Gullible Men’s Rights Redditors fooled by fake Jezebel article arguing that paternity fraud is “one way to break the rule of fathers.”
Some people are easily fooled.
This just in: Men’s Rights Activists are some of the most gullible nincompoops in the history of ever.
The latest evidence of this? The regulars on the Men’s Rights subreddit were fooled by an obviously fake “screenshot” of an article from Jezebel that had been altered to make it look like a Jezebel staff writer thinks that paternity fraud is justifiable as a way to fight patriarchy.
No, seriously, the Reddit MRAs actually thought that Anna North of Jezebel had written that “the ability to lie about your children’s parentage is one way to break the rule of fathers.”
Here’s the “screenshot.” And here’s the original thread, which has been deleted from the Men’s Rights subreddit but which is still up, just not reachable from the subreddit.
The irony in many of the comments is off the charts. “It’s Jezebel, of course they think this way,” writes Riesea. “Wow,” says actorsspace. “If Jezebel had a sense of humor, I would suspect them of trolling.”
Blueoak9 — what happened to the original eight? — is stunned that even the evil feminists would sink so low:
There are, of course, a few teensy clues that North’s supposed quote about “break[ing] the rule of fathers” is a big fat fake (as are some of the others in that “screenshot”).
One is that nobody at Jezebel writes or thinks like that.
And second, there’s the tiny fact THAT THE REAL ARTICLE IS UP ON JEZEBEL AND IT DOESN’T SAY ANY OF THAT SHIT AND ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS GO READ IT FOR FUCK’S SAKE IT’S RIGHT HERE.
In fact, Anna North, the author of the Jezebel article, makes an argument that’s the exact opposite of the one attributed to her in the “screenshot.” Challenging a writer in the London Times who had argued that “the ability to pass a child off on a man was a potent female weapon,” North countered that such a stance was not only morally questionable but also pretty antifeminist:
I’d rather “make male claims to omnipotence absurd” by, say, being economically and politically equal to men — not by making them raise babies that aren’t theirs.
Now, you might wonder why exactly the Men’s Rights crowd on Reddit was reading a screenshot of a Jezebel article and not an actual Jezebel article. Well, that’s because the Men’s Rights subreddit has banned all direct links to Jezebel and other Gawker media sites because the MRAs are still mad about that Violentacrez thing.
Yes, the subreddit that links in its sidebar to a site — A Voice for Men — that not only has offered thousand dollar bounties for the personal information of its feminist enemies but that also carries an open call to firebomb courthouses and police stations in its “activism section” is still pig-biting mad about Gawker’s “doxing” of the man who helped to ruin the lives of countless teenage girls by founding and protecting Reddit’s Jailbait subreddit and dozens of other noxious subreddits.
And so someone was able to use this fact to exploit MRA ignorance and paranoia about feminism and make the inhabitants of the Men’s Rights subreddit look like fools.
Again.
Or some MRA with zero ethics wanted to make feminists look bad and failed utterly. I think this is less likely, but with MRAs, anything is possible.
When you’re done reading the original discussion of the fake article on the Men’s Rights subreddit, you can read the discussion there about how they were trolled. Including the comments from this person who thinks that “even if it’s a troll… so what? It’s still presenting an opinion that many a feminist has held.” Straw feminism is REAL! And this person (with dozens of upvotes) who thinks they should just ban all links to all feminist blogs because, hey, what’s the point in knowing anything at all about something you talk about constantly?
EDIT: Thanks to the AgainstMensRights subreddit, I was able to find the link to the original banned post, and so I’ve put the link (and some comments from the discussion) into the post above.
Posted on May 7, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, doxing, dozens of upvotes, drama, evil women, gullibility, misogyny, MRA, reddit, straw feminists, TROOOLLLL!! and tagged antifeminism, men's rights, MRA, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 856 Comments.
I have every confidence that someone will be here to remind you to check your depth charges from time to time, pecunium.
THANK GOD
Kittehserf: then you have your opinion, and I have mine. I object to the assertion that was given that “we” (feminists) don’t think it should be mandatory. Some women are capable of such serious transgressions (obviously, as are some men) and an innocent party’s medical history being on the line, I see no reason a test shouldn’t be done.
Any mandatory medical test is freaking creepy. Why the hell should it be done? You kind of need a reason to spend all of this money/ whatever resources do the tests, and mra paranoia doesn’t cut it.
It’s the idea that it should be mandatory that is disgusting. You’re talking as if the situation was normal – very much an MRA attitude – and that women (or others with uteri) are by default not to be trusted. You are essentially telling everyone here who has or could or would want to give birth that we’re suddenly on the “might have committed adultery*” list. What next – false rape accusations are a huge problem too?
Fuck that, and fuck anyone who dares tell me or imply I might have cheated on the only person I would ever have sex with. Fuck them for suggesting my husband and millions of others are some sort of insecure, paranoid, possessive losers. Fuck them for assuming every relationship is so fragile and the uterus-haver in it a lying liar trying to pass of some OTHER MAN’S CHILD (oh noes!) on some poor unsuspecting schlub.
