Dating guru Alex Matlock: Sex with women who fear you and push you away might not be much fun
Protip: This does not mean “yes.”
So “dating” guru Roosh has a post up on his Return of Kings blog by another self-professed dating guru, Alex Matlock, who rates various types of “bad sex” according to the type of female partner who’s involved in them, including such charmingly named types as “The one that tries too much (aka The Disaster)” and “The one that doesn’t move (aka The Starfish or The Doll).”
I expected a good deal of standard-issue manosphere misogyny in Matlock’s list, but I honestly couldn’t make it past his description of what he regards as the second-worst type of female sex partner: “The one that’s scared (aka The Virgin).” Because what he’s describing doesn’t sound so much like “bad sex” as “date rape.”
[TRIGGER WARNING for what follows; emphasis mine.]
.
.
.
.
This girl doesn’t necessarily have to be a virgin because she can still act the part many years after she’s popped that priceless cherry. She will usually look at you with fear in her eyes as if she has no idea about what’s going to happen. She gently pushes you away as if she’s not ready for the event and when it does happen she continues to act like it’s the first time. She usually sits in some extremely awkward positions that make you give up and just go missionary. This girl will eventually bust your nut but she’ll surely leave you with a sense of disappointment and/or guilt.
Uh, Mr. Matlock, I’m hoping for everyone’s sake that this is a hypothetical “humorous” scenario you’ve come up with for the sake of this article and not something you’ve been a part of in the actual real world on a regular basis, because, unless you’ve left out that portion of the hypothetical events in which the woman in question clearly and unequivocally consents to having sex with your hypothetical protagonist here, what you’ve just described as “bad sex” (for the hypothetical dude) is actually a description of, well, rape from the point of view of the rapist.
In which case that twinge of guilt your hypothetical protagonist hypothetically feels is probably just the tiny part of his hypothetical self that’s still human reacting to the fact that he JUST (hypothetically) FUCKING RAPED SOMEONE.
MRAs and PUAs and manospherean assholes generally like to pretend that consent is some weird and mysterious thing, but it’s really not. Here’s a hint: if a women looks at you with fear in her eyes and pushes you away all while sitting in a position that makes sex difficult …. all that means NO.
The fact that Matlock — despite those twinges of guilt — still doesn’t regard this as the worst kind of “bad sex” (for the guy) but merely the second-worst adds a certain level of absurdity to the horror.
Given Roosh’s publication of this piece by Matlock, and the fact that he himself has already confessed to committing what would be considered date rape by American standards by having sex with at woman too inebriated to give consent, perhaps it’s time to stop referring to Roosh as a dating guru and to start referring to him as a date rape guru.
I don’t really have anything else to say.
Here, as brain bleach, are some cats with smaller versions of themselves:
Posted on May 25, 2013, in creepy, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, narcissism, playing the victim, PUA, rape, rape culture, rhymes with roosh, victim blaming and tagged misogyny, pickup artists, PUA, rape, rape culture. Bookmark the permalink. 851 Comments.
@cloudiah
Apparently David wrote the SPLC piece?
“this is just another example of a feminist making a false accusation”
I can’t even
I kinda considered pulling up a vague description of murder and then putting a positive spin on it, but that seemed like too much work.
I’m so glad thought that Fedora has come up with an explanation to rape. Nobody here said intercourse was rape. However, intercourse when your partner is afraid and pushing you away is rape. You might note that what appears to be important in the scene described is that the MAN “busts his nut”. This isn’t a story about a woman and her comfort. This about the dude getting off. And it is described as the second worst type of sex you can have. It isn’t a caring love story. And trying to spin it like it is……..is just BS?
I feel that the reason I will never understand logic is that the argument
“Einstein came up with relativity, Brownian motion and explained the photo-electric effect therefore rape should be tolerated”
Is beyond my comprehension.
