Question Time: Backlash, Frontlash, The End of Men?
It’s Question Time again. I’ve been reading through Susan Faludi’s Backlash and her more recent book on men, Stiffed, as well as some of the discussion surrounding Hanna Rosin’s The End of Men and Kay Hymowitz’ Manning Up. Faludi, writing in 1991, obviously saw the 80s as a time of antifeminist backlash.
My question is how you would characterize the years since she wrote her book. A continuation of that backlash? A time of feminist resurgence, from the Riot Grrls up to Rosin’s predicted End of Men? A mixed period of progress and regression?
I’m wondering both what your general assessment of the situation is, and also what specific evidence you have — either hard data or personal experience — that underlies your overall view. This could be anything from data on employment segregation or the prevalence of rape to your sense of how media representations of women and men have or haven’t changed, or even how people you know have changed the ways they talk about gender. What do you think are the significant data points to look at?
The question isn’t just what has changed for women but what has changed for men as well — with my underlying question being: what if anything in the real world has changed that might be making the angry men we talk about here so angry? I think we can agree that most of their own explanations are bullshit, but could there be a grain of truth to any of them? Or something that they don’t see that’s far more compelling?
In the interest of spurring discussion and providing some data to work with, here are a bunch of articles responding to (or at least vaguely related to the issues raised in) Rosin’s End of Men, including a link to her original Atlantic article. In addition, here are some posts by sociologist Philip Cohen challenging many of Rosin’s claims, as well as more general posts of his on gender inequality. (Feel free to completely ignore any or all of these; I just found them useful resources.)
Posted on May 11, 2013, in antifeminism, david has questions, feminism, further reading and tagged antifeminism, end of men, feminism, hanna rosin. Bookmark the permalink. 800 Comments.
Also, Joe–we don’t hate men here. We just hate screaming reactionary douchebag liars like you.
Again with the bullshit. One quote from here, just one, with someone saying that they think it’s just super cool to visit violence on other people, no matter what their identity might be.
I’m so sure you can’t come up with one that I’m tempted to go you one further. I’ll bet you, with the loser banned from ever posting here again, that I can find three direct calls for violence against women from the MRM sites (particular, real, actual women, not hypothetical or statistical abstractions) for any post here containing even a vague hint that violence against anyone (even men!) and particularly sexual violence, is anything but utterly unacceptable and completely reprehensible.
And vague hand gestures “you especially are Exhibit A” don’t count. You need to state the specific quote and unpack how, precisely, this is evidence that the post in question demonstrates that the author is just tickled pink that men and boys, or anyone, for that matter, have suffered violence.
Quote with point by point deconstruction, Joey. Or go home and yell at the voices in your head on your own time.
<<>>
You ignored everything else she said, and just extracted the first part, which isn’t even that much of a personal attack, since you are being dishonest and dense.
I thin Joe’s just upset because it’s Mother’s Day, and we all know that to an MRA, bitches ain’t shit, even mom.
OH! Oh, noes! I totally owe Joey an apology! I say “X” all the time.
Oops! I just said it again!
X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X!
Nice try, First Whiny. Specific quotes, not vague allusions that you pull from your ass.
Hee hee, I find it hilarious that Joe thinks I’m new. ^_^
But, for the sake of amusement, Joe, mind being a little bit more explicit about what exactly I have misread? :P
Saying that men succeed more often in their suicide attempts is not the same as saying that men need to be better at not killing themselves.
No one is saying that women are “all” of DV victims, even the ones who disagree with the idea of gender symmetry in DV incidence.
Saying that women are raped more often than men is a response to the claim that violence against women isn’t an important issue.
Saying that men commit the majority of all violence is a response to the claim that violence isn’t influenced by the patriarchy.
None of it is shaming, minimization, or victim-blaming.
If you’re alluding to the results in the 2011 CDC study of victimization, then this is proof that you don’t really understand the study. The 12-month figures are unreliable, and the lifetime figures show that women are raped more often than men.
Interestingly, I’ve noticed plenty of MRAs joke about prison rape, but I’ve come across countless feminists who are contemptuous of jokes that trivialize rape, including male-on-male prison rape. Just saying.
This isn’t the “feminist response” and you know it.
There are plenty of women who want to get those jobs but aren’t able to for a variety of reasons, one of which is that sexism is still a problem.
Also, that feminist response is generally more along the lines of “This a result of the patriarchy.”
