The Myth of Warren Farrell: Farrell on Rape, Part One
No book has had more influence over the Men’s Rights movement than Warren Farrell’s The Myth of Male Power. Published in 1993, in the heyday of the early 90s antifeminist backlash, it set the agenda for the Men’s Rights movement as it’s developed over the last two decades. He’s the one who came up with the notions of “male disposability” and the “death professions.” He’s the one who got MRAs fixated on the issue of draft registration.
Indeed, so pervasive has his influence been that if you see an MRA making a dumb argument anywhere on the Internet, the chances are probably more than 50-50 that it originated in the pages of Farrell’s book. Despite its age, and its eccentricity, The Myth of Male Power is still the first book recommended to MRA newbies in the sidebar of the Men’s Rights subreddit, the most active MRA hangout online.
It’s a book that deserves a lot more attention than I have been giving it on this blog. Sure, I’ve written about Farrell’s strange and creepy notions about incest, as set forth in a notorious interview in Penthouse in the 1970s, and about his recent attempts to explain away these views. But I haven’t devoted any blog posts to his most influential work. I intend to rectify that now, with a series of posts on some of Farrell’s chief arguments and assertions.
I will start with several posts on Farrell’s views on rape, which has been the subject of much controversy of late. This part will deal with his general statements on rape and sexuality; another will explore in more detail his views on date rape (did he really describe it as “exciting?”); and still another will look at the vast assortment of things he has inappropriately compared to rape.
Pinning down what Farrell “really believes” about rape – and indeed, about almost anything– is difficult. Farrell’s arguments, such as they are, are slippery and evasive. Instead of setting forth a clear argument about rape, Farrell instead provides us with a series of jumbled metaphors and strange comparisons. Instead of trying to summarize them – many of them defy summary — let’s just go through them one by one.
Farrell supporters will likely suggest that these quotes are taken “out of context,” to which I can only say: Check his book to see for yourself. None of his troubling quotes are any less troubling, or for that matter any clearer, in context, and many don’t have much of a context. Farrell writes in a rambling, free-associational style, and many of the “arguments” he makes in the following quotes seem to come from out of the blue, and are never developed further (though some, as you will see, are referenced again in later quotes).
Page numbers given are from the 1993 hardcover edition of The Myth of Male Power.
All that out of the way, let’s jump right in:
Near the start of his book , Farrell sets the tone for what will come by suggesting that men suffer as much sexual trauma from women’s mixed signals as women do from rape:
Feminism has taught women to sue men for sexual harassment or date rape when men initiate with the wrong person or with the wrong timing; no one has taught men to sue women for sexual trauma for saying “yes,” then “no,” then “yes.” … Men [are] still expected to initiate, but now, if they [do] it badly, they could go to jail. (p. 16)
Here, he elaborates on the notion that rape is a matter of bad timing, of “tak[ing] risks too quickly.”
In the past, both sexes were anxious about sex and pregnancy. Now the pill minimizes her anxiety and condoms increase his. Now the pimple faced boy must still risk rejection while also overcoming his own fear of herpes and AIDS and reassuring her there is nothing to fear. He must still do the sexual risk-taking, but now he can be put in jail if he takes risks too quickly or be called a wimp if he doesn’t take them quickly enough . (p. 168)
Here, Farrell falls back on the old “rape is misunderstanding” canard, and somehow manages to compare sexual activity –- from kissing up to and including rape — to eating a bag of potato chips.
It is also possible for a woman to go back to a man’s room, tell him she doesn’t want to have intercourse, mean it, start kissing, have intercourse, and then wish she hadn’t in the morning. How? Kissing is like eating potato chips. Before we know it, we’ve gone further than we said we would. (p. 311)
Here, he seems to seriously suggest that juries could do a better job judging rape cases if they were sexually aroused.
The problem with every judgment of sexual behavior is that it is made by people who aren’t being stimulated as they are making the judgment. A jury that sees a woman in a sterile courtroom, asks her what she wanted, and then assumes that anything else she did was the responsibility of the man is insulting not only the woman but the power of sex. (p. 312)
And then he returns to the potato chip metaphor.
