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Warren Farrell’s notorious comments on date rape: Not any more defensible in context than out of it

WArren Farrell ponders (possibly) the mysteries of consent.

Warren Farrell, possibly pondering the mysteries of consent.

NOTE: This is the second installment of The Myth of Warren Farrell, a continuing series examining Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power, the most influential book in the Men’s Rights canon. You can see the first post here.

Men’s Rights elder Warren Farrell has been accused of being a “rape apologist,” largely because of one now-notorious sentence he wrote in The Myth of Male Power:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

This sentence is at least as puzzling as it is disturbing. Calling date rape “exciting” is pretty foul. But what on earth is “date fraud?”

To find out, let’s do what Farrell’s supporters insist we always do with his more troubling remarks: look at it in context to see if it is somehow more defensible – or, at the very least, to see if we can discern what exactly is is he even meant.

Looking at the sentence in context in  The Myth of Male Power, we find that it appears in the midst of a long discussion not only of date rape but also of a number of other dating-related behaviors that Farrell claims traumatize men in the same way date rape traumatizes women. So let’s back up a bit to let him spell out his basic premises — and define what “date fraud” is in the first place:

While the label “date rape” has helped women articulate the most dramatic aspect of dating from women’s perspective, men have no labels to help them articulate the most traumatic aspects of dating from their perspective. Now, of course, the most traumatic aspect is the possibility of being accused of date rape by a woman to whom he thought he was making love. If men did label the worst aspects of the traditional male role, though, they might label them “date robbery,” “date rejection,” “date responsibility,” “date fraud,” and “date lying.” (p.313, The Myth of Male Power, 1993 hardcover edition)

He proceeds from here to some Men’s Rights subreddit-style man-whinging:

The worst aspect of dating from the perspective of many men is how dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom – the social custom of him taking money out of his pocket, giving it to her, and calling it a date. To a young man, the worst dates feel like being robbed and rejected. Boys risk death to avoid rejection (e.g., by joining the Army).(p. 314)

I think Farrell is confusing “the Army” with “the French Foreign Legion” and real life with Laurel and Hardy movies.

Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape. (p. 314)

Yep. Paying for a woman’s dinner and having a pleasant conversation with her, only to have her refuse to have sex with you, is in Farrell’s mind just like being raped.

Having dealt with date robbery and rejection, Farrell  moves on to date fraud and lying:

If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his. (P 314)

Uh, Dr. Farrell, I’m pretty sure that women are still allowed to say no to sex even if they are kissing a man. Either partner, of whatever gender, is allowed to stop sexual activity at whatever point they want to, for whatever reason they want to. That how consent works.

And now we come to Farrell’s famous quote:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. (pp. 314-315)

It still doesn’t make sense to me, but that combination of “date rape” and “exciting” makes me queasy.

Perhaps the rest of Farrell’s paragraph will help to elucidate what he means:

Somehow, women’s romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said “No”. They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this “marry the rapist” theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women’s most enduring romance novels. (p. 315) 

Oh, so because some women enjoy fictionalized rape fantasies, real non-fictional date rape is therefore “exciting?”

Farrell follows this up, confusingly, with two sentences that utterly contradict one another:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”  He might just be trying to become her fantasy. (p. 315)

Three things. First: If the “conflict” is as Farrell sketched it out above — a woman saying “that’s far enough for now,” while kissing with “tongues still touching” — there is no conflict. Kissing, with tongues or without, does not give a man permission to put his penis in a woman. Reciprocal kissing gives you permission for … reciprocal kissing.

Second: when the alleged nonverbal “yeses” and the verbal “noes” conflict – or you think they do – here’s an idea: RESPECT THE VERBAL NOES. Err on the side of NOT-RAPE. If she says no, assume she means no, until she uses ACTUAL WORDS to say yes. Strange but true: woman can actually USE HUMAN LANGUAGE to express what they want. If a guy doesn’t respect a woman’s verbal “noes” because he thinks — or pretends to himself — that she’s saying “yes” with her body, how exactly can the law distinguish this from rape?

“Your honor, it’s true she told me no, but her elbows were saying “yes.””

Also: if your gal and you want to play out “nonconsensual” fantasies, that’s fine; lots of people do that — consensually. You just need to work out the basic rules and safewords in advance. There are entire subcultures of people devoted to this who will be happy to fill you in on the details. Really. They are very chatty.

