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Warren Farrell’s notorious comments on date rape: Not any more defensible in context than out of it

WArren Farrell ponders (possibly) the mysteries of consent.

Warren Farrell, possibly pondering the mysteries of consent.

NOTE: This is the second installment of The Myth of Warren Farrell, a continuing series examining Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power, the most influential book in the Men’s Rights canon. You can see the first post here.

Men’s Rights elder Warren Farrell has been accused of being a “rape apologist,” largely because of one now-notorious sentence he wrote in The Myth of Male Power:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

This sentence is at least as puzzling as it is disturbing. Calling date rape “exciting” is pretty foul. But what on earth is “date fraud?”

To find out, let’s do what Farrell’s supporters insist we always do with his more troubling remarks: look at it in context to see if it is somehow more defensible – or, at the very least, to see if we can discern what exactly is is he even meant.

Looking at the sentence in context in  The Myth of Male Power, we find that it appears in the midst of a long discussion not only of date rape but also of a number of other dating-related behaviors that Farrell claims traumatize men in the same way date rape traumatizes women. So let’s back up a bit to let him spell out his basic premises — and define what “date fraud” is in the first place:

While the label “date rape” has helped women articulate the most dramatic aspect of dating from women’s perspective, men have no labels to help them articulate the most traumatic aspects of dating from their perspective. Now, of course, the most traumatic aspect is the possibility of being accused of date rape by a woman to whom he thought he was making love. If men did label the worst aspects of the traditional male role, though, they might label them “date robbery,” “date rejection,” “date responsibility,” “date fraud,” and “date lying.” (p.313, The Myth of Male Power, 1993 hardcover edition)

He proceeds from here to some Men’s Rights subreddit-style man-whinging:

The worst aspect of dating from the perspective of many men is how dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom – the social custom of him taking money out of his pocket, giving it to her, and calling it a date. To a young man, the worst dates feel like being robbed and rejected. Boys risk death to avoid rejection (e.g., by joining the Army).(p. 314)

I think Farrell is confusing “the Army” with “the French Foreign Legion” and real life with Laurel and Hardy movies.

Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape. (p. 314)

Yep. Paying for a woman’s dinner and having a pleasant conversation with her, only to have her refuse to have sex with you, is in Farrell’s mind just like being raped.

Having dealt with date robbery and rejection, Farrell  moves on to date fraud and lying:

If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his. (P 314)

Uh, Dr. Farrell, I’m pretty sure that women are still allowed to say no to sex even if they are kissing a man. Either partner, of whatever gender, is allowed to stop sexual activity at whatever point they want to, for whatever reason they want to. That how consent works.

And now we come to Farrell’s famous quote:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. (pp. 314-315)

It still doesn’t make sense to me, but that combination of “date rape” and “exciting” makes me queasy.

Perhaps the rest of Farrell’s paragraph will help to elucidate what he means:

Somehow, women’s romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said “No”. They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this “marry the rapist” theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women’s most enduring romance novels. (p. 315) 

Oh, so because some women enjoy fictionalized rape fantasies, real non-fictional date rape is therefore “exciting?”

Farrell follows this up, confusingly, with two sentences that utterly contradict one another:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”  He might just be trying to become her fantasy. (p. 315)

Three things. First: If the “conflict” is as Farrell sketched it out above — a woman saying “that’s far enough for now,” while kissing with “tongues still touching” — there is no conflict. Kissing, with tongues or without, does not give a man permission to put his penis in a woman. Reciprocal kissing gives you permission for … reciprocal kissing.

Second: when the alleged nonverbal “yeses” and the verbal “noes” conflict – or you think they do – here’s an idea: RESPECT THE VERBAL NOES. Err on the side of NOT-RAPE. If she says no, assume she means no, until she uses ACTUAL WORDS to say yes. Strange but true: woman can actually USE HUMAN LANGUAGE to express what they want. If a guy doesn’t respect a woman’s verbal “noes” because he thinks — or pretends to himself — that she’s saying “yes” with her body, how exactly can the law distinguish this from rape?

