Happy Damn New Year!
Happy New Year! I’ve spent the day so far lazing around, eating leftover pizza and listening to music. And that’s about all I’m going to do, I think.
I’ll be back at work blogging tomorrow.
In the meantime, does anyone have any especially fond memories of Tom Martin and/or Steele from the past year?
Oh, and here’s a video from an Old School New Wave band called Polyphonic Size. It was 1983. They were from Belgium.
Posted on January 1, 2013, in off topic, open thread. Bookmark the permalink. 482 Comments.
@hellkell
Thank you. I wasn’t expecting that. It means a lot.
Can we please just forget it? I realized I am wrong and I don’t want to fight with any of you. I’m sorry.
?????
And who is to say that this girl – who presumably, having had abstinence-only education, is in a religous household – doesn’t have an entirely different view of death? Do you believe in an afterlife, Starla? Is death extinction in your mind? What if this child (I will keep repeating that she’s a child even if it never gets through) had been brought up to believe that “good” people go to Heaven and live happily ever after? She would be even less likely to see death the same way as you do.
NB please note, all, I am NOT implying that belief in an afterlife = not being concerned about death, or murder in particular. I’m suggesting it might be a factor in how a child thinks about it.
why did I write NB and please note …
… my brain hurts
I’m not necessarily recommending it in this case, but for some juvenile offenders, it would be great if the “punishment”/sentencing was just a new family and therapy.
“Ive come to like it here and I don’t want to start any more problems.”
Perhaps we could discuss how to prevent this instead of how to punish her and how wrong killing babies is?
And frankly, discussing how horrible it is to kill a neonate is a bit too close to playing “how late of an abortion is too late” — as my best friend noted, women who abort in the third trimester have other shit going on besides simply wanting to kill their fetus (eg abuse or unable to access abortion sooner). This kid, because she was a kid, had other shit going on.
@argenti,
While I may not have said it sooner I do agree with you that more informative sex Ed could’ve prevented this whole thing. I’ve long known that some people would rather ignore the fact that their children could be having sex than teach them what they need to know to keep them from potentially ruining their lives.
“why did I write NB and please note …
… my brain hurts”
Blame me, I must’ve broken your Latin.
Starla, then why have we spent a page discussing ow to punish her and how ring it is to kill babies?
@ argenti
Because I got emotional and let those emotions get the better of me. If I owe anyone an apology it’s definitely you, I’m sorry.
LOL my Latin is confined to a few common phrases and some snippets from Latin For All Occasions anyway! (Have you ever seen that? It’s really funny. Henry Beard wrote it, he of Poetry for Cats.)
“Because I got emotional and let those emotions get the better of me. If I owe anyone an apology it’s definitely you, I’m sorry.”
I’m not the one whose questions you kept avoiding, but thank you all the same.
Kitteh — I have not, I’m finding it as a book, but “have you seen that” implies a film o.O? What should I be looking for?
Sorry, I should have said “read” or “heard of it”! Definitely a book. There are some quotations from it here.
Henry Beard wrote my all-time favourite poetic work – Hamlet’s Cat’s Soliloquy by William Shakespeare’s Cat. :)
There was actually a rash of women killing babies in (I think) the 15th or 16th centuries in Europe, basically because they wanted to commit suicide but didn’t want to go to hell. So they picked baptized children to kill, since then (a) the child would be assured of going to heaven, and (b) they themselves would be able to confess and repent before being executed so they thought of it as a win-win situation for all involved.
Just for your “people at different places and different times sure think about things differently” file.
Oh so that’s the source of “Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum!” Nice!
@argenti
I’ve been meaning to ask you, what does your name mean?
…and this is where treating suicide as a sin gets us… *sigh*
“Heus, modo itera omnia quae mihi nunc nuper narravisti, sed nunc Anglice?”
“Listen, would you repeat everything you just told me, only this time say it in English?”
We totally need this to throw at Steele.
Argenti is Latin for silver, Aertheri is a typo’ed version of aether, the root for ether. Roughly, silver mist. Aer // aether is actually air, sort of.
I liked the typo, it’s easier to say XD
Kitteh — Omnia mihi lingua graeca sunt — It’s all Greek to me
And because there hasn’t been a kitty derail yet, and because I cannot resist, here is Hamlet’s Cat’s Soliloquy, by William Shakespeare’s Cat:
To go outside, and there perchance to stay
Or to remain within: that is the question:
Whether ’tis better for a cat to suffer
The cuffs and buffets of inclement weather
That Nature rains on those who roam abroad,
Or take a nap upon a scrap of carpet,
And so by dozing melt the solid hours
That clog the clock’s bright gears with sullen time
And stall the dinner bell.
To sit, to stare
Outdoors, and by a stare to seem to state
A wish to venture forth without delay,
Then when the portal’s opened up, to stand
As if transfixed by doubt.
