Clear thoughts, solid arguments, and reasoned response. That’s all any of us can really demand. That and an honest engagement.
I think we need a new version of the Brandon challenge. Maybe he could only be allowed to post comments that don’t reference how hard it is for men to get sex, PUA, or any associated topic.
Cassandra: my inner teenager approves of those leggings.
@SitteKitty:
“True and says nothing. Because the big difference is in what we espouse to others, the way we treat racial issues, the understanding we have of race and privilege, and intersectionality. You pointing this out doesn’t really change/prove anything… and if your intention was just to say it out loud, I do believe Argenti beat you to it.”
O: It’s not. And like I said, we’ll ssee how you all treat isssue of race, very soon.
@Argenti:
“Ran that set of data versus the question on acceptance last night, apparently none of the minorities around here feel less accepted than white people (by their peers, at manboobz, or in general, which seems a touch odd but with 7 answers to the acceptance question[s] the numbers in each category got into the “n is questionable” territory)
In any case, NONE of the categories I’ve run so far feel any less accepted here than any other group (and the peer and in general ones *whistles*)”
O: I know I wasn’t part of the MRA Reddit survey, but I can say that I never felt “unaccepted” at The Spearhead, and in fact Bill Price has always treated me very well and professionally.
But, the full results of the Manboobz survey will have to be seen, and for what it’s worth I very much like the fact that its minority readers feel welcome here. That is certainly good to hear.
O.
And also, a hugely useful way to combat rape, is to do a lot of education on what consent is. It’s been proven to decrease the instance of rape. And it doesn’t involve fucking over a victim in the criminal court system.
Cassandra, those leggings are amazing, especially the ripped ones. Never seen those before.
The skull ones remind me of the mittens Jackie McKinley wore in Time Team – striped with a skull on the back of the hand. Very cool for an osteoarchaeologist!
Speaking of statistics and prosecuting deception, can I report that ~20% of the posts are longwinded threadjacking by a horrible bore? Could one of you Daves please do something about that? Please?
So Jealous of the backstage at the zoo.
And yes, most people here know more than Buss. Buss thinks the just-so ev-psych is legitimate. Buss is wrong.
Does Buss have a degree? Yep. So did Hernstein and Murray. Being educated doesn’t mean you are able to avoid believing wrong (and stupid) things.
With a solid black top the skulls wouldn’t be too garish, right? And a not-too-sexy top with the ripped ones so the overall effect isn’t overkill.
“Oh, sorry, I meant to ask if there was any correlation between education and feeling accepted.”
No, but correlations only work for linear data, if acceptance goes down on both ends that won’t mean much. You want me to run the more specific test?
(So far all things relating to acceptance here have been in the positive direction — feeling MORE accepted)
And my brain just broke on the acceptance v mental disability question. Charted the expected v observed values and the disagree side lined up nearly exactly, but the difference is significant? Oh, we’re accepted but checked different boxes on the accepted side of things (less agree, more strongly and sort of)
Also, more footnotes!
RE: Kristineedscats
Be glad you weren’t here for the days of B.
I remember those days. Those long, dark, TEDIOUS days… seriously, I don’t think Obsidian Files could ever hold a candle to that guy.