A man being sued after a woman has more sex than intended is like Lay’s being sued after someone has more potato chips than intended. In brief, date rape can be a crime, a misunderstanding, or buyer’s remorse. (p. 312)
Farrell repeatedly tries to absolve men of sexual wrongdoing by suggesting that they are literally intoxicated by female beauty.
Sexually, of course, the sexes aren’t equal. It is exactly a woman’s greater sexual power that often makes a man so fearful of being rejected by her that he buys himself drinks to reduce his fear. In essence, her sexual power often leads to him drinking; his sexual power rarely leads to her drinking. If anything is evidence of her power over him, it is his being expected to spend his money to buy her drinks without her reciprocating. …
It is men – far more than women – whose mental capacities are diminished when they are “under the influence” of a beautiful woman. (p. 320)
But Farrell thinks it’s “sexist” – against men – to put men in jail for “selling sex” to intoxicated women:
As long as society tells men to be the salespersons of sex, it is sexist for society to put only men in jail if they sell well. We don’t put other salespersons in jail for buying clients drinks and successfully transforming a “no” into a “maybe” into a “yes.” If the client makes a choice to drink too much and the “yes” turns out to be a bad decision, it is the client who gets fired, not the salesperson. (p. 321)
We’ve only just begun to scratch the surface of Warren Farrell’s equally daft and disturbing views on sex and rape. Stay tuned.
Posted on May 1, 2013, in all about the menz, antifeminism, block that metaphor, creepy, evil sexy ladies, mansplaining, misandry, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, rape, rape culture, reddit, sexual harassment, victim blaming, warren farrell and tagged antifeminism, MRA, rape, warren farrell. Bookmark the permalink. 716 Comments.
Hey kittehserf! Hope you’re having a lovely day. It is freezing here.
Jedi Hugs Maude LL!
I believe it is time for some kitties.
It was really cold this morning here, too, but it’s a beautiful autumn day – we’ve had some corkers lately. Though being weekdays, they’ve just meant we sit grousing at work about being at work. ;)
Mr K wrote a diary entry yesterday! He says Hi, btw.
Hey @Kitteh, my day’s pretty much ended, it being 1.50am here. (Smiley)
How’s your day going? Isn’t everything upside down there? I mean, maybe that’s why you kept spilling your tea the other night. (Note, I am off smilies, but if I weren’t, there would definitely be one here.) (Oh nearly did another one there, no, naughty, no smilies for me.)
You see, my hippy groove is expressed through my smilies. Although I realise that is totally at odds with my feminist collective evil and we all know we’re all uptight and definitely have no sense of humour. I’m totally conflicted man. (Hippy vibe there, although definitely sexist.)
See without the emoticons life is just drab and unfriendly, I is now sad.
(Note, did not use a frowny.)
Oh, bugger, see now the parentheses have totally taken over, poo, poo, poo.
So that’s no emoticons and no parentheses.
But then people might actually understand what I’m trying to say…and then they might realise that I make no sense, wait, is that a paradox?
@kittehserf
Ooh, will go and read that. Say “hi” for me.
Maude LL, all the hugs, if you want them. I’m really getting the vibe from Catwoman of “Hey, I have drunk sex and like it, people should stop talking about it, they’re being mean meanies about MY sex life” – no nuance, like CassandraSaid.
ophelia – “I mean, maybe that’s why you kept spilling your tea the other night. ”
CURSE YOU GRAVITY WHY WHYYYYYY
ArchaeoHolmes – he just did a sort of bow-from-the-shoulders-up* thing backatcha. :)
*sitting down and can’t be bothered standing up
@kittehserf I like that. There should be more courteous bowing – even if it is sitting down.
Hi everyone!
David, I’m so glad you’re taking this bullshit on. The first MRA I ever ran into told me to read The Myth of Male Power. I looked at the wikipedia page instead and found that he thinks unemployment is the male equivalent of rape.