“Your honor, it’s true she told me no, but her elbows were saying “yes.””

Also: if your gal and you want to play out “nonconsensual” fantasies, that’s fine; lots of people do that — consensually. You just need to work out the basic rules and safewords in advance. There are entire subcultures of people devoted to this who will be happy to fill you in on the details. Really. They are very chatty.

Third: Do you all find it as creepy as I do that Farrell tends to sketch out these various rapey scenarios in the steamy prose of a second-rate romance novelist?

If you’re an MRA convinced I’m somehow misquoting Farrell here, here’s a screencap of most of the passages I just quoted which someone on the Men’s Rights subreddit helpfully posted some time ago. Or you could get hold of Farrell’s book and check for yourself.

Oh, but I’m not done yet. I’ve got even more context to provide.

Farrell tries his best to draw some sort of distinction between date rape and stranger-with-a-knife-rape:

We often hear, “Rape is rape, right?” No. A stranger forcing himself on a woman at knife point is different from a man and woman having sex while drunk and having regrets the morning. What is different? When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance. (p. 315)

So going on a date with someone and ostensibly making a “choice to explore sexual possibilities” means that it’s ok for people to force sex on you against your will later in the evening? Uh, Dr. Farrell, how exactly is this not rape? How does the fact that two people went to a movie beforehand turn coerced sex into not-real-rape?

You’ll have to ask Dr. Farrell that question, as his explanation makes no sense whatsoever to me.

A few pages down the road, Farrell warns about the dangers of “date rape” legislation in hyperbolic terms, arguing, bizarrely, that it will lead to more rape.

If the law tries to legislate our “yeses” and “noes” it will produce “the straitjacket generation” – a generation afraid to flirt, fearful of finding its love notes in a court suit. Date rape legislation will force suitors and courting to give way to courts and suing.

The empowerment of women lies not in the protection of females from date rape, but in resocializing both sexes to share date initiative taking and date paying so that both date rape and date fraud are minimized. We cannot end date rape by calling men “wimps” when they don’t initiate quickly enough, “rapists” when they do it too quickly, and “jerks” when they do it badly. If we increase the performance pressure only for men, we will reinforce men’s need to objectify women – which will lead to more rape. Men will be our rapists as long as men are our initiators.…

Laws on date rape create a climate of date hate. (p.340)

I don’t even know where to start with all that. That is just one giant steaming heap of nonsense. To put it as politely as I can.

Oh, in case you’re wondering, Farrell also thinks that a lot of  what’s called spousal rape is really “mercy sex,” because people who are married to one another often have sex when they don’t want to — and that’s the way it should be, since “all good relationships require ‘giving in,’ especially when our partner feels strongly.” Sex you don’t want is just part of what makes a happy marriage happy!

The Ms. survey can call it a rape; a relationship counselor will call it a relationship.

Spousal rape legislation is blackmail waiting to happen. (p. 338)

So, does putting Farrell’s “we called it exciting” quote in context transform it into something innocent and understandable and not-rapey?

I think it’s pretty clear that the answer is no.

But not everyone agrees with me on that. When someone on the Man’s Rights subreddit recently provided some of the context for Farrell’s quote, the assembled Men’s Righsters mostly thought what he was saying sounded fine to them, arguing that he brings up some very legitimate points, attacking feminists for quote mining, suggesting that “feminists don’t reality” and that the Feminist machine slanders anyone who gets in their way. Heck, one fellow even suggested that he had gotten the distinct impression that Feminists want to create more instances of “rape-by-misunderstanding” in order to punish men. Oh, and then one of them attacked my previous post on Farrell’s disturbing views on incest.

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Posted on May 3, 2013, in antifeminism, consent is hard, imaginary oppression, mansplaining, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, nice guys, oppressed men, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reddit, the myth of warren farrell, warren farrell and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 1,058 Comments.

