A Voice for Men: we’ll support women in combat only if the proper percentage of women get killed.
Woman officially not in combat role.
As everyone reading this blog no doubt already knows, feminists have hailed the Pentagon’s decision to open combat jobs to women, which will allow women the same opportunities to serve as men. The decision is also a backhanded acknowledgement that, for all intents and purposes, women are serving in combat today already. (Congresswoman Tammy Duckworth lost both of her legs in combat in Iraq – but officially, what she was engaged in wasn’t combat.)
It seems inevitable that, as a result of this decision, young women will be required to sign up for selective service alongside men. While virtually all feminists I know oppose the draft, most agree that as long as registration is going to be required, it should be required for both men and women. Indeed, when selective service was reinstated in 1981, the National Organization for Women brought a lawsuit demanding this sort of equality.
Reaction amongst Men’s Rightsers to the Pentagon’s announcement has been mixed. Some have welcomed the change, as a “what’s good for the goose” acknowledgement of equal rights and responsibilities. Others, like most of the regulars on The Spearhead, predict catastrophe, as inherently unqualified women are sent to the front lines. Regular Spearhead commenter Uncle Elmer joked:
After this experiment runs its course, how many men will have died while bringing tampon supplies up to the front?
Can anyone tell me the additional garbage load from tampon-related issues on all-women submarines? Could a mission fail if some gal flushed her tampon down the toilet instead of following the proper mil-spec procedure?
But the most telling reaction has come from A Voice for Men, which in an editorial suggested that it would only support the move if women were required to die as often as men.
No, really. Here’s what the editorialist, presumably site founder Paul Elam, wrote:
AVFM supports the spirit of the new Pentagon Directive … However, any blanket approval of the new measure thus far would be premature. …
[T]he only way this new policy will have any meaning will be if it is mandatory that women face combat on the front lines. With 20% of the military being comprised of women, that means roughly 20% of combat related fatalities should be female. 1 in 5 of body bags being filled overseas should contain the bodies of mothers, sisters, daughters, wives and girlfriends.
AVFM isn’t alone in hoping that one result of the Pentagon’s new policy will be increased injury and death for women. On his blog the self-designated “counter-feminist agent of change” Fidelbogen quoted – with a weird sort of semi-approval – one comment from an unknown person he says he found online:
I know this isn’t a laughing matter but this is pretty fucking sweet. Now those very same women who complain about how hard childbirth is get to experience real pain and misery by getting their arms blown off by enemy fire or their legs blown off by mines. Or getting infections when they have to stay at their post for days at a time without taking a bath. Those same women who say all men are rapists can now see what real rape is when they are taken as POW’s and gang-raped by foreign men at gun point and passed around like a piece of meat and then their heads blown off when they are done. This is real war ladies, are you ready for your cup of true equality?
In the comments on AVFM, meanwhile one Rick Westlake helped to make clearer the vindictive subtext of the AVFM’s editorial, suggesting that the Pentagon’s decision could be good for men if it served to
rub … some high-ratcheted, ‘entitled/empowered’ noses in the misandric, disposable-male double standard of the Selective Service system.
Our current society, including our military, makes mock of ‘equality’ by divorcing ‘opportunity’ from ‘consequences,’ ‘choices’ from ‘costs,’ and ‘benefits’ from ‘responsibility.’ Princesses are awarded all of the opportunities, choices and benefits and are excused from all the responsibility, costs and consequences. ‘Draft-pigs,’ meaning men, are made to shoulder all those dirty, nasty, dangerous and demeaning responsibilities, consequences and costs on behalf of the Entitled Empowered Princesses.
Putting women on the combat line would be disastrous for the military … But the fact remains, enough Princesses have clamored for the ‘opportunities and benefits’ of serving in the front line, heedless of the consequences and the costs.
By requiring Princesses to register for Selective Service, before they can claim the benefits that ‘draft-pigs’ can only receive if they’ve registered – and by declaring them liable for the same fines and penalties as the draft-pigs, if they don’t – we at least remind them that freedom isn’t free, that choices have costs, and that true equality includes responsibility and consequences.
I can already hear the thin, reedy screeches from the Princesses. Fine. Let them learn what it is to hump 35-pound fifty-cal ammo cans to feed Ma Deuce in a firefight. Or let them scuttle back to the home and the hearth, and give thanks for (and to) the Brave Men who will defend them.