*I’m using adultery for the strength of the word, not in the literal sense of the partners having gone through the legal marriage business.
I see your point.
What Fade said. I reeeeeeeeeeally don’t like mandatory anything. The fact that some women respond to being asked with “how COULD you?!” is a similar issue to men asking because they assume women are liars. Ie: both societal issues that would be best solved by NOT propagating both ideas with a bizarre law.
I also find it incredibly weird because while I can appreciate lots of people want genetic children, if I was in a relationship with someone who had a child they wanted to raise with me and I was prepared to be a parent I would LOVE that child because they are my child. If it turns out they cheated, well that sucks – if doesn’t change my relationship with the child! I don’t see children as just financial burdens.
And people who find out belatedly that they’re not the biological parents and sue for compensation gross me out because do you not love your child? They are still your fucking child, you sociopath. Your problem is with your ex/partner, and trying to get refunded for your purchase of a child is disgusting.
Unless I’m severely misinformed, the paternity test will only determine whether or not someone IS the father, it doesn’t determine WHO the father is. So, at best, a child will know that it won’t inherit the propensity for heart disease from someone who thought they were the father, it doesn’t really do much in telling the child of any medical history belonging to it’s actual father.
A paternity test isn’t going to tell you squat about medical history. It won’t tell you where to look if the father isn’t the father.
IIRC, the tests are not all that cheap to administer. We went over this ad nauseum in a Br_n thread, he was arguing for this very same thing.
You’re in very “good” MRA company with this one.
Ninja’d by Shadow!
hellkell, I really hope you’re not insinuating I’m an MRA. I was thinking at this from a different angle, and having said my piece I’m done. Insults not necessary.
No, she’s saying that you agree with something MRAs are passionate about, and it’s probably worth thinking (ie: worrying) about that.
No one’s saying paternity tests are evil – just that mandatory testing is fucked up, and comes from a viewpoint that women lie about it a lot. I’m sure a lot of straight dudes would be super uncomfortable with HAVING to do this shit too.
Ms Getta Lode, if you trot out MRA talking points, you will get the side-eye from people (plural).
::waves::
Hi, hrovitnir, good to see you!
“I’m sure a lot of straight dudes would be super uncomfortable with HAVING to do this shit too.”
Exactly. I would think plenty of men would be horrified.
This is the core of it: It’s medically unnecessary, it costs money, and, in most cases, neither party wants it. It doesn’t make sense on any level.
Or should anyone be able to mandate that other people get medically unnecessary procedures because it falls in line with their ideology?
Ms Geta Lode: I’m not saying you’re an MRA, but this is one of their hobbyhorses, so I’m gonna give major side-eye to it.
False paternity is one of those things that’s not really an issue, because it doesn’t happen all that often.
Okay. I also don’t think babies should be circumsized. Whew. That’s all the MR-agreeing baggage I’ve got. Here’s my kitty. I love you guys.
Hi Kitteh! I have been lurking but keep being too slow off the mark to feel like I have anything to contribute. :)
+1 what everyone else said. I am generally opposed to forcing anyone to do anything without a really good reason anyway. Which sounds like a common opinion but talk to almost anyone for long enough and they’ll expound on SOMETHING they want to force [some other group they disapprove of] to do. :P
Re: circumcision (if anyone wants to get in this) is there really a reason for it? I mean, I don’t think MRAs are the only ones who think it’s a skeevy idea…
“Hi Kitteh! I have been lurking but keep being too slow off the mark to feel like I have anything to contribute.”
Heheh I don’t let that stop me too often! :P
I can think of an “I’d force X to” example – I’d force millionaires and billionaires to pay tax! (If only.)
I’m not seeing how paternity tests help with medical history. If they confirm that the person who you assumed was probably the father was, well, you already have access to his medical history. If they confirm that he’s not the father, now you don’t know who the father is, and you still don’t know the appropriate medical history.
It’s a red herring so obvious that I’m surprised anyone falls for it.
BAH uni internet is being so slow. :( Try again:
Haha, well I don’t like male circumcision either but that’s kind of the opposite – opposing overriding bodily autonomy based on pseudoscience rather than supporting overriding individual choices based on pseudologic. :P
There’s a miscellany of real or purported small medical benefits, but not really, no.
But if we’re working from the assumption that one group’s ideological views are sufficient reason alone to mandate a procedure, then they’d have to be required.
lol Kitteh. This place is such a black hole for time. :P
NB: People tend to be sensitive here Ms Getta Lode because we/they have to deal with MRAs constantly, probably most often in their fake caring/neutral mode. So claims like “I’m not an MRA but-” tend to get short shrift; if you don’t turn into a defensive goit it’s all good. :D
P.P.S. Cats are always appreciated. :D
Male circumcision is so not the black and white debate MRAs paint it as though. Lots of circumcised men vocally support it – and as a person that does not have a penis I don’t feel I get to negate their feelings.
I strongly feel that surgically altering the body of an infant for any reason but that they are going to be in pain/not going to be able to function is WRONG, but considering most circumcisions go smoothly and result in a pretty neutral effect for the boy it’s a bit fuzzier than cutting out a child’s clitoris and/or sewing her labia mostly-closed.