  1. How long before you have to go to the service, Marie? Would you have time for a nap?

  2. @kittehs

    I took a tiny nap (30 min, not asleep for most) but then had to have dinner. Need to get dressed pretty soon, I have to leave in 40 min. :/ next year I really should take a nap sooner XD

  3. Unsolicited evening update:

    My fancy dress is too tight around the bust now… :( my boobs chose the most I convent times to have grown

    And again, you guys tell me if I’m bugging you… Feel like a nuisance today.

  4. I’m totally late, but…

    I agree that a picture is worth a thousand words. If someone draws a clearly-identifiable picture of you and zir fucking, and then shows it to you and, like, points to it and nods and grins, you may take that as a sign that zie wants to have sex with you.

  5. thebewilderness

    Part of what is so weird about the argument of words say no and body language says yes when tongues touch is that he ignores the obvious interpretation of the body language. That would be that the person is enjoying making out. So a clearly communicated this is far enough but I am enjoying this with both words and body language is what? Too obvious?
    Do people still say making out?

  6. @thebewilderness

    But how can you want to make out and NOT want to fuck? That’s sending mixed signals, you know! Also it’s cruel to the poor menz, because getting to make out without also getting sex gives their penis a sad, and that’s the worst thing ever. Also it makes the woman a cocktease, which is like being a slut but worse.

  7. katz, I’ve been looking through Hark, A Vagrant this morning and your “picture of them fucking” comment fit perfectly with some of the Mr Darcy or Victoria and Albert comics! :D

  8. Gbye manboobzers have to go soon, and my mom wants her iPad back. Good night/day/ morning/ whatever time people are in.

  9. See you later, Marie! :)

  10. thebewilderness

    So then that would be the “date fraud” bit? Enjoying their company, talking, getting to know them, making out, but no intercourse, is date fraud.
    So basically he does assert that women should fuck for food.

  11. CassandraSays

    My cynical side says that he knows exactly what he’s suggesting and is in favor of this paradigm because he’s too cheap to hire a sex worker, since it would cost a lot more than the average dinner. My slightly less cynical side says that he’s too stupid to even realize that he’s suggesting that women fuck in exchange for food.

  12. Given Farrell professed to believe women lie about not wanting to be raped by their fathers, I’d go for the more cynical view. Like the bowelmovement he’s so admired by, he thinks women exist for men to fuck, and that rape really means “man is denied instant boner gratification”.

  13. I remember this one time I was aroused and didn’t get laid.

    It was horrible

    /hopefully unnecesary sarcasm disclaimer

  14. Fade! How did you cope? :O

  15. @Kitteh

    “permashitstain?” “bowelmovement?”

    Please continue to make up awesome words.

  16. LOL thanks, Aaliyah!

  17. Farrell is terrible. Rape is terrible and I don’t really think he understands it at all because I don’t think he can think of himself as a victim.

    Shameless self-promotion: On other news, I’ve published my first pattern on Ravelry: http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/thesis

    As a special deal, for the next week Manboobzer knitters can get it free with the coupon code manboobz.

  18. (Sorry if this is a repost. WordPress seemed to eat my comment.)

    I think Farrell’s problem is that he has no empathy and can’t imagine what being the victim of rape must be, so he feels free to assume it isn’t that bad.

    Shameless self-promotion: I’ve posted my first knitting pattern on Ravelry, http://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/thesis. I’m trying to make money off it, but you all can pick it up for free in the next week. Just use the coupon code manboobz.

  19. Whoa, that’s the coolest pattern, words1nner! Too advanced for me yet but I really like it. Would it be at all effective for a beret rather than a beanie, or does it need the tension? (Knitting novice here, if that wasn’t obvious.)

    This is the most exciting part of the day at the house of cats, so far.

  20. For a beret you need to make the brim a lot smaller than the body of the piece, so you’d have to mess with the stitch count or gauge. What I’d do to make it a beret is knit a few more rounds on the brim, then increase so that you have enough stitches for one or two more repeats on the body. (So a total of 12 or 24 stitches.)