Also, question: what does one do when two of one’s male friends are MRA sympathizers (probably MRAs themselves, but I haven’t seen them self-identify)? I’m not super close to these guys, but one’s a former neighbour and the other is an old high school friend I just recently got back into contact with. I post a lot of feminist stuff to facebook and for the last almost year, both of them have been defending the MRM and been using their talking points. They don’t know each other either, so it’s odd that I know two of them. :/
In better news, though, my sister broke up with her abusive boyfriend for the fourth time, and as it’s been a month or so, I think it’s for good this time. :D
T.W.
@Maude LL, so sorry love, when I posted my silly comment I had not refreshed my screen so did not see your comment, feel like an arse now, sorry.
Anyway, so sorry, I haven’t had the same experience as you, but was sexually abused, I blamed myself for years (still do mostly), you’re very brave to talk about it so openly. I know I’m finding it hard typing this, I’m not brave.
I’m so sorry that that happened to you, I know I’m not expressing it well, but, you know, I do funny mostly, serious not so much.
Anyway, so many hugs and sorry again. Is there a tears emoticon? That would probably be good right now.
Christ that sounds shit, sorry, so bad at this. Please forgive this if it sounds stupid but if you can be so brave then I can at least give it a go.
Hi Alex! That’s good news about your sister. I hope it sticks.
About your MRA infestation, I don’t know. I would block them and cut ‘em off. If they’re just spouting the talking points, I’m not sure that’s any great loss. YMMV.
Alex, hi, and dittoing what hellkell said – fingers crossed for your sister. As to the MRAish friends … can an MRA or sympathiser actually be a genuine friend to a feminist (or any woman not awash with internalised misogyny)? I’d be cutting them out of my life completely, too.
Things I’ve learned today: women=potato chips, rape=wacky misunderstanding, and although sex messes up men’s brains, it’s good for the mental processes of impartial juries.
This book is so educational!
@ Briznecko aww… *heart melting at kitty sounds*
@ kittehserf and opheliamonarch
Thanks for the good words! In all fairness, I’m way over this incident, but it’s symptomatic of the culture. I think it’s important to talk about in order to change the way people view women who: go out/party/have a social life/don’t wear burkas. People who see “but I have good drunk sex” as an argument against that have a blind spot IMO that is more insidious than clear misogynists.
@annabanana
I think the argument is that women are the chip eaters and men are the chip manufacturers. You see, makes sense, right? Right?
He doesn’t think women are objects, but just sex addicts who regret it after.
Cock carousel is so delicious!
If I have friends who are spouting sexist/ racist/ whateverist garbage, I normally ask them why they think that or how they got that idea, and basically try to ask enough questions to get them to challenge themselves. Unfortunately, this doesn’t always work.
Time it worked:
Mom: If you wear something like that, people are going to feel (as in your nipples)
Me: OMFG mom, what?
Mom: I mean, they shouldn’t, but they’d get the wrong idea.
Me: what wrong idea?
Mom: that you’re a prostitute
Me: So people can feel up sex workers without consent?
Mom: No, but they will
me: So somebody who is an asshole possible-sexual-offender might harrass sex workers and the blame lies with him not them.
Mom: okay… I was raised in a different time than you but… blah blah blah, she got what I was saying.
Summarized, of course, due to that conversation being really long.
Time it didn’t work:
Friend: Well, I think it’s because girls are more emotional than boys
Me: Um, why do you think that?
Friend: Well, ask any parent and they’ll say that.
Me: No they won’t
Friend: Because you have so much experience here /sarcasm
Me: your one kid maybe* acting more emotional doesn’t do anything about an entire gender
Friend: Okay, I won’t mention the fact that girls are more emotional than boys around you anymore, sheesh.
*maybe because I hypothesize this is after her sexism goggles.
So, um basically I haven’t got any advice? It might be worth a shot to try to ask how they got x idea that is really questionable buggy and get them to see how sexist it is at its core, but it’d gonna be really long and really draining, especially if you don’t know them that well.
Thanks, hellkell and Kittehserf. :) I lol’d at “MRA infestation”.