Pec,
Actually I am more in agreement with you over Roosh than you might think. He makes his life’s work the pursuit of woman and is not that great at it. The first book I read of his was ‘A dead bat in Paraguay’. On one level it was an adventure story and a farce as well as a look at a man I absolutely do not want to be. He basically humiliated himself all around S America not getting laid until he finally arrived in Brazil where he met what seems a wonderful woman that was everything he dreamed of while setting out. He fell head over heels in love but had to break both his heart and hers so that he could continue the same humiliating lifestyle.
It is a cautionary tale about the dangers of pick up.
Some pick up is good. It tells you how to put women at ease, be funny and generally create a good vibe. PUA’s often talk about the drug of seeing a woman laugh and her eyes sparkle far more than the sex which seems simply to justify all the effort. It makes work a lot more fun.
There is much about self esteem and self confidence too. All good.
Making your life’s work the pursuit of women- bad.
I am opposed to the PU lifestyle because it is all about chasing something just beyond reach. Over time it causes men to like women less. The same goes with sex positive feminists. The more sex the less empathy. I have no idea why.
All I said in favor of Roosh was that he was a great writer and underhandedly persecuted by the SPLC. I understand they have now retracted this.
NB the quotes in the article are not even those of Roosh.
Black Fedora: Without being there it is impossible to know exactly what was going on..* but consider this. If a woman is on the bed, naked and feeling unsure. If she feels ‘dirty’ because good girls do not do that sort of thing but she clearly wants to because she has said she wanted to and has taken her clothes off.
What is the kindest thing to do?
Stop. That’s it. Stop.
All the rest of your blather is morally spineless. It’s justtifications for ignoring her feelings, and assuming your desires are more important than hers.
You seem to be saying that b) is rape. I just do not see it. She is afraid- yes. She is afraid of being judged. She is afraid she may not enjoy it or any number of other things but she is looking to the man to help her feel ok and safe.
What? There is a word for the rhetorical devices you are using, that word is apology. You are making excuses for rape. Best part; you admit they are bullshit (See above, “without being gthere it is impossible to know”). You weren’t there, you don’t know; but you are willing to base an entire argument on the idea that she “really, and trulio WANTED IT”, and the faling on the dude’s part is that he was so shitty in the sack that she didn’t lie back and start to enjoy being raped.
The guy has done nothing wrong. He has waited and been sensitive.
The fuck? He ignored,”the fear her eyes” and that she was, “pushing him away”.
Again, remind me not to talk about the possibility of doing business with you, ‘No, I’m not sure this is a good idea, the interest rate seems excessive, and the terms of delivery a bit vague. My redress is ill-defined. I think I’ll pass”.
The next day I’ll get an invoice.
*1: I praise your use of the MRA Double Period. It proves you are dedicated, and “serious”. 2: This is the heart of it, you weren’t there and are making shit up. The shit you make up… shocker, I know, is all about justifications to make it not rape. You are making excuses for rape.
@melody
QFT. BS and rape apologia.
@the black fedora
Nothing about pickup artists puts me at east, dipshit. .
damn… I’m going to miss the peltdown (he called me Pec, he remembers, he cares), but I’m at a convention, and there is a concert I really don’t want to miss.
All I said in favor of Roosh was that he was a great writer
You said more than that, and I talked about more than that. Cat got your tongue on the rest?
and underhandedly persecuted by the SPLC. I understand they have now retracted this.
You are in error with your understanding.
snort.
“Using the latest cutting edge bio truth science developed by bars and men we will give you the fool proof system to get a girlfriend, the EAST system. We use modified location modalities, which you will learn about in module 3, to put you west of the women of your dreams! Then, using our patented Over The Moon system, we will triangulate your position.
The position of YOUR HEARTS DESIRES!”
Now that Roosh is no longer watched by the SPLC (assuming what you’re saying is true) is he still worthy of support? Or is that still just the KKK?
Also age and boyfriend guessing. Do it.
…You wouldn’t happen to owe me a female GaoGaiGar, would you?
