GirlWritesWhat’s delusional defenses of MGTOW misogyny. Also: Mary Daly, and why the moon is not a potato.

That's no moon!

That’s no moon!

So yesterday I had a strange conversation, of sorts, with blabby FeMRA videoblogger Karen Straughan, aka GirlWritesWhat, via private message on Reddit.

Given that, in the recent WoolyBumblebee controversy, she put herself in the position of defending Men Going Their Own Way against WBB’s mostly accurate attacks on them, I found myself wondering what she might think of my post yesterday on the MGTOWers who felt it was appropriate to let a four-year-old-girl drown because she might grow up to be the next Betty Friedan or even the next — gasp! — Amanda Marcotte.

I was especially interested in what she might have to say about MGTOW elder Zed, the friend and mentor of her A Voice for Men boss, Paul Elam; in the MGTOWforums discussion, you may recall, he was firmly in the “don’t rescue little girls” camp.

So I asked her about that, and asked why she was defending MGTOWers when so many of them don’t even think women should be part of the Men’s Rights movement at all.

Here’s some of what she wrote back:

You seem to be deliberately trying to evoke an outrage in me. First, Zed, “Paul E’s mentor and idol” would not save a child he doesn’t know. Then “MGTOWers…don’t actually think women should be part of the MR movement…”

Do you think I should be expected to die to save a boy I don’t know? Speaking as someone who almost died once to save my son and my nephew, why should I be expected to potentially leave my children orphans to save someone else’s kid? And the truth is, I wouldn’t be expected to do that. In reality, no one would have blamed me if I had chosen not to nearly drown to save my own kid and my sister’s kid. I like your quote mine: Men shouldn’t rescue 4 year old girls… Not what it actually is: Men shouldn’t sacrifice their lives or health to save 4 year old girls they don’t know or have reason to care about…

It’s an interesting way she’s chosen to, well, reframe the issue. Zed didn’t say he was only talking about situations where the rescuers life would be at risk. He said, simply and categorically:

When a female is in trouble, if I don’t know her, I don’t see her.

After demanding that I denounce a random radical feminist who said something terrible, she moved on to my second question, though not without accusing me of “needling” her by pointing out that MGTOWers hate women. Or, as she prefers to look at  it, they don’t “trust” women.

Do I have to list every single psychological lever you’ve attempted to apply in this message? Do you really think I’m going to react like a typical woman? “OMG, those MGTOWs don’t trust women!!! And that means they don’t trust me! I am a herd animal! I am incapable of ignoring naysayers! I can’t stand the fact that perhaps somewhere, someone doesn’t appreciate me!!! How dare they express themselves if it will hurt a woman’s feelings???????”

Woah, there. I think that might have been a bit more revealing than you intended it to be.

So your definition of “typical woman” is “herd animal?” I’ll take “internalized misogyny” for $1000, Alex.

Instead of me asking, “Why would I need anyone’s permission to make videos and assist a movement I believe in? Why would I take it as a personal failing that a man would not risk his life to save my child when I would not potentially orphan my kids to save the kids of some random person? Why would David Futrelle think my outrage over what a handful of MGTOW say about women in the movement should outweigh my own principles?”

Uh, you don’t need anyone’s permission to make your videos. Jewish people don’t need anyone’s permission to start making videos glorifying Adolph Hitler. Black people don’t need anyone’s permission to make videos on behalf of the Klan.

The question is why do you want to? Not just: why are you willing to make videos on behalf of a Men’s Rights movement driven by misogyny. But why are you willing to defend and make excuses for MGTOWers who not only hate women in general but hate you personally?

Why are you willing to lie — apparently even to yourself — and pretend that they don’t really hate women — that, really, it’s just that they don’t “trust” women because some awful woman has hurt them, or because some mean feminist said something insulting about their favorite video game, or whatever the excuse is.