Elam himself echoed this vindictive “let them eat equality” stance in a sneering comment posted under his own name suggesting that in the wake of the Pentagon’s new policy plenty of women won’t find the “aroma” of equality to
be so sweet … This is what feminism was always about, and now, after three waves, the chickens are going to come home to roost. Because feminism never was about anything but creating tax paying, laboring, consuming, bleeding and dying servants to the masters of corporatocracy.
They lured women in with visions of corner offices and autonomy, and now that they have fully taken the bait, the doors are going to be slammed behind them and locked. They will be left to languish in their “freedom” as corporate wage slaves, and when needed they will be forced to contribute to the rivers of blood required to keep it going.
NOW and others will likely succeed in keeping the last part “optional” for while, but it won’t last.
The grand daughters of today’s college woman is as fucked as any man in history.
To which every feminist I know would say: bring it on. Feminists are well aware that equality, along with its many benefits, brings certain costs. Putting more women into combat roles means, inevitably, that more women will be injured or killed. The feminists supporting the Pentagon’s decision are aware of this. Unlike many MRAs, though, they look at combat injuries and deaths as one of the sad but inevitable consequences of war — not as something to rub anyone’s face into.
Here’s a hint to any MRAs who think that either AVFM or the more blatantly sadistic commenter quoted by Fidelbogen has a point: Civil Rights activism is about uplifting everyone, not making others “pay.”
When the American civil rights movement took up the issue of voting rights, civil rights activists demanded that black people be allowed to vote without harassment or other obstacles like “literacy tests” standing in their way.
Civil rights activists didn’t demand that whites be kept from voting.
The Civil Rights movement called for historically all-white colleges to be opened up to blacks. It didn’t call for white people to be banned from these colleges too.
This is how you can tell that the Men’s Rights movement, as it stands today, is not a true civil rights movement. Because insofar as it is about anything other than complaining about (and sometimes harassing) feminists and women in general, it’s about tearing down rather than building up.
Instead of trying to build domestic violence shelters and other services for men, for example, the MRM is more interested in defunding shelters for women – even when their efforts in this area directly harm male victims.
It’s telling that when Father’s Rights activist Glenn Sacks had an issue with the advertisements being run by one DV shelter, he encouraged his followers to bombard the shelter’s donors with phone calls in order to cripple the shelter’s fundraising efforts – even though the shelter in question also provides services for men. It’s telling as well that MRAs rail endlessly against the Violence Against Women Act, and have celebrated Republican opposition to it – even though the act is officially gender neutral in everything but its name, and would provide funding for men’s shelters if MRAs got off their asses to build any.
Instead of fighting for the rights of male victims of rape, the Men’s Rights movement is more interested in downplaying the rape of women, wildly exaggerating the number of “false rape accusations,” and in endless discussions about whether or not having sex with women incapacitated with drinks or drugs is really rape. All of these things contribute to a “rape culture” that harms male victims of rape as well as female.
Not that most MRAs actually care about male victims of rape except as a debating point — perhaps because that would require acknowledging that the overwhelming majority of their rapists are other men. (MRAs do get outraged in the rare cases in which women are the culprits.) The group that does more than any other to fight for male rape victims is the anti-prison rape group Just Detention. Try to find even a mention of this group on any of the leading Men’s Rights sites. (The only mention of the group on AVFM is a comment in a post attacking a feminist writer noting that it isn’t part of the Men’s Rights movement.)
There are endless other examples, because this is in essence the way that the so-called “Men’s Rights” movement does business.
When you take a certain pleasure in the notion of women being “made to pay” or otherwise harmed when they seek equality, you’re about as much of a civil rights movement as the Klan.
Posted on January 26, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, are these guys 12 years old?, douchebaggery, feminism, gloating, hate, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, princesses, reactionary bullshit, taking pleasure in women's pain, the spearhead, women in combat and tagged a voice for men, antifeminism, men's rights, misogyny, women in combat. Bookmark the permalink. 1,143 Comments.
Kiwi girl, total hugs for you and scritches for your kitties, I’ll be thinking about you.
LOL at the person who doesn’t understand that intersectionality is about race and sexuality as well as gender calling other people stupid.