To prowl; to sleep;
To choose not knowing when we may once more
Our readmittance gain: aye, there’s the hairball;
For if a paw were shaped to turn a knob,
Or work a lock or slip a window-catch,
And going out and coming in were made
As simple as the breaking of a bowl,
What cat would bear the household’s petty plagues,
The cook’s well-practiced kicks, the butler’s broom,
The infant’s careless pokes, the tickled ears,
The trampled tail, and all the daily shocks
That fur is heir to, when, of his own free will,
He might his exodus or entrance make
With a mere mitten?
Who would spaniels fear,
Or strays trespassing from a neighbor’s yard,
But that the dread of our unheeded cries
And scratches at a barricaded door
No claw can open up, dispels our nerve
And makes us rather bear our humans’ faults
Than run away to unguessed miseries?
Thus caution doth make house cats of us all;
And thus the bristling hair of resolution
Is softened up with the pale brush of thought,
And since our choices hinge on weighty things,
We pause upon the threshold of decision.
@The Kitten’s Unpaid Help
I’d never read that before. Neat! Thanks for sharing.
Starla:Okay fair enough, but what do you think should happen then? She did kill a baby.
Even if being 14 means you can’t be tried as an adult, certainly it doesn’t mean it’s okay to kill someone if you are 14.
Straw man. You asked why she ought not be tried as an adult. No one has said nothing should happen.
Try her as a juvenile, with the lesser punishements that provides.
This is a case in which I am not an acceptable juror. I would vote to acquit, based on the age/possible sentence, since she isn’t capable of appreciating things as if she were an adult.
And the reason I think she should be tried as an adult is because I can’t imagine ever trying to hurt a baby, let alone kill one.
This is why she ought not be tried as an adult. You have this problem, because you are what she isn’t… an adult.
Well that’s my reason. I think killing children is evil.
You do know this is the justification for all sorts of evil things? It’s why we use courts, not vendetta to solve this sort of thing.
And I can’t empathize with her. I admit it, and I dont see why anyone is trying to,
Because she’s a human being, and empathy is part of how one gets justice, rather than revenge. One need not sympathise but one must empathise, if any hope of equitable resolution is to be attained in situations like this.
And to answer your comments, I don’t think all minors should be judged harshly, she didn’t rob a store, she didn’t get caught smoking marijuana, she KILLED someone.
What’s the magic line that makes this circumstance different? What if the corpse had been 55 years old? What if she were mentally disabled?
Is it the “baby”? Because you seem willing to ignore the “child”.
Page change. I’ll drop it, all things being equal.
@penuciam
If I may ask, what time zone are you in?
Some Gal – my pleasure! The whole book is a hoot, but I adore that one.
Kitteh, that is wonderful.
Isn’t it? Henry Beard’s a genius.
(Diogenes Dipshit take note.)
If I may ask, what time zone are you in?
Work.
“If I may ask, what time zone are you in?
Work.”
Lol!
“This is a case in which I am not an acceptable juror. I would vote to acquit, based on the age/possible sentence, since she isn’t capable of appreciating things as if she were an adult.”
And this is why I can’t answer how she should be punished. My best friend is a law student, I was a psych major, we have a bit of a thing about “this one’s for your field not mine” — this one’s for psych, not law.
BTW… if anyone want’s to follow my blog on twitter, I have a feed to announce posts @BetterThanSalt
I think part of the issue we’re running into with Starla may be that most of us think of prison as something that exists to keep dangerous people away from the general population, while she thinks of it mostly as punishment. That’s a fairly fundamental difference in approach to how crime is dealt with that we’re unlikely to be able to work around to come to an agreement.
Now, I do think that this child should be removed from her current situation and have to deal with the juvenile version of the criminal justice system, but part of the reason I think that is that clearly her current environment is doing a shitty job of teaching her much of anything. One of the reasons that we treat juveniles differently from adults when they commit crimes is that not only are they not really capable of adult reasoning yet, because they’re not fully formed it’s a lot easier to change the life path they’re on than it is with an adult. If this girl was to be put in an adult prison and treated in the way adult prisoners are she would be released when she was still young enough to offend again, and she probably wouldn’t get any counselling. If she goes through the juvenile system it might be possible for her to learn WHY what she did was wrong, which makes it far less likely that she’ll ever do anything similar again.
Which, given that murderers already have one of the lowest rates of recidivism (I know I am droning on about this, but it’s important I think), makes it extra important that we employ a rehabilitative approach here. Sadly, the juvenile system is only a tiny smidge better than the adult system in terms of providing education and counseling.
In cases like this I have to lean towards agreeing with the person upthread who said that maybe just getting the kid away from their parents and current community might do the trick as far as rehabilitation goes.
