“Nice Guys” on parade
So, “Nice Guys” are causing a stir on the Internet again, thanks largely to a new(ish) Tumblr blog called “Nice Guys” of Ok Cupid, which posts selected highlights from the OKCupid profiles of self-proclaimed “nice guys” who make it very clear, in their profiles and in their answers to OKCupid’s “match” questions, that they are in fact anything but nice.
Some of them are actual or potential date rapists, convinced that women that they’re “nice” to owe them sex. Others are bitter from too many rejections, and launch long tirades in their profiles about how women are bitches and whores. Still others are clueless on a more fundamental level, declaring that women have “an obligation to shave their legs” and otherwise prettify themselves for men while noting that they themselves only shower or brush their teeth occasionally.
It’s not clear how any of this is supposed to convince the women of OKCupid that these angry, ranting, hapless-yet-entitled “nice guys” are indeed as “nice” as advertised, much less convince any rational human being to have sex with them.
The site is a goldmine of unintentional self-revelation — as is a similar site with the name of, er, OKCupid Goldmine — and I’ve spent hours looking through the pictures on both sites and discussing them with friends. The only reason I haven’t linked to it in the past is that neither of them blur out the faces of the people they feature, which seems to me a pretty major invasion of privacy. (As you no doubt have noticed, I’ve taken the liberty of somewhat creeepily disguising the faces of the guys in the pics I’m posting here.) But “Nice Guys of OKCupid has been pretty widely discussed, linked to by Jezebel (1, 2) and The Guardian and even the Men’s Rights subreddit, to mention merely a few examples; Ok Cupid Goldmine is also provoking discussions. Posts on both sites regularly get dozens if not hundreds of comments and reblogs on Tumblr. The cat’s already out of the bag.
Here are a couple more of these “Nice Guys” with their faces all spiral-ized:
Posted on January 4, 2013, in creep-shaming, creepy, douchebaggery, entitled babies, hypocrisy, incoherent rage, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, nice guys, rape, rapey and tagged misogyny, nice guys, okcupid, rape, rape apology. Bookmark the permalink. 1,346 Comments.
Grumbles: I want you to want to shave your legs. I don’t want someone who grudgingly does it for my sake; I want someone who enjoys the feeling of having smooth legs. I want someone who legitimately enjoys a lot of the same things I do, not someone who feigns interest to keep me happy.
Are hairy legs a deal-breaker for you?
She doesn’t have to ask. Already done.
lumi: pecunium, I have lurked here a long time and have grown to respect the regulars, including you . I just see someone (Grumbles) being attacked for what seems to me a reasonable opinion. Perhaps there is history I missed.
There is some history, but the issue before is that he’s being dishonest about the role of the question, and disingenuous about why he answers it the way he does.
Wow, lumi managed to read my comment pretty much exactly backwards. That was dumb.
I get what you’re saying, Kitteh’s Unpaid Help. The problem isn’t that Grumbles has a preference, but the way he talks about it, right?
“She doesn’t have to ask. Already done.”
Well, all righty then.
The real question is will he change something he doesn’t do now… like shave his legs; and wear shorts.
I disagree with pecunium (and possibly others) in that I don’t actually care if a specific man has a preference for shaved legs and would in general be less attracted to a woman who didn’t shave hers*. It’s the idea that doing so is obligatory for all women that I have a problem with.
*With the caveat that reasonable people understand that hair growth is a thing that happens and that even people who prefer to keep themselves shaven/trimmed/whatever will not look like that all the time.
I know that people here have to be on constant alert for trolls, but I agree with almost everything posted/commented here. I’ll go back to lurking now.
Yeah, lumi, he’s not upfront about it. It seems dishonest to avoid answering it (and clarifying what he means) and then announce that unshaven legs are a deal-breaker later on. Even if he said “obligated to shave if dating me” it would be more honest. For that matter it would make things crystal clear. If I were dating, I’d dismiss a guy who said that instantly, which would be better than maybe having a conversation and finding out later that oh, I’m required to do things to my body that he prefers. It’s not like we’re talking basic hygiene here.
