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A Voice for Men: we’ll support women in combat only if the proper percentage of women get killed.

womannotincombat

Woman officially not in combat role.

As everyone reading this blog no doubt already knows, feminists have hailed the Pentagon’s decision to open combat jobs to women, which will allow women the same opportunities to serve as men. The decision is also a backhanded acknowledgement that, for all intents and purposes, women are serving in combat today already. (Congresswoman Tammy Duckworth lost both of her legs in combat in Iraq – but officially, what she was engaged in wasn’t combat.)

It seems inevitable that, as a result of this decision, young women will be required to sign up for selective service alongside men. While virtually all feminists I know oppose the draft, most agree that as long as registration is going to be required, it should be required for both men and women. Indeed, when selective service was reinstated in 1981, the National Organization for Women brought a lawsuit demanding this sort of equality.

Reaction amongst Men’s Rightsers to the Pentagon’s announcement has been mixed. Some have welcomed the change, as a “what’s good for the goose” acknowledgement of equal rights and responsibilities. Others, like most of the regulars on The Spearhead, predict catastrophe, as inherently unqualified women are sent to the front lines. Regular Spearhead commenter Uncle Elmer joked:

After this experiment runs its course, how many men will have died while bringing tampon supplies up to the front?

Can anyone tell me the additional garbage load from tampon-related issues on all-women submarines? Could a mission fail if some gal flushed her tampon down the toilet instead of following the proper mil-spec procedure?

But the most telling reaction has come from A Voice for Men, which in an editorial suggested that it would only support the move if women were required to die as often as men.

No, really. Here’s what the editorialist, presumably site founder Paul Elam, wrote:

AVFM supports the spirit of the new Pentagon Directive …  However, any blanket approval of the new measure thus far would be premature. …

[T]he only way this new policy will have any meaning will be if it is mandatory that women face combat on the front lines. With 20% of the military being comprised of women, that means roughly 20% of combat related fatalities should be female. 1 in 5 of body bags being filled overseas should contain the bodies of mothers, sisters, daughters, wives and girlfriends.

AVFM isn’t alone in hoping that one result of the Pentagon’s new policy will be increased injury and death for women. On his blog the self-designated “counter-feminist agent of change” Fidelbogen quoted – with a weird sort of semi-approval – one comment from an unknown person he says he found online:

I know this isn’t a laughing matter but this is pretty fucking sweet. Now those very same women who complain about how hard childbirth is get to experience real pain and misery by getting their arms blown off by enemy fire or their legs blown off by mines. Or getting infections when they have to stay at their post for days at a time without taking a bath. Those same women who say all men are rapists can now see what real rape is when they are taken as POW’s and gang-raped by foreign men at gun point and passed around like a piece of meat and then their heads blown off when they are done. This is real war ladies, are you ready for your cup of true equality?

In the comments on AVFM, meanwhile one Rick Westlake helped to make clearer the vindictive subtext of the AVFM’s editorial, suggesting that the Pentagon’s decision could be good for men if it served to

rub …  some high-ratcheted, ‘entitled/empowered’ noses in the misandric, disposable-male double standard of the Selective Service system.

Our current society, including our military, makes mock of ‘equality’ by divorcing ‘opportunity’ from ‘consequences,’ ‘choices’ from ‘costs,’ and ‘benefits’ from ‘responsibility.’ Princesses are awarded all of the opportunities, choices and benefits and are excused from all the responsibility, costs and consequences. ‘Draft-pigs,’ meaning men, are made to shoulder all those dirty, nasty, dangerous and demeaning responsibilities, consequences and costs on behalf of the Entitled Empowered Princesses.

Putting women on the combat line would be disastrous for the military … But the fact remains, enough Princesses have clamored for the ‘opportunities and benefits’ of serving in the front line, heedless of the consequences and the costs.

By requiring Princesses to register for Selective Service, before they can claim the benefits that ‘draft-pigs’ can only receive if they’ve registered – and by declaring them liable for the same fines and penalties as the draft-pigs, if they don’t – we at least remind them that freedom isn’t free, that choices have costs, and that true equality includes responsibility and consequences.

I can already hear the thin, reedy screeches from the Princesses. Fine. Let them learn what it is to hump 35-pound fifty-cal ammo cans to feed Ma Deuce in a firefight. Or let them scuttle back to the home and the hearth, and give thanks for (and to) the Brave Men who will defend them.