Third: Do you all find it as creepy as I do that Farrell tends to sketch out these various rapey scenarios in the steamy prose of a second-rate romance novelist?

If you’re an MRA convinced I’m somehow misquoting Farrell here, here’s a screencap of most of the passages I just quoted which someone on the Men’s Rights subreddit helpfully posted some time ago. Or you could get hold of Farrell’s book and check for yourself.

Oh, but I’m not done yet. I’ve got even more context to provide.

Farrell tries his best to draw some sort of distinction between date rape and stranger-with-a-knife-rape:

We often hear, “Rape is rape, right?” No. A stranger forcing himself on a woman at knife point is different from a man and woman having sex while drunk and having regrets the morning. What is different? When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance. (p. 315)

So going on a date with someone and ostensibly making a “choice to explore sexual possibilities” means that it’s ok for people to force sex on you against your will later in the evening? Uh, Dr. Farrell, how exactly is this not rape? How does the fact that two people went to a movie beforehand turn coerced sex into not-real-rape?

You’ll have to ask Dr. Farrell that question, as his explanation makes no sense whatsoever to me.

A few pages down the road, Farrell warns about the dangers of “date rape” legislation in hyperbolic terms, arguing, bizarrely, that it will lead to more rape.

If the law tries to legislate our “yeses” and “noes” it will produce “the straitjacket generation” – a generation afraid to flirt, fearful of finding its love notes in a court suit. Date rape legislation will force suitors and courting to give way to courts and suing.

The empowerment of women lies not in the protection of females from date rape, but in resocializing both sexes to share date initiative taking and date paying so that both date rape and date fraud are minimized. We cannot end date rape by calling men “wimps” when they don’t initiate quickly enough, “rapists” when they do it too quickly, and “jerks” when they do it badly. If we increase the performance pressure only for men, we will reinforce men’s need to objectify women – which will lead to more rape. Men will be our rapists as long as men are our initiators.…

Laws on date rape create a climate of date hate. (p.340)

I don’t even know where to start with all that. That is just one giant steaming heap of nonsense. To put it as politely as I can.

Oh, in case you’re wondering, Farrell also thinks that a lot of  what’s called spousal rape is really “mercy sex,” because people who are married to one another often have sex when they don’t want to — and that’s the way it should be, since “all good relationships require ‘giving in,’ especially when our partner feels strongly.” Sex you don’t want is just part of what makes a happy marriage happy!

The Ms. survey can call it a rape; a relationship counselor will call it a relationship.

Spousal rape legislation is blackmail waiting to happen. (p. 338)

So, does putting Farrell’s “we called it exciting” quote in context transform it into something innocent and understandable and not-rapey?

I think it’s pretty clear that the answer is no.

But not everyone agrees with me on that. When someone on the Man’s Rights subreddit recently provided some of the context for Farrell’s quote, the assembled Men’s Righsters mostly thought what he was saying sounded fine to them, arguing that he brings up some very legitimate points, attacking feminists for quote mining, suggesting that “feminists don’t reality” and that the Feminist machine slanders anyone who gets in their way. Heck, one fellow even suggested that he had gotten the distinct impression that Feminists want to create more instances of “rape-by-misunderstanding” in order to punish men. Oh, and then one of them attacked my previous post on Farrell’s disturbing views on incest.

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Posted on May 3, 2013, in antifeminism, consent is hard, imaginary oppression, mansplaining, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, nice guys, oppressed men, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reddit, the myth of warren farrell, warren farrell and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 1,058 Comments.

  1. thebionicmommy

    Amused

    part of the “dating isn’t like a romance novel” or w/e strikes me as mad at women for having standards, too.

    Like “woman have standards” and some people think “Omg, women are so vain and gold diggery they want a rich hot romance hero not all men are like that sheesh!”

    I agree, and the men that gripe about women reading romance novels or watching soap operas are jealous of the male characters in them. Oh no, what if a woman compares me to James Denton after watching Desperate Housewives! It’s not fair for any shows to have handsome men, you see.

    Now of course, it is an insult to boners everywhere if any woman on TV doesn’t look like a Victoria’s Secret model. This is taken to such an extreme that shows and movies will do ridiculous things like cast a 30 year old women as a mother for someone less than ten years younger than her. I’ve never seen this happen with male actors, though.