Pec,
Game, even at its worst (pick up lines, pre prepared stories and so on) are no more manipulative than a push up bra. Actually the scripted stuff is out of fashion anyway. These days it is all about finding the true you and bringing it out. The real person- the person we were born to be- is always more charismatic that the person we try to be.
augo
What is a GaoGaiGar?
I SAID THIS CONVERSATION WAS DEAD. YOU ARE ALL ZOMBIES.
Go fuck yourself you disigenous twit. Manipulating people and, oh yeah, fucking raping them is so much worse than wearing a pushup bra. Infact what the fuck is wrong with a push up bra? Convincing guys your boobs are bigger than they are? Cry me a river, not all of women’s fashion choices are made because of guys.
Testing to see if I can post as Zombie Marie now…
http://manboobz.com/2013/03/12/the-door-pattern-creepiest-bit-of-pickup-artist-bullshit-ever/
vs
(Safe for work. Sort of. I mean… ladies, bra)
Even. There really is no difference between the two. One is no better than the other. I honestly believe this.
Pushing my breasts together with a bra is the same as using manipulative language in order to get into a persons pants?
Marie,
How would you know? The only ‘pickup artists’ you identify are clueless men who say clueless things. They could be PUA or just clueless.
The man who makes you feel the center of the world and quite wonderful on the other hand could also be a PUA but your circular logic discounts this.
Melody,
Exactly. It is just as ‘fake’ as a man telling another mans jokes because he is not funny.
The man who makes me feel this is a very talented geologist. But probably a bad boyfriend because ouch my hand.
Because we’ve already established how violent we are here, and because we are now zombies, I propose a steel cage death match!
On one side, a push up bra.
On the other, this: http://manboobz.com/category/rhymes-with-roosh/
Exactly…..
Because bras are evil……
Evil bras. Which have no uses except to tempt men. After all that is why I wear one all alone in my apartment because……I’m tempting the invisible men in my apartment….
Why do MRM, PUAs always assume that everything a woman does is for a mans benefit?
Marie
I never said there was anything wrong with push up bras. They are game for girls.
There is also nothing wrong with a man learning to be funny when he is not.
Ah.
So hey, we’ve come full circle, and now we’re suddenly back to: “But if they were pretty, you’d like them! If they were likable, you wouldn’t be upset! You only call them strange, terrifying men because you don’t like the way they look and they make you feel strange! If you liked what they were doing, you wouldn’t complain!”
Which is well, obvious.
Duh.
And it is very possible that the person who makes someone feel loved, cared for and delighted in, the centre of a world, fills them with ZEST FOR LIFE and BRINGS A PEP INTO THEIR STEP could be a PuA.
Woah, deja vu.
So how did PC attitudes and Einstein relate to the War again? And how is that different than today and Iraq / Afghanistan?
Why is making the goal of your life the pursuit of women a bad thing? I pursue women all the time. With latex weapons and loud screams, because I’m dresed like a troll at the time, but it’s a lovely goal and fills me with joy. I’m being facetious, can you tell?
How did we know that the girl in question liked it, and that the only two options are to call all intercourse rape or have sex with her, “make her cum a few times” and get your Good Lover Badge? I mean, we weren’t there, so… Oh wait.
That’s where.
Assfax. Legions of Assfax.
@the black fedora
I know because they come out and say they are pickup artists. Not that hard.
Spoiler space: There is no man like this in my life. Spoiler space again: I’m also quite happy that way. Goodbye.
@fibinachi
That push up bra video did do a good job of selling them to me, I kinda want one like that now :D Only one’s I’ve seen had the push up bra built in instead of separate, and couldn’t give me a good support with my cup size. Sadly I only understood about half the words.
@the disigenous fedora
‘cept I don’t wear bras to attract guys. Kthnxbye
Also, there is nothing wrong with a man learning to be funny. What is wrong is a man learning how to be as manipulative as fuck, which is a big part of what puas advocate.
