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Warren Farrell’s notorious comments on date rape: Not any more defensible in context than out of it

WArren Farrell ponders (possibly) the mysteries of consent.

Warren Farrell, possibly pondering the mysteries of consent.

NOTE: This is the second installment of The Myth of Warren Farrell, a continuing series examining Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power, the most influential book in the Men’s Rights canon. You can see the first post here.

Men’s Rights elder Warren Farrell has been accused of being a “rape apologist,” largely because of one now-notorious sentence he wrote in The Myth of Male Power:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting.

This sentence is at least as puzzling as it is disturbing. Calling date rape “exciting” is pretty foul. But what on earth is “date fraud?”

To find out, let’s do what Farrell’s supporters insist we always do with his more troubling remarks: look at it in context to see if it is somehow more defensible – or, at the very least, to see if we can discern what exactly is is he even meant.

Looking at the sentence in context in  The Myth of Male Power, we find that it appears in the midst of a long discussion not only of date rape but also of a number of other dating-related behaviors that Farrell claims traumatize men in the same way date rape traumatizes women. So let’s back up a bit to let him spell out his basic premises — and define what “date fraud” is in the first place:

While the label “date rape” has helped women articulate the most dramatic aspect of dating from women’s perspective, men have no labels to help them articulate the most traumatic aspects of dating from their perspective. Now, of course, the most traumatic aspect is the possibility of being accused of date rape by a woman to whom he thought he was making love. If men did label the worst aspects of the traditional male role, though, they might label them “date robbery,” “date rejection,” “date responsibility,” “date fraud,” and “date lying.” (p.313, The Myth of Male Power, 1993 hardcover edition)

He proceeds from here to some Men’s Rights subreddit-style man-whinging:

The worst aspect of dating from the perspective of many men is how dating can feel to a man like robbery by social custom – the social custom of him taking money out of his pocket, giving it to her, and calling it a date. To a young man, the worst dates feel like being robbed and rejected. Boys risk death to avoid rejection (e.g., by joining the Army).(p. 314)

I think Farrell is confusing “the Army” with “the French Foreign Legion” and real life with Laurel and Hardy movies.

Evenings of paying to be rejected can feel like a male version of date rape. (p. 314)

Yep. Paying for a woman’s dinner and having a pleasant conversation with her, only to have her refuse to have sex with you, is in Farrell’s mind just like being raped.

Having dealt with date robbery and rejection, Farrell  moves on to date fraud and lying:

If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his. (P 314)

Uh, Dr. Farrell, I’m pretty sure that women are still allowed to say no to sex even if they are kissing a man. Either partner, of whatever gender, is allowed to stop sexual activity at whatever point they want to, for whatever reason they want to. That how consent works.

And now we come to Farrell’s famous quote:

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. (pp. 314-315)

It still doesn’t make sense to me, but that combination of “date rape” and “exciting” makes me queasy.

Perhaps the rest of Farrell’s paragraph will help to elucidate what he means:

Somehow, women’s romance novels are not titled He Stopped When I Said “No”. They are, though, titled Sweet Savage Love, in which the woman rejects the hand of her gentler lover who saves her from the rapist and marries the man who repeatedly and savagely rapes her. It is this “marry the rapist” theme that not only turned Sweet Savage Love into a best-seller but also into one of women’s most enduring romance novels. (p. 315) 

Oh, so because some women enjoy fictionalized rape fantasies, real non-fictional date rape is therefore “exciting?”

Farrell follows this up, confusingly, with two sentences that utterly contradict one another:

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”  He might just be trying to become her fantasy. (p. 315)

Three things. First: If the “conflict” is as Farrell sketched it out above — a woman saying “that’s far enough for now,” while kissing with “tongues still touching” — there is no conflict. Kissing, with tongues or without, does not give a man permission to put his penis in a woman. Reciprocal kissing gives you permission for … reciprocal kissing.

Second: when the alleged nonverbal “yeses” and the verbal “noes” conflict – or you think they do – here’s an idea: RESPECT THE VERBAL NOES. Err on the side of NOT-RAPE. If she says no, assume she means no, until she uses ACTUAL WORDS to say yes. Strange but true: woman can actually USE HUMAN LANGUAGE to express what they want. If a guy doesn’t respect a woman’s verbal “noes” because he thinks — or pretends to himself — that she’s saying “yes” with her body, how exactly can the law distinguish this from rape?