If you’re going to remain a disingenuous asshole in your response and/or continue to attack straw men, please don’t go through the trouble of responding. It will save you time.
While we are waiting for The First Whinger to pull something more from his posterior, I offer you bunnies!
BUNNIES!!! Aw.
@CassandraSays
That bothered me, too, until I realized that in the same thread someone clearly described what lensman was like. So it makes sense for her to know what lensman was like even though she was given a short description only.
@The First Joe
Oops, I hit enter too soon.
@The First Joe
Yay for baseless accusations!
@Joe:
Examples, man! Obviously I don’t believe you, so you’re gonna have to do more than assert more if you want to convince me! Here’s a nice little list of your claims, for reference.
Re-looking at your list, I’m astounded at how often you just miss the point entirely. Seriously, if you went to a room full of feminists and charged them with enforcing gender roles, they’d laugh you out of the building.
So what’s going to happen with feminism in the future?
Well, a whole bunch of childless 40+ women are going to write lots more bitter articles about how conned they feel by the “you can have it all” feminist promise… and a lot of younger women will read those and go …. Hmmmmmm….
There will be greater pushes for stay-at-home-parents to get £££ compo post-divorce. (One woman on my FB, is a lawyer and she is pushing for exactly that, rated at what upper class people pay their Nannies. Lol!)
Which will see even more men avoiding marriage in their droves.
As the global economy continues to collapse under the weight of systemic bankster thefts, there will be less and less and less public funding for professional feminists, and so it will get harder for them to push their power grabbing agenda.
But:
At the same time wider misandry will reach a peak as the still feminist dominated media looks to blame somebodies for why everything has turned to crap, and being as everyone else belongs to a victim group and the actual culprits are too powerful to reach, it’ll be the ordinary bloke that’ll get the shitty end of that stick.
Men will respond to this by avoiding contact and interaction with the people who keep blaming them for everything and trying to tax them until the pips squeak. Men will self-organise the way they always have. There’ll be an increase in gang activity and the off-the-books economy.
Basically, lots MORE men will go “Fuck this shit.” and disengage from approved political / economic structures.
Basically you’re looking at a negative economic and cultural feedback loop.
How will it all wind up?
I don’t know, depends.
We’re going to live in Interesting Times though, that’s for sure.
I found a chorus line for us!
All together now, and a one, and a two…
@ hellkell
Earlier today I heard one of the local radio station playing the mother song from “The Wall”. Happy Mother’s Day! Their morning crew do seem a bit MRA-ish.
It’s Sunday and I’m feeling lazy and it’s hot, therefore there will be no chorus lines. Do you know how much high kicking that can involve? Plus I would need to change into cuter shoes.
Try to make future predictions from your own views, not the views of the mindless droves of men on the “manosphere”, since they tend to contain a list of blind revenge fantasies based on feelings and not fact.
How much do you all want to bet that Joe will be back sometime in the next couple days with the exact same list, as if nobody responded to him? I’d take that bet…
Joe left the revenge-brothels where single mothers will be placed out of his MRUtopia. I am disappoint.
Cassandra: Jesus. That would be like playing John Lennon’s “Mother.”
What Joe doesn’t realize is that very few men hate women like he does. Even if more men opted out, we’d get along just fine. I think that’s what really pisses him off–his ilk isn’t necessary.
“X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X! X!”
gillyrosebee has gone X rated!
Or is this the X files?
:O
@ hellkell
It was in rather poor taste, no?
hellkell – nor do many women hate men like Joe thinks we do.
Cassandra: Super poor taste.
Kitteh’s: True. Actually, Joe pretty much hates everyone.
The negative affects of patriarchy on men is not the fault of feminism, in fact they help end those effects by fighting patriarchy.
Hey, cut him some slack. It’s not like he has all the straw in the world.
Hmm, that’s an interesting theoretical path to take. Men who believe in the theory of male disposability – how many of them are men who’ve been rejected by both the women in their lives and society as a whole because their paranoid misogyny is so extreme that regular somewhat-sexist but not hateful guys back away with a confused frown going “don’t you think that’s a bit much?”.
What I’m saying is, it would be a lot easier to believe in that theory if the people around you actually don’t seem to much care if you go away, especially if you’re too ragey to understand why you’re being rejected.
“Seriously, if you went to a room full of feminists and charged them with enforcing gender roles, they’d laugh you out of the building.”