Well, cutting off one of them wouldn’t be too hard since he’s moved to Ottawa (I’m in Windsor), but it’s kind of sad. In high school we were fairly close, and then he dropped out and we lost touch, and I was really worried about him for a long time because he suffered from depression, and I didn’t even know if he was still alive. But then just last year, I ran into him working at a coffee shop, and we shot the shit and met up a few times, added each other to facebook, he moved to Ottawa…and now this.
My former neighbour’s a bit more difficult, though, because he’s still my grandparents’ neighbour, and I do run into him in person from time to time.
Both of them claim that misogynists only make up a small part of the MRM, and that “psycho-feminists” are just as bad. Oy. Maybe I’m making it more complicated than it needs to be. lol
@Alex My brother’s an mra living the pua lifestyle. I just don’t ever see him. We’re both happier that way.
How much is the too drunk to consent thing really describing a scenario where the partner is too drunk to process what is happening enough to object? I have seen friends very drunk and while still able to move they couldn’t process and interact in a coherent way with the people around them. They were too drunk to consent in that they wouldn’t object to much being done to them, as they couldn’t coherently process what was being done to them. Luckily the people were friendly.
It seems that it isn’t politically correct to say consent is assumed unless the woman manages to make lack of consent clear. I don’t think it should be the case, but I dislike having to pretend it isn’t the case when we are discussing interactions happening under that assumption.
Fade, I did try something like that with one of them, but he just stopped replying. Now I’m engaged in a long discussion with him, and I hope he’ll see the light. blaaahhh
archaeoholmes, I’m so sorry it turned out that way, though. :( I don’t know what I’d do if my brother got into that shit.
Have I ever mentioned how much I hate the term “politically correct”? ;) But the rest, I mean people do normally assume consent unless someone makes it clear, but like what does that mean? Because if it’s two people making out and they’re both participating, both of them would be consenting because… they’re um, both participating. Yeah. So it’s not like you have to verbalize every single moment.
Um, sorry if this sounds weird i was just confused at this paragraph…
@Alex
Well, good luck if you need it.. XD
Alex: Sometimes high school dude friends are better left unfound. I reconnected with a very good guy friend from high school, only to get a very NIce Guy(TM) FEELINGSMAIL about how he had always been in love with me and I never gave him the time of day, etc. Did I mention he’s married? Yeah. Oh, and a total racist, where do I sign up?
Alex, the guy who’s moved to Ottawa – well, it’s natural enough for people to drop out of contact when they move away, so in this case I wouldn’t fight the process. If he’s turned MRA since you knew him, that says to me he’s changed, and not in a good way.
On the ex neighbour – you run into him from time to time; I’d say let it remain at that level. No need to cultivate a friendship, or be anything more than polite, I’d think. Is he close to your grandfather? Would he be likely to say anything to him? What’s your grandfather like; would he do the “you should be nice to him, blah blah” type of answer, or could you safely say you don’t really want to talk to this guy?
@Alex. Thank you, but it’s okay. There was never much of a relationship to lose.
Fade, what I mean is that most people agree sexual interactions shouldn’t be one person fighting off the other if possible. However, rapists work like that, and when their partner is drunk they are unable to fight them off. Yet we don’t like to acknowledge that doing what you can to someone until they stop you is a common model in some sexual interactions. As interactions shouldn’t work like that we deny they happen and use “too drunk to consent” implying that the victim said yes and was reciprocating when they didn’t mean to. In reality this was also certainly not the case. Not sure if that is clear?
I tend to use “politically correct” to mean a situation where something should be true, but isn’t, yet people don’t want to acknowledge it isn’t true as that would make society unfair. Probably a wrong useage.
Pear_tree, I wondered about the term in this context too. To me it means one thing: right-wing or preserve-the-status-quo types complaining about any suggestion that words can harm, that they can reinforce stereotypes, and that there are words and phrases that should just not be used. To me (YMMV) it doesn’t really apply to society turning a blind eye to how pervasive rape is in sexual encounters/relationships.
I fucking hate “politically correct.” It’s just a way of saying “I know I shouldn’t say this but I’m going to anyway and I want to make it look like you’re uptight and overbearing if you get upset with me.”