“BTW… if anyone want’s to follow my blog on twitter, I have a feed to announce posts @BetterThanSalt”
How’d you know that I’m currently fighting with iPad apps about twitter support? :-P
Oh… if you are planning to seriously use the iPad for blogging/twitter, etc. you might want to get a keyboard.
Lol, I have tiny hands, been using it here since Christmas :)
And I hate twitter, if it wasn’t EA’s favorite way to drop easter eggs, I wouldn’t use it.
I’ll consider a real keyboard though (the on screen one really does work well though, even on the mini…I really do have tiny hands) I mean “too small to play guitar” tiny, which you’d think wouldn’t be that different from violin, but no…
Starla, if you are interested in engaging at all, maybe you could just answer one question:
What is the purpose of punishment? When this girl gets punished, what do you think it should be trying to accomplish?
Something’s bugging me. Wasn’t it Starla who was talking a day or two ago about wanting to talk to MRMs on their own turf, unworried about how unpleasant that would be (fair enough in itself) and wanting to know how they tick? The same mob who harbour a lot of child rape fantasists, who want women killed – something that’s hardly unmentioned here, and in these same conversations. The ones who approve of and defend abusers, including child abusers.
Yet she (if I’ve got the right person; apologies if not) cannot or will not try to consider what might be going on with a desperate fourteen-year-old girl.
@Katz you beat me to it. I think another big issue here is what is punishment for, what are you trying to achieve.
@katz
Why bother? I already admitted I was wrong.
And yes kitteh that was me. I already admitted that the only thing I knew about this girl was that she killed her baby. I do not know if she was abused, raped etc. Ive come to realize that the reason I can’t imagine myself taking the path that she did, is because I’ve never been in the same dark place as her. I could pretend to understand what it would have been like in her situation but it would never be the same as actually being her. Kitteh, I’m no expert at this, I’m still learning. As for MRAs, I find it difficult to compare the two. (I hope) they just log on and talk crap, it’s a very pathetic and unhealthy mentality, but I can’t help but wonder how they came to be that way. I could only imagine this girl was in a frenzy of emotions and acted, I couldn’t imagine her thought process. And that’s what put me in the wrong, while I was ranting about inhumanity and evil, I didn’t think about the kind of inhumanity that might have happened to her to make her do that.
Thanks for saying that, Starla. I get what you’re saying about this girl, now. I was under the impression you knew more about how – to borrow a Steelism – vile the MRM is. My mistake, I’m sorry.
@kitteh
No no, I shouldve been more clear and not have been so hasty to judge at first glance. But I did learn something and that is what I came here to do. So it wasn’t completely unproductive.
But now that we’re all on a more positive note, can someone tell me who Steele is? I don’t think I caught that.
All about Steele.
http://manboobz.com/2013/01/02/the-winner-of-the-man-boobz-troll-of-the-year-award-for-2012-goes-to-mral-no-thats-not-a-typo/
One reason would be that you’ve annoyed me and, I think, others pretty badly and are showing a tendency to never answer questions, no matter how direct and pertinent, so if you’d like to continue to be part of this community you might throw us a bone and answer.
Another would be that then we could have a real conversation about what sorts of punishments might be appropriate in this case and why, and we might subsequently get something out of this conversation besides frustration.
@cassandra
Why do I always hear about the trolls just a little too late? I need to look here more often, so far, I suck at this lol
Oh don’t worry, Steele // Mr. Al // Josephine // Torvus Butthorn // Varpole // all his other socks will be back soon enough!
As Steele he finally learned that if he doesn’t want to be spotted right away he needs to not pester me specifically. I am enjoying this new development, especially the idea that he may find it rather frustrating.
I’m pretty sure that Skyrimjob was him too.
@katz
I did get something out of this conversation, I learned something. And you seemed pretty sure of what punishments were appropriate the whole time you were shooting me down. Why would you need me to verify your thoughts? As for your annoyance, I’m afraid I can’t help you there. I already admitted I was wrong and approached the situation from a newfound light.
I didn’t mean to ignore your questions, I explained before that it’s very hard for me to read comments because this website doesn’t agree with my iPhone and scrolls all the way back up to the top randomly. I’ve also explained that I don’t have answers because I realized that I don’t have a point and am incorrect. I didn’t realize that in my ranting I was filling in the blanks as to why I should sympathize with this girl. Should I still be obligated to answer your questions if I know longer have the same viewpoint I did before?
I also didn’t realize that you ran this community and decided how everyone should behave on this website. I will try to dictate myself accordingly next time.
Welp.
Starla’s trollin’.
Think she’s a new troll or a sock? She’s appeared uncannily close to MRAL’s unveiling…
At this point the assumption should be that any new troll is probably him.