The female circumcision involving trimming the clitoral hood only is equivalent to male circumcision but MRAs like to act like all FGM = male circumcision and it makes it impossible to have a real conversation, as fucking usual. Idiots.
hrovitnir, just what I was going to say, ‘cept you said it better! MRAs would never grasp that the real comparison with full FGM would be cutting the penis off – more than that, given the massive health problems and pain that procedure causes.
Given the MRA mindset, I’m slightly surprised at least one of them hasn’t said FGM is a good idea.
Yeah, part of the reason I’m reluctant to really get behind some of the anti-circumcision arguments is that they often veer into body shaming of men who are circumcised. There has to be a way of making the argument that circumcision should in general stop happening without talking about how inferior circumcised penises are.
(On behalf of the men I’ve known and loved who have been circumcised that tends to make me punchy.)
When my oldest was born the doctor told me that he had an extra little bit of pinna (ear) that could be removed when he was older and able to tolerate the anesthetic. Then they went ahead and circumcised him without so much as a by your leave. It was not until later that I wondered how in the world they though it was ok to chop one bit without anesthesia and not another.
It was a long time ago and I was very young, but still, I can’t help wondering WTF?
Googling and speed reading the original here, it seems that North (in Jezebel) is arguing against McDonagh (in the Times, the Times online is a subscriber service, so I’ve not read that) … North presents her POV that she doesn’t think paternity testing is a big deal, per se.
http://jezebel.com/5349395/are-paternity-tests-anti+feminist
It seems it’s McDonagh / the Times who is advocating for deception, not North ? Jezebel.
It’s not terribly surprising that some people were taken in by the fake Jezebel tho’, Jezebel has previous for misandry:
http://jezebel.com/294383/have-you-ever-beat-up-a-boyfriend-cause-uh-we-have
@hellkell
*sneak five*
Re: circumcision
I tend to follow the lead of those who are circumcised because I don’t come from a culture that practices it, so I’m not really in the right place to judge it’s value. OTOH, (TMI to follow), I have a really sensitive head, but not to a point where it’s medically abnormal. My life would be hell if I had been circumcised, and I can’t help but think that there’ll be circumcised guys who deal with that, and I dislike the fact that circumcision is done so early that those kinds of problems aren’t taken into account for the individual. There’s the bodily autonomy issue too, but most circumcised people I know aren’t bothered by it, so I feel weird describing it as a violation when they don’t.
Joe: Misandry is not a thing. And no one here cares what you think.
But it is cute that Joe’s trying to hand-wave away the utter gullibility of the MRM. Face it dude, they’re lolcows.
Shadow, in general circumcision makes the glans (head) far less sensitive because the outer layer of skin cells dies, leaving it with skin that matches the rest of the external body skin. That said, I imagine the chafing between cutting and keratinization ( I think that’s the word) probably sucks, but I have no memory of that.
I agree that anti-circ arguments often lead to body-shaming, but I’m not sure it’s avoidable because one of the best anti-circ arguments is the inferiority of cut penises compared to uncut.
That said, whilr I’d rather not be circumsiced, I’m not that upset that I was. Sex with a cut penis is fine and my biggest sex-related bio problem (ejaculatory anhedonia) is almost certainly not related.
THANK YOU Ms. Getta Lode. I appreciate your viewpoint so much that I can’t believe that people here are so quick to attack you and label you as an MRA.
I’m not an MRA, but a little bit about my opinion on paternity tests – in an ideal world, paternity tests are not necessary. The reason why they exist IS because there are cases where a man unknowingly becomes the father of a child that isn’t his. Why? Because there are wives/GF’s that can trick a guy into becoming a father against his will. You may consider what I said as misogynistic, but would it be misanthropic if I were to say that people steal? Would it be misandrist when I say that men cheat on their wives? Men can be bad, but so can women.
Here’s where my opinion differs from the MRA’s – paternity fraud is partly caused by women (where she deceives the BF/husband), but is mostly caused by men. Why? Because for every men that is forced to be a father of a child that isn’t his, there is also another man (the biological father) who ran away from his biological child. So assuming that the wife did cheat on him and got pregnant, why didn’t the extramarital lover/fuck buddy took responsibility with the child? If the family/child support laws were stricter, and men who run away from their biological child receives a penalty, then would paternity fraud be much of a problem? So, in a way, paternity testing is not a “men’s rights” issue at all, because if the fraud victim has been tested negative for the paternity test, then he is freed from taking responsibility for a child that isn’t his, but the biological father, having proved that he’s the real father, has no way out of this, and is forced to be the father of the child. I know the latter part is something that the MRA’s does not want to hear.
My opinion is this – paternity tests should not be mandatory, but it should be easily accessible, and should not be expensive. What if the man suspects that the child is not his, especially when considering that paternity fraud exists? I’m using the same line of reasoning as the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” model here (which, by the way, I fully agree with). A woman has the right to suspect that the man she first dates with may be a potential rapist, just as much as a man has the right to suspect that his GF’s newborn child may not be his. I’m not going to get into a gender olympics here to say which one is worse, but if a woman has the right to be paranoid, so should men. Of course, this is not to say that paternity fraud is a woman’s issue (it isn’t).