Omg, I was talking to my brother and sister today about this. She was showing him some of the MRA posters from the Mra poster extravaganza or w/e a while back, and the manboobz mock ones and letting him guess which ones were real and which ones were parodies, and we were all cracking up. And then shes like “Have I ever mentioned that I appreciate your not sexist?”
Because our family doesn’t really talk about politics much so it’s kind of a coincidence we wound up with similar views. He admitted he did used to have some really sexist views but has since undergone character developement.
Ugh, that guy sounds… blech.
@Pear tree
Okay, now I understand what you mean. XD
ARRGGG!!! Those are my EXACT opinions on it. Which is why I was kind of weirded out when it was used. I get that people can use it and not mean that, but that’s always the first thing that pops in mind when I hear it.
Politically correct is viewed as incorrect by the mainstream. Funny that.
I will avoid using it in future. I don’t know if I like the phrase “too drunk to consent” though, it feels like it is an attempt to dismiss the victim.
I think it comes from living in a state where no white person would feel any need to censor themselves before telling me all black people are criminals but would apologise in case they offended me before saying the right to join a union is not necessarily a dreadful thing, or that the school system may be bias against poor and black students.
“Too drunk to consent” can sound dismissive, because of the stigma attached (far more to women than to men) to drunkenness. It can have a certain “why did you get that drunk?” question lurking in the background. But it also describes the literal situation, if someone’s not able to give meaningful consent.
Ugh, I too can’t stand invocations of “political correctness”. I’ve only ever seen it used by a member of some privileged group or other to justify being offensive toward an underprivileged group.
@hellkell,
Ew! What a creep. ‘~’
@Kittehserf, nah, my grandparents kind of just barely tolerate him. They’re moving soon, but I just don’t want there to be any difficulties for them before that happens.
Mr. Futrelle
Feminists practically own the American Media. Female Propaganda is everywhere. The Feminists are fuelling hatred for Women inside Men.
Has anyone noticed the Snobbish “I am better than you” look on the Women’s faces, in almost every American TV show or Movie?
American media is denigrating men and aggrandizing Women even as I write this.
Why do you conveniently avoid this particular issue?
Well, now that I know what you mean I’m neutral to it. So its not like, bugging me now that I know what you mean.
Idk, but sometimes… people are too drunk to consent. I mean, I don’t really drink alcohol*, but I dont think the only options are “passed out” and “everything’s going fine”… I don’t feel like I’m getting you, and I have lack of lived experience in this area, so what would you suggest as a phrase? Or like… I mean, I don’t know exactly what you mean
*I am under the drinking age.
And many of those people do what you’ve described after they gain clear verbal or non-verbal consent. So I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove here.
I think it does the exact opposite, considering that the experiences of many rape victims are dismissed because of the automatic assumption that they’re just “crying rape.”
Aaliyah, in most sexual situations I have had both parties have been interacting not one lying still, not interacting with the other and not really aware of what is going on or being obviously unhappy but not objecting.
@Political Correctness:
… That’s not what that means. It just means “Using language deemed by most to be as low impact, objectively descriptive as possible”. You’re being politically correct when you try *not* to be an asshole towards someone.
That’s why you find MRA types (And most “types”) rallying against PC attitudes – because, oh my god, in this controlled, Feminist media overmistress society, we can’t just come out and say that gay people are the spawn of the devil.
So, if someone goes: “Hey, to be politically correct, most crimes are commited by the blacks”, you punch that guy in the face.
Metaphorically.
Using words.
Wordpunch the person.
If someone uses it as a a magic invocation to shield words that denigrate and disrespect, trying to hide venom behind polite smiles, then that’s not being politically correct, it’s being an asshole.
And doing it just so they can make you look uptight when you go “Actually, when you call people “functionally retarded”, you are not being nice” is manipulation.
For *instance*:
@Derick is not being politically correct, and also:
I notice in your reply to this blog post that you address David Futrelle as Mr Futrelle, you use words such as a denigrate and aggravate and you even phrase yourself with the nice little slight of “Particular issue”, as if there was an issue at all and if that, this particular one, that you mention, was of the utmost importance.
