The Man Boobz Survey is up! Go take it! [UPDATE: Survey closes Thursday at 8 PM, EST]
Survey says: Actually, none of these are options on the Man Boobz survey
Thanks to the hard work of Argenti Aertheri and the suggestions of various other Boobzers, the Man Boobz survey is now up and ready to be taken. It will give me — and all of you — a better picture of just what sort of people read Man Boobz on a regular basis. It’s completely anonymous. Go take it! It will only take a few minutes.
I will probably leave it up for a couple of days, and will report the results here as soon as the numbers are crunched.
I think pretty much any other question you might have about it will probably be answered on the survey itself, so hop to it!
Thanks Argenti!
Posted on June 22, 2013, in announcements, self-promotion. Bookmark the permalink. 632 Comments.
“Once upon a time” started roughly around the New Deal and only really got jump started after WWII and the Marshall Plan. In Quebec we got on that train even a little later than that. We had to have Left-inspired separatist movements here to really pump up the conception of a social-democratic society. My parents were Boomers and the first generation in their family that got to go to trade schools. I’m part of the first generation in my family that could go to university (and I took a really pragmatic major, though my interests outside of the science/math/engineering stuff were strong and I could conceive I’d be in academia today if I hadn’t had to start paying bills).
This conception of the middle class as something to aspire to and an achievable goal for the general public is less than a century old, and I’d dare say it was an abberation rather than a social law.
And you guys have no idea how happy it makes me to say you enjoyed it or that it was well designed. After the religion section turned my brain to jello, and all the discussion of class, I’m more than a bit worried I failed at my task.
(Brain you are not Brian, stop it!)
Thanks for that ‘splain, BlackBloc. Obviously I had no idea that the situation I was describing wasn’t the eternal nature of all economies everywhere.
It was exquisitely well-designed, Argenti, especially considering that you were volunteering to do it in your own time. Thank you for setting it up for all of us. If it has sparked a discussion about SES that can only be a good thing.
Oo, oo, I can answer this! NZ seems to follow a very similar pattern to the US, we’re just more left-leaning and socialist. So it’s probably applicable.
My partner is 47. When he was 18 he started working in quality control in a paint factory. He did a chemistry qualification at night school while working. When he was 26 he quit and went to the US for a working holiday. Came back and was offered a job in lower management. Has been there ever since, now he’s regional manager.
Our minimum wage is $13.75, I’m paid $16.50 as a vet nurse, which is average-ish. Their factory staff start on $20.50, get pay rises every year, get free work boots and clothes, get free health insurance (not normal here because we have subsidised healthcare and free emergency care), and a really good retirement plan. People have worked there for decades. He lets them leave early before a long weekend and buys them beers after stocktake. They pay overtime.
I have never had any of those things because I am 28 and started working rather later than him. I have worked at one place that gave yearly pay rises. The current one is not it.
Admittedly, his stories about the rest of the national management team reinforce and grow my prejudices. Most of them would happily shaft the lowest paid people in their company, and my partner aggressively defends his employees from them. They’re all right wing and when he questions their views they just stare at him like an alien. But anyway.
There’s always been an underclass: my brown grandmother and her siblings were part of it. But it most certainly was possible to get a job, keep a job, get steady increases in pay, and retire at the end of it not that long ago.
I’m just building on top of your comment. I always found it strange how my parents could say something like having a degree is a guarantee of a middle class lifestyle when it wasn’t even true when THEY were young and they had to actually work, hard, to make it true, and even then it only lasted for one generation (the one between my parents’ and mine).
RE: Argenti
I think the story you’re referring to is 5 Times BTU Flunked Gender?
RE: hrovitnir
I actually spent some time in your country! I remember just being shocked and floored that people couldn’t just get fired for no known reason. SORCERY. I remember having roughly the same issues getting hired there as I did here… but I was also on a short, one-year visa, and so that probably had a huge impact on my potential employers. Ain’t nobody wants a worker gone in six months.
RE: BlackBloc
I don’t really care anymore about being ‘proper’ middle class. By this point, I’d just settle living in a place intended for humans without fear it’s going to vanish in a month.
Just gonna write way too much in two comments, hopefully someone will actually want to read it. :P
OMGOMGOMG. I am so so sorry. Just thinking of how I left my cat with my mother when I was 17 and had to get away, and she basically had him PTS for being annoying hurts *so much*. Let alone a fire. I am so afraid of fires with all my animals.
Nonono, it was awesome and you are awesome. Thank you!
