Dating guru Alex Matlock: Sex with women who fear you and push you away might not be much fun
Protip: This does not mean “yes.”
So “dating” guru Roosh has a post up on his Return of Kings blog by another self-professed dating guru, Alex Matlock, who rates various types of “bad sex” according to the type of female partner who’s involved in them, including such charmingly named types as “The one that tries too much (aka The Disaster)” and “The one that doesn’t move (aka The Starfish or The Doll).”
I expected a good deal of standard-issue manosphere misogyny in Matlock’s list, but I honestly couldn’t make it past his description of what he regards as the second-worst type of female sex partner: “The one that’s scared (aka The Virgin).” Because what he’s describing doesn’t sound so much like “bad sex” as “date rape.”
[TRIGGER WARNING for what follows; emphasis mine.]
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This girl doesn’t necessarily have to be a virgin because she can still act the part many years after she’s popped that priceless cherry. She will usually look at you with fear in her eyes as if she has no idea about what’s going to happen. She gently pushes you away as if she’s not ready for the event and when it does happen she continues to act like it’s the first time. She usually sits in some extremely awkward positions that make you give up and just go missionary. This girl will eventually bust your nut but she’ll surely leave you with a sense of disappointment and/or guilt.
Uh, Mr. Matlock, I’m hoping for everyone’s sake that this is a hypothetical “humorous” scenario you’ve come up with for the sake of this article and not something you’ve been a part of in the actual real world on a regular basis, because, unless you’ve left out that portion of the hypothetical events in which the woman in question clearly and unequivocally consents to having sex with your hypothetical protagonist here, what you’ve just described as “bad sex” (for the hypothetical dude) is actually a description of, well, rape from the point of view of the rapist.
In which case that twinge of guilt your hypothetical protagonist hypothetically feels is probably just the tiny part of his hypothetical self that’s still human reacting to the fact that he JUST (hypothetically) FUCKING RAPED SOMEONE.
MRAs and PUAs and manospherean assholes generally like to pretend that consent is some weird and mysterious thing, but it’s really not. Here’s a hint: if a women looks at you with fear in her eyes and pushes you away all while sitting in a position that makes sex difficult …. all that means NO.
The fact that Matlock — despite those twinges of guilt — still doesn’t regard this as the worst kind of “bad sex” (for the guy) but merely the second-worst adds a certain level of absurdity to the horror.
Given Roosh’s publication of this piece by Matlock, and the fact that he himself has already confessed to committing what would be considered date rape by American standards by having sex with at woman too inebriated to give consent, perhaps it’s time to stop referring to Roosh as a dating guru and to start referring to him as a date rape guru.
I don’t really have anything else to say.
Here, as brain bleach, are some cats with smaller versions of themselves:
Posted on May 25, 2013, in creepy, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, narcissism, playing the victim, PUA, rape, rape culture, rhymes with roosh, victim blaming and tagged misogyny, pickup artists, PUA, rape, rape culture. Bookmark the permalink. 851 Comments.
I don’t like people using chronic illness as an excuse for women not to say no*. It’s personal for me because a) I’m a woman, and b) I have a chronic illness.
*That’s what it seemed like you were saying earlier (when you said when a woman said no at the end, you wanted to scream “WRONG ANSWER”). here if you’ve forgotten.
Wow this thread exploded while I was getting dished ready for more cakes
@black fedora
I see you’ve taken the ‘everyone is a shitty human being, others just hide it better’.
all the projection.
“garden path”? The fuck? Also, Roosh pretty much wrote about raping someone up there. You support him. What does this say about you?
@CassandraSays I have to wait 2 hours because my friend doesn’t get off work until then :(
She’ll get me what I need though. She is awesome. She was going to ask her bf to pick stuff up, but I told her no. lol Her bf is nice, but it would be awkward for us both if he came.
Besides if she comes she will stay awhile and help out. Anything that helps with pain+nausea is great.
I think I should see a gynecologist about this though. I feel like the cramps have been getting worse month after month.
OK you got me back. The post was not by Roosh. It was on his blog but he did not write it. Furthermore I only support Roosh when he is misrepresented. Presumably I will now be accused on the basis that ‘only a witch will defend a witch’.
Blacky: So, on what specific points do you support Roosh?
@the black fedora
What are we misinterpreting? And (from the damn article at the top of the page):
Yes, I do think it makes you a shitty person that you’re defending a rapist.