Hmm, ok. Grumbles, would you shave your chest then sport tank tops if your gf asked you to?
@lumi
You don’t have to go back to lurking. I don’t think you’re a troll, I just think you missed Grumbles’ previous appearnaces and haven’t (or hadn’t) thought it through.
Well, except his own.
I’d say that if you have a strong personal preference for shaven whatever but aren’t ridiculous enough to expect every person of your preferred gender to conform to it then the smart thing to do is what Kitteh suggested – answer “No” and then put something explanatory in the comment section. Or just deal with the question of whether or not a specific person is going to be a match for you in that sense once you actually start talking to them/meet them.
Like, I have a strong preference for men who aren’t hairy, but I don’t think all the men in the world should de-fuzz themselves just because that happens to be what I like. So if there was a questions about, say, hairy chests for women I’d answer “no” and then figure out whether or not I’m likely to be attracted to a particular dude later.
That being said, I’ve dated a dude who did have a hairy chest in the past and I was fine with it because I found him super attractive in all kinds of other ways. So “in general I really prefer shaved legs” seems perfectly reasonable to me, but “I would never, ever date a woman who didn’t shave her legs no matter how attractive I found her in other ways” does seem a little weird to me, if the person genuinely can’t imagine ever making a single exception.
Thanks, some gal. I’m just feeling frustrated because I love this blog and really want to fit in but it seems like one mistake and you’re done.
Look, all women have to shave their bloody legs in our culture, and way the frig more now adays (thanks a bunch porn) so that preference question is really a tricker. Grumbles may like silky smooth shaven legs in much the same way women may like a shaven beard, but the social pressure to shave beards aren’t quite the same as to shave legs- you can be sexually desirable as a beardo, but society pretty much has vetoed leg hair. So just don’t frig around with that question. Obviously no one has an obligation to shave their legs, but in the little added comment dohickey OKcupid provides, specify that’s what you prefer. And no one on okcupid who’s filled dozens of those dumb ass questions out sees the word ‘obligation’ and thinks ‘preference’. They make every effort in the world to get you to write more and clarify yourself, at length.
@lumi
If you aren’t comfortable, then you obviously should let it go, but if you are comfortable enough to join in, I think that would be nice. This is rough and tumble, but getting called out doesn’t mean that no one will ever listen again. It just means that we disagreed once. (Patterns are a bigger deal, but I see no reason to suspect that at this point.)
@ttf
Like I said earlier, I think he’s just pissy that the OKC system builds in ways to test for sexism. That’s not fair to men who are sexist!
Oral is impossible on a woman who doesn’t trim well.
@Cassandra
Did I not already make it perfectly clear that I don’t think all women everywhere should be this way or that?
As for exceptions, I can make an exception for the whole heterosexual thing, but it would have be a pretty damn exceptional guy.
@Diogenes
Only someone who lacks skill would say that. I have had oral performed on me in all States of grooming and it depended on the guy, not the hair.
@Grumbles
Why are you avoiding my questions?
Oral sex didn’t happen in the 70s! Ever. This has been today’s edition of Diogenes Is A Dumbass.
Grumbles – nice attempt at dodging the point, but you weren’t quite able to pull it off.
Talking about the shaving thing, my 13-yr old daughter refuses to shave anything despite the pressure from her older sister and (in the summer) her grandma. I grew up with people telling me what I had to do to be pretty, and so refused to do the same with them. My mom knows now that talk about weight is not allowed, but she hasn’t got the message to not nag about armpit caterpillars. I bought them makeup only when they asked for it, and let them cut or dye their hair as they choose.
But my oldest is naturally the kind of person who wants to fit in and do what society dictates. I just smile and let her choose her choice. She’s happy being conventional, just as her sister is happy rebelling.
Yet I still grab the razor every other day. Cultural conditioning is a bitch.