@Argenti – To be frank, I don’t think there’s a single definition of class that would have ended with everyone being completely sure how to categorize themselves. Class is just a messy lump of junk that way, in that it is too simplistic a concept for the sheer amount of variables and differences in thinking that go into deciding it.
That said, I’m going to jump on the bandwagon and explain that I put myself down as middle class even though I’m unemployed (and legally unemployable atmo, thanks a lot, year-long wait for residency application), because I have a bachelor’s degree, and my husband has his Ph.D., and even though our income is not really high (and because of things, is tenuous at best right now), we could conceivably ask our parents for money and get it, if we were having trouble paying rent or buying groceries.
I was just glad to see an option for “non-religious.” I hate it when the only options are “agnostic” or “atheist.” I literally just don’t think about religion enough to claim either of those. I prefer to believe in the power of people to do good, and to hope that people will do good. (And be sad when they don’t, but I know there are good people out there who do good things … and prefer not to waste brain cells hoping a deity exists and will take care of things.)
I think someone once said “apa-theist” and I would tend to lean in that direction. I just don’t care enough about religion to care, if that makes sense.
As for social class, I really wasn’t sure what to put. I live in what I might call poverty, but because I’m “between educations” right now I have my parents paying rent for me since my rent would be 100% of my income. I’m not in any danger of poverty or homelessness because my parents wouldn’t let it come to that, but I make less than $700 a month and work 15-30 hours/week. And have two discrete college degrees. :/ Hrmm. Something seems wrong with this …
Aaaand WordPress is back to switching my nyms again. Has anyone found a way to prevent this? o__O
The first time someone explained at-will employment to me my response was “how can that be legal?”.
Also wtf, mom of Argenti’s ex.
Actually, sorry Cassandra, that sounded a bit dismissive of your view of me as having ‘splained.
I *intended* to only build on top of your comment, adding more details, not as a “pfsheh, you’re wrong and here’s how”. I am sorry that I may have failed to get it across in that manner.
No worries, it just initially came across as assuming that I wouldn’t know those things (which tends to raise the ire of any long-time socialist).
Yeah and I didn’t notice it might come across that way *because* I knew you as a long-time socialist and thought it was matter of course you knew this.
RE: CassandraSays
What’s at-will employment?
Your employer can fire you at any time, they don’t need a reason, and you have no legal recourse if they do.
Yeah, at-will employment has been a huge culture shock for us as well!
@dustydeste
Maybe stupid question, but did you change your wordpress profile to automatically fill in the username you want?
I’m really curious now to know if those hits from Sri Lanka was basically just Explore Nature and me, or if there are lurkers from Sri Lanka.
Ok, it’s beyond obvious that any stats using class will need a disclaimer about how the class variable results are kinda iffy. In any case, that variable has a nice bell curve to it, and about 30% of us answered working or lower class. So no, our chunk of feminism is not a middle class or higher thing. What is surprising is that we have a handful of upper class people. Then again, with almost a thousand replies at this point it was almost inevitable. Things surprise me that probably shouldn’t.
And yep LBT, that’s the one, thanks!
Huh? Nobody in Sri Lanka yet, did I accidentally list it?
Any upper class cis hetero men? Or are our upper class contributors mostly women, gay/bi, trans*, or a combo of these?
gamblingdementor — cuz I’m an idiot who lumped general communism with other socialism. Sorry!
Did you get a Welcome Package yet?
(I haz a theory, but will probably be rebuked because over many people we’re bound to have at least one really unusual individual.)
@Nepenthe
Thanks for the clarification! Maybe I thought that because when my sister went to US people would start speaking to her in Spanish all the time.
BlackBloc — give me a sec, that’s going to be a little complex to check.
You can wait until you do the full survey results though, I’m just curious. :)
@Shadow: I don’t thiiiink I did anything… I think it’s mainly that I was commenting here without a WordPress account under the nym girlofthegaps, but then when I registered, that was taken (probably by me a few years ago, lol, but I can’t remember the password or email that I used), and now sometimes the site gets confused about which one I am.
Usually the switch happens if I’ve logged into one of my periphery Gmail accounts, and WordPress asks me to log in again when I submit a comment. Once that comment gets submitted (as girlofthegaps), it reverts to the dustydeste nym for all subsequent comments.
One, and he’s white. Two cis white upper class men, but the other is bi/pan/omnisexual.
(FTR, if either of them see this, I can’t tell who you are, just what you put and with only a handful of upper class people, that’s a fair amount. Sorry if this is squicky but I promise all I can see is your answers.)