@CassandraSays, Eurosabra
Consider yourselves enlightened.
French silk pie is probably one of the greatest pies I have ever tasted. Pistachio pudding pie is also fabulous, but I think that most people are disgusted by it.
The Traditional Medicinals tea a regular supermarket might have! The cramp bark is stronger, though, I use the raspberry leaf tea more as a preventative/regular thing to stop the cramps from arriving at all.
And Eurosabra is back to being awful. I knew the moment of clarity was too good to last. Dude, there’s nothing wrong with feeling disappointed if a potential dating scenario doesn’t work out how you’d hoped, it’s the point at which you start thinking that your disappointment imposes any obligation on other people to mitigate it, or justifies your disregarding someone else’s no, where your behavior crosses over from “reasonable” to “totally unreasonable and also creepy”.
So the pie is a chocolate mousse of sorts topped with…whipped cream?
“So the pie is a chocolate mousse of sorts topped with…whipped cream?”
Pretty much.
Wow. Delicious.
BTW just as a general information blast, raspberry leaf tea is supposed to help with acne and other skin irritation issues too.
Do you have Nations (small burger joint chain) in the South Bay? I’m not a big pie person but Mr C is and he likes their pies a lot.
South Bay? As far as I can tell, it’s all over the Bay Area. There’s even one close to where I live.
Shrug. So I can feel horrible about being rejected, and hold my tongue. My thoughts and feelings are my own affair. Actually voicing the sentiment of “You don’t actually get to say no” is either A)Part of an explicitly-negotiated kink scenario B)Boorish, if you don’t present a threat or C)Terrifying, if you do. And I have no interest in introducing boorishness or terror to a situation in which I am simply the not-quite-getting-it guy who seems to be biting his tongue.
Um, eurosabra, it is a threat.
You could also drop the martyr act about how horrible it is to be asked to hold your tongue in order to avoid discomfiting or scaring other people.
Okay, so hold your tongue. *shrug*. But you WEREN’T in this case. You were talking to us (not holding your tongue) about how you wanted to say that. So… you were still spewing your creepy attitudes at us, which we’re allowed to judge you for.
Nope. Violating someone’s boundaries is inherently threatening.
I think there are some people whose bodies are read such that they could not make that statement sound threatening. I think somebody exceptionally attractive might be excused for it, especially if female-bodied or if it could be passed off as a joke, or somebody whose body could be read as non-threatening for cultural reasons related to disability, stature, or other status. That quibble aside, I agree that it is threatening from a “reasonable person” standard but I think there are some contexts in which and people for whom which it would not be instantly *terrifying*. It’s still boorish and ridiculous, unless delivered as part of a scene.
Whether it’s frightening to the rejector is entirely dependent on that person’s level of comfort.
Shut up, Eurosabra. You can even make French Silk pie creepy as fuck. Buzz off.
I see Pell got a day pass for the computer.
Again, never having said that to anyone, I don’t have any way to judge. I would offer to attempt to gather survey data, but my bones would take too long to knit.
No one cares about your bones or boners EuroCreep. Shoo.
I should be allowed to be boorish, dammit! On this strategically important hill I shall die.
Sure, if you want to, but everyone else will make their judgements about you accordingly.
Does anyone else get the feeling that Eurosabra’s recent fondness for the phrase “explicitly-negotiated” is a thinly-veiled attempt to make us forget all the times he talked about PUA as non-negotiated and non-consensual “kink?” Because that’s definitely the vibe I’m getting.
@Gametime
I missed those times, so I can’t comment, but in that context you supplied, it is definitely skeeving me out.
/shrug
Sure, it’s possible there could be contingent tangents that make the situation, at the time, less threatening or even not threatening at all.
It’s not a grand statement, and yes, you are right there!
It just doesn’t, well, matter much. Violating boundaries is still threatening, you just lucked out that other circumstances made it less so.
q:
@eurosabra
Nope. It is a threat. Bodies don’t change that.
Wow. Okay lets see:
1) still a threat if you’re attractive
2)still a threat if a girl says it
3) still a threat if someone with a disability says it
wow. What do you know, it doesn’t matter who says it its still a threat. Looks like you are full of shit ::drumroll:: Again!