Elam himself echoed this vindictive “let them eat equality” stance in a sneering comment posted under his own name suggesting that in the wake of the Pentagon’s new policy plenty of women won’t find the “aroma” of equality to

be so sweet … This is what feminism was always about, and now, after three waves, the chickens are going to come home to roost. Because feminism never was about anything but creating tax paying, laboring, consuming, bleeding and dying servants to the masters of corporatocracy.

They lured women in with visions of corner offices and autonomy, and now that they have fully taken the bait, the doors are going to be slammed behind them and locked. They will be left to languish in their “freedom” as corporate wage slaves, and when needed they will be forced to contribute to the rivers of blood required to keep it going.

NOW and others will likely succeed in keeping the last part “optional” for while, but it won’t last.

The grand daughters of today’s college woman is as fucked as any man in history.

To which every feminist I know would say: bring it on. Feminists are well aware that equality, along with its many benefits, brings certain costs.  Putting more women into combat roles means, inevitably, that more women will be injured or killed. The feminists supporting the Pentagon’s decision are aware of this. Unlike many MRAs, though, they look at combat injuries and deaths as one of the sad but inevitable consequences of war — not as something to rub anyone’s face into.

Here’s a hint to any MRAs who think that either AVFM or the more blatantly sadistic commenter quoted by Fidelbogen has a point: Civil Rights activism is about uplifting everyone, not making others “pay.”

When the American civil rights movement took up the issue of voting rights, civil rights activists demanded that black people be allowed to vote without harassment or other obstacles like “literacy tests” standing in their way.

Civil rights activists didn’t demand that whites be kept from voting.

The Civil Rights movement called for historically all-white colleges to be opened up to blacks. It didn’t call for white people to be banned from these colleges too.

This is how you can tell that the Men’s Rights movement, as it stands today, is not a true civil rights movement. Because insofar as it is about anything other than complaining about (and sometimes harassing) feminists and women in general, it’s about tearing down rather than building up.

Instead of trying to build domestic violence shelters and other services for men, for example, the MRM is more interested in defunding shelters for women – even when their efforts in this area directly harm male victims.

It’s telling that when Father’s Rights activist Glenn Sacks had an issue with the advertisements being run by one DV shelter, he encouraged his followers to bombard the shelter’s donors with phone calls in order to cripple the shelter’s fundraising efforts – even though the shelter in question also provides services for men. It’s telling as well that MRAs rail endlessly against the Violence Against Women Act, and have celebrated Republican opposition to it – even though the act is officially gender neutral in everything but its name, and would provide funding for men’s shelters if MRAs got off their asses to build any.

Instead of fighting for the rights of male victims of rape, the Men’s Rights movement is more interested in downplaying the rape of women, wildly exaggerating the number of “false rape accusations,” and in endless discussions about whether or not having sex with women incapacitated with drinks or drugs is really rape. All of these things contribute to a “rape culture” that harms male victims of rape as well as female.

Not that most MRAs actually care about male victims of rape except as a debating point — perhaps because that would require acknowledging that the overwhelming majority of their rapists are other men.  (MRAs do get outraged in the rare cases in which women are the culprits.) The group that does more than any other to fight for male rape victims is the anti-prison rape group Just Detention. Try to find even a mention of this group on any of the leading Men’s Rights sites. (The only mention of the group on AVFM is a comment in a post attacking a feminist writer noting that it isn’t part of the Men’s Rights movement.)

There are endless other examples, because this is in essence the way that the so-called “Men’s Rights” movement does business.

When you take a certain pleasure in the notion of women being “made to pay” or otherwise harmed when they seek equality, you’re about as much of a civil rights movement as the Klan.

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Posted on January 26, 2013, in a voice for men, antifeminism, are these guys 12 years old?, douchebaggery, feminism, gloating, hate, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, princesses, reactionary bullshit, taking pleasure in women's pain, the spearhead, women in combat and tagged , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 1,143 Comments.

  1. “In some hypothetical world where the draft still existed in the United States, allowing women to be drafted would not mean that the overall number of people drafted would increase. The same number of people would still end up being drafted, it’s just that that same number would include both men and women.”