    Back when Fabio was in those butter commercials, I remember guys whining about him and hating him. I laughed so hard because first, the guy wasn’t that attractive to all straight women. Second, they themselves would drool over Shania Twain or Cindy Crawford. Oh, that’s different somehow, because stuff and reasons.

  2. @Adam

    Is it now? Are you sure? Why haven’t I met a single Woman who wants to go Dutch, and claims that she is a Feminist, at heart, at least.

    Not being acquainted with the women you’ve met, I’ve no idea.

    From my experience, even the ones that say that they aren’t Feminists, are in fact Feminists to a significant degree, in which case they are lying outright claiming that they do not support Feminism.

    From my experience, assuming that the woman that you’ve set your sights on is a liar is possibly not the best way to get a viable relationship off the ground.

    Mind you, every woman, even the ones that pick up the tab, want Men to do so, and when the Man does not, they start looking out for one that does, surreptitiously.

    What absolute twaddle. My wife is the main income-earner in our family, and she seems entirely happy with the arrangement – even though she’s effectively picking up a fair chunk of the tab whenever we go out. Same with a longstanding arrangement that I have with a close friend – we alternate picking up the tab, regardless of whether the last place we ate at was significantly cheaper/more expensive. (I don’t keep track of these things, and very much doubt that she does either – we’ve been doing this for nigh on fifteen years, so I suspect it’s evened itself out.)

  3. Toady I learned that paying for someone’s dinner and then not getting nookie is *exactly* like being raped and fearing for your life. Fantastic.

  4. Aaliyah: I’m so glad the CEMB forum is looking good to you. I’d originally passed it over, actually–I figured, “Well, it’s for England/Europe, so not really gonna be much about [your] situation.” Then I asked at a feminist atheist blog (one of several, actually) that I follow, and the author suggested their Forum was more international than I’d realized, and folks there might be able to give you hints on more local resources.

    So, credit where credit is due–I got the suggestion from Ophelia Benson of Butterflies & Wheels.

  5. Mind you, every woman, even the ones that pick up the tab, want Men to do so, and when the Man does not, they start looking out for one that does, surreptitiousl

    Omg, this has got to be the definition of mansplaining. How ’bout you not tell us what we want or what we do, mmkay?

  6. Why haven’t I met a single Woman who wants to go Dutch, and claims that she is a Feminist, at heart, at least.

    Gee, not only am I a woman who identifies as a feminist, I am one who frequently asks the person I am going on a date with how the issue of payment is made. In fact, I have a date tomorrow at 1 PM and I bought the movie tickets, I plan on buying all of the food he wants to eat at the theatre and if we go for ice cream afterwards, I am paying for the ice cream.

    I sure hope you have a mop for all the head exploding I am sure this is causing you.

    From my experience, even the ones that say that they aren’t Feminists, are in fact Feminists to a significant degree, in which case they are lying outright claiming that they do not support Feminism

    You can support the tenets of feminism without actually saying you are a feminist. For instance, my sister believes women are people. She does not ID as a feminist.

    You might want to get a bucket to go with that mop. Getting messy in here.

    Mind you, every woman, even the ones that pick up the tab, want Men to do so, and when the Man does not, they start looking out for one that does, surreptitiously

    Nah, when we are doing that it is because we are actively looking for an escape from you. Because you are icky and we do not want to be around icky. We also find your demanding that you pay annoying but politely go along with it because it is not worth the hassle of stopping you and the epic fits you put on.

    Have some water and soap to go with the clean up.

  7. thebionicmommy: Pellrick, of course, would’ve suggested that by casting 20-somethings in the role of 40-year-old women, TV stations were ‘exalting’ women’s beauty, thereby being disrespectful of men. Because, um, reasons.

    Wetherby: My wife and I are in a similar position, income-wise; it’s less obvious to people, though, because her paycheck winds up being the serious money we use to pay bills, rent, etc; mine’s the one we use for ‘fun’ stuff like going out to eat or the movies. So I often end up paying for things with waitstaff. Still, it always amazes me how often they assume the man is paying–even if she is the one who asks for the check, they’ll glance at me, then when they come back to the table, set it near my spot.

  8. thebionicmommy

    Is it now? Are you sure? Why haven’t I met a single Woman who wants to go Dutch, and claims that she is a Feminist, at heart, at least.