@katz
LOL I’m not “trolling” anyone. I had a change of opinion and called you out on dragging out a resolved conflict, and telling me what I should do if I want to “remain a part of this community”. You don’t want a conversation, you want a fight, and I’m not giving it to you.
Whoa, here comes the aggression. Trolly indeed.
…This is not how one goes about not giving someone a fight.
“…this website doesn’t agree with my iPhone and scrolls all the way back up to the top randomly”
Hit the little refresh circle/arrow, works on iPad so I’d assume it works on iPhone (I haven’t the damnedest clue why or ho it works, but it does)
“…This is not how one goes about not giving someone a fight.”
Indeed not.
@argenti
I’ve tried that, it doesn’t work. I guess I’m stuck like this until school starts back (that’s the only time I ever think to turn on my laptop)
Anyways, it’s 3:48 in the morning where I live and I have to work tomorrow.
I’d like to apologize again for my ill informed BS and I hope you all have a good night! :)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Geidel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Bell
This is a subject that I have mixed feelings about. A young person murders someone else. You have the “now what?” question to answer.
Either keep them in jail for a ridiculous amount of time, like they did with Paul Geidel, where they can’t function outside of prison anymore, or try to reform them like Mary Bell, so they have a second shot at life once they get out. Geidel was in so long he couldn’t live anymore. Something he did at 18 imprisoned him for the remainder of his life. Bell was able to leave jail and live a quiet life afterwards, without becoming a sadistic monster.
One the one hand it doesn’t seem fair to punish someone forever for something they did when they couldn’t understand the gravity of their action, but on the other, what right does society have to force a person to change? I don’t have a good answer for that, but I don’t think enough people consider the ethical questions that rehabilitation creates.
“One the one hand it doesn’t seem fair to punish someone forever for something they did when they couldn’t understand the gravity of their action, but on the other, what right does society have to force a person to change? I don’t have a good answer for that, but I don’t think enough people consider the ethical questions that rehabilitation creates.”
Seriously? You find it less ethical to attempt rehabilitation than to just lock someone away forever / a long time without even trying rehabilitation?
You do get that people don’t have to go for parole and shit, right? (When Mansin shows up to his parole hearings, he makes a mockery of them, he wants to stay in prison and he’s going to get to.)
Diogenes, you understand that rehab is a voluntary process and not something out of The Clockwork Orange?
Ugh, it’s like watching someone take Baby’s First Philosophy Class. It’s painful to watch.
Oh, the Ludovico Treatment?
Incredible book BTW.
*bangs head on wall*
Why do our trolls make me wish I could drink myself down to their level of stupid?
Diogenes, skip the references for a second and try keeping up with your actual argument, k? Do you actually think that a life sentence or other long sentence is more ethical than offering rehabilitation? In all cases or just some?
Various crimes do actually respond well to rehab btw, eg drug rehab for drug crimes (makes perfect sense if you think about it)
Argenti, honey, don’t try to do that. Not only is it impossible because hey there disengenuous troll bullshit, hangovers are no fun.
Lol, I said “wish I could” for a reason! I did sort of try that once over the summer, and yeah, hangovers are no fun (I wasn’t really trying to out stupid the trolls, just ound it amusing that I could type better than I could walk and hey, they still made no sense!)
Depends on the purpose and motivations behind the rehabilitation.
If the criminal wants to change themselves, all is well and good. If help for changing is available in jail, all is well and good. But the whole thing about making life skills classes mandatory for parole is a bit of a problem. For one thing, it really isn’t a free will decision.
For another, I have come to the conclusion that parole is just an artificial way of keeping people inside of the prison-industrial complex for more time than necessary. They make it impossible to move, and former criminals then can’t go to another state for a better job. They are legally discriminated against. If they sold pot, they aren’t allowed to get tuition assistance from the feds. It looks like an entire system built to keep enough slave laborers available to the U.S. government for their prison industries. Recidivism rates are high, and I suspect that thats being done intentionally.
As far as drug charges go, thats another story. They should be legal to begin with. But unfortunately some narrow minded people have appointed themselves as the arbiters for others health decisions. But as it is, we jail people for drug, and alcohol related charges, and force people who get DUI’s to go to AA. I think that is downright immoral. If a person wants to remain an alcoholic, I don’t see why the state thinks it has the authority to change them. If they want to keep using drugs, so be it. If the courts have to have a problem with it, then jail the people. But ordering people into drug or alcohol programs? No. Totally immoral.
We just don’t have that kind of power.
@argenti, glad you tackled that. I just looked at what he wrote and just couldn’t be bothered. I had wine to drink and Gavin and Stacey to watch (crackin’ UK sitcom). But you are right,I thought fuck the reference and think about the idea.
Diogenes. Assuming anything you say is real, do you have direct experience of working with people in the prison system or who use drugs/alcohol?