The “you only get to feel threatened if I think you should feel threatened” trope is particularly strong in the manosphere. I’ve seen thread after thread on r/mr of guys super offended because some woman on the street gave them the side-eye or actually looked frightened of them. Yet they sure love to bust out the threatening “nice gender you’ve got there, shame if something were to happen to it” language.
Melody, sorry you’re in pain! Hope CassandraSays’ remedies can help.
@ Gametime
Yep. Which isn’t doing his credibility in general any favors. If you’re going to be an asshole you should at least be honest about it.
One of the interesting things about PUA is responding to situations which are well-defined with the assertion that their meaning is the opposite of the ostensibly-observable one, because the world is opaque unless revealed by the discernment of one who has Lifted The Veil. Or it’s just imposing one’s kink without safewords, opt-out or even labeling the début of the scene as such to let people know it’s a scene.
I actually would feel less threatened by that statement coming from a person who I didn’t think was capable of physically overpowering me. That doesn’t make the statement itself OK, though.
BDSM à l’envers, deliberately setting out to do it all wrong, yes, possibly…
That’s not solely a PUA thing.
One of the interesting things about life is responding to situations which are well-defined with the assertation that their meaning is the opposite of the ostensibly observable one, because the world is opaque unless revelead by some discernment nominally omniscient.
That works for everything
One of the interesting things about pickles is responding to situations whihc are well-defined…
one of the interesting things about swords is responding to situations which are well-defined…
—
Still makes the assumption that you can violate borders “If you do it correctly” a pretty terrible assumption.
That’s a pretty fancy way of saying “PUA is all about denying observable facts.”
I suppose one could call it “interesting”, in much the same way that the Milgram experiment was interesting.
Can we discuss the meaning of pickles for a while? What is the ostensibly observable meaning of pickles? What is its opposite?
A) Attractiveness does not change your ability to violate people’s boundaries
B) neither does being female, though women are perceived as less of a threat than men. That’s not good, though.
C) okay, so people with disabilities are read as unthreatening, and are probably less capable of physically holding someone down and raping them, but I find it very infantilizing to act like a threatening statement from an able-bodied person suddenly turns “joking” from a PWD. It feels like the creepy desire for control is still there, even if the rejecter may not feel that person has the force to back it up with.
The meaning of pickles is yum.
Yeah, I’m just not seeing it, for whatever reason. I think it comes from the idea that a man’s “No” is an impossibility, such that a woman saying “You don’t get to say no” comes off as incredible, literally, not credible as a threat, because a woman pushing boundaries seems improbable, because of the default level of women’s supposed desire being meh and women’s greater socialization towards catering to other people.
The opposite of pickle is the fresh produce. The meaning of pickle is to preserve food so that we may sustain our Physical Bodies, even whilst Time passes and the fresh produce is long decayed. The pickle represents Man’s fear of Death and his attempt to triumph over it.
The meaning of the pickle is deliciousness. It’s opposite is the cucumber, which is naaaaaasty.
Another possible topic for conversation: Christian heavy metal dude Tim Lambesis is now claiming that steroid use is what caused him to pay an undercover cop money to kill his ex wife, and also give the ostensibly observable hit man (but really cop) the access codes to her house and the dates when he had custody of the kids so they wouldn’t be home.
What is the meaning of this? What is its opposite?
The meaning of pickle is that I’m about to eat spicy food. The opposite of pickle is Eurosabra, in that he has not use other than attempting to justify awful things for no apparent reason.
I think Nepenthe wins this round of the Pickle Definition Sweepstakes.
The meaning of the Tim Lambesis case is that Christian heavy metal should not exist, and when you combine the misogyny in fundamentalism with the misogyny in heavy metal culture you get Very Bad Things.
And the music sucks.
Fun fact: The salt in pickle juice is just for flavor, it’s the vinegar that preserves the cucumber.
The music sucking is why it shouldn’t exist. The lyrics are hilarious, though.
AHHHHHHHHH!!!! I had mercifully forgotten all about Stryper.
Plus the bumblebee color sheme. I’m not quite sure how that was meant to be godly.
@Eurosabra
I didn’t understand the rest of your argle blargle, but IMPOSING? wtf? And you wonder why we think puas advocate rape…
If a man’s no is taken as an impossibility, and a woman says ‘you don’t get to say no’…that’s…that’s still a fucking threat. Especially since male rape victims are considered lucky to have gotten rape by some people, because hey, all dudes want sex, right?