I think I’m going to join you, cloudiah. There’s only so much clueless I can deal with in one day.
Thanks, I’m going to go off now and throw myself into watching a DVD.
“I think I’ll pass if it’s that strong … hair on the chest wouldn’t go with my clothes and if Mr K has some secret fetish for that kind of thing I’d rather not find out.”
Lol, he might, not like women shaving was a thing in his era! Want some whipped cream then?
Cassandra — yeah I just don’t even know what to say to that. The only way that could ever work, aside from “women are worse at combat”, would be an invasion. Except you’re very right, the risk of the plague is higher than that (in the US, and yes I do mean The Plague)
Don’t remind me about bubonic plague, please. Some of the wildlife here carries it. One women got it from a squirrel bite about 10-20 years back.
“Cassie — you really didn’t — you gave a bunch of side topics about specific wars, and numbers of troops and completely irrelevant things like a war in the country with the draft.”
Sorry but I disagree with you. I think that I showed the problems with applying such things to everyone. I can’t be bothered rehashing my position though.
“which, if you’ve forgotten, was that feminists are just like MRAs and other oppressors if we say that the draft should apply to everyone, because it should just be done away with.”
What a strawman! Let me address this one bit at a time. Firstly I never said feminists are like MRAs I said in regards to this argument you were using the same logic MRAs use. Secondly “MRAs and other oppressors” I am sure I didn’t phrase it this way as I don’t consider MRAs to be oppressors.
“All of this, btw, is nitpicking over one statement in the original post while ignoring that MRAs are going into how women should be raped as POWs in disgustingly graphic detail.”
I made one comment about one comment in the OP and everyone swamped me with replies. I didn’t force you to do that, I have forced no one to reply. Stop replying and talk about something else if you want. Jeez.
“Frankly? As an American? You’re really coming off as an outsider know it all that’d be verging on colonialism is the US wasn’t a global superpower (with a volunteer military!).”
That word salad made me lol so I included it here.
“LOL at the person who doesn’t understand that intersectionality is about race and sexuality as well as gender calling other people stupid. ”
I am well aware that intersectionality is about race and sexuality as well. Where did I state otherwise?
Last comment quite literally too stupid to respond to, disengaging now.
@ Argenti
Plague! And there are squirrels, racoons, and possums all living near my house. This is one of the reasons why my cat doesn’t get to go outside.
“Intersectionality is about a lot more than just gender, sweetie.”
Well aware of that and thanks for using a word that is used to demean women to insult me. Shows your true colours.
Cassie should just fuck right off, seriously. It’s okay to dismiss women as a class, but Palestinians (‘cos you get to wear a cool keffiyeh?) or LGBTI rights — that isn’t identity politics? What an idiot. Seriously. We’ve had some stupid trolls here, but this one really excels at trolling without any meaning.
“Cassie should just fuck right off, seriously. It’s okay to dismiss women as a class”
The fact I am not a feminist and do not agree with feminist theory does not mean I dismiss women as a class. Not in the slightest. Anymore inane strawman fallacies you want to throw my way? It is getting quite boring hitting them back to you though.
Cassandra, I don’t let my kitties go outside for the same reason. I’m right in LA, but I see scary hissing possums all the time at night.
I saw a family of racoons one night when I was taking out the trash. They were very cute, but no amount of cute is worth getting the plague.
“that isn’t identity politics?” Also never claimed I have no identity politics. My exact phrasing was “too much identity politics and not enough class politics” if you want to scroll back.
Two strawman fallacies in one post. Nice work!
Fuck off, you embarrassing little dipshit. Argenti was pointing out exactly what I said to you before – that you were marching in telling USians you know more about their experiences and their country’s laws, how those laws affect people and how they feel about them, than they do. If you can’t grasp that it’d be colonialism if the power balance between Aus and the US was reversed – which was crystal clear from that sentence – then you’re even more stupid than I thought. And that’s saying something.
Just go walk on Lego for the evening, you’d be doing something more useful than you are here.
Glad to see that while I was gone I missed exactly nothing. Best wishes to the sick kitties and fishies, though.
@ Kittehs
Now you know how I felt when that one Scottish guy used to turn up here and wank on about a bunch of silly bullshit.