Also, hrovitnir – your “sociopath” comment disgusted me. What the hell is wrong with you? So people who are angry at the fact that they have been lied to is automatically a sociopath? I don’t know if you are a male or not, but if you raise a child for 10 years, and you hear the bad news that your lover has been cheating behind your back and the child is actually not yours, what would you do? What would an average person do? Be honest please.
I’ll tell you what I’ll do – I will still love the child, but I will sue the biological father the amount of money that I spent so far with the child, including those that I will spend in the future. And I will file for a divorce, keep the child to myself, and force both of them to pay support to the child. But that’s just me. If another man has been the victim of fraud and found out the real truth, then he has the right to leave, because paternity fraud is essentially forcing someone’s life to be in burden for several years.
Speaking of which, feminism is about gender equality, correct? So if it’s possible to deceive a father into paying a child that isn’t his but impossible to deceive a mother into paying a child that isn’t hers, due to how the childbirth process works, doesn’t this double standard bother you? So in a way, paternity test (although not a men’s right issue) helps to compensate for the inequality, almost like how women’s only hours helps to compensate for the gender differences in gym accessibility.
That is… icky (trying to rate someone’s penis based on whether it’s been circumcized)
I mean, shouldn’t “unnecesary body modification violates bodily autonomy” be enough?
/though I will admit I’m pretty uneducated in this issue, and kind of don’t have a stake because i am penis-less
“I agree that anti-circ arguments often lead to body-shaming, but I’m not sure it’s avoidable because one of the best anti-circ arguments is the inferiority of cut penises compared to uncut”
I’d say that the simple argument that:
Absolutely no-one male or female should have body modification / mutilation practised on them – until they are competent as consenting adults, who may or may not choose it.
^That should be enough to have circumcision of any kind banned, on any and all babies – regardless of sex.
The only exception being emergency medical procedures – e.g. serious infection not responding to antibiotics.
No need to body shame anyone.
Euh ma gherd. Me and Fade agree on something. 0.0
Hey, I’m just as weirded out by this as you are.
Heavens, Joe said something sensible!
@hellkell – dictionary.com
“mis·an·dry
[mis-an-dree] Show IPA
noun
hatred of males.
Compare misogyny.
Origin:
1945–50; mis-2 + -andry (as in polyandry), on the model of misogyny
Related forms
mis·an·drist, noun”
Also, scroll back up and read that Jezebel article on boyfriend beating, and all the gleeful comments celebrating the violence they did, it’s a perfect example of misandry, right there in black and white.
Jezebel edited that article to make it more palatable, the original was even worse. Even so, I’m surprised they left it up. I’m glad they did tho’ – it makes all the denial of domestic violence against men that much weaker.
And it looks like we’re done with our tiny agreeing on things moment.
ZOMG I CAN QUOTE THE DICTIONARY, TOO!!!!
This totally constitutes a point!eleventy!
And if you think Redditors are gullible lolcows???
Tumblr feminism.
Oh the stupid. It burns.
Curse you, blockquote monster. Trying again.
Exactly. Especially if the person is quite insistent that they’re happy as is, telling them that they ought to feel violated and like their cock is inferior doesn’t sit right with me. Why give someone a complex that they didn’t already have? I’m not seeing how this adds to the sum of human happiness.
Here’s the thing. Lots of guys have worries about their cocks already, right? This is a fairly common problem? OK, given that, how is saying “btw your cock is inferior, just so you know, and if my saying that hurts your feelings, oh well, it’s for the good of the cause” going to improve the situation?
Just because it’s a difficult argument to make doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to figure out a way to make it in a way that minimizes collateral damage, imo.
Shadow: re your TMI: One of the things about circumcision is that sensitivity changes; the lack of prepuce causes a bit of toughening of the glans.
You would probably have been fine.
Funny story. (it hinges on my being circumcised). As a child I didn’t have a clear idea of what circumcision was. I had a child’s understanding, had never seen an uncircumcised penis, etc, so I didn’t know what a foreskin was.
I therefore assumed I was uncircumcised (I wasn’t jewish, and it seemed obvious to me that no one had cut the end of my dick off).
In middle school I had gym. There were people who weren’t circumcised; they were a minority. So there was this wrinkled bit of skin, and no visible glans.
So I assumed they were circumcised, and that was the scar tissue.
Re: circumcision
A quick side note from research my fiance shared with me after doing a research project on circumcision for a human sexuality class. He was circumcised as a child and was curious about whether being uncircumcised was better. He wasn’t biased either way from the outset but did conclude that he was happy with being circumcised and might’ve gotten it done if he hadn’t been…you can call me a liar for claiming there are pro-circ men, I’m just stating his opinion before word-dumping his research:
Circumcision is medically useful in a lot of situations (many extremely anti-circ MRAs will argue against it being a viable option in cases like severe phimosis, which is kind of cruel in a way) and has very slight health benefits. To argue that it takes away any sensitivity at all is not at all supported by reliable research, both studies that use sensors to measure the amount of nerve activity in the penis and studies that survey simply on sexual satisfaction. The only research that says it does was an informal survey performed by a doctor with questions that sounded pretty leading to me. It does lead to a slight callousing effect, of course, but there’s absolutely no evidence that said callousing affects *overall* sensitivity. It just feels different.