    But no, the fabric isn’t stiff at all.

  21. Nekora you have rationalized your acceptance of what I consider a puzzling and in your case apparently chosen voluntary celibacy. Also, if your nym is a reference to Ras-a-Naquora, um, I wish you all the best if history repeats.

  22. Can believe I’m treating Eurosabra like he might be making a point and not engaging in “mild gaslighting”, but at what point did Nekora say, or en imply, that he wasn’t having sexytimes with people besides the person he *gasp* “friend zoned”?

    Bob Goblin — I gave my mother my iPad to read Brz’s idiocy about teaching kids boundaries, she found hilarious your comment about how well treating women like people works, if he can manage that. Probably should’ve warned her, I’m lucky she didn’t get coffee on my iPad. So yeah, my mother finds you funny…that seemed more important in my head, but whatever, I’ve already typed it!

  23. CassandraSays

    Go away and stop trying to recruit/pee in other people’s cornflakes, Eurosabra.

  24. Ewwwwww…

    Thanks for that mental image >.<

  25. CassandraSays

    Recruiting by making other people unhappy and insecure, and then offering them salvation from that feeling! They really are a cult.

  26. wordsp1nner, yeah, I’ve knitted a few berets, largely by accident. I used a pattern for a slouch cap, but because I had just one ball of the yarn I wanted, and several spares of a matching but finer one, I did that in rib for the brim, then went to a larger needle and added for the crown, and it worked a treat. I’ve only done berets in fancy yarns, so far, ones where patterns would be wasted (the only patterns I’ve done at all are rib and moss, and even mucked up the moss on the jumper I did for Louis!). I’m thinking now of your brioche pattern and how adaptable it would be for so many colours!

  27. “Nekora you have rationalized your acceptance of what I consider a puzzling and in your case apparently chosen voluntary celibacy.”

    Shorter Eurosabra: “A man didn’t fuck a woman! OH NOES!”

  28. Hey Eurosabra,

    I have also turned down sex from women. I’ve accepted it from others. I’ve even “friend zoned” several admirers.

    Some women have turned down sex from me. Others have accepted it. A few have “friend zoned” me, as well.

    None of this makes us celibate. This is just how healthy, sexually-active adults function. We make choices, and respect those of others. You should give it a try sometime. Like I told Brz, not being a rapey asshole works wonders.

    @Argenti — I’m just glad I could bring a little levity to the proceedings. I’m cheeky in the face of assholery, and it’s nice to be appreciated. Give your mom my regards.

  29. @Nekora,

    I think we might be clones. I also shave my head (mostly because my hairline is receding), and I workout regularly. I’m about to start doing CrossFit, actually. People’s perceptions of me as traditionally masculine seem to have increased as my fitness level improved; exercise definitely improved my posture, and probably changed my entire bearing.

    Anyway, new friends are often surprised to learn I’m a geek, as well.

  30. ::shakes head::

    Oh you guys, you’re asking way too much of Eurosabra and his ilk! Fancy thinking that anyone has a right to say no, or just be not interested in someone sexually! Why, you’re betraying TEH MENZ merely by suggesting that not all guys are just adjuncts to hyperactive penises (even though that contradicts the whole “men are superior beings of logic and brainz and far better than animalistic women” line). As for thinking there’s any merit in treating women as human beings equal to yourselves, why, pshaw. That’s not what getting teh secks is about! That’s not how you do it! The whole point is to manipulate, lie, gaslight or physically force her to have sex she doesn’t want! How else can you then go and brag about your prowess to your mates?

    ::barf::

  31. @Eurosabra,

    This might come as a surprise to you, but getting sex isn’t an overriding goal of my life. At this point in my life, I can take it or leave it. Why should I be trying to have sex with any woman who shows interest? I’m looking for someone I have an emotional connection with first.