Suuuure they would.
And they’d be massive hypocrites in doing so.
Feminism only wants to bust gender roles when it means upper middle class feminists getting better corporate / political jobs.
Which is why they’re always wanging on about wanting to be CEOs.
And never about wanting to be dustbin collectors or sewer workers.
There’s no interest in making sure feminists do their equal share of the really despised shit-shovelling jobs.
Funny that.
See, Kirby you think that I have to prove a point to you.
I don’t.
What I’m TELLING you is that masses of people (lots of them men, but not all) many of whom like me were raised by feminists, have seen through the propaganda, by the simple expedient of watching what feminists DO.
(Rather than listening to the mumb-jumbo feminists spout off. All that effort to redefine language and own the frame – comes to naught when people realise that not a word you say is to be trusted).
And what feminsts DO is complain, until they get granted power by the Bastards In Charge, and use that power to get more power. Rinse repeat.
Same as any other political pressure group.
That’s how an increasing number of people see feminism. Hence “backlash”.
I’m curious about this new posting style. Is it meant to be a form of poetry? I mean the line breaks after each sentence thing.
I can’t imagine men of Joe’s, Elam’s, JtO’s, etc., type come off very calm, reasoned, and fun to be around IRL.
Joe: please stop taking your mommy issues out on us.
Aw, Joe thinks all women are feminists.
The only one I’ve actually seen speak is JtO, and his overall persona would send me running even if I couldn’t hear what he was saying. And, lest anyone think I’m being sexist there, GWW is similar but even worse. There’s just something off about both of them – too much rage simmering millimeters under the surface.
Got some citations, Joe?
Cassandra – “Joe left the revenge-brothels where single mothers will be placed out of his MRUtopia. I am disappoint.”
^Exhibit B: Slandering and Making Shit Up. Again.
I have never, ever at any point suggested anything like this.
See Kirby? This is the exact shit I was talking about.
Hellkell – “What Joe doesn’t realize is that very few men hate women like he does. Even if more men opted out, we’d get along just fine. I think that’s what really pisses him off–his ilk isn’t necessary.”
Except I don’t “hate women”. And let’s take a look at societies where men are opting out: Japan. Ohhh, their economy is fuuuuuucked. So you’re a two-for-two FAIL there.
And you have no idea what my “ilk” is.
As for “isn’t necessary.” Dingding!!
There we go! Thank you for revealing (again) your sexist attitude that men are only valuable according to their utility!!
@Joe:
Oh, you don’t have to do anything. I just assumed you were interested in convincing someone about something here. If you aren’t, that’s cool! I’ll just ignore you. :)
You obviously haven’t heard of things like the Women’s Mining Coalition…
Does anyone have a link to Meller’s wanking about the Houses of Entertainment into which single mothers will be place? Because that’s an actual thing that an MRA talked about here at great length, Joe.
The media is still feminist-dominated, continuing to be so since the time that it ever was. I see. No.
I know at least 4 well-known and/or influential feminists at top of my head who have the exact opposite view.
Flavia Dzodan, Emma Goldman, Julia Serano, and bell hooks.
Nice try you dishonest shithead. You could have found theses feminists via a quick Google search.
That part of the rant is much funnier for people who’ve actually worked in media.
It’s almost as if you didn’t read what hellkell said at all and just want an opportunity to blindly accuse her of sexism. Weird.
Hellkell – “Joe: please stop taking your mommy issues out on us.”
Another insult and a reading comprehension fail.
So much with the two-fers today Hellkell.
I said feministS – plural.
I was brought up by the state school system, like everyone else.
Which is feminist to the core.
“Aw, Joe thinks all women are feminists.”
I don’t even.
Just pulling random BS out of your arse now, eh? lolz!
Seriously, dude, what’s with the line breaks of poetic intent?
I’m shocked, SHOCKED, I tell you.
“Everyone else” in this context is a. not in the UK, and b. not necessarily a product of the state school system even if they did grow up there.
(I did a total of about 6 months in the British state school system. Can’t say I remember it being particularly feminist.)
@Joe:
Yeah, remember what I said about people being fed up with you? You’re no stranger around here Joe, and I’m not about to be upset at people for being absolutely fed up with you.
If you demonstrated that you actually cared about the truth of your accusations, and were doing more than regurgitating talking points without addressing any arguments against, maybe I’d count this as something you were talking about. As it is, I’m not going to fault people for getting annoyed at your trolling.