And to say that infant circumcision is anywhere near comparable to rape or FGM in terms of trauma – like many extreme anti-circ MRAs do regularly – is absolutely ludicrous. Research on FGM shows that it very obviously damages the vagina and reduces sensitivity by an insane amount, and I don’t even need to explain why rape is different. It can be traumatic in some ways to realize that your body was changed without your permission, but FGM and rape are different period.
However:
That all being said…I completely agree that it should be 100% an adult male’s choice unless some kind of unimaginable medical emergency requires the immediate removal of the foreskin (not that such a case necessarily exists). I’d think most feminists would agree with this and I’m not sure why MRAs think we wouldn’t. Infant circumcision is a violation of body choice and feminists are obviously very for preserving that right.
I just disagree that it’s never ever medically useful, like certain pockets of MRAs will argue, and think it should at least remain available as a choice for men who want to have it done, unlike those who think it should be banned period. Science is basically neutral on voluntary circumcision, much like it is on body piercings performed by trained professionals.
“And if you think Redditors are gullible lolcows???
Tumblr feminism.
Oh the stupid. It burns.”
Wow! That was brilliant! Maybe Joey is really Stephen Hawking with a really unimaginative handle!
On the origins of the word “misandry”. I think opheliamonarch linked to this page a few threads ago, and it’s worth seeing again (emphases mine).
Source: http://www.adonismirror.com/10152006_leader_misandry_and_misanthropy.htm
I’ll start with the comment directed at me and work from there. :D
I take back the “sociopath” part only because using mental illness as an insult is a bad thing. I do not take back my statement that if someone finds out their child is not biologically theirs and their reaction is to want a refund on all the money they spend on their child, they are severely lacking in empathy.
Their reality is they have a child, and we’re going to assume they love their child, who loves them back. They cannot get that time back. They cannot get that money back. By loudly demanding compensation all they’re really doing is communicating to their child that if they’d known they weren’t their biological father, they wouldn’t have been there for them. Ie: they are hurting them out of pride.
I am in no way denying how much that would hurt and fuck with your head, but Christ, get some priorities. Be upset in your own time, don’t make everyone around you feel worse to feel revenged.
What would I do? I would cut off communication to the greatest extent possible considering we have a child with the mother. I would have an age-appropriate conversation with my child about how I love them, and they’re welcome to find their biological father if they like but it doesn’t change anything between us.
What would most people do? Scream and yell and trample on the feelings of their children because that’s what most people do anyway. This is why I would like parenting to be less of a default life plan.
My 14yo brother currently lives with me and my partner 1/2 the week, and I hope full time when he’s old enough because his life has been so fucking hard for him with his parents (my mother, his father) hurting him in their need to hurt one another. I would like to get my 12yo sister out too but her issues are different and I may not be able to. I offered to let my step-sister live with me when she was 13 because she was being torn on all sides by selfish adults hurting each other – her father (my mother’s partner) and her mother (my father’s partner).
I have fucking OPINIONS on this subject because I have zero fucking time for this bullshit. I was the child in the middle and damned if I’m not going to do everything in my power to help those kids (I’m 28). Even when it hurts me. Because I care more about those kids than my own pride, as any parent damn well should. So don’t even fucking TRY and get my credentials.
And there’s the money quote. The child has no voice here, it’s all about you. Well guess what? FUCK OFF.
Attack? Try “disagree and be suspicious she’s in good faith because MRAs routinely come here and pretend to be reasonable for about 5 seconds.”
Let’s just bold this for clarity: no one is saying paternity tests shouldn’t exist, or that requesting one is bad. What we are saying is that making it mandatory is (a) fucked up just on principal, because autonomy is good, and (b) makes no sense unless you think that it happens a statistically significant amount of the time, which is doesn’t.
See this to me shows your overly simplistic and gender role-entrenched view of the entire thing. Life is complicated! Some women may have sex with lots of people behind their partner’s back and lie about it to their partner. Pretty revolting behaviour but if the guy is happy to be a parent, he still gains a relationship with his daughter or son and the child gains a father. Not all’s well that ends well, but not something that can be fixed with money.
Some women might fall in love with someone else but not be willing or able to leave their partners and go back to them pregnant without telling them. Not OK but life is fucking complicated.
Some women might get drunk at a party and be raped without knowing it, and raise the child thinking it’s her partners. Because LIFE IS FUCKING COMPLICATED.
I don’t blame “men” or “women” because neither is a monolith. Bad things happen, we deal with them as they come. What I would *like* is a picture of relationships that are between two people that like each other and communicate, and are honest, and work through their problems. But that’s a pipe dream, isn’t it?
*Posting this when angry, hopefully won’t regret it.
P.S. Note that since Ms Getta Lode has not devolved into spouting misogynist drivel, she is currently getting the benefit of the doubt. You, well, I don’t care if you’re an MRA, you’re a self-absorbed twat and not worth the time I just spent on you.