    What’s with PUA types and treating sex with women as an overriding goal, and ‘celibacy’ to be the worst fate that can happen to a man? To be completely honest, I’d rather just masturbate than shove it into a woman I don’t even know or like. There’s nothing magical or special about having sex with a woman, as compared to masturbation, if you’re just using them to get off, like they’re some kind of sex toy, as PUAs do.

    But what do I know, I must be ‘broken’ in some way, as a man, if I’m not some kind of slavering beast, who wants to fuck every marginally attractive woman I see, since that’s the way PUA types seem to conceive of men.

  32. Bob Goblin — I’ll pass that along come morning (I’m the nocturnal one around here!)

    You said Doctor Who earlier right? Cuz much as I love Madam Vastra and Jenny and Strax…didn’t/doesn’t Strax die at Demon’s Run? That is the same Sontarian right?

    And Gaiman is making Cybers scary again (his words) next week…yeah, looks that way.

  33. Nekora – high fives, whoops, cheers, whistles and generally YAY for that comment!

    Not that decent men don’t think that anyway, but oy, it’s nice to see it written so clearly even a gobshite like Eurosabra should be able to understand it.

  34. @Argenti,

    That wound only looked fatal. Strax just fainted, is all. There’s a three minute short as part of the Season 7 download that covers it.

    Gaiman + Cybermen = Win!

  35. Argenti – when weren’t Cybermen scary? Only time I can think of is in The Five Doctors when a group of them is killed by a Raston killer robot – nasty enough to make one pity them.

  36. I give a 2nd round of applause to Nekora’s latest comment.

  37. @Bob Goblin,

    That’s kinda funny. I think it has something to do with being a nerd in the generation that we grew up in. A lot of my nerd friends around my age have started getting in shape in their mid-to-late 20’s, just as I have. I shave my head for the same reason too, honestly, and I think I look a lot better this way. And I’ve started to do weightlifting with friends three times a week, and I try to do an hour of cardio the days i don’t lift. It’s really made a difference in my body shape and bearing as well. I feel great, though people are telling me that I’m starting to look slightly intimidating, which is an odd feeling.

    I was always a sedentary nerd before. Going from not being able to do a single real push-up to being able to do 30-40 really makes you feel different about yourself, in a good way. Haha.

  38. This is a minor nitpick, but if you’ve “apparently chosen” something, it’s sort of taken for granted that it’s voluntary.

    (Troll is redundant and boring, news at 11.)

  39. Nekora,

    I’m actually not in my 20s anymore, but I take your point. If being seen as intimidating bothers you, might I suggest losing the goatee? I find that people perceive muscular men with facial hair as scarier than those without, generally speaking. Not sure why.

    Yeah, getting in shape was, for me, an amazing adventure. Before I got into it five years ago, I’d been a sedentary nerd my whole life, too. Now, I’m in better health than I was at half my age. I’m looking forward to CrossFit, as I have several friends who swear by it, and their results have been impressive, to say the least.

    Plus, I still get little bursts of glee from wearing Doctor Who, Star Trek and D&D-themed shirts to the gym.

  40. ” Plus, I still get little bursts of glee from wearing Doctor Who, Star Trek and D&D-themed shirts to the gym.”

    Do you get weird looks? (I don’t go to gyms so wouldn’t know.)

  41. And thanks for the kind words, Kittehserf and Bob. I wonder how the PUAs fit me into their apha/beta/omega worldview, as a man who could get sex if he wished, but doesn’t take it. Maybe they just think I’m gay or something, to avoid the total breakdown of their view of what men are supposed to be.

  42. Question, related to Nekora’s last post: are gay men too effeminate and therefore omega, or are they the ultimate MGTOW?

  43. @Bob Goblin,

    Maybe I’ll have to look into CrossFit myself then. We’ll see. What sort of thing is it, anyway? Do you have to pay for classes?

    I don’t want to lose the goatee, though, simply because I think I’d probably look like a skinhead without the goatee, and I’d rather look slightly intimidating than look like a member of a neo-nazi subculture.