Elam is a out of the loop as usual. But that aside, women have five times fewer car accidents than men. That’s because men are rash and impulsive and take more risks. That’s why they pay more for car insurance. That’s scientific fact. Stay with me here.
Anyway, women may or may not die at the same rate as men in war but it’s quite possible they will die less because they exercise better judgement. The use of the pre-orbital frontal cortex is most active when women feel threatened. This is the reasoning part of the brain. When men feel threatened their amygdala goes nuts, shutting down the thinking parts of the brain, sending signals to the adrenals to produce massive amounts of adrenaline. Which is why men are more prone to irrational emotion driven violence than women.
Anyway, we shall see how these brain differences play out won’t we.
Not that I’m bashing men’s different brains. They evolved that way because they powered their way through threats and their (almost) only job was to hunt. Women did EVERYTHING else. Water, gathering food, herbs gathering, medicine, childcare, shelter, clothing etc. Meat was a supplement in most landscapes. Women were the mules of the tribe.
Men evolved to stalk, hunt and kill as their primary role – they made tools and little else. Women evolved to problem solve in teams and to out-think their opponent. Fighting and running – which is what the amygdala and adrenaline makes men do – would lead to a woman losing pretty much every time. So women evolved to use different parts of the brains to survive. They are more strategic.
Now we need risk takers. In fact this continent required risk takers to sail across uncharted waters to find a strange and dangerous land.
All in all, the military is a team and a balanced team kicks the ass of a lopsided reactionary trigger happy one any day.
This is also why top fortune 500 companies have the highest percentages of women in them. Humans are designed to work in TEAMS as PARTNERS. We are two sides of the same coin. One does not dominate the other or it how can it exist.
Putting all the leadership and decisions in risk taking impulsive men’s hands has led us where> To great magnificent achievements and at the same time to irresponsible overpopulation, rash inventions and business\political\scientific decisions that have destroyed our natural resources and led us to the brink of total military annihilation. Half of American’s taxes go to the military, It is a BUSINESS you pay for while your house is foreclosed. Humans and this planet need less rash power and more forethought – even and especially in the military.
Elam of AVFM could learn a thing or two from this. After all, with dem bitches being independent from all this paid work, and it therefore being so much harder for a man to find a woman willing to promote his DNA into the future generation, he should realize that not getting along with us, could lead to his DNA meeting the end of the line. Know what I mean. Do men really think women don’t know a thing or two about war just because their combat strategy is not based on muscle and force but perhaps something more patient and strategic.
Adapt or die Elam.
I can’t be bothered with this pointless argument. At the moment, the storm in Queensland is just hitting my coastal NSW town. I’m hoping I’ll be able to watch the Open final (go Andy Murray) as I spent last weekend on my annual Melbourne trip for the tennis. (Waves at Kitteh)
Hospital tank is best for any new fish you intend to add eventually to your regular fish habitat. I learned thus the hard way with many goldfish. And to make things worse, I practice aquaponics, which is the newest term for a plain old boring biological filter. Yep. The normal fish meds would be completely out of the question for me, not to mention be completely horrible for the plants growing in my bio filter. The strawberries were so sweet last season, and I refuse to give them up!
BTW did I ever post a kitty update? She seems to be fine now, so apparently it was just cystitis. I’m trying to up her intake of liquids and make sure she doesn’t get stressed. If it happens again I may invest in Feliway.
“If you can’t grasp that it’d be colonialism if the power balance between Aus and the US was reversed ”
I was informed earlier that once people use hypotheticals it means they have no argument left.
Sounds like you don’t think feminism is important, eh? If you don’t call yourself a feminist yet claim to care about women’s concerns, you’re either too fucking young AND stupid to know what the word means, or you’re a hypocrite or coward who doesn’t want to be identified with the big scary feminists. Or it could be you’re just living with the beneifits of feminism and are utterly clueless about just how important it is.
Cluelessness seems to be your main problem.
Anyone who can’t be bothered to explain what their own theories are, really can’t complain when others guess at what those theories are.
Basic argumentation 101. Shouldn’t need to be explained.
I blame no country (nor socialism) for Cassie’s obtuseness. Only Cassie is to blame.
Everyone in my area is invited to our puppy bowl party next week.
katz, how many puppies do you have? (I am still too sick to make actual plans, but you know, I’m weighing my options.)