At it’s worst PUA outright advocates rape (see Rape Game, and the recommendation that one not use it in the EU, or the US, lest you be arrested for… RAPE).
Strange. Most men in fedoras I’ve met were eager to tout their knowledge of things like GaoGaiGar.
Are sports bras also manipulative?
@pecunium
Gah. Ew. did not know.
Marie
I have no idea why you keep telling me you are intentionally single. I accept this and it is a valid life choice.
@augochlorella
Which kinds of sports bras? The ones that make your boobs flat, or the ones with underwire? (mine has underwire, so I need to know if I am manipulating teh menz).
Just ignore the fact that learning how to be funny or learning some jokes isn’t the problem we have with PUAs.
Ignore the fact that we have mention multiple times that the problem is manipulation. And the fact the PUAs sites are often rape apologists. And every other problem.
I hate this false equivalency stuff too.
@black fedora
I’m not intentionally single. (wtf that means?) I am single, not terribly intentional, just a thing, but even if I wasn’t I”m having a hard time imagining a “man who makes me feel like the center of the universe”. Rather unclear. If you mean boyfriend or whatever just fucking say it, instead of using bs analogies.
Not Making My Clothing Decisions About Attracting Men = Being Intentionally Single
Trolls teach me so much.
Marie
You claim that PUA’s admit they are PUA’s and yet you say they are deceptive.
Which is it?
So apparently the only reason a woman could NOT be using her bra to try to attract a dude is because she is/wants to be single.
Lesbians don’t exist.
@Pecunium are you at Wiscon? If so, I am insanely jealous.
@Fedorka
That’s not PUA, that’s self-help.
But are they true Scotsmen?
Still waiting for you to justify your support of the KKK.
BRAS ARE SUPER POWERFUL AGENTS OF MEN’S DESTRUCTION.
Things I learn on Man Boobz. :D
God, Black Fedora you are as dumb as a rock. The ways they use to try to get in bed are as manipulative as fuck. They say all that shit online, and admit to being puas. There is no way to tell if the person you’re talking to is a pua or just an asshole without asking. I know this is hard, but yes, I can judge people for what they fucking type and what they recommend. follow fibinachi’s link. More of your ‘totally safe pua shit’.
@ Marie
I was thinking chest-flattening bras, but this is a zombie conversation, so anything goes, really.
That’s it, you are officially not smart enough for the level of discussion here.
marie
Not all boyfriends make you feel the center of the universe and some men make you feel like the center of the universe simply by buying you a cup of coffee.
Not the same thing at all.
Ik, r? ;)
…The “worst” effect a push-up bra can have is that it makes the wearer’s breasts look larger than they really are. That’s not manipulation and you know that. Game, on the other hand, is creepy, rapey, and very misogynistic. There’s no fucking comparison whatsoever.
@The Black Fedora:
Your terminology is inconsistent.
A push up bra would be female peacocking
Just like the ink pens you link on your site is cited as an example of male peacocking.
If a push up bra was female game, ie, a set of behaviours intended to maximize the potentiality of attracticting and seducing a partner (Definition of Game mine, you might disagree), you’d be saying that the only thing a woman brings to a relationship is, well, themselves.
Their bodies.
While men learn to be funny, charming, charismatic, the person they were meant to be, born to be, the man in their heart of hearts…
… women put on lipstick, wear a push up bra and use a mini skirt?
That’s what you are saying, right?
Well, either you believe that Game is about learning a set of behaviours, or you believe that women are meatpuppets with nothing to offer but their flesh.
Which is it?
And how does it relate to PC attitudes regarding Einstein and his role on the War?
Fedora really isn’t responding to most of the things we are saying. It is REALLY annoying.
@augochlorella
Well, clearly those are evil things that turn men off and should not exit XD
@the black fedora
Then why did you interpret me saying there wasn’t one for me as ‘intentionally single’? Also…I’m gay here, but other ladies of manboobz: Can a man make you feel like the center of the universe by buying you coffee? Seems unlikely to me, but maybe I’m not entirely sure what ‘center of the universe’ should feel like.