    I like it, anyway. My facial hair is rather bright blonde, which is distinctive. I don’t think I look too intimidating, and my normal body language is pretty unassuming, so it hasn’t become a problem.

    I wanna start wearing geeky T-shirts to the gym, and elsewhere, but I just don’t have too many yet. Maybe I’ll have to start looking around on the internet to buy some. What are good places for that?

  44. Jayem, whoever says gay men are effeminate, as a rule, obviously hasn’t met a lot of gay men. Some of the manliest, and most muscular, fit men I know are REALLY gay.

  45. Kittehs,

    I get weird looks for the nerdy stuff sometimes, but even more if I’m wearing a vegan or feminist themed shirt. I don’t make a point of wearing themed shirts to my work outs, but most of my Ts are themed, so it ends up that way as a default. I’ve also got several science-themed shirts that people like. They’re great ice-breakers.

    I actually had a woman at my gym chat me up and ask me out thanks to a feminist themed shirt. So that was nice.

    Nekora,

    Well, the whole point of being an “alpha” is to have your pick of women, right? I mean, right? This makes no sense, though, cuz according to PUAs, I have zero game. Maybe I should market the Zero Game Method.

  46. Nekora, you could always try the Manboobz t-shirts on sale here! :)

  47. Bob, you should totally market the Zero Game Method. Think of how many PUAs you could sucker into buying it if you worded it carefully. :D

  48. Oh, no, I’m totally aware it’s a stupid stereotype, and I know plenty of masculine gay guys. I was wondering about from an MRA perspective. Sorry, should’ve made that clearer.

  49. True alphas are so alpha they don’t even NEED game. If women catch on to the idea that you are using ‘game’, you’ve already lost. The Zero Game Method teaches you how to pick up women without the risk of them figuring out that you’re cheating the system with game!

  50. @Nekora — CrossFit is a regimen that incorporates cardio, strength training, Olympic lifting, gymnastics and yoga/Pilates core work all in one workout. It only comes in classes, the price of which scares some people off. But broken down hourly, it’s much less than the average gym membership + personal trainer costs. Also, if someone’s broke, they can just find almost all the movements and routines on YouTube. I haven’t done it yet, but my two-week Build Up course starts Monday, so I can let you know more if you like.

    As for geeky shirts and such, my first stop is always ThinkGeek.com. I got an awesome light-saber desk lamp and some yard Jawas there, too.

  51. I realized, in retrospect, that the use of the word ‘women’ is too respectful, and will not pass as PUA bullshit. Oh well. It was worth a shot.

  52. @Bob Goblin – I think I’ll pass on it then. I currently work out for ‘free’, since my apartment complex has a public workout room with freeweights, machines, treadmills, and ellipticals. I’m currently focusing on the elliptical right now, and trying to burn ~700 calories per workout, when I do cardio. It’s tough but I’m sticking with it.

  53. reginaldgriswold

    Well, Nekora, I think the answer is that they can’t fit you in. Their view of the world is shaped by people as wretched and awful as they. They probably think you’re lying because they don’t have enough experience with people to realize the diversity of lifestyles that exist.

  54. Ah distracted by iPad games and thus replying to things from half an hour ago!

    “That wound only looked fatal. Strax just fainted, is all. There’s a three minute short as part of the Season 7 download that covers it.”

    On one hand, excellent, I like Strax. On the other, don’t make me need supplimentals damnit!

    “when weren’t Cybermen scary?”

    When Craig defeated them WITH LUVVVV

  55. Nekora, do you do interval training? I’ve found that if I do a short (~20 minutes), high-intensity interval routine once a week, I can significantly improve my normal cardio work for the rest of the week. I usually burn ~700 cal in a one-hour run (pace = 8.5 minute mile) framed by a seven-minute warm-up/cool-down. But that’s not where I started. It was really challenging to get there.

    Good luck!