See, Man not need proof. What Man says is Truth, because Man say it. Proof is Misandry.
Ha ha. Why am I picturing Jackie Gleason in the Honeymooners when I read Joe’s rants. “To the moon, Alice!”
@Aaliyah – you missed the part where I said we watch what feminists DO, rather than listening to what they SAY then.
@Kirby – hilarious link there! I clicked expecting to be proved wrong, I thought I’d find the exception to the rule, e.g.: a website either of actual Women miners, or women wanting to be miners….
Instead it’s just another political psuedo-“environmental” pressure group, which I guess is funded by the mining industry, who though that if they gave it a femvironment spin it’d play better to the politicians.Lolz!
I particularly liked the stock photo of a clean well groomed woman doing a very non-strenuous, not at all dangerous above ground task!
My point proven again!
Women with jobs in the mining industry – that…. aren’t mining!! lolz!
@ kirby
Nope, I was referring to an actual component of one proposed MRA-led post-apocalyptic utopia, as explained by David Meller.
Cassandra – “I did a total of about 6 months in the British state school system. Can’t say I remember it being particularly feminist.”
Bwahahahahahaahaaaa!!
6 whole months! XD
@Cassandra – nice to see you admit that you LIED and that weird “single-mother-brothel” BS was some random bloke and nothing to do with me!
Credit for admitting it at least.
See, this is why we all mock the shit out of you, Joe. You totally ignore the fact that your assertion that everyone is a product of the state school system you grew up in is nonsense, and instead take a detour into some baffling little attempt to gloat.
@Joe:
My bad. I actually had the wrong website. O_O I’ll come back to you when I’ve found it.
Nope, I never claimed that it was you that said that. Sorry that your school didn’t teach you better reading comprehension.
The guy who said it is part of your movement, BTW.
@grumpycatisagirl – you should listen to the BBC more.
Plenty feminist.
It’s true that some feminists give mere lip-service to class politics, and that’s definitely a problem. But those feminists I mentioned (and many more, by the way) aren’t like that. If you actually read about them you would understand why.
I know countless other feminists who care about people of all socioeconomic classes.
Oh noes! Millions of men gonna go their own way! How will civilization ever survive without hardworking, productive dudes like Joe making oh-so valuable societal contributions like, uh, spamming blog comments sections with mra talking points?
Yeah, we might be laughing now, but wait till all the mra’s and mgtows and mwhinyassholes finally do go Galt, like they’ve been threatening to do but not actually getting around to doing for all these many years. Who will spam all the blog comments sections with angry rarblegarble then? Imagine the chaos! How will we cope?!
Thank you for warning us all, Joe. I don’t know if civilization can survive the Great Douchecanoe Exodus, you’ve warned us about, but I’ll be sure to keep an eye on it.
There are a long list of things wrong with state schooling, being too “feminist” isn’t one of them.
Again? Do you have any idea how obnoxious that makes you sound?
If we’re going to fix the British school system can we maybe start with things like “make sure everyone leaves with at least X number of GCSEs” and “improve the school lunches so kids have adequate nutrition to get them through afternoon classes”?
Yes, he does. And he likes it.
Seeing how this thread needs disinfecting…
My afternoon was spent sitting on the porch with a very overweight, rather old, beagle. His owner was very pleased to find him, albeit confused how he managed to get out in the first place.
Reuniting beagley with his human, today is a win.
@Kirby – heh. Ok, credit for admitting that!
@Cassandra – Pffft, backpedal & deny all you like, it’s in black & white up-thread.
And I’m not “part of a movement” by the way.
Unlike feminists who are perfectly comfortable with having gendercidal radfems as part of your movement and hand-waving that they are “not typical”, I see way too many issues with way too many people who call themselves MRAs.
So, I don’t count myself as part of the “men’s rights movement”.
@becausescience – google Japan. Grass Eaters. Economy.
Duh.
For someone who hates Manboobzers so much, Joe sure spends an awful lot of time hanging out here. It’s almost like he’s desperate for any attention at all, from anyone who will give it to him.
Joe, why do you post here so much?
@Cassandra – you’ll excuse me if I don’t pay any attention to the opinion of someone who spent exactly SIX MONTHS in the state system as to what is or isn’t wrong with it.
Seriously, wtf.
Yay for beagley homecomings!