And if you have any doubt that most MGTOWers really and truly hate women — hate hate HATE them — I invite you to read through the archives here. I suggest you start with MGTOWer extraordinaire Christopher in Oregon, and then move on to the posts dealing with MGTOWers in general.

And if you doubt that MGTOWers hate you, you personally, just go down to MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hangout around, and take a look at the threads devoted to AVFM. A lot of the guys there hate AVFM with a passion — and they hate it largely because Paul give a platform to you and other women.

For someone so obsessed with me, you sure don’t know a lot about me.

Huh, wouldn’t that sort of suggest that maybe I’m not actually that obsessed with you?

From what I do know about Straughan (not much) this seems to be a standard ploy she pulls whenever someone calls her on her shit — to try to throw them off-balance and put them on the defensive by declaring them “stalkers” or “obsessed,” as she did with spermjack_attack, a Redditor who’s done some amazing takedowns of GWW posts and videos in recent days, like this one.

I responded by pointing out that

I often write about MRAs. You’re a prominent MRA, so sometimes I write about you. I should probably write more, given that you’re kind of a big fish in your tiny pond, but your videos are so fucking tedious and slow I can’t bear to watch them.

Which is true. That’s why, despite all the attention she gets from her MRA fanboys, I’ve written only three posts about her — compared with seven about the comparatively less important but much more entertaining Christopher in Oregon, mentioned above. Well, this will make it four posts about her.

Anyway, I also called her out on her evasive answer about Zed, so she tried again, this time with a new evasion:

Zed said categorically, “When a female is in trouble, if I don’t know her, I don’t see her.” Let’s parse that. He would not intervene. Why should he be expected to? Do you have any idea how small the burden is on women to intervene? If a woman were being assaulted and a female witness didn’t intervene, would this be shameful? How about if a man were being assaulted?

That’s an odd way of “parsing” it, since in context it was abundantly clear that he wasn’t just talking about adult women being assaulted. He was specifically talking about little girls. The whole point of his argument, which he repeated several times, was that he didn’t want to help little girls because, as he put it, they might “grow … up to be another Amanda Marcunt, or Jessica Valenti, or Betty Friedan.”

Karen, you can pretend he was talking only about adult women, but he wasn’t.

You can pretend that MGTOWers don’t hate women, but they do.

You can pretend whatever you want about the movement you’ve attached yourself to, but guess what — everyone outside of that movement can see it for what it is.

Most of the rest of her comment was devoted to trying to prove how “obsessed” I am with her.

If you are curious about me and why I might involve myself in a movement you believe hates women, you might concede I’d be curious about you and why you involve yourself in a movement that I believe hates men (or masculinity, take your pick). And yet how many times have I initiated contact with you? How often do I devote entire blog posts or videos to you?

Perhaps I’m measuring you by my own yardstick. Because as curious as I am as to why you would ally yourself with a movement whose foundational ideology is hostile to men (no matter how mainstream or seemingly benign), as much as I might lie awake wondering what motivates you, I am simply not obsessed enough by the question to PM you and ask. Or to read your blog (even when you’re talking about me). Or to devote entire blog posts to you.

If I messaged you over anything regarding that, I would consider myself obsessed with the psychological dysfunction represented by you. So you messaging me indicates (to me) a level of obsession on par with that. If you are the type of person to initiate private contact with people you consider opponents on a regular basis, then I’ve misjudged you.

Yes, I confess, sometimes I ask questions of my ideological opponents, publicly or privately, in hopes of getting an interesting response. I certainly got some revealing answers, and even more revealing non-answers, from Straughan.

And it was definitely more interesting than watching one of her videos.

Oh, and for some reason, before she closed up the debate, she decided she wanted to talk about Mary Daly, of all people, whom she seems to think has never been criticized by any feminists ever except for one by the name of, uh … Dr. Mindbeam? No, that’s really what she thinks.  Apparently, in GirlWritesWhat-land,  it was one big feminist love-fest for Mary Daly up until  Dr. Mindbeam came along in 2011 and wrote a blog post.