Some Gal
It does depend on the guy, but only insofar as he is able to handle his partners hygiene.
I seriously don’t like the sensation of coarse hair on my…..face.
A friend of mine actually has a script just for things like that.
“Grandma is a wonderful person and she loves you and only means the best for you, but there are some things that she’s very old-fashioned about. If something she tells you doesn’t seem right to you, just come talk to me about it.”
Diogenes could single-handedly end the prevalence of pubic hair removal or trimming.
@ Cassandra- missed it when you said it the first time- sounds highly likely.
@lumi
I wish my mom had let me make those decisions for myself. I was desperate to try shaving, but “too young” and ended up stealing a razor and doing the damn thing dry. I probably never would have done it again for years if not for peer pressure.
LOL at oral being “impossible” if a woman (but only a woman?) isn’t well-trimmed. Just LOL. Because apparently long pubes have spiny barbs that will rip the skin off your face? Or they secrete an acid that paralyzes your facial muscles? I’m trying to figure out how they actually make the act impossible.
Diogenes – believe it or not, “hair” does not mean “unclean”. And why is it so difficult for you to simply say “My preference is such-and-such” instead of trying to make it some sort of universal rule? Do you just have some sort of “any attention is better than none” fetish that makes you say stupid shit to get a reaction?
Seriously, Diogenes, a man who would be dissuaded from performing cunnilingus due to hair is either really immature or not totally into having sex with her in the first place.
Also, my pussy hair is only coarse when growing out from a recent shave or wax, otherwise it’s as silky as the hair on my head (Mileage may vary)
It is impossible to kiss a man with a beard.
It is impossible to apply underarm deodourant to anyone with underarm hair.
It is impossible to pull socks on over feet with any hair on them.
It is impossible to pet a long-haired cat.
My mum was totally “do whatever you want” about all that stuff. Luckily for me the grandmother that I was close to is also totally chilled out and reasonable about most things.
cloudiah, I’m loving the barbs and acid imagery. They’d go perfectly with a vagina dentata.
::laughs evilly::
I grow my pubes super long, but I braid them in ornate patterns*. Is there an OKC question for that?
*I do not actually do this, but now I’m thinking about it.
It is extra impossible to snuggle a long-haired cat with your face. This is why my face is covered in terrible lacerations and I spend every day at the ER.
DING DING DING we have a winner!
Only if you include decorative beads in the braiding.
@cloudiah
So many possibilities!
I’m thinking of doing mine in a basket-weave wrap-around so I don’t have to wear knickers every day.
A friend and I once wrote a whole story about a Southern family whose sons had run ins with a score of scary women — my favorite was named Vengina Dentata. True story. I’ll have to see if she still has it.
Confession: I have braided my pubes. It is easier than braiding head hair as long as there’s enough hair that you aren’t pulling it too much. That is because my long pubic hair is pretty silky. (I don’t wear it or anything like that, but I have done it.)
@SomeGal
I missed your question in the midst of others’ posts. But I’m not sure how leg shaving would be the same as movies. Of course people can like lots of different movies, but I don’t know how there would be similar scenario with leg shaving, unless you’re talking about someone who likes to shave sometimes but prefers being hairy other times.
@Cassandra Says – that is very wise. My mom has a weird thing about her weight, and so I have food issues too because she couldn’t help passing them on. Making a conscious effort to do better by my daughters also requires recognizing where toxic messages come from and stopping them without vilifying the messenger.
BAhahahahahha!! There was someone out there who thinks it’s impossible to do oral on an untrimmed women? Oh mercy and good heavens- when I was a wee lass and men were men they used to plow through a veritable thicket to get the job done, and they never complained. Kids these days, with their waxing and whining about how hard everything is and why can’t women just shave everything if they want sexual reciprocation- look, you are in or you’re out. If you are not into sex with a lady with a flaming bush, quietly stand in a corner and cry about it. If you’re in, welcome to the grown-ups club!