    From my experience, even the ones that say that they aren’t Feminists, are in fact Feminists to a significant degree, in which case they are lying outright claiming that they do not support Feminism

    Well, in a way, this is true. There are a lot of people who will say they aren’t feminists, but if you ask them questions, you’ll find out they agree with many or most feminist ideals. This isn’t because the people are lying but because they believe that the straw feminism portrayed by the media or by reactionaries represents all of feminism.

  9. I plan on buying all of the food he wants to eat at the theatre and if we go for ice cream afterwards, I am paying for the ice cream.

    @princessbonbon

    I think the answer is that you are either horrible for emasculating him or leeching off him, and there is no way to win.

    I also wonder how MRAs would handle my dad and his fiancee, who is marrying him even though he’s unemployed*. It is either love or some strange thing that would make mra’s brains explode.

    *which could get expensive, considering she has 3 kids and he has 2 or 3 that depend on him depending on where my sister decides to live.

  10. thebionicmommy

    Gee, not only am I a woman who identifies as a feminist, I am one who frequently asks the person I am going on a date with how the issue of payment is made. In fact, I have a date tomorrow at 1 PM and I bought the movie tickets, I plan on buying all of the food he wants to eat at the theatre and if we go for ice cream afterwards, I am paying for the ice cream.

    Princessbonbon, oh no! Didn’t you know that paying on a date emasculates the man? But if he pays, then you are a mooch. If you split the costs, he would still be oppressed somehow. No matter what a woman does about the check, she is probably wrong.

  11. Oh, that’s different somehow, because stuff and reasons.

    I thought “Because they are men!” And that led to this thought:

    Of course.

  12. thebionicmommy

    Oops, ninja’ed.

  13. Princessbonbon, oh no! Didn’t you know that paying on a date emasculates the man? But if he pays, then you are a mooch. If you split the costs, he would still be oppressed somehow. No matter what a woman does about the check, she is probably wrong.

    Probably but I think I am okay with the being wrong if it means a nice time is had by the two of us. Now if you hear about the epic ice cream food fight tomorrow night then you will know it definitely happened.

  14. Dvärghundspossen:

    I’ve seen this before, and can’t really agree… Women have to spend way more TIME on their looks than men in order to meet society’s standards, but I don’t think we really need to spend more money. Cheap make-up doesn’t really cost much, and I seriously doubt anyone can tell the difference between a woman in cheap make-up and a one in expensive (when someone says “cheap make-up” as derogatory it’s more about the way it’s applied or the colours chosen). And particularly if it’s a fancier place the dating couple go to, I’d say women’s clothes are generally cheaper. A suit costs a lot, but a nice-looking dress can be had for far less. So I’d say it’s more about women being “required” to spend much more TIME on the way they look, not really much more money.

    Actually, I’m going to come back at this one and suggest it’s not as cut-and-dried as “suit vs. dress”, unless you’re only talking about a single date.

    For men, a single good suit, with some extra shirts and ties, is all you need to be considered ‘sharp dressed’ for a year. Women, on the other hand, not only are expected to dress up for dates, but to have a string of completely different outfits so that the guy doesn’t get bored. Because that’s the woman’s problem.

    One good suit: $250.
    Four extra shirts and some ties: $50

    Five nice dresses at $80 each: $400

    (And note–men’s dress shoes are CHEAP compared to women’s–and again, one pair vs. several, to match those outfits.)

    In addition, the suit? Is pretty much good for anything but the hottest weather (whereupon you shift to just the shirt and tie). Women’s clothing, by design, rotates in seasons, so unless you live someplace fairly stable (California, for instance), you’re going to need at least three wardrobes.

    Most women I know who are considered moderately fashionable have to build their wardrobe over time–a top here, a skirt there, a dress later on–and hope their body-type doesn’t change, just to be able to handle the financial impact. A guy can spend a fraction of the money, once every couple years, and get compliments on being a ‘snappy dresser’.

  15. Finally a troll. Today was so dull without any.

    I’ll just note that if you assume that people want something in direct contradiction to what they say and do, then your personal experience is worthless.

  16. Women, on the other hand, not only are expected to dress up for dates, but to have a string of completely different outfits

    Last time I went shopping for clothes since I needed to update my wardrobe, I spent $800. That will last me about four to six months depending on the weather.

    I do have some pieces that last for several years but tops generally have to be changed frequently, bottoms can be stretched if you wear mostly black.

  17. Hey, bonus points: Capitalizing man but not Woman.

    Here, let’s try something semi-fun.