Mary Daly’s body was long cold before some random internet feminist named Dr Mindbeam finally excommunicated her on “no seriously, what about teh menz?” I haven’t seen any feminists who write under their real names do so.

Maybe you could educate me.

I mentioned Audre Lorde’s open letter to Daly calling her out for racism back in 1979. I suggested she Google “Mary Daly” and “transphobe” and read through some of the results. Might take a while, as there are 5000 of them.

But I’m not sure how one can “educate” someone like her, someone who has declared herself a “gender theorist” and who makes endless half-hour or even hour-long videos on feminism, without bothering to learn even the rudiments of feminist history first. (Lesson One: Feminists often disagree with each other.)

It would be like someone declaring themselves an astrophysics theorist, then declaring “the moon is a potato! I’ve seen no evidence indicating otherwise. If you think you know better, educate me!”

Her understanding of feminism seems stuck at the “moon is a potato” level, and I just don’t think there’s anything any of us can do about it.

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Posted on June 30, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, douchebaggery, female beep boop, FemRAs, GirlWritesWhat, imaginary backwards land, irony alert, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, narcissism, no girls allowed, oppressed men, radfems oh my, reddit, straw feminists, transphobia, zed and tagged , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 671 Comments.

  1. cassandrakitty

    In some cases maybe not being yourself would be the better option. Learn to be a better person, Sid! But go learn it somewhere else.

    @ cloudiah

    Actually, that (the purple one) is a balcony bra. Basically it just means a construction where the side comes up and blends into the strap in one solid piece, rather than having a strap that just kind of attaches to the top of the cup. It tends to pull things up and towards the center, hence being good for larger cup sizes.

    I prefer colorful undies in general, though solid colors more than patterns. BTW, worth pointing out since most lingerie companies lean towards the Whitey McWhitePerson mode in their marketing and design, the Cleo Lucy comes in two colors that would look great on someone with dark skin, a bright blue and this orange and white combination.

    http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/236x/5e/0f/1b/5e0f1b43266d93d6e3b4abe83f2cf843.jpg

  2. That orange/white combo is so cute. I’m jealous.

  3. Target is actually a really good place to buy cute colorful underwear. I have a pair that are green with tigers on them. Those are adorable.

  4. cassandrakitty

    I will get my hands on one of these in the blue color at some point.

    http://blog.castaluna.fr/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/panache-malibu-blue.jpg

  5. Ooh, I like those little pink ribbons on each piece. They go so nicely with the blue.

  6. @Cassandra

    ::squees:: those are so cute.

  7. OMG, love the colorful bras. I have one that is lavender with butterflies and cupcakes!

    I got fitted recently (I’d never done that before) and walked in thinking I was an A cup. Turns out I’m a freaking C cup! How does that happen!? I picked out a practical but pretty bra, and my bf picked out the fun one ;D

    He was like “This bra makes no sense! You should get it, lol!”

  8. @fromafar

    That bra sounds so cute! I’m jealous :D

  9. The bra discussion: Works every time.

  10. cassandrakitty

    The best part is that initially they get so excited. “Bras! Here is a perfect opportunity to share my boner-related feelings about breasts with a bunch of women who don’t have the option to walk away!”

    And then the conversation goes on and on with nothing sexual at all and it gradually becomes apparent that boobs aren’t just there to be fun toys for the dude in question, and they just kind of slink off in a huff.

  11. I has a sad because Brava’s Melbourne store is closing. Not that I can afford their bras at the moment, but damn they sold some lovely stuff.

  12. Wow, that took a while to read through but it was pretty enjoyable (minus the parts where he targeted specific individuals that was horrifying)

    Apparently I do not exist as a person because I am a woman and neither spend boatloads of money nor expect to “marry up” financially. I have almost no interest in money aside from what is necessary to have a comfortable life (hopefully, I didn’t exactly pick a high earning career, but hey we do what we love).