Don’t you just love the way the assumption is that the woman and the other man cheated and that they conspired to have the first bloke tricked into raising the child? Imagine the biological father in Joe’s scenario, being sued for the upkeep of a child he may not have known existed. But then Joe’s talking as if this is all some sort of property battle and the money he’s spent is the most important thing ever and he bought that kid and he was cheated and he still gets to keep it even though he has no biological connection with it and that’s the most important thing in the world or else why is he chasing this money in the first place …
It must really suck to be as paranoid and convinced that other people are out to hurt you as Joe is. I’m not sure how h got that way, but it sure does seem to be fucking up his life now. I think it’s why he can never stay on topic even when you can see that he knows that there is a more important topic that he really ought to be focusing on. He always gets distracted and dissolves into ragefeelingsdump.
Sorry, breadmold’s comment, not Joe’s. It sounded like the sort of thing Joe would say.
Breadmold, sideeyeing someone because they’re bringing up MRA talking points is not saying “You’re an MRA.” It says, as was mentioned already, that it’s worth thinking about the statement when it is one of their hobbyhorses.
“A woman has the right to suspect that the man she first dates with may be a potential rapist, just as much as a man has the right to suspect that his GF’s newborn child may not be his. I’m not going to get into a gender olympics here to say which one is worse, but if a woman has the right to be paranoid, so should men. Of course, this is not to say that paternity fraud is a woman’s issue (it isn’t).”
That’s a fucking offensive comparison. “I might be in danger of rape or murder” compares with “this child may not be mine”? You even have to ask which is worse? In what universe?
Oh dear, I fear that his time here may be short and painful.
I have just never understood the obsession with a child being biologically “yours.” What’s the big deal? I have shit genes; why would I want to specifically ensure that a child got them too?
Oh for god’s sake, I didn’t even see that.
*face-palm* Taking basic safety precautions (and remember, it’s your own fault if you don’t psychic yourself out of being raped!) = assuming women are liars. O_o
Note: once you’re actually in a relationship with someone, you are actually assuming they are not a rapist. Generally. Having a child should be a mutual thing, whether or not it’s planned. And if you actually suspect it’s not yours, do ask, sure. But you’re probably not in a good place to raise a child together.
And let’s not forget: the equivalent of a woman being cautious of the possibility of being raped on a date with a man is… a man being cautious of the possibility of being raped on a date with a woman! Or a woman with a woman! Or a man with a man! Because no gender has the corner on awfulness! (Though obviously it’s statistically far more dangerous being a woman dating a man… but I’m sure you can follow here.)
Haha, yeah, that’s not something I’m generally going to agree with people on. I can understand that it’s a biological urge, and can imagine the intensity of birthing your very own brand new baby.
But I actually see raising children similarly to puppies, as much as this offends many people. I don’t care if they’re related, look like me, or are babies. And there are so many that need good homes, why would I make more? :P Basically I’ve never wanted my own children, but I wouldn’t mind fostering and maybe adopting one day.
It is funny how my partner has been asked about having children (he’s a regional manager and has management meetings monthly so he gets a lot more of that yaymarriagebabieswhywouldn’tyou?!?! than I do) and said that we have shitty genetics so it seems like a terrible idea. This got him raaaaather confused looks. lol
I blame Fox News for this idea that for every idea there must be an opposite and presumed to be equal idea. If there isn’t one then you make one up, lest the disruption in your sense of how the universe works give you a headache.
@Kittehserf – nice try, but dictionary.com, which is neither a stronghold of feminist, nor MRA opinion, dates misandry to the 1940s, predating Warren Farrell and such by a long old time.
Misandry is real, it happens and the word is so widely accepted it’s in the dictionary. Case closed, you fail.
I see the usual efforts to shame cuckolded men into meekly putting up with the lies and deceit that were foisted on them are on prominent display in this thread.
It’s exactly that BS which makes the argument for mandatory DNA testing, for me.
Mandatory DNA testing both slams the door on any possible deceit AND it cuts off all opportunity for this kind of shaming horseshit. No man need ever listen to the bullshit “you don’t trust me, I would never, blahblah, you’re so evil and heartless etc. etc.” because: it’s the fuckin’ law.
Fatherhood MUST be proven by DNA OR accepted through formal, voluntary adoption post-tesing, in full knowledge of not being the bio-father. No arguments, no chance for man-shaming. Job done.
I’m circ’d and wished I wasn’t – bc women generally find uncut men to be more easy table. How is that fact “body shaming?” That’s an objective fact – more girth = more happiness. Would it be “body shaming” to acknowledge that women who have suffered FGM are permanently injured due to the bushit inflicted upon them by their culture? I would find any ethical system that permitted people to be brutalized that way very ugly.
Related to the uncut men issud, would pointing out that a smaller man is less satisfying generally be body shaming? I don’t think so – it is an unfortunate but true observation that some men are ill equipped to give most women pleasure through PIV sex. Pretendjng otherwise does men who need to keep a mate happy a disservice. Less well-endowed men can compensate plenty elsewhere as Good Vibrations or Dan Svage can expound upon in detail.