The other four are cis women btw, but two checked non-white things on the r/mr question. And *scratches head* apparently people are checking multiple of the gay/lesbian, bi/pan/omni and heterosexual boxes…odd…
BlackBloc — I can filter what we have so far when the parameters are that narrow. Asking me the religions of the middle class people would be another matter!
An off-the-cuff comment by my dad, made years ago (and could well be a conspiracy theory):
Around WWI, there was a marketing effort to make university very attractive to young people so that they would get off the farms, experience city life, and not want to go back, leaving farmers to choice but to (eventually) sell out to the agribusiness industry. So they started this meme that going to university is ALWAYS a better option, and that you were a failure as a parent if your kids didn’t go.
Dunno if it’s true that it was a conscious effort, but it seems to have been fairly effective if it was.
“And you guys have no idea how happy it makes me to say you enjoyed it or that it was well designed. After the religion section turned my brain to jello, and all the discussion of class, I’m more than a bit worried I failed at my task.”
It’s pretty hard to be 100% inclusive, especially in such a short time frame. But I think you did a pretty good job. I don’t think I’ve taken a survey that accounted for so many before this one.
One thing this survey also reminded me of was my tendency to think of myself as middle class and put that down, even though I never have been, and neither has my family (they also consider themselves middle class). I caught myself this time, though!
RE: CassandraSays
Your employer can fire you at any time, they don’t need a reason, and you have no legal recourse if they do.
Oh, you mean my life. Seriously, I was flabbergasted that anything OTHER than that existed; I didn’t know till I hit New Zealand. (In my experience, work is generally trading your mental health for food, housing, and money–and you can usually only obtain two of three.)
@Argenti
Sorry, I should have clarified, that’s in response to David’s comment about where he gets hits from.
@dustydeste
If you click on your name in the top right corner of the window, it will take you to your account settings. Click on “Public Profile” and check if your public display name is the one you want. If it is, then I’m stumped because that’s the limit of my wordpress knowledge :P
RE: Argenti
Glad I got the story right!
Wow, amazed at how many people are filling out the survey! I’m inclined to let the survey run through monday to catch people who haven’t checked in on MB over the weekend, though that could be extended if we keep getting more results.
Argenti, if you suddenly start getting a bunch of troll results, you should probably shut it down then.
Other thoughts: Hispanic is obviously a problematic category, especially cross-culturally. In the US, people generally do see it as a clear category, but demographers also classify many Hispanics as white and use categories like “white Hispanic” and “non-Hispanic white.”
As for nationality, I’ll put up some data on traffic by country when I put up the survey results. If we want to see how many *people* are in different questions I can do a quick one-question followup poll using wordpress’ little poll gadget, or something else if it doesn’t allow me enough categories.
This whole experience makes me think I should do polls on a regular basis here, at least quick little one or two question polls if not necessarily big ones like this.
@Shadow: Yeah, my public display name is set to dustydeste *throws up hands* Who knows?
Shadow, well, I’ve gotten 631 hits in the last year from Sri Lanka, which I’m guessing is probably, well, you and maybe a scattering of people who’ve looked at MB once or twice.
What happened to Explore Nature anyway? Did he get lost?
RE: CassandraSays
The way his mind works, could you really blame him?
“In my experience, work is generally trading your mental health for food, housing, and money–and you can usually only obtain two of three.”
And my psych thinks I’m giving up by seeking disability. No, you stupid idiot, I’m picking my sanity for once in my fucking life. Being broke works, I’m cool with having next to nothing left after rent, hell, I spent 7 years loving Pittsburgh while buying fish food before human food!
David — so far 77% are coming from here and 15% from kwiksurveys itself, I’m guessing those are where people copy and pasted the link instead of clicking it. The rest look like RSS feed readers. And I’m really not sure how’d I’d even tell if I have trolls, other than if I start getting reddit or AVfM refers or similar. We are very white, but it looks legit — that is, most of the replies are from largely white countries and the numbers seem to match between the questions (perhaps more importantly, there’s a notable difference between white — European and white — all others, which I wouldn’t expect it they were padding the numbers).
I mean, unless we have another person in Israel, Eurosabra’s dropped by, but he’s not what you meant I don’t think. A handful of political views I’d not expect (e.g. A couple totalitarian // neo-nazi // similar) — certainly not enough to really skew the data though.
One thing I am going to have to do is work out what the fuck ethnic averages I should be expecting based on the countries replying, since we don’t have that reddit baseline to compare it to. Mm weighted averages!
@David
I was in SL in September, so I reckon I probably only accounted for maybe 100-120 hits. I think this means you’ve made it to the “Livin Large” stage of blogging! Take a bow.
