Tempest in a Bee Cup: TheWoolyBumblebee expelled from A Voice for Men for making angry men even angrier


More drama at A Voice for Men! Kristina Hansen — the excitable FeMRA videoblogger better known as TheWoolybumblebee — has been tossed off the good ship AVFM by Master and Commander Paul Elam for what he calls her “constant public conflicts with elements of our community.”

You can hear her side of the case in the video below. She claims to be shocked — shocked! — to find that Elam expected his contributors to toe his ideological line. And even more shocked to find him making generalizations about women — something, Ms.Bumblebee claims, that makes him no better than the feminists he criticizes!

Yeah, the trouble with ex-AVFMers is that they were dunderheaded enough to have signed up as AVFMers in the first place. (When we last met her here on Man Boobz she was returning a pair of misandric pants to the store, outraged that a tiny portion of the profits would go to help girls facing oppression in the developing world.)

Before you watch the whole video, though — it’s 14 minutes long — you might want some of the backstory. It’s long and messy, too, but I’ll try to keep it  as brief as I can.

First, I should probably note the irony in Elam’s explanation for her dismissal, given that Elam himself is well-known for his own “constant public conflicts” with others in the Men’s Rights movement and the manosphere in general, having launched very public attacks on various others in the past — most notably on Pickup artists — and responding with intemperate anger towards pretty much everyone who even mildly disagrees with him about anything in public.

Heck, at one point he got so annoyed by people disagreeing with him on the Men’s Rights subreddit that he tried to set up his own Men’s Rights Activists subreddit where he could ban the people he disliked; it never took off and he abandoned it.

Elam’s pink-slipping of Ms. Bumblebee is doubly ironic, because one of the issues she’s been involved in “constant public conflicts” about has been MGTOW. (She’s not a fan.)

You might think that wouldn’t be a problem, as A Voice for Men has not exactly been on the best of terms with a big chunk of the MGTOW community for some time. The regulars on MGTOWforums, the biggest MGTOW hub, regularly refer to AVFM as “A Voice for Manginas” and worse; they’re especially offended that Elam lets women — sorry, “cunts” — post there. Elam has responded by denouncing the “MGTOW Forum Fuckwits.” The war of not-so-nice words seems never-ending; for some recent examples on MGTOWforums here and here — and in AVFM’s own forum here.

But Elam apparently still thinks he can somehow charm those MGTOWers who don’t already hate his guts, and he’s been making some efforts to get their attention lately — a fact that has not escaped his non-fans over on MGTOWforums, who have been decidedly unimpressed with his efforts so far.

So Elam was none too happy when Ms. Bumblebee started making videos attacking MGTOWers head on — videos which caused a little firestorm of controvery in the MGTOW world and got MGTOWers even madder at AVFM for putting up with such an evil “wench.”

Ms. Bumblebee has also been saying less than kind things about libertarianism for months on her blog, on YouTube, and on Twitter, where she bluntly declared it a “a cancer within the MRM.”

Turns out that was a bit of a faux pas. Though AVFM pretends to be “apolitical,” and has a few people associated with it who consider themselves liberal, most of the “big names” there  — not just Elam but John “the Other” Hembling, and Karen (GirlWritesWhat) Straughan — pretty obviously lean libertarian.

Indeed, in a not-very-friendly comment on Reddit about Ms. Bumblebee’s departure from AVFM, Straughan suggests that she’s essentially a “a child …  having a tantrum,” who doesn’t appreciate that the Men’s Rights movement is all about “free thinkers and John Galts.” (Yeah, she really did say that.)

She also accuses Ms. B of not reading enough E Belfort Bax — which is, I have to admit, the first time I’ve ever seen anyone accused of that particular crime in a political debate.

In case you’re not yourself a Baxhead, he was an opponent of women’s suffrage perhaps best known for his 1913 essay “The Fraud of Feminism,” a rather obscure piece of writing that’s having a sort of revival amongst a certain segment of the Men’s Rights movement. Indeed, A Voice for Men recently reprinted a portion of Bax’s essay with a glowing and altogether uncritical introduction by Elam himself.

It’s actually rather revealing. A Voice for Men is happy to republish the work of a long dead author who thought that women should be denied the right to vote. But a live woman who doesn’t agree with Elam about libertarianism or MGTOWers — over the side she goes!

Here’s her video. If you don’t want to watch the whole thing, you could just skip ahead to 5:20 to hear her express her astonishment that Elam would make sweeping generalizations about all women (say it ain’t so!), or to about 7:50 where she sets forth her basic complaint about AVFM and the way she says she was treated by Elam et al.

If you only have a couple of minutes, or limited patience for YouTube videos, at least listen to the excerpts of the testy phone conversation with Elam in which she officially learned she was no longer a part of AVFM; they start at about 10:40.

Ms. B has labeled this video Part 1. I don’t know how many more parts are coming. But I’ll certainly be watching.

For the masochists among you, Elam has put up the entire conversation he had with Ms. B — it’s half an hour long, and I listened to the whole damn thing.  I assume he thinks it makes him look better and her look worse, but, you know, it really, really doesn’t. Unless you’re really into patronizing mansplaining and apologias for angry misogyny amongst MRAs and MGTOWers. He concludes by throwing a little fit and hanging up. Or maybe she hangs up. I can’t tell.

Ms. B., when she can get a word in edgewise, makes a lot of very good points in the call, bluntly and directly calling him on his some of his bullshit; it’s only when she starts going on about the evils of feminism that I remember how warped her worldview really is.

Alongside the video, Elam also posted the email he sent Ms. B dismissing her from AVFM, which confirms that he was indeed pissed off by what he calls her “divisive conduct” towards MGTOWers and all those John Galts of the MRM.