He did it again.
None of my boyfriends have made me feel the center of the universe. We don’t have the technology for that yet.
The irony is fucking killing me.
@melody
I’ve kinda gotten used to it by now :/ I do think he’s annoying though.
Marie
Ah.. womens intuition. You can tell a man is a manipulator by.. just knowing.
I once made someone feel like the centre of the universe by buying them a cup of coffee.
It was a nice place – this little bar in Tunguska. Nice place.
The ensuing gravitonic singularity collapse was pretty hefty though, before it pulled itself entirely into a paralel topography realm.
Push up bras are misandry!
augo
You should find one. I really think it is possible.
vs
I’ve never seen a clearer example.
Reading Comprehension: What It Isn’t.
This explains everything about Fedora.
This one isn’t fun at all. He’s just icky.
Better trollz plz.
@black fedora
No you disingenuous little shit, there is this actual thing where you can actually respond to people by what they actually do. FFS. Not that hard. It’s called ‘fucking interacting with people’ and in the case of PUAs actually reading what they write and realizes what they describe sounds a fuck a lot like manipulation.
You disingenuous fuck. Don’t pretend that you don’t know what she said.
Nobody cares what you think, fedora.
Fedora……
Have you read PUA blogs at all? Because THEY say they are manipulating. They admit to all sorts of things online.
PUAs can be honest about one thing, and deceptive about others. It’s like they were complex beings.
As to the whole , “center of the world thing,” who cares about that? Oh, wait, you are saying that a woman needs a man to make her feel special. What bollocks.
Tell you what; how about you explain why having a man make you feel, “the center of the universe,” is relevant to the conversation.
While you’re at it, how about you explain RAPE GAME, why you think THE KKK, and NAZIS are all cool.
P.S. about the honest in one thing and dishonest in a related thing… See Eurosabra; or go back to my questions about Conservative consistency.
Alex. Hi.
If you read back you will see I completely approve of push up bras. Just as most women approve of a man who can make them feel great. Unfortunately because this is manboobz everything men do is suspect.. including making women feel great.
=|
seriously dude
Actually, I like to feel great without needing a man, kthnxbye.
Melody
I have already said I agree with you. Their is a guy called Ross Jeferies that you should cover if you have not already done so. Very odd.. and thankfully on the way out.
Pfffffft….I think he missed my joke.
This whole blog post is about a man who repeatedly didn’t make women feel great, in fact he most likely raped them, but his only concern about that is that the sex wasn’t so great for him.
Stop derailing, fedora monkey.
Hmm…hasn’t denied pelldom yet.
Ah, we’ve reached the old “pua is justified because women do things to make themselves more physically attractive to men (because ALL women always want attention from men and the only reason women do things is for men and also because men only care about womens’ looks and women don’t care about men’s looks but if they do they’re shallow whores, but men only caring about women’s looks is just fine because evolution, or something)” portion of the debate.
The closest equivalent of pua advice for women is probably books like The Rules. Which, unsurprisingly many men* thought was manipulative. It’s almost like NOBODY likes to feel like someone is manipulating them into a relationship/sex. And even The Rules wasn’t teaching people date rape.
*Feminists also bashed it for being gender essentialist and a bunch of other problematic crap. Which is kind of the opposite of what you’d expect if mra claims were true and feminists were all about helping women trap hapless beta dudes into marriage and all.
Fedora….If you agree then why are you arguing with us?
And you said you agreed on the bras, but I don’t think you and I were on the same page. So, where did you say you agreed? Because even if you did you are still debating it.
So… BLACKHAT, thinks it’s unreasonable to make judgements about men a woman is interacting with.
He also thinks it is totes reasonable to make suppositions about a woman he has never met.
Interestingly both of these rationales have one thing in common… The woman has to accept what the man wants.