@Cassandra
Judging by his comments, I think his exploration finally led him to nature, and the cultural shock has left him catatonic
Put another, simpler way, 77% (760~) of the replies came straight from here. Another 15% (150~) seem to have copy and pasted the link, so almost certainly came from here.
If I get refers on reddit or MRM sites, I’ll close it, but other than that I don’t see how I could detect trolls. Looks like there are just A Lot of lurkers, like 2/3rds of the replies checked off that they’re lurkers.
We have cupcakes! Come say hi!
RE: Argenti
And my psych thinks I’m giving up by seeking disability.
You too? I’ve had some folks give me crap about seeking disability. But it’s been a year, still crazy, and I’m hitting the road in part because… well, I’m gonna be homeless either way, I might as well make an adventure out of it. But taking care of myself has been a huge relief, even with the added stress of basic necessities. At least I don’t have to worry about juggling all my negative coping mechanisms to keep things going.
Like, seriously! I’m typing with one hand and a finger cuz ice pops are yummy. Otherwise mostly sane, usually, sleeping, well, that’s probably never going to happen. But not currently being suicidal apparently means I can’t know that working always makes me suicidal. ARGH!
Oh and add Slovenia to the list.
RE: Argenti
Yeah, and like, I’ve been able to work before, I’d like to be able to do it again… but having to choose between my sanity and my basic necessities is an AWFUL choice to have to make, and is only going to lead to me drunkenly reeling back and forth from one to the other.
So right now, I’m trying to find ways I can work, earn a little scratch, and NOT go bugfuck. (I really don’t think it’s a coincidence I wrote stuff like ‘Struck’ and ‘Six Weeks to Recovery’ when I was getting sicker and sicker.) It’s why I’ve thrown writeathons, and am printing up stories to sell, and Sneak’s pet-sitting and stuff. Every little dollar counts, and doing it in ways that are healthy and strengthening for me (even if I have to rest way more than I’d like) is a good thing to learn.
@Argenti, just wanted to say thanks for putting that survey together. I thought you did a great job.
“…drunkenly reeling back and forth from one to the other.”
Probably literally in my case >.<
We broke 1,000 btw!
Sorry to pop in and derail but this was fun. Fun was much needed. And my intricate power-point presentation of the type of cat I embody and why? Well it is not to be sniffed at. Unless you are also a Chartreux. Then have at it.
Argenti:
Take the survey!
~Argenti
Derail away! Cats are always on topic!
David — you can safely tell the MRM that you are only 2% of your commenters and somehow have more than 50 IPs!
Whoops, closer to ten if we include cats and ferrets in David suits. Which brings you to at least 100 IPs.
well hot shit, dave, I filled out your survey and had a great time doing it. can’t wait to see our demographic breakdown.
RE: Argenti
Pfah. Due to meds, I’m forbade drinking. I’m not really bothered by this most of the time, but Mac used to bartend. He misses his alcohol.
Some of the atheists in the Oak Ridge Unitarian Universalist congregation were demanding that the next pastor be an atheist, recently.
I had to pause to collect my brains, because the thought that there were atheists who went to church stopped me cold.
And congrats to Wordsp1nner!
Eh, I’m forbidden from getting drunk, or drinking and expecting to do anything besides pass out. But since that’s the point…
Perks of having an on demand pharmacy student, ze’s willing to answer my student questions without the social judgement (of course “it won’t kill you, but really Argenti? Maybe cut back?” Isn’t exactly judgement free…)
Favorite though was “Advil bottle says [dose] and I know you can get a script for more, how much more?” “You can double it, just don’t do it for more than a few days if you like your stomach” excellent
RE: Argenti
(of course “it won’t kill you, but really Argenti? Maybe cut back?” Isn’t exactly judgement free…)
Shouldn’t speak on that. I have a friend who’s got a drinking problem, and we had a pretty big fight when I refused to support what he was doing.
I AM A PIRATE ROBOT DINOSAUR! RAAAAWR!
Jesus fuck, Argenti, that’s awful. Have ALL THE HUGS!
Eh, I more have my weeks, like, a few a year. So yeah. And ze and *cough*pecunium*cough* are polite about it. More in the vein of concern than anything that’.l turn into a fight (pretty sure neither is thrilled that I started smoking again though, but pecunium hasn’t said anything on that one)
MrFancyPants — lol, but are you David?!
Falconer — yeah, and I didn’t like her in the first place (the feeling was mutual), so that just cemented my opinion that she’s a horrible person.