“Your honor, it’s true she told me no, but her elbows were saying “yes.””

Also: if your gal and you want to play out “nonconsensual” fantasies, that’s fine; lots of people do that — consensually. You just need to work out the basic rules and safewords in advance. There are entire subcultures of people devoted to this who will be happy to fill you in on the details. Really. They are very chatty.

Third: Do you all find it as creepy as I do that Farrell tends to sketch out these various rapey scenarios in the steamy prose of a second-rate romance novelist?

If you’re an MRA convinced I’m somehow misquoting Farrell here, here’s a screencap of most of the passages I just quoted which someone on the Men’s Rights subreddit helpfully posted some time ago. Or you could get hold of Farrell’s book and check for yourself.

Oh, but I’m not done yet. I’ve got even more context to provide.

Farrell tries his best to draw some sort of distinction between date rape and stranger-with-a-knife-rape:

We often hear, “Rape is rape, right?” No. A stranger forcing himself on a woman at knife point is different from a man and woman having sex while drunk and having regrets the morning. What is different? When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance. (p. 315)

So going on a date with someone and ostensibly making a “choice to explore sexual possibilities” means that it’s ok for people to force sex on you against your will later in the evening? Uh, Dr. Farrell, how exactly is this not rape? How does the fact that two people went to a movie beforehand turn coerced sex into not-real-rape?

You’ll have to ask Dr. Farrell that question, as his explanation makes no sense whatsoever to me.

A few pages down the road, Farrell warns about the dangers of “date rape” legislation in hyperbolic terms, arguing, bizarrely, that it will lead to more rape.

If the law tries to legislate our “yeses” and “noes” it will produce “the straitjacket generation” – a generation afraid to flirt, fearful of finding its love notes in a court suit. Date rape legislation will force suitors and courting to give way to courts and suing.

The empowerment of women lies not in the protection of females from date rape, but in resocializing both sexes to share date initiative taking and date paying so that both date rape and date fraud are minimized. We cannot end date rape by calling men “wimps” when they don’t initiate quickly enough, “rapists” when they do it too quickly, and “jerks” when they do it badly. If we increase the performance pressure only for men, we will reinforce men’s need to objectify women – which will lead to more rape. Men will be our rapists as long as men are our initiators.…

Laws on date rape create a climate of date hate. (p.340)

I don’t even know where to start with all that. That is just one giant steaming heap of nonsense. To put it as politely as I can.

Oh, in case you’re wondering, Farrell also thinks that a lot of  what’s called spousal rape is really “mercy sex,” because people who are married to one another often have sex when they don’t want to — and that’s the way it should be, since “all good relationships require ‘giving in,’ especially when our partner feels strongly.” Sex you don’t want is just part of what makes a happy marriage happy!

The Ms. survey can call it a rape; a relationship counselor will call it a relationship.

Spousal rape legislation is blackmail waiting to happen. (p. 338)

So, does putting Farrell’s “we called it exciting” quote in context transform it into something innocent and understandable and not-rapey?

I think it’s pretty clear that the answer is no.

But not everyone agrees with me on that. When someone on the Man’s Rights subreddit recently provided some of the context for Farrell’s quote, the assembled Men’s Righsters mostly thought what he was saying sounded fine to them, arguing that he brings up some very legitimate points, attacking feminists for quote mining, suggesting that “feminists don’t reality” and that the Feminist machine slanders anyone who gets in their way. Heck, one fellow even suggested that he had gotten the distinct impression that Feminists want to create more instances of “rape-by-misunderstanding” in order to punish men. Oh, and then one of them attacked my previous post on Farrell’s disturbing views on incest.

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Posted on May 3, 2013, in antifeminism, consent is hard, imaginary oppression, mansplaining, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, nice guys, oppressed men, playing the victim, rape, rape culture, reddit, the myth of warren farrell, warren farrell and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 1,058 Comments.

  1. @eurosaba

    ” I thought power would moderate him”

    Hahhahahhaha

    Hhahahhahhahahhahaha

    No. If someone is a shitty person, ffs why would you want to vote for him? Because in theory he might get marginally less shitty?