    I particularly loved that he thought the bra conversation was directed AT him, like no dude it’s not all about you and what “turns you on”. Also, screw you asshole I have freckles and yeah I cover them up because I have uneven skin tone and think I look better with makeup, I don’t give a rats ass how that makes you feel. For the record, I hope Sid doesn’t actually respond to my post because I hope he has left by now, srsly.

  13. This discussion reminds me of the menstruation thread over on another post. In that it’s a glimpse into the normally unseen (by me) world of Things Women Have to Deal With. If my husband and I had adopted daughters instead of sons, we’d likely be dealing with both menstruation and bras with both. I’m sure we’d be doing a good job, but it would definitely be a different experience.

  14. Insidious_Sid

    “For the record, I hope Sid doesn’t actually respond to my post because I hope he has left by now, srsly.”

    I promise. As soon as I’m done photoshopping some freckles on your picture I’m outta here…

  15. wewereemergencies

    Eww. I’m voting Sid get banned. Creeping on 3 different Mammotheers? How about fuck no go away you terrible human being.

  16. Blergh. The Insidious Sod is up early looking for attention.

    I promise. As soon as I’m done photoshopping some freckles on your picture I’m outta here…

    So, I wonder, why on earth would someone actually write something like this? I mean, obviously, for attention; but is there really no sense of shame? To repeatedly and flagrantly cross boundaries like this. What actually goes through a person’s head? How does one get to this point? How does one squash that little voice of conscience?

    I don’t really care for an answer. This kind of thinking is so alien to me I don’t understand it at all. Anyway, I think an e-mail to the Dark Lord is in order.

  17. And, e-mail sent.

  18. Sid, when all the commenters on a blog, and the blog owner, tell you repeatedly to not behave in a creepy manner towards individual commenters on the blog, you should probably listen to them. Banned.

  19. Beautiful. Thank you.

  20. Good riddance. He wasn’t just a creep, he was a try-hard creep – how much more loserish can one get?

  21. This is how I kept reading most of Sid’s comments:

    “In the morning, we will experience a rising pressure. Short, cool showers may cause mild shrinkage. Thinking about women leads to a slight tingle, with a chance of boner. Porn warning in the afternoon.

    This has been your daily updates from my penis. See you tomorrow!”

    But whatever, he started his very first post by equating “men” with “females”, so uggghhh. Lost all interest after that.

  22. I’m going to snicker through every weather forecast I hear now, Anarchonist.

  23. Off topic but this gives me so much happiness for protecting the children of the world from molestation.

    http://www.upworthy.com/watch-what-this-make-believe-girl-means-to-1000-sexual-predators?g=2&c=reccon1

    Now back to my mostly daily lurking from my occasional comment.

  24. :: offers hugs to cupisnique ::

    :: asks sid to hug a cactus ::

  25. That banning was definitely called for. Now I’m free to mention that I like my freckles and don’t cover them up and that decision has nothing to do with anyone’s boner.

  26. Interesting how creeps can’t help but creep, while also whining about how people notice that they’re creeps. And by “interesting,” what I really mean is “gross.”

  27. @Sid

    I promise. As soon as I’m done photoshopping some freckles on your picture I’m outta here…

    Hey, Sid, can you take your horrible person-ness to another planet? I hear Venus is a nice place for you.

    Seconding the notion that he gets banned. He has no redeeming qualities, and he can’t be funny when he’s so often going after individual people.

    @David

    Sid, when all the commenters on a blog, and the blog owner, tell you repeatedly to not behave in a creepy manner towards individual commenters on the blog, you should probably listen to them. Banned.

    ::all hail the glory of the banhammer::

  28. Thus endeth Sid’s talking to/pestering women for at least another decade.

  29. Notice that Sid didn’t “apologize” until I said I was 19 and a lesbian. Despite the fact that, before I even said I was a teenage lesbian, I told him my history of being sexually harassed by men and how the aftermath of such harassment makes me extra sensitive to invasive comments. But he just doubled down in response. And even telling him about my age and orientation didn’t stop him from being an invasive douchebag.