I thought Cassie didn’t want four more hours of stupidity, but she is still talking.
I used to get a lot of satisfaction from giving Paul’s propaganda clogged guts a strong dose of truth laden laxatives (I’m a nurse) but he banned me from his AVFM site :-( But I’m sure he comes here regularly to pump up his rage quota.
Hi Paul :-) Sorry I never stuck around to clean up your mess. I didn’t want to emasculate you by implying you couldn’t handle finishing what you started.
Cassandra – yeah, it’s just cringeworthy when these morons come out, isn’t it? Makes you want to go into THIS CROUTON DOESN’T REPRESENT ME mode.
More importantly, that’s great news about your kitty! I’m really glad to hear she’s better.
BigMomma – ::waves back:: My Mum’s sort of in mourning about the tennis, though, ‘cos the lovely Roger’s out. Still, if he can’t be in the final I hope Murray wins it!
Bring warm and cool weather clothes, btw, at least as far as shoes and a jumper go. The weather’s been really upsy downsy lately. We tend to have a high-thirties day on the Thursday and then drop. Yesterday was only 20 and today’s prolly mid twenties but steamy hot.
::this ends the weather report::
Cloudiah, it is an Animal Planet show.
“Sounds like you don’t think feminism is important, eh?”
I think it has played an important role for women throughout history and has some role today but often I think it is misguided and ultimately damaging to the cause as well.
” If you don’t call yourself a feminist yet claim to care about women’s concerns”
Feminists often think they have the monopoly on pushing for gender equality, this is absurd, there are 100s if not more ideologies that are involved with pushing for gender equality and have different philosophies and approaches on how to achieve that. For example socialism! It provides an excellent basis in which to understand the world and understand how to change it.
” you’re either too fucking young AND stupid to know what the word means”,
My age seems to come up a lot and yet no one here knows it. Please continue to speculate though it is quite amusing.
“or you’re a hypocrite or coward who doesn’t want to be identified with the big scary feminists.”
Nope, I don’t believe in patriarchy theory, I don’t believe men oppress women. So I don’t call myself a feminist. Cowardice lol try defending palestine in a zionist world then we can talk about cowardice.
What have the poor Palestinians ever done to deserve such idiotic “supporters”?
katz, I thought you had actual real puppies. :-( I would travel long distances for puppies.
Try defending a Palestinian woman in a Zionist or any fucking world, then we can talk about fucking cowardice. This isn’t hard. Any moral human can get it.
“Try defending a Palestinian woman in a Zionist or any fucking world, then we can talk about fucking cowardice.”
Ok, I have, what did you want to talk to in regards to “fucking cowardice”?
Guess what, dipshit – feminism isn’t monolithic, there are many shades and different ideas within it. But at base, if you think women are people and should have equal rights and opportunities as men, then that’s feminism, and you can’t pretend otherwise.
“Don’t believe in patriarchy theory” – riiight, so you don’t actually look around at the structures of societies through history. Good one.
You know why your age comes up a lot? Because you come off like a kid of about seventeen who thinks she’s fucking the God Almighty of knowledge while having precious little to back it up. You read like the counterpart of all those little tossers who come on here after reading Atlas Shrugged and think they know everything – and have to make everything about them.
Also loling at “throughout history”. Seneca Falls is usually recognized as when feminism officially got started, and that was in 1848. From a “throughout history” perspective that’s the blink of an eye ago.
Back to the far more interesting puppy derail – you guys, the other day Mr C and I were sitting outside the coffee shop and we saw a baby Husky. It was just learning how to walk on a leash and was taking its person on a walk/run! So cute.
Aother page of comments!
“Don’t remind me about bubonic plague, please. Some of the wildlife here carries it. One women got it from a squirrel bite about 10-20 years back.”
Meep, sorry, didn’t realize you were out that way!
So you don’t believe in patriarchy theory yet you claim to support LGBT* people.
Okay then. All I can say is that anyone who thinks that patriarchy doesn’t exist and wants to rid society of the oppression of LGBT* people is of no help to LGBT* people. At least not to transsexual folks like me, whose lives have been profoundly affected by patriarchal misogyny.
“Secondly “MRAs and other oppressors” I am sure I didn’t phrase it this way as I don’t consider MRAs to be oppressors”
And I am now officially done giving a shit wtf Cassie says! Go read the goddamned original post Cassie!