  2. …power would moderate him…

    This is the second time you’ve used this phrase. I’m morbidly curious, is that a thing? Do people actually say that? Because it sounds so very much like… not so much.

  3. Power rarely moderates a person. C’mon Euro Creep, you’re a big ol’ fascist, you should know that.

  4. CassandraSays

    New cliche – “Absolute power improves the character, absolutely!”.

  5. 7:45pm, 7:46pm and 7:49pm postings are slanderous fantasies about my putative conduct in meatspace.

  6. Marie,
    In the bars you are not in, you do not accept drinks from straight men you have no interest in. Got it. Aunt. Wheels. Streetcar?

    I’ma cosign the hell out of this advice because it always works for me! Assuming I want to be called a stuck-up bitch. Because that’s always awesome.

  7. Slander? Not even close.

  8. CassandraSays

    Person with no good name to speak of thinks it’s being defamed. Everyone else laughs.

  9. @cassandrasays

    “It’s pretty easy, with some experience under your belt, to tell who’s going to do that. EuroCreeper reeks of it.”

    Sadly I does not have the actual experience, just theory ^_^

    @eurocreeper

    “Marie,
    In the bars you are not in, you do not accept drinks from straight men you have no interest in. Got it. Aunt. Wheels. Streetcar?”

    Hey there little fucker. Grow ups use their words, try saying ‘I am interested in you and would like to see where things go’, you fucking fucker. And when women reject offers we get that shit like ‘why don’t you give Him a chance?’ Or ‘c’mon it’s just a drink’. There is no way to win.

    Got it, Sweet cakes?

  10. CassandraSays

    What often actually happens.

    “Would you like a drink?”

    “No thanks, I’m good.”

    “Who do you think you are? You think you’re too good for me?”

  11. CassandraSays

    @ Marie

    But see, even you’re picking up on the eau de creeper. Now imagine how he smells to those of us who’ve had lots of experience.

  12. People who should have known better used it all the time to try to sell Israelis on direct negotiations with Hamas. And from a utilitarian perspective, there may very well be a reason (in terms of harm reduction) to negotiate with a possibly absolutist, existential opponent about conflict-management. There is always a possible quid-pro-quo to improve living conditions, medical care, cease-fires, etc. Both sides have something the other wants while waiting for the ground to swallow the other side.

  13. Also eurosaba, I cannot tell which men are straight just by looking at them.
    Also also, I have zeros sexual interest in men, you fucking twit, but seeing as homophobia is a thing, I’m not just going to say ‘nopes, I is lesbian’.

  14. *^tothose theoretical men.

  15. “God, I’m sorry, are you too good for my $8.00 fucking girly drink? I didn’t realize I was talking to the fucking queen. Anyway don’t flatter yourself, I was just being polite.”

  16. CassandraSays

    Notice the thread for trolls who want to deliver speeches about their off-topic obsessions linked on the sidebar? Use it.

  17. @cassandrasays

    “But see, even you’re picking up on the eau de creeper. Now imagine how he smells to those of us who’ve had lots of experience.”

    Beyond horrible, I’m guessing ^_^

    @eurosaba

    What’s with the sudden topic switch? I’m getting whiplash from how quick you moved the goal posts*

    *did I use that phrase correctly?

  18. CassandraSays

    A friend and I once tried “we’re lesbians, go away”. The response was “it’s OK, I don’t mind” and an attempt to grab both of us.

  19. Wow, Eurosabra just opened up a lot for me. He’s a Palestinian? on the Israel/palestine issue? Didn’t we already go all over all of this?

  20. Marie@7.58pm, CassandraSays@7.59pm

    Oh, yeah, the bar scene is…broken. As are men, I guess.

  21. CassandraSays

    Self-awareness? What’s that?

  22. Howardbann1ster asked if the idea that “power moderates” political actors was A Thing. So I gave a concrete example.

  23. “A friend and I once tried “we’re lesbians, go away”. The response was “it’s OK, I don’t mind” and an attempt to grab both of us.”