You’re trying to cloak a malicious view of the media behind some sort of polite veneer, and I’m just going to assume you’re trolling.
So: Please, do kindly, shut up.
I think I dislike it because when I see it used in the papers it is in a situation where with all likelyhood no consent was given to imply that consent was given but the woman was too drunk to remember. The women is then attacked for changing her mind and harming the man and being unreasonable.
Pear_tree, I’m not going to argue about your experiences. All I can say in response is that if such a situation is as prevalent as you claim, it only highlights the importance of affirmative verbal and/or non-verbal consent.
@Everyone
I’ve been wanting to shave a lot of my body hair, but even though I know how to do it, I’m worried about someone finding out that I’ve shaved my legs. Do you think there is any way I can prevent the possibility of someone finding out other than simply wearing full-length pants? Maybe I’m being too anxious, but I’d appreciate some tips if anyone has some to share.
Sadly, the only thing I can think of is asking if you like swimming (swimmers often shave their body hair). I don’t really have any advice…
Pear_tree, I’m losing track of what you’re getting at. Are you talking about consent commonly being taken for granted (or not even thought about) by one person, regardless of what the other thinks – and this being ignored by society? Or are you just saying people have mutually enjoyable sex without it being explicity, verbally consented to by either party? Maybe it’s me, but I’m getting really mixed messages about whether you’re talking about types of consensual sex, or rape.
Full-length pants is the only thing I can think of, Aaliyah. Nothing else is going to stop someone, somewhere seeing your legs. Not that the vast majority of strangers will care, or probably even notice, but I get that it’s your conservative relatives/their nosey acquaintances who are the issue.
I’d like to say Derick’s got to be a poe, but given some of the MRAs we’ve seen, I can’t be too sure.
Um, Pear_tree, I don’t mean to be too much of a grammar-stickler, but your lack of punctuation makes it kind of difficult to understand what you’re saying. I had to read it four times. -_-
Did you mean to say:
“Aaliyah, in most sexual situations I have had, both parties have been interacting. They were not situations where one party was lying still, not interacting with the other and not really aware of what is going on, or being obviously unhappy but not objecting.”
?
What is it with MRAs and their fondness for randomly capitalising words?
@Derick Why do you mras make such general statements? Do you mean women own that section of the world’s media *not* owned by Rupert Murdoch? Just before engage with you, can you explain exactly which influential media women control? I mean exactly – newspapers, television/radio, film production houses.
Uh, Derick, feminist control of everything is not quite the issue you think it is, because IT’S NOT REAL.
… *hehehehehe*
Why do you avoid the issue of women having snobby looks on their faces? I mean, come on, that’s got to be at least as bad as rape apologism, death threats, and abuse-advocacy.
A woman didn’t smile at me once. It was the same thing as spitting on me*
*This was Mr Al, right? I’ve only ever heard you guys describe him, but I could swear someone said he said this.
I guess you’re right, Kitteh.
Fuck, I wish I could just stop having to worry about these things… =[
I’m going to shave anyway, though.
Derick, I’m looking snobbily at you right now. Primarily because I know when and when not to capitalize words.
@Fade,
It was definitely Mr. Al. lol
LOL Female Propaganda? What the fuck is that?
Why do you apply abysmally short-sighted analyses to a gender issue that is already adequately explained by an examination of patriarchal norms?
@Fade, yeah, that was Mr Al. I don’t think I’ve seen the original post where he said that – it was before I was on the site – but he trotted it out a good many times. Same with his lazy eye being so hideous that said women were spitting on him. (Funny, I’ve worked with a bloke with a lazy eye for eight years and never once spat on him.) Oh, and the morning height reference, though I didn’t see the original of that, either.
If Derik’s an Al sock, I can only say he’s not even trying. Boring, boring, boring.
Bo-ring! I want something better than a stupid hit-and-run troll.
If you believe that most woman on television look snobbish, then I think it’s safe to say that the problem lies with you.
American female Propaganda media is forcing Me to Capitalize random words through my Rage!