    First, we have a look at the sales stats for Sweet, Savage Love. I can’t find any, but a blurp on Amazon does say that there’s 55 million of the authors book in print, world wide.

    Good enough, in fact, even better than the original number. Sweet Savage Love only would be lover, but the full bibliography of Rosemary Rogers 27 books works for me.

    So 55 million? So let’s take the current world total of population – some 7 billion (Us Census adjusts real time, so some 7 billion. I copied the number today at 00:45, Central European)

    Okay, let’s qualify…

    We half the number, 50 % the human race doesn’t count ( Because Men Can Distinguish Between Reality And Fantasy )

    Further more, let’s half the number again, to just utterly disregard half of human females, seeing as we’re assuming they’re either too old or too young or too something something for Farrrel and the MRA to consider them date-ble.

    So ultimately, you end up with 7 billion divided by 4, and 55 million in percentage of that evens out to just:

    3.092345156 –> 3.1 % of every date-able woman in MRA logic. If we actually took a full half of the current world total, we’d have a smaller number ( just near 1 % )

    So, assuming Warren Ferret speaks the truth, and, INDEED, Sweet, Savage Love is the gate way to the soul of the female of the species homo sapien sapiens, and the way to the heart of a woman is rape, it’d still only apply for 3 %.

    3 out of a 100.

    In a room with 10 people, THERE WOULD NOT, STATISTICALLY, BE ANYONE THAT APPLIED TO (They’d be in the cafeteria, or elsewhere in the building), meaning that it still only applies to about 3 of a 100 women you’d meet.

    You know what?

    Even pre-supposing the world just works like that, and 3 % of the woman you meet (except of course, it really isn’t 3 % of women, it’s 3 % of women, world wide, clustered around demographic hotspots, so it’s really more like 0.0003 of women you meet), raping people is still not okay.
    It doesn’t make it any better! It just means that when you do date rape someone, the odds of them falling in love with you are not, at all, in any way, in your favor.

    That’s what annoys me about stuff like “This Story Shows” (Twillight, 50 shades of grey, savage love). Even with *millions* of readers, there’s so many people in the world it’s only a drop in the ocean, and even being that drop, it doesn’t mean you’re allowed to rape anyone.
    Grr!

  18. Last time I went shopping for clothes since I needed to update my wardrobe, I spent $800. That will last me about four to six months depending on the weather.

    I do have some pieces that last for several years but tops generally have to be changed frequently, bottoms can be stretched if you wear mostly black.

    You ought to try my wardrobe strategy. I call it “Long-Term Unemployed Chic.” I never buy clothes, ever, and every day I get slightly more lenient about stains and holes. And washing. And getting dressed, period.

    …I need a job.

  19. You ought to try my wardrobe strategy. I call it “Long-Term Unemployed Chic.” I never buy clothes, ever, and every day I get slightly more lenient about stains and holes. And washing. And getting dressed, period.

    …I need a job.

    :( Sorry to hear that. If you were in AZ I could give you some of the business clothes that I no longer wear.

  20. From my experience, even the ones that say that they aren’t Feminists, are in fact Feminists to a significant degree, in which case they are lying outright claiming that they do not support Feminism

    Mind you, every woman, even the ones that pick up the tab, want Men to do so, and when the Man does not, they start looking out for one that does, surreptitiously

    So, you never go out on a second dates?

  21. If you were in AZ I could give you some of the business clothes that I no longer wear.

    Thanks, but not to worry, I have that one interview outfit that’s in great condition because I never wear it.

  22. thebionicmommy

    You ought to try my wardrobe strategy. I call it “Long-Term Unemployed Chic.” I never buy clothes, ever, and every day I get slightly more lenient about stains and holes. And washing. And getting dressed, period.

    I’m sorry, katz. I hope you find the perfect job soon. It’s a tough job market so don’t be hard on yourself.

    about clothes,

    One way I add to my wardrobe without spending much is by going to goodwill and garage sales. I can get a $2 pair of jeans now and then, and because they are new to me, I can wear something different, which is fun. And I understand the trouble of stains. I’ve had a lot of practice cleaning stains from my kids getting muddy or spilling Kool Aid and Spaghetti O’s. I’ve also learned the basics of mending lately to save clothes after they’ve gotten tears or lost buttons, so that helps a lot, too.

    Also, I apologize if I’m giving unwanted advice on clothes. If you’re happier just having someone listen without adding advice, I can do that, too.