“I think it has played an important role for women throughout history and has some role today but often I think it is misguided and ultimately damaging to the cause as well.”
So women mustn’t have their own concerns front and centre, ever. If that’s not what you’re saying you’d better fuckingwell clarify. Right now you’re sounding like rather more than half the human species is less important than the other. And what is this precious “cause” that feminism mustn’t get in the way of?
“Guess what, dipshit – feminism isn’t monolithic, there are many shades and different ideas within it”
Yes I definitely agree with this, which is why I was puzzled when you said “you’re either too fucking young AND stupid to know what the word means,”. There is no one meaning to the word/term feminism!
“But at base, if you think women are people and should have equal rights and opportunities as men, then that’s feminism, and you can’t pretend otherwise.”
I don’t really want to get into an argument about what the term feminism means, it is a bore. I will tell you however the way in which I use it. I use it to describe people calling themselves feminists who think men oppress women and there is a conspiracy called the patriarchy.
I think it is a bit dishonest to insist someone is a feminist because they support women’s rights, however if that is all you mean by the term I am cool with it and it fits me.
““Don’t believe in patriarchy theory” – riiight, so you don’t actually look around at the structures of societies through history. Good one. ”
Ah, I think you are committing an equivocation fallacy, in terms of feminism patriarchy means men organise society to benefit men and oppress women. The way you seem to be using it now is to mean that there were patriarchial elements in society in the way that children got their fathers surname that kinda thing. Which I agree with, but that is patriarchy not patriarchy theory which is a feminist theory.
“You know why your age comes up a lot? Because you come off like a kid of about seventeen who thinks she’s fucking the God Almighty of knowledge while having precious little to back it up.”
Yes, people become hostile when their ideas are challenged and the challenger does not back down. I don’t think that is a bad reflection on me so much as just normal human behaviour. By the by if you guys care about ableism why not ageism?
“and have to make everything about them.”
You are the ones calling me dumb, immature, a box of hair, a teenager, an adolescent, a parrot and whatever else. I think it is you making it about me. I just wanted to discuss the issues.
“Okay then. All I can say is that anyone who thinks that patriarchy doesn’t exist and wants to rid society of the oppression of LGBT* people is of no help to LGBT* people. At least not to transsexual folks like me, whose lives have been profoundly affected by patriarchal misogyny.”
That is a very black and white thing to say, I disagree with feminists and anarchists and a million other ideologies but I don’t think they are useless, I think they all have something to offer and we should work together. Sectarianism never did the left any good.
Husky puppies? Husky puppies!
“I saw a family of racoons one night when I was taking out the trash. They were very cute, but no amount of cute is worth getting the plague.”
They really are adorable, but this is an entirely true statement.
I had one nearly walk into me on my way home from work one day, poor thing had gotten its head stuck in a can! So I removed the can, it looked up at me, paused a second, and ran off at lightening speed. I was living with the last abusive ex at the time, he thought it emmensely stupid that I didn’t ignore it since it was out in day time and thus had to be rabid! (Yeah ok dude, e bag of cans was obviously right next to the barely enclosed under porch and probably smelt delicious)
Opposums are just freaky though.
TLDR for anyone coming in late – Cassie has Issues with feminism (but any other identity-based movement is fine as long as it takes a back seat to socialism), wanks on for hundreds of comments because she isn’t willing to admit that her first few comments were pretty silly.
“So women mustn’t have their own concerns front and centre, ever. If that’s not what you’re saying you’d better fuckingwell clarify. ”
This is a common criticism of socialism. One that doesn’t fit, women can certainly have their concerns front and centre, however I disagree feminism is the best way to do that. Women protesting calling themselves sluts and saying this empowers them? Sorry no it doesn’t.
“Right now you’re sounding like rather more than half the human species is less important than the other. And what is this precious “cause” that feminism mustn’t get in the way of?”
The cause of course is women’s liberation!
Update! If you want to know what would be most helpful to LGBT people, definitely don’t ask an LGBT person. Ask Cassie instead.
Wrong, dipshit. The naming is just part of the partriarchal structures, which yes, exist through history and very different cultures and are organised for the benefit of men. That’s precisely what I’m talking about when I say you haven’t looked and know nothing about history. One doesn’t have to indulge in theories to see that. It’s right there in the history books.