    Ew. I’m so glad there are non troll men posters here, other wise my faith in men would be beyond pemra lowered by this point ^_^ yes eurosaba, not all men are creepy jerks, just you and your ilk.

  24. CassandraSays

    @ Marie

    If it helps, most of my guy friends found that incident as creepy and pathetic as I did.

  25. @eurosaba

    Yes the bar scene is broken. Not men. Creepy men are jerks, but that doesn’t make them broken.

  26. Marie,
    In the bars you are not in, you do not accept drinks from straight men you have no interest in. Got it. Aunt. Wheels. Streetcar?

    Um…

    Ummmm….

    Whaaaaaaa?

    What does this mean?

  27. CassandraSays

    The bar scene isn’t all that broken, actually. There are a few men who refuse to accept the fact that you can’t force someone to be interested in you, and they make life miserable for everyone else if they’re allowed to. But most people in bars are nice enough.

  28. @cassandrasays

    That’s good to know :/ gah, I feel like I complain about men here too often (considering the feelings of other posters, I don’t give two shits whether the trolls are offended). Probably because I have a rather small brain mouth filter^_^ anyway, you guys tell me if I’m bugging you…

  29. Isn’t it “date fraud” for you to be in straight bars without identifying T-Shirts? Aren’t you defrauding poor innocent straight men of the time it takes to find out you’re Sapphically Inclined?/sarc.
    @8.03pm umm yeah that’s straight out of the playbook. And horrible.

  30. “But most people in bars are nice enough.”

    Also good to know ^_^ I’ve never been solo In a bar, only gone with family once or twice*, so I wouldn’t know

    *it was like a restaurant bar? Only one I’ve been in, so I don’t have any comparison.

  31. CassandraSays

    I’ve actually met some awesome people, of both sexes, in bars. Some people will even attempt to rescue strangers from creepers! It really is just a small number of jerks who’re the problem, and they take advantage of the good manners of others (plus inertia and the fear of embarrassment) to get away with creeping.

  32. Omg, Eurosabra, I cannot imagine why lesbians would not mention the fact that they’re lesbians in this homophobic society. Really, think of the poor straight menz’s boners

    Also, what play book?

  33. I bet you really do believe in “date fraud,” EuroCreep.

  34. @eurosaba

    The sad thing is, if you had not put the sarcasm disclaimer I would have no idea you were being sarcastic. That is how you sound to me all the time. FYI.

  35. Can you imagine? Women, daring to exist, without giving men the posibility of bonerpleasing

    This is just as bad as the wage gap and date rape combined

  36. CassandraSays

    Also, we weren’t even lesbians! I mean, we’re both bi, but we both fuck men. She was just trying to get the creeper to leave me along.

    (Word of advice – don’t try that particular method of getting rid of creeps. It doesn’t work.)

  37. Not pleasing a boner is MegaMisandry. Worst thing ever.

  38. Isn’t it “date fraud” for you to be in straight bars without identifying T-Shirts? Aren’t you defrauding poor innocent straight men of the time it takes to find out you’re Sapphically Inclined?/sarc.
    @8.03pm umm yeah that’s straight out of the playbook. And horrible.

    Eurosabra in a nutshell. Just enough awareness to understand what makes the date fraud thing silly and offensive, just enough to realize how horrible it is to push the deal on lesbians.

    Not QUITE enough self-awareness to realize that ALL THE REST OF HIS SCHTICK IS TERRIBLE TOO.

  39. okay, somehow I missed that the date fraud thing was sarcasm… still does not improve the rest

    The rest does explain why I thought it wasn’t sarcasm, though

  40. Marie:

    This is why even if I did go to bars I wouldn’t accept drinks. Because you fuckers think we,owe you time. AND once you’re talking to a man in a bar without spitting in his face, then clearly you were just leading him on, right? ::barfs:: you fuckers have so many different excuses for why you think women owe you.

    QF bloody T.

  41. hellkell @8.14pm

    Not really, but my chronic illness (Arooooo!) means that actually going on a date is a more significant investment physically than for a normally-healthy person, and the expense plus recovery time means that there is a significant sunk cost+opportunity cost to being wrong about someone’s interest that doesn’t exist for biotypicals. Although perhaps someone might be flattered by hearing after a successful date that I was incapable of moving for most of the following day. The local fibromyalgia sufferers may be able to relate.