  23. Ah, katz, if I had a job to give you, I’d give it to you. Hugs if you want ‘em.

  24. thebionicmommy

    I found a really sexist meme on quickmeme called good girl Gina and it had some really horrible statements about dates and sex, too. The meme is supposed to show the ideal woman for the men making the memes.

    Some of them were:

    Pays her own way on date. Doesn’t use that as an excuse not to put out.
    Does something sexual. Doesn’t expect anything in return.
    Knows her period will start during next date. Reschedules date.

    There are hundreds more, and many of them are even worse. The basic idea of it is that for straight couples, women offer sex and cooking in exchange for money. It’s like the people making those memes are fans of Warren Farrell.

  25. becausescience

    Using Farrell’s own bizarre sales analogy from the other article about him, he obviously must think that if a potential client agrees to meet with a salesperson, but then doesn’t buy the product, then the client has committed fraud.

  26. @bionicmommy

    Omigod, those are despicable

    A) Excuse to put out? WTF likee it’s an obligation.

    Actually, all of those examples seemed like humongous entitlement, but of course if you say that it’s misandry. X|

  27. Can I just register here how much I hate the phrase “put out”?

    Also, on my first dates, I like to give headphones.

  28. thebionicmommy

    Fade, there were some that were way worse than the examples I wrote. In case anyone checks out that good girl Gina meme, I will say it needs a huge trigger warning, though, for rape apologism and misogyny.

  29. One way I add to my wardrobe without spending much is by going to goodwill and garage sales. I can get a $2 pair of jeans now and then, and because they are new to me, I can wear something different, which is fun.

    Is it fucking awesome? (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

    I love thrift stores. I usually buy everything there except socks, underwear, bras, and shoes. It’s not so much a lack of money as lack of motivation, since most days I never make it out of the house.

    K, enough whining. Like half the people here are unemployed or underemployed and I am in a stable situation so whatever.

  30. CassandraSays

    RE Adam

    Random words capitalized for emphasis – the most consistent MRA tell. Also the fact that the entire comment is petulant nonsense.

    And I think the worst kind of dangerous person is the type who think that pleasure, when getting it is dependent on other people, is a right.

    What’s scary and dangerous about those people is that they honestly don’t seem to understand that it’s not possible to have a right to pleasure that involves someone else’s body. When they make it clear, as they often do, that they see women-the-people as an obstacle that has been unfairly inserted between them and the vagina/T&A that they deserve access to, and feminists as evil because we keep pointing out that women are people and thus it’s not possible to have a right to do things to their bodies, then they may as well draw a hazard symbol on their foreheads with a sharpie.

  31. thebionicmommy

    Is it fucking awesome? (Sorry, couldn’t resist)

    Like Captain America, I understood got that reference! :-)

  32. thebionicmommy

    Dang it, *understood that reference*, not *understood got that reference*

  33. I resisted embedding the video, at least.

  34. CassandraSays

    Pays her own way on date. Doesn’t use that as an excuse not to put out.
    Does something sexual. Doesn’t expect anything in return.
    Knows her period will start during next date. Reschedules date.

    Runs out of batteries in the middle of date. But that’s fine, because she remembered to bring extra in her purse.

    Sorry, whiny manchildren, but anyone you date is going to want something out of the relationship. The “something” may be interesting conversations, physical affection, sex that’s fun for them too, and so on. The word for a partner who has no needs or wishes of their own and exists only to provide you with sex is “fictional”. Or possibly “sex worker”, if you’re being a little more realistic.

  35. becausescience

    These guys don’t actually LIKE women, they just want their vaginas. If you like someone and you invite them out to dinner on you and you spend a couple of hours hanging out and you don’t end up in bed together, how is that a loss? How does that make you a chimp?

    Okay so maybe you wanted things to go further and they didn’t, but so? How is that even a big deal, let alone traumatic?

  36. becausescience

    That should be chump, not chimp. If you spend a few hours hanging out with someone and you turn into a chimp, that person is obviously some sort of magical wizard.

  37. CassandraSays

    Seriously, if what you want is to buy sex, do that. Sex workers exist. Find one. It’s much more efficient than assuming that any woman you ask out on a date will be willing to exchange sex for food.

    (Except that if you hire a sex worker she may well set some terms, and obviously that’s misandry.)