    Interesting point, I don’t necessarily accept the bounds of this scenario though. Why is it necessarily that the same amount of people will be sent to fight and die? If women could have been drafted during Vietnam do you not think it is possible if not likely there would have been more people over there?

  2. To tie this in to the other thread, this is part of the reason why I love SBS so much – they’re a perfect example of how do to political work that’s based on practical ideas rather than rhetoric, and they’ve never had any patience with dumb kids who refuse to deal with reality.

  3. “Or, to put it another way – the recent decision to open combat positions to women? That probably wouldn’t have happened if feminists hadn’t put forward the argument that as long as there’s registration it should apply to women too.”

    This is really a different argument altogether. I have not argued against asserting this as a position for political reasons, only argued with the position itself.

  4. (Not to suggest that all young people are as dumb as Cassie – we have several young activists here who understand how to do politics.)

  5. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Cassie, you’re saying that only men should be drafted when there is a draft. That’s what you call minimising human rights violations. It’s what the rest of us call sexism.

    It isn’t that fucking difficult to understand.

    And given that this ENTIRE ARTICLE is about opening combat positions to women, wtf are you blathering about a nonexistent draft anyway?

  6. Cassie, why are you here? If it’s just to JAQ off and devil’s advocate, kindly fuck off.

  7. And given that this ENTIRE ARTICLE is about opening combat positions to women, wtf are you blathering about a nonexistent draft anyway?

    Because outraged trolling is fun!

  8. Even more fun when you don’t know a thing about what you’re outraged about!

    God, I wonder what she actually knows about socialism.

  9. The flailing is starting to remind me of the bit with the fish in this video.

  10. Lol, I am far far far from being a MRA, just because I disagree with you doesn’t mean I agree with them, that is a false dichotomy.

    *ahem*

    This is MRA logic101

    Progressives should nto be arguing that the draft should apply to women as well, leave that to the MRAs and other regressive types.

    It is the exact same argument and it is the argument a MRA would make.

    It’s almost like you’re a giant hypocrite or something!

    And then there’s this:

    “OMG feminists disagreeing. Have I broken from the hivemind? Does this mean I have to self-distruct?”

    I’m a socialist actually

    And? They’re not mutually exclusive. Or is this going to turn into some “class is the only oppression that matters” bullshit?

  11. Or is this going to turn into some “class is the only oppression that matters” bullshit?

    Gah, I hope not. So tedious.

  12. thebewilderness

    The draft was a lottery system. When a certain number of bodies were needed they started with the low numbers and worked their way through. There were still people registered who were not called up when the troop draw down began.
    Therefore Cassies absurd argument is invalid.

  13. thebewilderness

    And stupid.

  14. thebewilderness

    Read an effing history book, Cassie! Criminy!

  15. Translation: I don’t want to be naked in front of women and I don’t want them to be naked in front of me.

    A while back I was talking to a Swedish friend of mine about the movie Starship Troopers, in particular the shower scene where all the troops are just going about their business as if it’s the most natural thing in the world. He said that in the Swedish army (where it’s compulsory service for both men and women) that that is what it’s like. No leering, just comradery. Admittedly this is just his impression of it, and the Swedes are known for being cool with nudity. But Australians are rather more prudish, and army guys I know are totally fine with nuding up when they are out field.

    After this experiment runs its course, how many men will have died while bringing tampon supplies up to the front?

    And what about the people who have died to bring razors to the front? Because male soldiers are still expected to shave while they are working.

  16. On the nudity issue, I’d imagine that it would freak a lot of people out initially, but the thing is that people are adaptable. If soldiers can get used to marching for long periods with heavy equipment and people shooting at them, they can get used to seeing boobs/dangly bits in public areas.

  17. @the Kitteh’s

    “Cassie, you’re saying that only men should be drafted when there is a draft. That’s what you call minimising human rights violations. It’s what the rest of us call sexism.”

    No, I am saying nobody should be, but it should not be extended if you consider it to be a human right’s violation. It is like arguing men should get paid as low as women, rather than the other way around.

    “And given that this ENTIRE ARTICLE is about opening combat positions to women, wtf are you blathering about a nonexistent draft anyway?”

    It was mentioned in the OP and I wanted to address it.

  18. @ Emily Goddess

    “It’s almost like you’re a giant hypocrite or something!”

