Anyone else giggling at the irony of what Bob is advocating when you think of the other MRAs who bemoan how evil it is that women “settle” for betas after hopping off the cock carousel?

And yet, despite the specificity with which you detail what men want from relationships, you still argued that women should accept marriage proposals from who are “intelligent” and of “good character.” You can’t ret-con your clear double-standard.

Such a good point! He goes on about the emotional connections people want from relationships, all the while saying women should accept proposals even when they don’t feel and may never feel that way about the man. Just how is that supposed to create a happy marriage for either party? Unless of course the man in question is totally blind to the woman’s feelings, I suppose.

It’s incredibly misanthropic to think that either person -man or woman- would be content with such a marriage.

It sounds so much like so many arranged marriages – I don’t mean ones where the couple have the right of veto and it’s sort of like an organised meeting, but the sort where personalities never enter into it, where it’s really a transaction or a political process, and you’re stuck with it. If the couple were really lucky they might find contentment or even real love together (Charles I and Henriette Marie were one of those rare examples) but even when that’s your expectation of marriage, when that’s the culture and social position you’re brought up in, it’s a dreadful arrangement.

Did we scare Bob away? He was awfully boring, but we seem to be troll-less at the moment.

“So what it comes down to is that Bob doesn’t think women should be permitted to decline marriage or escape a bad marriage. Also “bored” appears to be trollspeak for women refusing to continue a bad relationship.”

No, what it comes down to is that people have free will to leave relationships and you can’t stop them. That doesn’t mean the reasons men and women do so are for respectful and humane relationships. We live in a narcissistic and vain society that increasingly treats everything, including romantic relationships, as easily disposable commodities.

That doesn’t mean the reasons men and women do so are for respectful and humane relationships.

Can anyone else see past the grammar fail in order to figure out WTF he’s talking about?

“Can anyone else see past the grammar fail in order to figure out WTF he’s talking about?”

Yes, if you could ease up on the useless snark, you could see I addressed the typos in the next post.

“That’s another thing, for me – the idea of having someone I don’t really, really love being physically intimate. Purely a personal feeling, but it takes the whole “marry a decent intelligent bloke if he asks regardless of how you feel” thing from awful to skin-crawling-horrible. And y’know, somehow I doubt I’m the only person who’s ever felt that way.”

Well, that’s one of the more puerile and stupid things I’ve read on here. Why would you accept a marriage proposal from somebody you haven’t fucked and feel no physical attraction for? Where are these hordes of men proposing to women that are not their serious girlfriends and they haven’t had sex with? One would think that if you’re in a long-term relationship, having sex with your significant other turns you on, or at least doesn’t physically repulse you. I don’t recall advocating accepting marriage proposals from men that you barely know and that don’t physically turn you on. Can anybody here actually debate what I post and not strawmen arguments that are easier to demolish?

Sawdust! Those poor goalposts were once noble fixtures worthy of any football pitch, now they look like the mini-Stonehenge set from Spinal Tap.

“Rebut”

Bob – I am impressed by your thoughtfulness, as well by as your civility in the face of the noted supercilious jackass Says. It’s certainly true that many partners do not communicate their intentions, or their beliefs adequately; I know this only too well, without going too off-topic. I certainly believe feminism to be a cause; likewise misandry.

No, my contention is that women should not get far too deeply involved with a man that she does not passionately feel anything for. I do not want to be married to a woman that feels about me “Eh, he’s okay.”

That is PRECISELY what you said women should do.

If a woman wants to get married and have children, and nearly all of them do, shouldn’t they make finding a good man a priority in their prime child-bearing years of 25-35? It boggles the mind to me that any woman over the age of 27 would turn down a marriage proposal from a suitor who has proven himself to be a person of good character and intelligence. And yet many women have followed the lead of Kate Bollick and decided that they’re “not ready to settle down” and maybe “something better is out there.”

You said NOTHING about love or passion or long-term relationships there, or indeed about having a physical relationship at all. You threw generalisations around (with a nice dash of ageism and sexism) and said straight out that women should be accepting marriage proposals.

“So, because men and women are each responsible for 50 percent of any given failing relationship — why are you only talking about the appearance of these male subcultures? Why aren’t you yammering on about the equivalent female subcultures* created by men’s failure to make relationships work that reflect badly on them (and also women)?”

Because in western societies men pursue women and rarely is it the other way around. These subcultures exist because these men are frustrated at their inability to get what they want from women. A woman if she is reasonably attractive can take a very passive approach to dating and she will still get approached by men, whether she wants to be approached or not. A man can take care of himself physically, have a good job, develop lots of hobbies and interests besides xbox and internet porn in an effort to become a well-rounded person, and it is still an uphill climb to get a girlfriend. Not impossible, but he is going to have to really put himself out there repeatedly and endure rejection after rejection in order to get what he wants.

For a lot of these men, they need to take a good, long look in the mirror at themselves and address their own faults and shortcomings before lashing out at the world. But I would also argue that our society is having just as corrosive effect on women as it as men.

We attended the PUA training class for you!

“You said NOTHING about love or passion or long-term relationships there, or indeed about having a physical relationship at all. You threw generalisations around (with a nice dash of ageism and sexism) and said straight out that women should be accepting marriage proposals.”