    Maybe I was the one being foolish. A lot of men see a woman’s homosexuality as an invitation for harassment and abuse rather than an additional reason to leave her alone. It makes me really afraid of how many other men might treat me once I’m out to the world as a trans lesbian.

  30. Thanks for banning him, David.

  31. Sorry about the a-hole being a creeper to you, Ally and Marie. Thanks for the banhammer, David.

    I’m going to snicker through every weather forecast I hear now, Anarchonist.

    Muahahhahhaa! Another victory for… The Inconveniencer!

    Yes, I am a new brand of supervillain! Istead of plotting to take over the world, I wake up in the morning, pondering on how I could inconvenience people today without making them feel too uncomfortable!

    To give you an idea of the evils I’m capable of, I am that strange person who walks at the exact pace as you, right beside you, without taking you into account as we get closer to a puddle on a narrow street that I can comfortably dodge as the puddle doesn’t extend to my side of the street, but you are forced to either slow down and let me go first or step right into the puddle! AHAHAHAHAAA!

    God, I need a hobby.

  32. :: offers hugs to cupisnique ::

    :: asks sid to hug a cactus ::

    haha thanks Ally!

    His response was not at all surprising giving his devolution into pure asshattery. He was really just pretending to be a reasonable human being and when we weren’t fooled he let the mask completely fall away. It was all just for attention in the end, didn’t matter how many boundaries needed to be crossed to get it.

  33. The Inconveniencer!

    I want to see this new supervillain’s costume now.

  34. The Inconveniencer!

    I want to see this new supervillain’s costume now.

    I suspect it will look an awful lot like our Furrinati overlords.

  35. I suspect it will look an awful lot like our Furrinati overlords.

    That is SO true.

    https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/3455649792/h19649B6A/

    http://i.imgur.com/8I9M7LL.jpg

  36. cassandrakitty,

    I have that bra in blue (size 32 G) and am wearing it right now. It is a nice bra :)

  37. To give you an idea of the evils I’m capable of, I am that strange person who walks at the exact pace as you, right beside you, without taking you into account as we get closer to a puddle on a narrow street that I can comfortably dodge as the puddle doesn’t extend to my side of the street, but you are forced to either slow down and let me go first or step right into the puddle! AHAHAHAHAAA!

    The shift manager who closes all but one of the checkout lanes when the grocery store is really busy! The driver who parks a little too close to the edge of the parking space so that you won’t be able to get out if you park in the next space!

  38. I am that strange person who walks at the exact pace as you, right beside you, without taking you into account as we get closer to a puddle on a narrow street that I can comfortably dodge as the puddle doesn’t extend to my side of the street, but you are forced to either slow down and let me go first or step right into the puddle! AHAHAHAHAAA!

    Lovely!

    This reminds me of one of my favorite authors, Alejandro Dolina, whose surrealistic fiction includes a story in which he confesses he plays races with strangers in the street, while making wishes.

    Something like “I will solve X problem if I get to the corner before that bald man”

    The story ends when he finds a man whom he realizes is doing the same game as himself. The universe collapses or something.

    You sound like a perfect supervillian for that kind of story.

  39. There you go, Blockquote Mammoth, have you 2 am snack

  40. Ha! I kinda imagine my introductory lines to be borrowed from Darkwing Duck.

    I am the ham radio operator that scrambles your reception!

    I am the repairman who tells you your warranty just ran out!

    I am the schnauzer that digs up your petunias!

    I am the check writer in the cash-only line!

    I am the batteries that aren’t included!

    I am the tube of cadmium yellow that is impossible to open!

    I… am the Inconveniencer!

    I’d better get crackin’ at designing that costume, though. Maybe a cat-theme, then? Not a furry costume, though. No offense to furries, the costumes just make me really, really uncomfortable. Maybe they remind me of that disturbing scene in Kubrick’s The Shining, or something.

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