    Where am I hypocritical?

    “And? They’re not mutually exclusive. Or is this going to turn into some “class is the only oppression that matters” bullshit?”

    I never claimed they were mutually exclusive, I claimed that I was not a feminist but in fact a socialist. They are not mutually inclusive either.

  19. “The draft was a lottery system. When a certain number of bodies were needed they started with the low numbers and worked their way through. There were still people registered who were not called up when the troop draw down began.”

    This is true, but as it stands now men are required to register when enrolling to vote and women are not. So I don’t understand how that negates my argument at all.

  20. There are a lot of men in the US. There were a lot of people killed in Vietnam, but it’s not like America was running out of male soldiers. Adding women to the draft wouldn’t have increased the total number of American conscripts killed, it would have just meant that some of them would have been women.

    Maybe we should ignore Cassie so she’ll get bored and go be stupid somewhere else?

  21. thebewilderness

    Your rather idiotic claim that more peeps would have been sent to Nam if women were drafted.
    Yanno, the one right there at the top of this page you are on? Criminy!

  22. Cassie, go learn something. Men have to register within 30 days of their 18th birthday, not when they register to vote. Get at least part of your halfbaked arguments right.

    You keep bring up human rights (look, no apostrophe) violation. Is that what you think registering for the draft is? I don’t recall any of us calling it that, we just said that yes, it should be extended to everyone if it’s not abolished.

  23. “There are a lot of men in the US. There were a lot of people killed in Vietnam, but it’s not like America was running out of male soldiers. Adding women to the draft wouldn’t have increased the total number of American conscripts killed, it would have just meant that some of them would have been women.”

    Quite possibly yes, but this is just speculation. For me to accept the position that it wouldn’t mean an increase in body count I need a little more than that.

    Additionally I think it is a seperate argument altogether, as I am talking foremost about the registration to the draft rather than war itself.

  24. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Fucking hell you’re being stupid.

    “No, I am saying nobody should be, but it should not be extended if you consider it to be a human right’s violation.”

    That is saying that if it exists, it should stay as it is: for men only. Which is sexism. Didn’t you read the bit about how the draft being extended to women doesn’t mean more people overall get drafted, only that there are more eligible candidates?

  25. thebewilderness: Cassie’s a goldfish, every time she hits “post,” it’s a brand new thread. She doesn’t know we can scroll up, none of our trolls do.

  26. I know Cassie thinks she is making an argument, but I don’t see one — at least not one that is cogent. I’m fine with ignoring.

  27. I’m starting to wonder if dum-dum’s argument is basically “well obviously I shouldn’t be eligible for the draft”

  28. “Your rather idiotic claim that more peeps would have been sent to Nam if women were drafted.”

    Oh right, no you misinterpreted. I was saying that it was a possibility that more people would be conscripted if both men and women were required to register.

    I have not yet adopted a position in regards to that, I don’t think that it would increase body count, decrease body count or that it would be the same amount. It is just speculation on all sides.

  29. Quite possibly yes, but this is just speculation. For me to accept the position that it wouldn’t mean an increase in body count I need a little more than that.

    LIKE WHAT? A BRAIN?

    You brought that up, then shifted goalposts yet again with your “but I was talking about registering” shit.

    Fuck off.

  30. “I’m starting to wonder if dum-dum’s argument is basically “well obviously I shouldn’t be eligible for the draft”

    I live in Australia, we do not have the draft for men or women here.

  31. “You brought that up, then shifted goalposts yet again with your “but I was talking about registering” shit. ”

    Sorry no, I didn’t bring it up I was responding to someones assertion that body count would definitely be the same.

  32. I mean, gee, if you start forcing women to serve on juries, obviously juries would swell to 24 people (plus alternates). Also, clearly registering women for the draft would lead to a higher body count even if there was no war.

    You can’t prove it’s NOT true.

  33. Cassie, we’re not misinterpreting you, you are not communicating clearly. You do not have an argument, try again.

    No, don’t. You might hurt yourself.

  34. IDK, Cassie, maybe the part where you come stomping in here comparing everyone to MRAs, then piss and moan when someone does it to you?

  35. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    “Additionally I think it is a seperate argument altogether, as I am talking foremost about the registration to the draft rather than war itself.”