Oh, and you can keep the Oh-I’m-such-a-genius-radical-the-mob-hates-me tripe to yourself. It’s also very typical of the underage trolls we get here. Your ideas are garbage and have no facts to back them up; you shift the goalposts and contradict yourself and started all this by fixating on a nonexistent problem, ignoring the substance of the article.
“Update! If you want to know what would be most helpful to LGBT people, definitely don’t ask an LGBT person. Ask Cassie instead.”
I am LGBTI genius. So many assumptions, how do you manage to fit them all into your head?
“And I am now officially done giving a shit wtf Cassie says! Go read the goddamned original post Cassie!”
People saying cruel things doesn’t make them oppressors.
Another update! The only LGBT person whose opinion counts is Cassie, the rest of us can all go piss up a rope.
I’d call most MRAs wannabe oppressors, actually. The basis of their movement seems to be rage that the universe has failed to give them each at least one woman to oppress.
“Wrong, dipshit. The naming is just part of the partriarchal structures, which yes, exist through history and very different cultures and are organised for the benefit of men. That’s precisely what I’m talking about when I say you haven’t looked and know nothing about history. One doesn’t have to indulge in theories to see that. It’s right there in the history books.”
I am sure my convict forefathers were very appreciative of how society was constructed so they could be put in cages in another country. I am sure all the men who have been killed in mine collapses and died choking up coal when they were lucky enough to escape a cave in would be glad to hear that. This exact argument is why class is so important. Life has been harsh and cruel to most people not just women. Men have had the priviliged position in terms of economic power yes but that does not mean this is a particularly good society for them. Society was created by those in power, those who controlled the surplus throughout history. And that wasn’t men, it was a tiny tiny tiny percentage of men. It is right there in the history books.
“Oh, and you can keep the Oh-I’m-such-a-genius-radical-the-mob-hates-me tripe to yourself.”
Another strawman I never stated anything of the sort. What I did state was if you put someone in a room with a bunch of people who disagree with them about anything they are going to lash out, it is all part of the clique mentality, it seems quite normal to humans. I mentioned nothing about being a genius or a radical or any such thing. Can you please display some honesty it is getting boring.
That is a very black and white thing to say, I disagree with feminists and anarchists and a million other ideologies but I don’t think they are useless, I think they all have something to offer and we should work together. Sectarianism never did the left any good.
Wait, so you said earlier that you don’t think men oppress women yet now you’re saying that there is some value in patriarchy theory? Do you agree or disagree with that theory? I get the impression that you think that the patriarchal oppression of trans* people is real. If you truly believe that, then why are you disagreeing with patriarchy theory? The theory that trans* people are oppressed by the patriarchy makes no sense if patriarchy theory is out of the picture.
You aren’t being clear at all.
Women protesting calling themselves sluts and saying this empowers them? Sorry no it doesn’t.
Do you even know what the purpose of SlutWalk is? It’s a protest against victim-blaming directed at women.
So, anyway, Husky puppy…it was so fluffy! RE racoons, apparently some people keep them as pets? I can see why, since they really are cute, but they seem a bit bitey.
Kitteh — oh good, that did make sense, one can never be quite sure when nuts (and on half as many crazy pills as I am! [memory? You needed that?])
katz — the fishies say thank you :)
DLColvin — I got spoiled by a local fish store with an owner who knew his shit and dealt with the deworming and whatnot before selling the fish (dude sold piranhas he’d bred, could never have them myself, but damned are the little ones cute!) and my bio-filter could grow things?! Why did I never think of this? (Ok, I did, but I’m using an enclosed canister filter, not a sump tank)
In short, totally brought this on myself not quarantining the loaches, and know it, and thus feel terrible for risking the cories. Successfully and accidentally breed cories, risk them getting worms >t;.<
Good to hear about the kitty Cassandra!
Hypotheticals are the same as conditionals now? We’re sure this isn’t Mr. “Conditionals are misandry” Al right?
Sorry Cassie, I forgot to quote you properly. I hope you can see that not all of the paragraphs in my previous comment are mine.