  38. Thanks, but not to worry, I have that one interview outfit that’s in great condition because I never wear it.

    Oh I am sure. This is for when you are hired as a mega powerful executive and you still have two weeks until payday.

    At my current job I had to wait that long before I could get work appropriate clothes. I still dress pretty dowdily as that was always my style however it is much more businesslike.

    Pays her own way on date. Doesn’t use that as an excuse not to put out.

    Wait, does this mean I have to demand my date put out? Because I really am disinclined to do that. Instead can I simply eat ice cream even if he does not?

  39. If you like someone and you invite them out to dinner on you and you spend a couple of hours hanging out and you don’t end up in bed together, how is that a loss? How does that make you a chimp?

    Well, it definitely doesn’t make you a bonobo.

  40. Haven’t read the comments yet, but I wonder if the disgusting Bettina Arndt has read Farrell? She’s very keen on the “mercy sex” thing in marriage too. Only for women, of course, since in her world only women are horrible creatures who say no to men, and men want sex all the time, and are entitled to it.

  41. CassandraSays

    Hmm. During dinner did you throw your food at each other? Any picking fleas out of each other’s hair?

  42. Pro-Equality MRA

    @CassandraSays- That’s a strawman and a complete misrepresentation. There are real political goals in MRA ideology, just like with feminism, and often these goals may be mutually compatible. Which is why, as I’ve said many times, MRAs and feminists complement each other and keep the other from slipping into dogmatism.

    This idea that MRAs are primarily concerned with getting men sex more often is smeary, propagandist nonsense. I’m disappointed to see it here.

  43. CassandraSays

    @ PEMRA

    We don’t care.

  44. thebewilderness

    He is such an enormous mendacious disembodied anus! Marital rape laws were never about happy marriages. They were about the fact that a man could not be prosecuted for raping a woman so long as they were legally married. Period. Split up for a year, ten years, doesn’t matter, can’t prosecute.

    Also too and besides, anyone who views interaction as a transaction is not someone you want to be friends with, yanno?

  45. thebewilderness

    What are these vaunted goals, Pemra? Notes from their boner seems to be major issue with MRA’s as you can clearly see from this post on the writing of one of their designated leaders.

  46. Pro-Equality MRA

    “Seriously, if what you want is to buy sex, do that. Sex workers exist. Find one. It’s much more efficient than assuming that any woman you ask out on a date will be willing to exchange sex for food.”

    Er, you do realize that dates/relationships are supposed to offer more than paid sex, right?

  47. Dear Adam,

    I’m gonna call your bluff here, and claim that you’ve never actually been on a date with a woman before. I base this claim both on your tendency to talk about the way all women think, and on my experience with flesh’n’blood MRAs and PUAs. Without exception, every MRA I’ve met is perenially dateless, and so is every PUA, though the latter are rather pathetically trying to do something about it.

    How about you don’t start with the assumption that all women are lying to you about something, and just go into it with a relaxed “let’s see where this leads” approach?

  48. CassandraSays

    There’s also the fact that he doesn’t seem to be responding to anything that I actually said, but then again, that’s typical for socky.

  49. Er, you do realize that dates/relationships are supposed to offer more than paid sex, right?

    We do but unfortunately it is blazingly obvious that plenty of misogynists do not.

  50. CassandraSays

    Ew, he’s focusing on me again. Anyone have some bug spray handy?

  51. Pro-Equality MRA

    “You ought to try my wardrobe strategy. I call it “Long-Term Unemployed Chic.” I never buy clothes, ever, and every day I get slightly more lenient about stains and holes. And washing. And getting dressed, period.”

    I feel your pain. At least we have time to work on our inner selves, eh? ;)

  52. I have some Vanilla Berry lotion but no bug spray Cassandra.

  53. CassandraSays

    Garlic is supposed to repel mosquitos. I wonder if it works on assholes too.

  54. Pro-Equality MRA

    @CassandraSays- How is addressing you twice “focusing” on you? Sheesh. I’ll refrain in the future, if you don’t want to interact with people on a social message board.

  55. Adam types a LOT like Derick did.

  56. Pro-Equality MRA

    “Notes from their boner seems to be major issue with MRA’s as you can clearly see from this post on the writing of one of their designated leaders.”

    I can’t speak for every single individual MRA on the internet, but MRA sites have coherent political goals. I have serious issues with AVfM, but they’re a political site, not a “notes from Elam’s boner” blog.