    So what the fuck are you getting so het up about “human rights violations” when it’s basically signing a piece of paper that you’ll never have to act upon? Here’s a hypothetical for ya: do you think it’s a human rights violation that Australians are expected to vote once they’ve signed onto the electoral roll? Because seriously, that has more importance and relevance to our lives than the remote possibility of getting drafted has for these 18 year olds in the US. We vote every four years federally; are we being terribly abused by being expected to go along and fill in a form (actually just get our names crossed off the list) and fined if we don’t?

    Seems to me you’ve chosen an odd subject to focus on as a terrible human rights abuse.

  36. thebewilderness

    I see that, hellkell. The numbers are speculation because they are mere facts.

  37. Quite possibly yes, but this is just speculation. For me to accept the position that it wouldn’t mean an increase in body count I need a little more than that.

    So this is an anti-feminist troll, right? The only way that statement makes any sense is if you start from the assumption that female soldiers would be less competent than male soldiers.

  38. Agh, damn you fast-typing people! I was responding to “where am I hypocritical?”, in case that wasn’t clear.

  39. You know who Cassie reminds me of? Those people who oppose legalizing gay marriage because they think the institution of marriage should be abolished entirely.

  40. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Oh fuck this – Cassie, you’re from here? Then what the fuck are you getting your knickers in a a twist over the US situation for? Christ on a pogo stick, you’re embarrassing. Go play at an Australia day kindergarten picnic or something.

  41. “I mean, gee, if you start forcing women to serve on juries, obviously juries would swell to 24 people (plus alternates).

    That is not directly analogous, in a jury we have a set number of seats to fill, in war it is more up the decisions of the higher ups, than something set in stone.

    “Also, clearly registering women for the draft would lead to a higher body count even if there was no war.”

    I never stated it would definitely lead to a higher body count, just that it could.

    “You can’t prove it’s NOT true.”

    I stated nothing of the sort, What I actually stated was if you think it necessarily wouldn’t lead to a higher body count present evidence.

  42. I have not yet adopted a position in regards to eating glitter, I don’t think that eating glitter would increase overall health, decrease overall health, or overall health would be the same. It is just speculation on all sides. But it would be a human rights violation to make women, as well as men, take up crafting.

  43. “You know who Cassie reminds me of? Those people who oppose legalizing gay marriage because they think the institution of marriage should be abolished entirely.”

    That is not analogous unless you think being required to register for the draft is a right people should have rather than a burden.

  44. Giving Cassie the benefit of the doubt for a minute, there is a way to phrase her arguments that does make sense. Correct me if I’m wrong please Cassie.

    “If you believe that something is wrong (eg the draft) and it only applies to a subsection of people, and if you are going to put energy into activism, then your activism should be against the wrong thing, not against the unfair way it’s applied.”

    But she’s ignoring the fact that even if you see something as wrong, if enough other people don’t, then it is a much more efficient use of energy to target the unfairness.

    She is comparing single-sex draft to segregation, when it could just as easily be compared to the issue of same-sex marriage.

  45. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    We have citizenship ceremonies on Australia Day … there’s got to be a ceremony for disowning the terminally stupid, though that’d wipe out most of Parliament at the same time (yes Bob Katter I’m looking at you).

  46. “I have not yet adopted a position in regards to eating glitter, I don’t think that eating glitter would increase overall health, decrease overall health, or overall health would be the same. It is just speculation on all sides.”

    I’m sure evidence could be found to support a position over the others. In regards to body count, please present this evidence.

  47. Gosh I go, download, and LAN play Torchlight II and come back to this.

    Can we get one thing clear: the draft is Not As Good as having a professional military. For one thing, there is some evidence that conscripted soldiers tend to purposely miss their targets. For another thing, many of the roles in a modern military, including the specific tasks in the deployment, require a lot of training, and that training also needs to be refreshed. So having people on the draft, who then get called into service increases the time to deployment because they all need (1) refresher training and (2) new training where tactics and equipment have changed.

    The MRAs act like everyone in deployment is just a rifleman. That is not the case. Just yet another area they have no clue on, but pontificate.

    So, a number of reasons why the draft isn’t such a shit hot idea.

  48. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    But it would be a human rights violation to make women, as well as men, take up crafting.