As long as it’s not TS, Joe, or Brz, I’m all for your suggestion.
@Bee (sorry guys i haven’t figured the quotations yet)
[quote]It’s the exact same situation, Catwoman. It’s just that you believe the rapist’s story, and I … don’t.[/quote]
It is not the same situation.It is a similar scenario.It would be the exact same situation only if besides the drunk part people had the same attitudes, there was the same kind of consent. basically everything else the same. And I don’t believe the “rapist” (only put it in quote because i am talking about my situations, otherwise there sure are rapes and the rapist would not be put in quotation), I believe myself.
This is why I am saying that people should never dismiss the claim of the rape just based on the amount of alcohol consumed. Because all cases should be looked at. I am not sure why you are annoyed by me saying those things. I never said people can’t be raped. I mean should I be annoyed if people say that basically 50% of my sex life was me being raped?
similar situations are not exactly the same. Someone being raped drunk doesn’t mean others were and vice versa. Like for example is it possible to be raped by your own boyfriend when you both are having a quiet day at home without witnesses? Sure. But not all sex between partners is rape, this doesn’t mean one should dismiss claims when it happens. I hope I was clear what I mean here.
@Maude
[quote] understand you mean well, but it’s not all about you, catwoman. If you’re ok with that situation, all the power to you. If you think that having to be a bit more enthusiastic in your consent or being clear of your intentions before you are drunk (with a right to change your mind of course) is too high a price to pay for less people-who-are-not-you getting raped, I think you might want to check your priorities.
Tone is hard to translate in text, so I just want to point out that I am not trashing you. In fact, I hear myself a few years ago in your text. But when you check what is meant by drunk rape, I think you’ll find out that it’s different than what you assumed. In other words, very few people would say that you were raped in the example you just gave.[/quote]
I am sure this is not all about me. Which is why I point out that it is different in all cases. I don’t feel like you are trashing me, I hope you get this from my response as well. But I am just not sure what you mean about me changing my priorities. I don’t decide to have sex before I get drunk. It happens after. Again, don’t take it as me trying to fight you, but I am curious what I would be expected to do, stop having drunk sex when I am not raped or make sure i decide exactly who to sleep with before i start drinking and don’t change my mind. How would this help others? I think the only thing that needs to be changed is social attitude of dismissing rape claims just because someone in that situation wasn’t raped. I don’t think it should be done by me depriving my sex life.
@Briznecko
[quote]I know it’s a litte earlier in the thread, but this need to be highlighted, underlined, bolded, and embroidered. It’s not about YOU (hypothetical/Catwoman) but about changing the overall dynamic that automatically believes the rapist. Remember the NY cops who raped a woman they were escorting home? They were aquitted because she was drunk.[/quote]
And I don’t think I ever said it should be like that. But again, I am curious, what should be done then in your opinion. This dynamic should change, but does it have to be done by telling women who had sex when very drunk and feel it was not rape that they are insensitive (or by pretend that they don’t exist)? (my tone is also not being harsh with you here, just a genuine question)
@CassandraSays
[quote]Nuance, it’s a thing you might want to look into! Also you might want to cool it with the pronouncements about what amount of alcohol consumption renders people tipsy versus plastered, given that alcohol tolerance varies widely between individuals.[/quote]
nuance has different meanings if we talk about variety of situation i think you agree with me? And the second part is minor detail. i was describing a level of intoxication. i know i am the first one to get drunk off my friends from the beers but i someone gets drunk from a glass of wine ton the point that they may forget the next day what happened, then this is applies to that person as well of course.
@Viscaria
[quote]Wildly insensitive choice of first comment :-/. Have a care for anyone reading this who might have been raped while drunk and is now reading the same apologetics for it that they receive from all sorts of sources[/quote]
[quote]Which is not to say that no one can consent while drunk. Just that the rape of drunk people is conflated — deliberately — with consensual drunk sex all the time, and when you talk about feminists considering “all drunk sex rape,” you’re doing it too.[/quote]
How am i being apologetic??? By saying that one can have consent? that doesn’t mean i am saying there is always one (which makes it rape).