  57. CassandraSays

    Everyone note what Pemmy just said? I’m going to hold him to that.

  58. @CassandraSays- How is addressing you twice “focusing” on you? Sheesh. I’ll refrain in the future, if you don’t want to interact with people on a social message board.

    Dude, you’re addressing her again!

  59. PEMRAL, just stop. No one cares what you think.

  60. Adam: Is it now? Are you sure? Why haven’t I met a single Woman who wants to go Dutch, and claims that she is a Feminist, at heart, at least.

    Beats me. In 30 years of dating I’ve met women who want to go dutch, and women who expected to pay.

    I suspect it’s the circles you inhabit.

    Mind you, every woman, even the ones that pick up the tab, want Men to do so,

    Ya don’t say.

    News to me. If so, well I’m not sure what to have expected if I’d paid the tab on some of those dates, because 1: we had a swell time and 2: we had more dates.

    For what it’s worth, you are giving Kreskin a run for his money.

  61. AVfM’s a political site? HAHAHAHAHA. Since when is “fucking their shit up gives me an erection” political?

    And that would be a note from Elam’s boner. Along with that post about fuckmuffins. Shut up, PEMRAL.

  62. CassandraSays

    Remember the theme song? We could rewrite it.

    The time has come to talk about your boner! The time has come to tell everyone all about your erection! Because that’s what political movements are all about.

  63. Er, you do realize that dates/relationships are supposed to offer more than paid sex, right?

    Well yeah, MRA’s also expect a full range of domestic services.

  64. @Cassandra

    Seriously, if what you want is to buy sex, do that. Sex workers exist. Find one. It’s much more efficient than assuming that any woman you ask out on a date will be willing to exchange sex for food.

    There’s also a ridiculously high chance she was trafficked or coerced into sex work. :-( In a perfect world, hiring a sex worker would be the perfect solution to these guys’ problems (and would protect the rest of us from them), but in the world we live in, I’m super uncomfortable suggesting that anyone hire a sex worker.

    @Everyone talking about work/interview clothes: I feel you. I used to collect blouses and skirts over months in anticipation of the day when I eventually got a non-food-related job, only to find they were too small when I finally needed them, or that I had nothing to wear for an interview in high summer/deep winter, or that my shoes were scuffed, etc. While I lament the limited options for self-expression, I’m ultimately relieved that I have to wear scrubs to work, which are provided by the hospital (although scrubs come in a variety of awesome patterns these days). I just rock my mom’s genuine 1970’s rainbow/unicorn bandanna and only have to worry about what to wear on Sunday mornings.

  65. thebewilderness

    I always felt very fortunate back in my dating days that I had uniforms supplied for work and only had to buy at home and dating clothes. The amount women need to spend on work clothes is appalling.

  66. Pro-Equality MRA

    Ok, I’m sure there are a few gotcha quotes that you could mine from Elam in particular- he’s not the most restrained guy, and I don’t really think he has much common sense. But the MRM is in fact a political ideology with legitimate political grievances, even if you disagree with them (and I do, on some points). AVFM in particular, likewise.

  67. few gotcha quotes that you could mine from Elam in particular

    That is the first time I have ever seen “few” to mean 2,156,846,132,165,435,130.

  68. CassandraSays

    Yeah, there are all kinds of problems with sex work the way it is now. It’s still a more sensible suggestion than “ask random woman out on date, hope that she’ll be amenable to your paying her for sex with food”. What guys like Farrell are suggesting is that all woman are sex workers, and dinner is how we get paid.

    (We don’t get to set the price, because that would be misandry, and we don’t get to opt out of the assumed arrangement, because that would be “fraud”.)

  69. thebewilderness

    There are real political goals in MRA ideology, just like with feminism, and often these goals may be mutually compatible.

    You stil have not said what those compatible goals are, in your opinion. You have made this claim repeatedly. So SPEAK! What MRA goals to you consider compatible with Feminism.

  70. emilygoddess

    This idea that MRAs are primarily concerned with getting men sex more often is smeary, propagandist nonsense. I’m disappointed to see it here.

    LOL. Do you even go here?

    Er, you do realize that dates/relationships are supposed to offer more than paid sex, right?

    Er, you do realize that we’re responding to the kind of guy who complains that he paid for dinner and didn’t get sex in return, right?

    MRA sites have coherent political goals.

    AVfM, but they’re a political site, not a “notes from Elam’s boner” blog.

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