    MRAs should totes be forced to take up crafting.

  49. So, what’s everyone having for dinner/did you have for dinner?

    (Attempting to redirect to a topic that’s more fun than watching Cassie show her rhetorical ass.)

  50. “Oh fuck this – Cassie, you’re from here? Then what the fuck are you getting your knickers in a a twist over the US situation for?”

    Because I care about people and their lives and their rights even if they do not share the same geographical location as me.

    Do you think I should stop caring that planned parenthood has been stripped of funding? That anti-abortion laws are spreading across america? Just because I don’t live there? Ridiculous argument.

  51. Dumb as a box of hair, this one.

  52. I officially object to this attempt to make me take up crafting. I’m lazy, and glitter is impossible to get rid of.

  53. Dinner? Arugula and shaved parmesan with olive oil/lemon juice dressing. Corn & zucchini enchilada.

  54. ““If you believe that something is wrong (eg the draft) and it only applies to a subsection of people, and if you are going to put energy into activism, then your activism should be against the wrong thing, not against the unfair way it’s applied.”

    To some extent yes, but additionally that applying an unfair thing to everyone doesn’t make that unfair thing fair, it just means more people are suffering.

    “She is comparing single-sex draft to segregation, when it could just as easily be compared to the issue of same-sex marriage.”

    No it couldn’t. Marriage isn’t an unfair thing, it is a legal right.

  55. I’m about to make a stir fry with chicken, kabocha, and choy sum.

  56. Including women in the draft is a pretty decent tactic for trying to get rid of it altogether, I think. Once something shitty applies to everyone then people are more likely to vote against it.

    But, don’t let me derail the glitter thread! :D

  57. My beer bread has finished. and we’re having vegetarian burritos.

  58. I should make more stir fries. They’re so quick, and I am lazy — what a good combination.

  59. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Cassie, how about actually doing your own goddamn research instead of the MRA trick of sitting back all primly saying “show me the figures!” You’re looking lazy as well as ignorant.

    You know the difference between being angry at the stuff happening with Planned Parenthood and attacks on women generally in US policy, and this? The former are real and this isn’t. You’re rabbitting on about nonsense, and it looks even more stupid when you’re doing so a) as an outsider and b) without having done any sort of basic groundwork. You know jack shit about the situation and are arguing with people who live in the US and know what they’re talking about. It makes you look like an idiotic child.

  60. I made red snapper with this yummy Asian-ish marinade — my mom hates fish, but can tolerate it as long as it’s not identifiably fish, so very flavorful sauces are where it’s at. :p

  61. I used to make a great beer bread that you’d bake inside a large tin can. It had roasted garlic in it. I wonder what happened to that recipe?

  62. I ATE IT.

  63. “Including women in the draft is a pretty decent tactic for trying to get rid of it altogether, I think. Once something shitty applies to everyone then people are more likely to vote against it.”

    This may be the case, but I don’t think so in this particular instance, most men don’t take the registration seriously probably most women would not either.

  64. It’s funny, for a while I thought that I hated fish because I was at boarding school and they kept serving it to me in butter, cheese, or milk based sauces. Then I was in San Francisco and Mr C’s Chinese housemate brought home some fish in garlic/ginger sauce and I was all, oh, I guess I do still like fish after all.

  65. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    “it just means more people are suffering”

    Want to tell me who exactly is suffering because American teenage boys have to register for the draft, and who will suffer if girls do too? Seriously, I didn’t know wielding a pen was so damn painful.

  66. Dinner was for four of us at a Thai restaurant. We shared red curry, chu chee eggplant, pad prik paow, and pad si ew. It was hotter than usual, so I’m glad we had the pad si ew – it was the only thing besides the rice that wasn’t scorching.

  67. RIDDLE: There’s this thing, a thing that men don’t take seriously, and women don’t either, but it would be a huge human rights violation to extend this thing to cover more people.

    WHAT IS THIS THING?

  68. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    ” most men don’t take the registration seriously probably most women would not either”

    So something this trivial to the people going through it is suffering and human rights violations how, again?

  69. @ Kittehs

    Also, registration is something so trivial that people don’t take it seriously, yet extending it to women would cause SUFFERING.

    I call troll.

  70. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    cloudiah – I know! The answer is “listening to Cassie!”

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