@hellkell
OBJECTION! Cucumbers can be eaten in many tasty ways, examples of which are in a salad, or fried with breading and dipped in marinera sauce. They are excellent with the breading, as it brings out their juiciness. Let us contemplate the juiciness.
@cassandrasays
*envy* I love spicy food.
What do you mean the lyrics are hilarious? These lyrics are sheer poetry, observably:
from “Shining Star” by Stryper
Or maybe the opposite of sheer poetry. Okay, hilarious. You were right.
And what trolls like PellFedora don’t understand is that, while we can easily go to 400 comments nomming on trolls, we can also go to 400 comments talking about pickles, PMS remedies, and Christian heavy metal. It’s kind of what we do here.
Re: pickles, since I’m procrastinating decorating cakes:
I like some pickles, but not others. I’m very picky about my pickles.
And we were going to have pretzels today but the can they came in exploded even though they said they’d be good till june :( And i’m still craving pretzels
Manboobz: Come for the mockery, stay for the pickles.
The pickles of death.
The pickles that symbolize our futile struggle against entropy. Things fall apart and things break and time passes and take it from me, you’ll be lucky to be left with nothing but pickles at the end of the day. An endless supply of pickles to sustain you through your tribulations.
Suddenly I don’t feel so hip. My lack of zest will probably ruin my dating life. I’m going to go eat the cake I stored in the fridge for this occasion.
@Fibinachi
If you have pickled limes or lemons you can get your zest from them.
@cloudiah
Try listening to the original Earth Wind and Fire version. It’s much better.
Oh darn, I can’t blame Stryper for those lyrics. I’m sure EWF’s music is better, and I am definitely more forgiving of bad lyrics when the music is good. :D
“Better trollz plz”
Ahh, you want me back!!!
I knew it :-) :-)
@hellkell I’m very sad that you don’t like cucumbers. *munches on a cucumber*
talacaris: you are no one’s idea of a better troll.
melody: no need to be sad, just don’t like ‘em.
Note that Eurosobbra is touting, “the idea that a man’s, ‘No’ is an impossibility”.
Never mind that, in the real world, men say no all the time (and he has even explained why he thinks they might).
So we have more “benign” gaslighting, except that it’s not benign. He’s using it to set up his right to violate people’s boundaries.
Umm…there’s something missing from this Just So story. The idea that women evolved large breasts as a way to attract men to protect them from tigers doesn’t actually do anything to explain male attraction for large breasts.
Eurosabra: I think there are some people whose bodies are read such that they could not make that statement sound threatening
You think wrong. Even if there were someone who was so small, slight, crooked, what have you, this is a world with weapons; and there is no way to know such a person has no confederates.
MordsithJ: Fun fact: The salt in pickle juice is just for flavor, it’s the vinegar that preserves the cucumber.
Depends on the pickle. A brine pickle is made with salt and water. The acidity is a side effect of the bacterial fermentation which does the picking.
@Fedoradude: For your sickeningly entitled “social experiment” crap about triggers and trigger warnings, go step on all the legos you manage to find. Twice. You’d have to be severely lacking in empathy to view people with PTSD and other mental health issues as your very own experimental guinea pigs. It’s all real to them. They live with that shit every day, whereas you can just yawn, put on your fedora, and go about your daily life after your little experiment is done. You’d have to be a fucking monster to find such things even remotely entertaining.
I’m also getting the Jackie = The Black Fedora vibe, seeing as how he spent a considerable number of posts insisting that a random commenter writing such things proves that feminists are horrible people. But just to make it clear: No, a rapist’s looks don’t matter. At all. I don’t care if a rapist looks like a hunky cross between Johnny Depp and Viggo Mortensen. If he rapes people he is a reprehensible rapist. Based on his actions. You know, the things that he does.
That’s enough on that subject for now, though I am kinda sad he didn’t refer to my Troll to English translations as “parrot translations”. Last time that happened, when I was still new to commenting here, some regulars ran with it and started producing pirate-themed, steamy, sexy troll slash fiction. Me approve.
@Fade: Thank you, thank you! I’ll be here all night*!
*Actually, I won’t. Tomorrow is “return final version of final paper in order to finally receive my long overdue degree” day, so I will probably be double-checking whatever the hell I’ve been writing these past months.
Random, but my tumblr is turning into Margaret Atwood quotes……
I’ve been reading a lot and I keep finding poetic lines.