Argenti: Not really relevant, but anyone else here encounter the assholes who assume having gone to college makes you less worthy of respect than them because clearly you’re too good for their lifestyle?
Yes. It’s part and parcel of the “American Ideal” and the Conservative attack on, “Intellectual Elites” (which is part and parcel of their oligarchic tendency: it’s not that you graduated from the top of your class which matters, it’s that you went to Andover, or Cranbrook).
So “book larnin'” is mocked, while “going to the right schools” is praised. It’s part of the dichotomous nature of our origins. I commend “Albion’s Seed” for how some of how this combines.
LBT: Being fairly young, I’ve actually wanted to ask the older folks I know about this. Because I kinda assume that world is just some collective cultural fantasy that never existed, and that things have always sucked like this. Is it not so?
It is not so. From about 1940-1980 people who became adult were doing better than their parents.
Between some changes to the SEC rules under Nixon, and Reagan breaking the Unions, the trend has reversed, and it’s snowballing.
@Argenti: “And *scratches head* apparently people are checking multiple of the gay/lesbian, bi/pan/omni and heterosexual boxes…odd…”
Well, I was tempted to do that. I am pansexual, but I consider myself a lesbian (and call myself one) because I only date women. It’s likely that’s the case with others who’ve checked gay/lesbian or hetero and omni. No clue if you’ve got people checking all three though :P
Well, my second screed did not happen back-to-back because I had an exam. 3/4 done for my first half of my first year! Stats was pretty shit and I will be so sad if I have to re-do it (my own fault, but seriously, I am not a fan of rote learning. I know the concepts, but why do science majors have to memorise all the formula?!?!), chem was worse than expected because I was really down and kind of gave up on studying, plus we were meant to have more organic chemistry than inorganic and physical because we didn’t do an in-term test for that and… we didn’t. I loves naming, and we only got 2 questions on it!! Still, I almost can’t fail since my course work is sitting on an A-. Just did cell bio, was pretty sweet, should definitely get an A overall unless I am much mistaken in my impressions. Just human evolution and sexuality exam to go, which requires freaking essays, but I’m not too concerned about it really. Just gotta brush up on my hominid names in the next couple of days.
Makes me so sad. There are migrant worker jobs fruit picking and similar if you can handle it, money can be pretty good, but our job market’s still pretty bad the last few years. When were you here?
I have to say, as much as I HATEHATEHATE a lot of what our current conservative government has been doing (basically got rid of overtime and made it so your employer can demand a health certificate for *one* day off work, shit like that –oh, and asset sales. Because everyone knows what a good idea that is!), I’m pretty OK with re-allowing 3-month trial periods. As someone who is a very hard worker with a (previously) very average CV, I appreciate the opportunity to get in that way. And it doesn’t really empower dickheads to screw employees over any more than they already do.
I find that whole thing… bizarre. I mean, I’m bitter as shit about the fact that you need to be qualified to do bullshit jobs, but students are seen as slackers, but we need qualified people, but we’re stingy as shit about student allowances, oh and of course you can’t get a job if you’re overqualified… it’s like someone’s just tried to make being entering the workforce as difficult as possible! Never mind house prices these days… and I know for a fact our economy and job market is better than the US. It’s bad enough here. I pretty much get by because my partner makes a decent amount of money. I resent greatly that while I trust him not to be a douche if we split up, I am in a position of being unable to be independent, and if we split up he will have to keep all the animals because there is no way I can afford what housing would let me have them. :’(
Ahh, I didn’t realise you didn’t live in the UK! Makes sense. I think so long as you have to option to go back to the UK, the US can be more comfortable? My friend moved back home to California and was rapt by the improvement in quality of life as a low-income person. But it’s because her family has money, and consumables are cheap. So no social system, no healthcare, but cheaper, comfortable accommodation and lower bills for food and clothes etc.
Where you from in the UK? Do you stay in the US because of friends/family, or do you prefer it where you are?
That whole things is deeply confusing to me. I get the distinct impression that the number of South Americans who actually identify as “Hispanic” is perhaps low? Even if they speak Spanish? If we had time to make the best possible ethnicity options, whilst not listing every possible country, I would be really interested.
Argenti: I mean, unless we have another person in Israel, Eurosabra’s dropped by
€Sob-brah is in Los Angeles.
(pretty sure neither is thrilled that I started smoking again though, but pecunium hasn’t said anything on that one
Unless you want to be close enough that I have have to smell it on your breath, we’re cool. I’m very much a personal libertarian on the, “if the only person you are risking is yourself, it’s your life,” side of things.