Sometimes I just brush my looooooong pubes off to the side with an ornate hair comb.
grumbles, you like shaved legs, that’s fine- find yourself a crowd that agrees with you and pat yourselves on the back about how right you are for that preference. You will find no friends here.
Look, thats the standard today.
You shower regularly, wash hands several times a day, etc. Its in the basics of taking care of yourself. Not that I think every woman has to shave her legs, but wearing shorts with hairy legs is the social equivalent of not showering for a week.
As for me, I pluck, shave, trim, dilapidate, and use a razor regularly. I do it because I want to be attractive to women. And as for a couple? Yeah, I think its ok for partners to express preferences, and for them to accommodate one another as well. That goes both ways.
@ Cloudiah- corn row that shit- it’s great practice for when you have to corn row the back of your head.
Some Gal — cool! Send me tips. XD
TTF — I’m picturing guys hacking their way through a dense, spiny blackberry bush.
@Grumbles
Read the whole damn thread. This is like talking to someone who claims he did the homework and the dog ate it. (Hint: I am. I am that person. I doubt I am that uncommon.)
@ lumi
Yeah, it’s not like you don’t (in most cases) want your kids to have a close relationship with their grandparents, but that does mean that sometimes you have to gently intervene when they’re trying to pass on some of their more unhelpful ideas. I had to intervene because Mr C’s mom was making his nephew cry a couple of times (her idea of discipline is berating kids by telling them what terrible people they are, not super helpful when the kid in question is 4).
@ ttf
Dudes like our clueless friend make me want to tell people that I have a bush like a jungle, complete with large predatory animals and singing lizards, just to get them to go away.
@ Cynic- nope, it’s a sexual norm, not a hygienic norm. Scrape every hair off your body if you like, but don’t expect everyone to follow suit without a big fight, because it’s a royal pain in the ass with the most dumbest of motivators- to please one’s manfriend. My man friend can bite my long, flowing rectal hairs.
Key difference is that you aren’t licking your cat. At least I hope you aren’t, because your human tongue isn’t made for grooming cat fur.
lol
And you think I have any interest in you?
It’s a trollsplosion!
Hair is unhygenic, folks. We should all shave our heads right now lest strangers think that we don’t bathe.
@Diogenes
No, I agree. Have you seen how many unhygenic dudes there are around these days?
The only truly attractive woman is one with alopecia universalis, apparently.
Diogenes: too bad you can’t pluck and trim your personality into something more attractive to anyone.
Here’s something more interesting than Dingleberry’s thought on pubes. Our new kitteh:
http://www.austinpetsalive.org/adopt/available-cat-details/?ID=17236168#
Trip won’t be his name. More pics when I get off my dead ass and get batteries.
timetraveling
Wait, so you don’t think pleasing your partner is important?
Seriously? Both sides gotta reciprocate. You better believe it that when I’m with a girl, and she prefers me in French cuffs to regular shirts, I’ll wear those more often. Short beard vs. long? If she thinks one is more attractive than the other, thats what she gets. I don’t know what type of relationships you have, but I think its totally cool for partners to accommodate one another.
OMG did anyone catch this?
DtD “As for me, I pluck, shave, trim, dilapidate, and use a razor regularly.”
Dilapidate. DILAPIDATE.
::dies::
Diogenes: Like when you’re with a girl is a thing that happens.
Kitty is adorable! If you could record her meows they’d be a lot more interesting than anything Frothy r Grumbles have said so far too.
There was no verb form that I can think of. What should I have written?
hellkell he’s beautiful!!!!!
hellkell
Certainly I have been cut to the quick.
My fragile ego has been shattered. I will cry myself to sleep tonight.
It’s “depilate,” moron. But I would believe you’re all run down and busted.
Diogenes, the word is DEPILATE. Dilapidation is having fallen into disrepair.
@Diogenes
Funny, the examples you give are of doing something MORE OFTEN not all the time and of already limiting the choices before asking. Do you not see how you expect to be accommodated differently than you are willing to accommodate?