About David Futrelle

I run the blog We Hunted the Mammoth, which tracks (and mocks) online misogyny. My writing has appeared in a wide variety of places, including Salon, Time.com, the Washington Post, the New York Times Book Review and Money magazine. I like cats.

Posted on June 4, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, douchebaggery, drama, entitled babies, FemRAs, hypocrisy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, misandry, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, straw feminists and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 298 Comments.

  1. Maybe his views are limited but I see no reason to be this harsh.

  2. See, my problem isn’t with being rejected, it’s with a chemical imbalance in the brain. But you keep on fucking that chicken.

    I wasn’t even trying to be mean here. I didn’t realize you meant actual depression, I honestly thought you meant you were just blue. Sorry about that, I really am.

  3. @Aruba

    Maybe his views are limited but I see no reason to be this harsh.

    ::Shrugs:: What was harsh besides the vulgarity? I mean, I know I said ‘tell me if I’m being an asshole’ but I’d kind of like a how, instead of just ‘harsh’. I may be being more confrontational than usual because I’m just so tired with this stuff…I don’t know if I’m making any sense…

  4. @Detached

    I wasn’t even trying to be mean here. I didn’t realize you meant actual depression, I honestly thought you meant you were just blue. Sorry about that, I really am.

    Sorry accepted, I suppose :/ Just kinda tired cuz what I said was:

    especially since I get tired of people telling me if I just try harder to do shit I wouldn’t be depressed

    So, it was kinda actually in there :/ Though I suppose sometimes people do use depressed when they just mean blue, but they really shouldn’t.

  5. Marie, you called him asshole, and you sounded angry. I think that if that comment were directed to me I would feel sad. I have the habit of trying to be in the skin of other people… I don’t know if it’s a good habit or a bad habit yet. Maybe both.

    But you make sense. I know what you’re talking about, I really do. And sometimes I also snap.

  6. *I don’t know if I used the word “snap” correctly… English is not my first language and I don’t want to mess up

  7. @Aruba

    I don’t know if ‘snap’ was right either. But yeah, you’re right, it probably would have been better to be more polite. I just tend to get tired of this stuff. I mean, on one hand Detached didn’t mean it in a hurtful way, so reacting angrily wasn’t really the best thing, but on the other hand I just don’t really like feeling like I owe people politeness when they say something like that. Idk if I’m making any sense. I probably should try to un-morning-ify my brain.

  8. @Marie

    Haha, yes you make sense.

    (By “snap” I meant that I lose my cool too sometimes)

  9. *Anyone who’s not a troll can tell me if I’m being a huge asshole. But I’m just so tired of this shit, hence all the vulgarity, and zero fucks about Detached’s fee-fees.

    I don’t think you’re being harsh Marie. This exchange reminded me of a Captain Awkward post (and of course I can’t find it now), where someone wrote in about being down because of a shitty BF and weight gain. Intially some commenters chimed in with the typcial “how about walking?” “Have you tried eating more fruit?” etc. Those commenters have good intentions, but they don’t realize this is basic shit everyone knows, so no need to repead that ad nauseum.

    I don’t have depression, Sir Briz does – guys, he just left for Afghanistan for four months. No guarantee of a good wifi connenction for skype. :( – but he has told me similar frustrations when people try to talk to him about his depression. At one point someone said: “Can’t you just…stop being sad?” UGH!

  10. @Briznecko

    “Can’t you just stop being sad?” At that one I would definitely snap!

    I’m sorry for your bf/husband, I hope he gets better soon.

  11. He’s my Bf, sorry that wasn’t clear. We plan on being long term, though! So, maybe someday husband after lots and lots of conversations. :D

  12. Oh, and he’s not down now. He’s on top of his depression and is doing really good! The only problem is he’ll be away for the next four months and I’m gonna miss the shit out of him :(

  13. Aruba – once an MRA isn’t an MRA any longer, fine. There are a few Manboozers who fit that description, and they’re fine people. But the MRAs we quote here? The ones wallowing in hate? They can get back to us when they’ve decided to rejoin humanity instead of hating half of it. More than half, given what racists, homophobes and trans*phobes they are.

  14. @Marie – do you like autumn, or would you like to swap your autumn for our summer? That’d balance things out!

    Speaking of having tails and ears, did you see the pic I made of Sir’s experiment back in March?

  15. Aruba, Detached’s comments coming on top of the ones that had a certain “oh poor MRAs” sound to them were a bit much. Like Marie, I’m not sure zie’s here in good faith, either. The “people just need to get a job and make $$$$!” shit is irritating me, too. Hard work =/= satisfying work even when it’s possible to do it. It also doesn’t equal making a living wage. Just ask any waitstaff.

  16. @kittehs

    @Marie – do you like autumn, or would you like to swap your autumn for our summer? That’d balance things out!

    Hmm. I don’t know. I like early autumn/ late spring. Anytime the weather’s over 70 :) I actually don’t mind it cold terribly, just not the hugest fan.

    And no, I didn’t see the pic. Yay for seeing it now :D So jelly of that tail XD

  17. Yeah, after all my fighting with SSI, I am definitely sick of “well maybe if you just tried some sort of work it wouldn’t make you suicidal”. Like no, I will not be improving my life through a job, nor any other endeavor that causes me to get all self-blame when I get too depressed to deal with it.

  18. Marie – I took a snap of Maddie’s tail for that pic! :D

    Speaking of whom, just got back from the vet for her six-month checkup (she’s very healthy and has lost a smidgin of weight – yay!). My arms are now covered in scratches from trying to get her into her basket, and she had her revenge by taking a dump in the basket on the way up there. Now she’s lying around looking like she’s the one who had to do all the work!

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