Lol, how is me saying that saying that not all drunk sex is rapethe same as sayng that it never is??
well, just to be sensitive:
all sex i had was rape. when drunk, when i hooked up with someone in the bar and went to his place, when my boyfriend woke me in the morning doing…stuff…etc.
Well, not really in my cases. But since all those scenarios can involve rape in many situations just to be sensitive i will pretend that this is always the case for me and everyoe else.
@Carleyblue and @Marie
Thanks, I think you understood what I said exactly
@freemage
Thank you, great comment,I strongly agree and like it.
@hellkell
[quote]Catwoman might want to lurk more.[/quote]
lol, i am sure i will be forced to now, thats life. i am even the “crazy” vegan/ara who managed to be permanently banned from the biggest veggie forum online, i guess my online self is worse than i think.
But I just want to say @David, thank you for this beautiful blog collection, I love it and I will continue reading banned or not. It always makes my day :)
I think that in society “too drunk to consent” is used to imply a misunderstanding while in reality rapists behave in a malicious way, using their partners’ inability to fight them off. The rapist uses the fact that we don’t like to admit that we expect the victim to object, and that if the victim doesn’t object the encounter is considered consensual.
Sorry if I was unclear, I am tired tonight. I also can’t use commas.
We snobby feminists have clearly infiltrated the dog training world as well.
How very dare you avoid the issue, the extremely important issue, of the expression on womens faces when they are acting on teevee or in the movies.
Wow. It’s been a really long time since I’ve been around! WAY too much going on.
You know, it’s not hard to NOT rape someone. If alcohol is involved, it’s very easy to say “Hey, are you ok with what we’re doing?” If there’s a negative or unclear response… stop. It’s easy. It’s also easy to just stop until you’re sure that your sex partner is coherent enough to give positive consent. Then again, I care about the wants and feelings of the person that I’m having sex with. In some ways, more than I care about my own wants and feelings. I can easily put them aside until I’m sure that my potential sex partner is willing.
The issue here is that, to an MRA, his boner is more important than the rights and feelings of his sex partner.
The sad part is that, I give men a lot more credit than the father of the MRA movement gives them. Really, if he believes that men are unable to control themselves around women, to the point that they can’t help but rape said woman… that’s a very sad statement as to his opinion of the mental capacity of men in general.
Also, alcohol tolerance varies. I can drink a fifth and will still have the mental capacity to understand what’s going on and consent to something. A good friend of mine has one shot and she’s completely incoherent. The amount of alcohol consumed means very little, as to whether someone can give consent.
I read that and wondered who are these women who are inside men? Is it like the Telesecta?
Alex, that is what I meant.
@archaeoholmes
I referred to it empirically. Even if one Man is in charge of the entire organization, that organization still functions based upon the wishes of the Female audience, and not the Male audience.
If one observes closely, one would find incessant Female propaganda, that glorifies Women at the expense of Men, and the saddest most Pathetic part is, Men are being indoctrinated :Brainwashed, every single day!
Whether a Man is the owner, or a Woman, is irrelevant. What is relevant is what it Portrays. What it portrays is NOTHING but Feminism.
Catwoman, you really aren’t making yourself any clearer. What is your problem? You’re talking as if everyone here is saying any sex where anyone’s had any alcohol is rape, which is a load of tosh. What, exactly, is your complaint? That last comment was such a wall of text it made my eyes glaze over.
Angle brackets will do blockquotes for you.
This:
“Has anyone noticed the Snobbish “I am better than you” look on the Women’s faces, in almost every American TV show or Movie?”
Gotta say, I was having a bit of a crummy day up ’til now. My pod-sharing co-workers are away sick today, and I was feeling a bit bored and neglected and low. Then along comes Derick, I had a big hearty laugh-out-loud, and my day has improved exponentially. Thanks, Derick!
Oh, and no, I haven’t noticed that look, because it’s not actually a real thing. And THAT’S real.
Derik who I strongly suspect is a sock:
Citation Fucking Needed for every stupid claim you just made.