“Wait, so you said earlier that you don’t think men oppress women yet now you’re saying that there is some value in patriarchy theory? Do you agree or disagree with that theory? ”
I disagree with it, I never said there was any value in it. A patriarchy according to feminists is about men oppressing women. I don’t agree men oppress women.
“I get the impression that you think that the patriarchal oppression of trans* people is real.”
Oppression of trans people is real, patriarchial oppression isn’t because patriarchy theory is bunk. Men do not oppress women.
“Do you even know what the purpose of SlutWalk is? It’s a protest against victim-blaming directed at women.”
Having a good purpose does not mean a particular action will be good or helpful. I can object to victim blaming and to harmful actions like slutwalk although I am sympathetic with those who organised it and particiapated in it and do not judge them harshly for it.
“Sorry Cassie, I forgot to quote you properly. I hope you can see that not all of the paragraphs in my previous comment are mine.”
Yes I got it, thanks :)
Your critique, while valid, only applies to non-intersectionalist feminism that ignores SES.
Oh, and men have had much more privilege than just economic power. I hope you know that.
@ Argenti
This is like what would happen if Mr Al had a baby with Camille Paglia.
(It would have to be Mr Al who taught baby how to write. As ridiculous as Paglia can be she can construct a much tighter argument than this mess.)
“I am sure my convict forefathers were very appreciative of how society was constructed so they could be put in cages in another country. I am sure all the men who have been killed in mine collapses and died choking up coal when they were lucky enough to escape a cave in would be glad to hear that.”
And in those sentences you erase all the women and children who did the same work and suffered the same punishments for crimes. Yeah, great reading of history there. Or don’t your convict foremothers count? You’re also blithely indifferent to laws written specifically to control and limit women’s lives in various countries and times – laws written by men. Can you really look at societies where men wrote all the laws, where they were the rulers with power, where women were not even allowed to retain property on marriage, and claim there was no patriarchy? Gods, read a basic social history about Victorian England and you’ll see it right there.
I like the way Cassie plays her oppression cards one at a time. Mention LBGT issues? She has a reveal for that. Mention history? She has a reveal for that. Possibly quite true, but the manner of telling them is … odd.
“By the by if you guys care about ableism why not ageism?”
Oh hey, maybe because we don’t insult or judge people solely on their age? And usually when it comes up it’s an attempt to give the person making a fool of themselves a less embarrassing out?
Cuz see, me? 27, and I know I’m not the youngest one on here (hm, I am the youngest on in this thread though huh?)
And I don’t really care your age Cassie, but you’re certainly coming off as the sort that give all young people a reputation as being hot headed know it alls.
Also, mxe is right, drop the T in GLBT, and probably the I too, you pay lip service, if you think being faab or presenting as feminine isn’t a factor in oppression, just class, you’re of no use to anyone who isn’t comfortable as their biological gender. (mxe, genderqueer/androgynous here, and I’m pissy, I can only guess how much this is pissing you off, and I’m sorry)
“Your critique, while valid, only applies to non-intersectionalist feminism that ignores SES.
I don’t agree, any intersectional feminist I have come across still believes in the patriarchy. “Yes yes” they exclaim “men are oppressed by the ruling class but there is also the patriarchy where men oppress women, haven’t you heard of intersectionality?”
“Oh, and men have had much more privilege than just economic power. I hope you know that.”
Yes, but economic power is the main one.
(Odd as in it doesn’t suggest a person arguing in good faith, to me.)
@ Kittehs
Part of the reason I initially pegged Cassie as late teens/early twenties is that I’ve worked as an editor, and I’ve never seen this particular style of flailing, reactive, self-justifying mess from anyone past that age range. It’s one of the reasons that people that age are a lot of work to edit, even when they’re really smart. They take everything too personally and get distracted by the need to prove that they could not possibly have been wrong about anything.
“Women protesting calling themselves sluts and saying this empowers them? Sorry no it doesn’t.”
+1 “does not understand slut walks” point
Cassandra — yeah, the ally failure is strong in this one. (And on that note, I’m deferring to mxe on the relationship between feminism and oppression of trans* people as I only sort of give a shit wtf gender you decide I am)
“Cuz see, me? 27, and I know I’m not the youngest one on here (hm, I am the youngest on in this thread though huh?)”
You just like it when the rest of us bang our walking sticks on the floor at you. :P