  42. CassandraSays

    I only accept drinks if I think I would be interested in buying the next round myself. Which means I refuse drinks a lot.

    Most people understand this as the “not interested” signal and go away, but wow, when the pouting happens it’s epic.

  43. This is OT, but eurosaba is creepy and tedious so I hope no one minds:

    I’ve been doodling, and I erased half my pic thinking I could draw it much better but I really can’t and now I has a sad.

    /artist angst.

  44. Maybe it’s an Aunt Sally reference? “You’re setting me up to fail”. It’s a bit obtuse, but useful.

    Could be it’s a reference to the old idea of an aunt in a sidecar giving directions to someone driving (at the wheels), but giving them poorly. I think the original story is something like:

    “Woah! Watch where you’re going” Aunt Sally had a tinge of panic at the edge of her voice. She had good reason to. Fast Jones, the driver, had just almost performed a dreadful mistake. Something that could have slammed both of them straight into the gutter”
    “What? What?!” Fast Jones shot back, one hand cooly resting, the other still gripping his Wheel.

    “You don’t do that, it’s not right!”
    “Look, who’s the one in the seat here? Me or you?”
    “You are, but I’m just giving advice”
    “Yeah, but I am in the drivers seat, kindly keep your comments to yourself until you’re the one taking charge”
    “But you were just about to buy her a drink, you don’t do that!” Sally finally blurted out, furious.

    The petite, 10 / 10 blonde bombshell next to the bar blinked.

    “Excuse me?” she said

    “Look, my Aunt Sally didn’t mean anything by that, I am not trying to trick you into paying me in politeness when I offer you a drink, but incidentally, would you like a drink? The Wheels are really good in this joint” Fast Jones offered his best smirk

    “I… I have to go meet some friends, actually. But thank you, it’s very kind of you” The amazing, gorgeous women turned to walk away and, somewhere off to the side, a jukebox sputtered in the darkness of the bodega and started churning out the sound of an angelic choir.

    Aunt Sally jumped in.

    “Hey, hey, MIss, you a lesbian or something?”

    The obviously swedish swimsuit model george blonde stopped in her tracks.

    “What? I mean, yeah, I am… I’m actually meeting my quote-unquote friends, so…”

    Fast Jones saw his opening, even if it had been provide by Aunt Sally in the sidecar

    “Hey, that’s cool. I don’t mind, I dig me some beautiful girls. Maybe they want some Wheels too?”

    “That’s very nice of you, but I’m afraid we’re just not into that sort of thing tonight. Monday is paper cutting night, see?”

    Detected at his rejection, and feeling neglected by the universe, Fast Jones hung his head as Aunt Sally made tut tut sounds.

    “… But here’s my number, and you can call on Thursday?”

    Four eyes blinked, and only in part because of the smokey interior.
    Curvise, elegant script read: “B. Omb, Shell Excecutive / Relationship Therapist. Specializing in unresolved familial matters and offshore drilling!”

  45. (Arooooo) meaning “I have lupus” NOT “I am a werewolf.” Werewolves get SO MUCH play, though.

  46. “Sapphically Inclined”

    That’s a rather odd way to call someone a lesbian. =S

  47. According to House, it’s never lupus.

  48. I like it, though. Good phrasing.
    And no, werewolves get sadly little. Just think of Teen Wolf or Twillight. It’s depressing for these fury folk not to fornicate as much as they’d like.

  49. Stop playing Sad Sack, go away.

  50. Marie: It happens :/

    The great thing about digital art is that you can always keep one version and then make a copy and fiddle with it. But it’s awfully hard to doodle that way (for me).

  51. @8.23pm
    Odd but still polite, right? I’m Israeli remember, so when I look for slang I find all sorts of things and I have to NOT use the ones that are derogatory.

  52. Well, this IS the moment in the EuroCreep Show where he goes for sympathy. Which he can find between shit and syphilis in the dictionary as far as I’m concerned.