But in light of that fact, it seems like the choice of circumcision should be the man’s to make. My mom undoubtedly thought she was following good medical standard and hygeine, but now we have a fuller understanding of the issue.
Ah ha ha. The dictionary said so! Sure bro.
That said, I am totally down with misandry as a concept. It’s just that the idea of misandry as a social force is… patently ridiculous.
I have no idea what “more easy table” means.
Joe, get some help for that paranoia and anger before it eats you alive.
(Can anyone provide an MRA to English translation for “more easy table” and what it would mean in relation to penises? I’m not being snarky, I’m genuinely lost.)
[I]P.S. Note that since Ms Getta Lode has not devolved into spouting misogynist drivel, she is currently getting the benefit of the doubt. You, well, I don’t care if you’re an MRA, you’re a self-absorbed twat and not worth the time I just spent on you.[/I]
Aww geez, you know what, I’m sorry if you consider it “misogyny” for me to say that men should have the same right as women to be suspicious of what their partner is doing. Tell me, what do you think of the Schrodinger’s Rapist model? http://www.atheistrev.com/2012/10/schrodingers-rapist.html If you agree with it that women should be suspicious that the partner they see may be a potential rapist (which I would agree to), then you would also agree that men should be suspicious that his wife/GF’s firstborn may not be his biological child.
And calling me a “self-absorbed twat” will only reflect poorly on YOUR part because all you’re doing is spewing ad hominim attacks like a kindergartner without explaining why I’m self-absorbed, which you kind of half-heartedly did:
[I]And there’s the money quote. The child has no voice here, it’s all about you. Well guess what? FUCK OFF.[/I]
Oh wow, you can really spew insults like a child, and you’re doing it so proudly. Would you like a squeaky toy?
If I’m “selfish” for asking to keep the child to myself, how are you any less selfish? If your wife/GF lied to you and your child find out, would he be happy being forced to live with a mother that lied to her child? How about you COMMUNICATE to the child on how his mother deceived both of you, and ask him/her whether or not s/he’s comfortable to live with the lie and would like to stay living with his/her mother? This is ASSUMING that the mother lied (which you even admitted to) and NOT due to other issues like i.e. being raped.
Also:
[I]What would most people do? Scream and yell and trample on the feelings of their children because that’s what most people do anyway. This is why I would like parenting to be less of a default life plan.[/I]
Where did I say that paternity fraud victims can just “scream and yell and trample”? All I’m saying is that they have the right to be mad, and the right to find a way to get the biological father to compensate for the losses.
[I]Their reality is they have a child, and we’re going to assume they love their child, who loves them back. They cannot get that time back. They cannot get that money back. By loudly demanding compensation all they’re really doing is communicating to their child that if they’d known they weren’t their biological father, they wouldn’t have been there for them. Ie: they are hurting them out of pride.[/I]
Wow, and you call them sociopaths. I NEVER said that the father should place the non-biological child secondary to his own interests. All I’m saying is that he has the right to feel that his life has been cheated by the wife and the biological father, and deserve the right to compensate the loss.
If you asked your mother whether she’s abort you before birth, and she replied with “yes”, would you get back at your mother by saying that she’s hurting you out of pride?
(albeit abortion and paternity fraud are two completely different things, but that’s beside the point. Similar principles though)
And the last one takes the cake:
[I]See this to me shows your overly simplistic and gender role-entrenched view of the entire thing. Life is complicated! Some women may have sex with lots of people behind their partner’s back and lie about it to their partner. Pretty revolting behaviour but if the guy is happy to be a parent, he still gains a relationship with his daughter or son and the child gains a father. Not all’s well that ends well, but not something that can be fixed with money.
Some women might fall in love with someone else but not be willing or able to leave their partners and go back to them pregnant without telling them. Not OK but life is fucking complicated.
Some women might get drunk at a party and be raped without knowing it, and raise the child thinking it’s her partners. Because LIFE IS FUCKING COMPLICATED.[/I]
Your first two paragraphs can be summed up with this: What she did was wrong, but pssshh so what if he was being lied to! All men LOVE to be fathers! Never mind the fact that being forced to be a father of a child that isn’t his is morally wrong! He should just suck it up and clean up the mess his wife/GF made.
And I actually agree with your last sentence. Rape is a horrible crime, because it’s bad for women, but it can also be bad for men for this one reason alone.
Oh yeah and you totally missed my point with the paragraph. I was making a point on how it’s entirely incorrect to place the sole blame on the woman if a paternity fraud exists. The biological father also had a role to play in choosing to have sex, and he was the one who chose to run away from his own biological child. So if anything, I’m COUNTERING misogyny. Paternity testing is not a men’s right issue at all. If we live in a society where all men took responsibility with the children that they helped to create, we wouldn’t need paternity testing at all.
Look, hrovitnir, you’re taking this way too personally. I NEVER made a personal attack against you, and you decide to ramble on and on about your life story. Cool story bro (or sis; I don’t know what your gender is). I got mad at the stuff you wrote because you were labelling people who got angry at lies that his wife/GF made as “psychopaths”, as if there’s no way in hell people could get angry and demand justice.