  56. The Zero Game Method:

    Step 1: Don’t be a rapey dick bag.
    Step 2:
    Step 3: Sexytime!

    So, I’ve got some refining to do, clearly.

  57. @Bob Goblin, I can’t actually run very well, at my current state. I stick to the ellipticals, for cardio, at high resistance (Approximately ‘walking through mud’ resistance.) I’ve always had bad ankles and knees, and I still have some weight to lose. Actually doing running tears my knees and ankles and feet to hell.

    I’m definitely a lot better than I was. I started this journey at about 280 pounds or so, and now I weigh about 225. I’m trying to get down to a 34-inch waist, which I figure will happen at about 190, for me.

    Maybe I’ll be able to do running once I drop closer to my target, but I don’t think I’ll ever really be a runner.

  58. CassandraSays

    You two are just too well adjusted. The problem is that you insist on seeing sex as an activity that’s supposed to be fun for everyone involved, rather than as a way to right the scales of cosmic injustice and punish women for being picky bitches who dare to have preferences (while also raising your social status among other misogynists).

  59. OT but wotthehell: two new blog posts. Well, old ones reposted, ‘cos I’m finally transferring Louis’s diaries from the website they were first posted on. These are the first pieces we did together. :)

    http://vignettesacrosstheveil.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/in-his-own-words/

    http://vignettesacrosstheveil.wordpress.com/2013/05/05/easter-saturday/

  60. An announcement, especially for Tanen: Anyone interested in discussing Mary Koss’s rape research needs to do it here:

    http://manboobz.com/2013/05/05/thread-for-hostile-visitors-to-endlessly-rehash-the-issues-they-have-with-feminist-research-or-whatever/

    instead of in this thread. And actually, Tanen, if you post any more comments on it in this thread you’ll be banned.

  61. WP still has sticky posts right? I’d be so tempted to sticky that with a note not to bother trying to derail elsewhere.

    Then again, we get glossary trolls. Perhaps I have my hopes too high to think that would ever work. (If it does, I have most of my statistics laden replies saved, since it does just come up over and over again)

  62. And thanks for the kind words, Kittehserf and Bob. I wonder how the PUAs fit me into their apha/beta/omega worldview, as a man who could get sex if he wished, but doesn’t take it.

    Well, this is the problem (for them) – I too have had very little difficulty finding someone to have sex with, and my last dry spell of longer than a fortnight was in the early 1990s. So clearly I must be an alpha – woohoo!

    But I’ve been very happily and faithfully married for over a decade, and currently do most of the childcare while she’s the main breadwinner. So I must therefore be an obvious beta – although if that was the case, my wife should be secretly despising me and constantly keeping an eye out for passing alphas, and I haven’t seen much (or indeed) any sign of that.

    (Of course, I can’t police what goes on at work, but since she works in an overwhelmingly female environment and two of her colleagues are good friends of mine as well, they’ve been covering up her alpha dalliances impressively thoroughly: there hasn’t been even the tiniest verbal misstep from either her or them.)

    I daresay I’m an omega from time to time as well.

  63. Yeah I don’t think the category of “happily married father” is a thing to them (lucky you…well, assuming the wee wetherbys are out of diapers?)

  64. Wetherby, good to see you posting again! :)

    Say, if someone’s alpha and omega (not, not that person) he could be Alf A. O’Mega, the well-known studly incel.

  65. Talacaris’ problem is that he thinks choosing not to sleep with one woman is the same as choosing not to sleep with any women, because as far as he can tell, we’re all the same person.

  66. Geeks who work out *and* shave their heads? From now on I am just going to imagine Nekora and Bob Goblin look like Vin Diesel: http://worldsmostdangerousdm.blogspot.com/2011/02/geek-of-week-vin-diesel.html

  67. Wordsp1nner, your pattern is great! It’s cute, and it looks like it would be really fun to knit. If I wasn’t in the middle of the Longest Knitting Project Evarrr, I would totally snag it.

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