  53. How to survive in a man approaching you in a bar in the patriarchy (a woman’s guide)

    1) Does the man buy you a drink?
    a) yes (proceed to 2)
    b) No (proceed to 3)

    2) Do you like his drink?
    a) yes (proceed to 4)
    b) no (proceed to 5)

    3) Do you want to talk to him?
    a) yes (talk to him) (go to 6)
    b) No. You came here with friends/ he’s just not interesting (go to 7)

    4) You drink his drink. Do you talk to him?
    a) Yes (go to 6)
    b) no, you go back to your friends/your harry potter novel/your ipad (go to 7)

    5) do you drink the drink anyway?
    a) yes (go back to 4)
    b) no BITCH

    6) You have a) a good time and keep talking (go to 8) or b) a b) and okay time (go to 9)

    7) Man: WAAAAAAHHHH You’re ignoring me after I bought you that drink!!! BITCH!

    8) You are either going to go home with him (SLUT) or go home by yourself (COCK TEASE)

    9) You turn to leave and the man says YOU LEAD ME ON

    This is my first time making one of these, so I don’t know if it worked like it was supposed to or not. ;p

  54. Marie – “I’ve been doodling, and I erased half my pic thinking I could draw it much better but I really can’t and now I has a sad.”

    Sympathy! Happened a lot when I used to draw. Or even more annoying, it looked great in pencil and I fucked it up majorly when doing the inkwork. :(

    Another reason I like doing all my stuff with photos now. CTRL Z forever!

  55. CassandraSays

    @ hellkell

    Now every time he comments I’m going to hear it in the voice of the Cryptkeeper.

  56. EuorCreep: It doesn’t matter if you’re polite, you’re still a creepy asshole who needs to fuck off.

  57. Yanno, not even unrepentant shitheads who have only very miniscule amounts of empathy in them don’t deserve lupus.

    But you’re still an unrepentant repellent shithead who expects a cookie for not using a slur to refer to lesbians.

  58. 10)It’s an elegant web of interlocking Catch-22s. Brilliant.

  59. Cassandra: The Cryptkeeper could at least be funny intentionally sometimes.

  60. CassandraSays

    I’m pretty sure that most people who have lupus would agree that it’s not a get out of being identified as a creeper free card.

  61. No cookie, just checking that the term was the okay one to use if I wanted to be a little bit literary. I found a lot that were not.

  62. The local fibromyalgia sufferers may be able to relate.

    Um, we get that things take more energy than normal on chronic pain, but that doesn’t mean you can try to use politeness to force people to pay attention to you.

  63. @katz

    “The great thing about digital art is that you can always keep one version and then make a copy and fiddle with it. But it’s awfully hard to doodle that way (for me).”

    For digital art I just do tweaks in a new layer to see if I like em :) but alas I cannot because my computer is DEEEEAAAADDDD!!!!!!! /more artist angst :p

    @kittehs

    “Sympathy! Happened a lot when I used to draw. Or even more annoying, it looked great in pencil and I fucked it up majorly when doing the inkwork. ”

    Ouch. That happened to me enough when I was trying to learn with inks I gave up on them forever^_^ and control z is the bestest.

  64. CassandraSays

    The Cryptkeeper attained a level of cool that EuroCreeper can only wistfully aspire too.

  65. 10)It’s an elegant web of interlocking Catch-22s. Brilliant.

    Then you understand the patriarchy.

  66. CassandraSays

    Actually, can I offer a bit of advice? If you don’t want to talk to the guy, don’t accept the drink. Not even if it looks tasty. Trust me, you’ll be doing yourself a favor in the long run.

  67. Oh, right, I forgot your computer was dead! I guess that makes this a great time to learn to ink?

    (Seriously, for years I thought I didn’t need to learn to ink, but once I learned it became totally indispensable.)

  68. Right, but this isn’t “So you went on a date and it didn’t pan out, you’re out a little money, time, and effort, so what?” This is high stakes, because eventually I’m going to run out of health and time, and sooner rather than later, and possibly although FSM forbid much sooner than a normal person. I haven’t actually replied to “No” with “Bzzt. Wrong answer, try again” as one snarky PUA does, but sometimes that’s how it feels.

  69. EuroCreep: ever think it’s your shit Karma as to why you’re alone? Maybe if you looked at women as people…

  70. CassandraSays

    With all due respect, that’s not the problem of some stranger who you just met at a bar.

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