[I]Don’t you just love the way the assumption is that the woman and the other man cheated and that they conspired to have the first bloke tricked into raising the child? Imagine the biological father in Joe’s scenario, being sued for the upkeep of a child he may not have known existed. But then Joe’s talking as if this is all some sort of property battle and the money he’s spent is the most important thing ever and he bought that kid and he was cheated and he still gets to keep it even though he has no biological connection with it and that’s the most important thing in the world or else why is he chasing this money in the first place …[/I]
The funny thing is, even if that is true, it’s mostly the other man (the biological father) that is to blame. It takes two to have a child, and the biological father was the one who chose to run away from his own child to become a deadbeat.
“And if you actually suspect it’s not yours, do ask, sure.”
Bwahahahahahhaahaaaaaa!!! OMG the naivety.
That you are able to even come out with this, I don’t even know where to begin in explaining to you how deeply this fails.
And by the way the incidence of cuckolding as found by genetic testing is about 30%.
3 in 10.
If you had a 30% chance of most of your time, effort and love being poured into a life that was a LIE, to the advantage of the liar that inflicted it on you – you’d be clamouring for mandatory DNA testing too.
And don’t give me all that “be a better judge of character” horseshit. A lot of people are very skilled liars, they do it by lying to themselves first.
One of my very close family members not only fooled a male relative of mine, but his mother, all his friends and everyone she had come to the wedding where she swore undying love and dedication to him. Everyone thought she was sweet and loving and truthful.
But, on that very day, she was heard to remark “I don’t know what I’ll have to look forward to now”.
Within 18 months, (indelibly testified through Facebook fail on her part, and still flatly denied to my relative’s face, even though she knows he’s seen the evidence!!) she was lying to him and fucking another guy behind his back, a couple months later she went through a sham “I just need some space” for a week, during which time she took out a loan in her married name to the marital home and got all settled in with her new fuck-piece (who had thrown out his pratner of 15 years and their 4 kids for the marrried woman, btw).
My relative was entirely in the dark until she announced she was leaving. Oh, he knew the mariage was failing and made efforts to reach out to her, but she was having none of it (with hindsight, because she was already fucking the next guy).
I could go on, there’s plenty more, but – the point:
Decent trusting people are the most vulnerable to lying cheats. Decent people have very little defence against them. That’s why they need protection with mandatory DNA testing.
Thank fuck my male relative had not had kids with his wife, nor had she got pregnant by the other fucker*, nor does my relative have any assets himself, nor a joint acount** with her. It could have been so much worse.
As it is, he’s got a fuckin’ ulcer and sleep panic attacks from the stress of behaving like a responsible adult in the midst of all this shit.
(*a violent, alcoholic, abusive footy hoolie, who has abandoned his own flesh-and-blood kids apparently.
**The wife’s mother had pressed for such, but my relative just responded with: “we both work and we pay 50/50, we don’t need one” – that he’d been screwed out of a stack of money ten years back by his last fiancee had him forearmed. That one had run off with the local drug dealer)
[I]That’s a fucking offensive comparison. “I might be in danger of rape or murder” compares with “this child may not be mine”? You even have to ask which is worse? In what universe?[/I]
Oh lovely. So you want a pissing contest? Ok fine.
Rape: A person having complete power and control over another person, leaving the other person scarred for life.
Paternity fraud: A person forcing another person to be a father of a child that isn’t his (it never happens the other way around because of biological differences), causing him to spend 18+ years of his life to be in economic burden that he did not choose to be in. And he would be scarred for life if he found out the lie.
The funny thing is, I never intended a comparison. My point was, if the women has the right to suspect that her partner MAY do something harmful to her, than the man should also have the right to suspect that his partner MAY do something harmful to him. It doesn’t matter what the harm is; harm is still harm. If pushing people off buildings is worse than pushing people off staircases, does that make pushing people off staircases okay?
Crap, typing fail. Should read:
“One of my very close male relatives was married pretty recently. The wife not only fooled my relative, but his mother, all his friends and everyone she had come to the wedding where she swore undying love and dedication to him. Everyone thought she was sweet and loving and truthful.”
“Don’t you just love the way the assumption is that the woman and the other man cheated and that they conspired to have the first bloke tricked into raising the child? Imagine the biological father in Joe’s scenario, being sued for the upkeep of a child he may not have known existed. But then Joe’s talking as if this is all some sort of property battle and the money he’s spent is the most important thing ever and he bought that kid and he was cheated and he still gets to keep it even though he has no biological connection with it and that’s the most important thing in the world or else why is he chasing this money in the first place ”
^This has been said/quoted twice now. All before I even entered this debate. So your attributing something someone else said to me.
And it’s spoiled people don’t understand that working class folks’ money is only gotten by the sacrifice of the time of their unique and irreplacable lives – doing some shitty job for a shitty boss… .
You can be 100% sure that anyone saying it’s “just money” aren’t talking about money they had to work for. People who talk like that get money handed to them.
It’s not money, if you’re a worker – it’s TIME. It’s LIFE. And it’s never, ever coming back.