Yeah, I don’t understand why you are having a hard time with this. Most, but not all, women want to get married and have kids. Nurturing and mothering instincts are very strong with women. Do you deny this? What happens to women after the age of 35 and especially after the age of 40? It becomes harder to conceive. The chances of having a child with birth defects or other abnormalities increases. And then eventually there is the onset of menopause and they physically can’t have kids anymore. At the same time as they get older they are competing for the same pool of men as women that are younger and prettier than they are. When you break it down to a basic biological level, men are hard-wired to respond to youth and beauty because of the implications for fertility, while women are hard-wired to respond to strength because of the implications for gathering resources and being the best possible providers for her offspring. We’re not hunter gatherers anymore, but our wiring is basically the same.

So if a woman wants to get married and have kids and secure for herself the best possible man she possibly could, doesn’t it make sense to leverage her prime child-bearing and beauty years for this purpose? I think it is in general a bad idea for people to get married under the age of 25 because they are still figuring out who they are and what they want out of life. My argument is that after that, if marriage and kids is what people want, they should approach romantic relationships with more purpose. Men should be evaluating women on the basis of whether or not they would make good wives and mothers. Women should be evaluating men on the basis of whether or not they would make good husbands and fathers. In short, they should be looking for Mr. and Mrs. Right instead of Mr. and Mrs. Right Now. That doesn’t mean get hitched to the first guy or gal that isn’t a complete train wreck of a person, but they should be be making finding Mr. or Mrs. Right a priority.

If you’re a serial monogamist or whatever and have no desire to reproduce or get married, then none of this applies to you. But if you want to follow the traditional model of getting married and starting a family, it’s prudent to approach it in an serious manner.

laughing too hard to do blockquotes … :P

“BWAHAHAHA you really think older women (all those decrepit post-27 year olds) are competing for younger men?”

I said that in most relationships the man is the older party. A 32 year old woman is absolutely competing for the same 35 year old bachelor as a 26 year old woman.

“Or that younger women are all chasing older men, or interested in being chased by them? Or that actual adult men only go for “prettier” (by which you evidently mean “younger”)? Typical MRA fantasy there.”

Everybody has their own individual age preferences. In general you want somebody who has the same level of emotional maturity and awareness as you. I think it would be hard for a 45 year old man to be able to find common ground with a 21 year old female. He may very much appreciate the fact that she is in her physical prime, and she might be impressed by his physical resources, but the idea that they could forge an intimate, successful relationship is laughable. But a 45 year old man and a 34 year old woman? I think that could generally work. A 47 year old man and a 27 year old woman? I doubt it. But a 36 year old man and a 28 year old woman? I think that’s feasible.

If you are denying that men in general prefer and date younger, then I don’t know that I can help you.

Bob is a treasure trove. Was he just mansplaining menopause to a bunch of women? Pure gold.

MRM Traits our Bob Troll is exhibiting:

Mansplaining.

Men prefer younger women (ALL men, all the time)

Women dry up as they age after wasting their time and then cannot get married.

Women are completing with each other to get the best catch out of “the pool of men.”

Women have to “leverage” their “prime” years (child bearing and beauty) or ELSE (da da da DUMB).

Oh, yeah, and TEH WINNAH: EVO PSYCH: When you break it down to a basic biological level, men are hard-wired to respond to youth and beauty because of the implications for fertility, while women are hard-wired to respond to strength because of the implications for gathering resources and being the best possible providers for her offspring. We’re not hunter gatherers anymore, but our wiring is basically the same.

Have fun with the squeaky toy, comrades, I’m off to bed!

“I’m pretty sure any man who is looking at me and considering whether or not he’s going to get my “prime childbearing and beauty years” is, by definition, very far short of the “best possible man.”

If i want to get married and start a family, I don’t want to date a woman that is too young, because she is a young adult still figuring out who she is and is not ready to take on the adult responsibilities of a long-term relationship. it doesn’t make her a bad person by any means, she’s just at a different stage of life. I can’t be what she wants and needs and vice versa. If I date a woman that is too old, I’m looking at a woman with whom it will be harder to conceive, and the chances of us having a baby with birth defects and abnormalities increases as well. If I decide to date a 38 year old woman, and I’m looking to get married and start a family, it will take time for us to get to know each other, figure out if our values, prioirties and goals line up, and fall in love. I’m looking at probably a 2-3 year courtship before we get married. So she’s likely to be 42 years old before we start trying to conceive. Isn’t it easier to date a younger woman where I don’t feel this pressure to start a family against the clock? It’s not making a moral judgment against younger or older women, I’m just saying that it makes sense I think for me to try and find a woman between the ages of 25-35 that wants the same things out of life that I do.

And the point whooshes right over Bob’s head.

So, let’s examine what Bob has failed to address:

He’s asserted that relationships exist at the mercy of women and that women initiate the majority of breakups and divorce. Now, the part about breakups is baseless bullshit. He’s provided no evidence to support the claim. Many posters have conceded the issue on initiation of divorce, but Bob has completely failed to take any critical examination of those statistics. Women initiate divorce more often than men. Fine. Does it logically follow that this means that all -or even the majority- of women who initiate divorce do so carelessly out of nothing more than boredom?

Bob is big on the “sickness and in health ’til death do us part” aspect of the marriage vows. Statistically, however, men are much more likely to leave and/or divorce women who have been diagnosed with serious illnesses. Bob has not addressed this at all.

When provided with reasons and examples of why women have and do turn down marriage proposals from men whom they care(d) about deeply, Bob has doubled down on stupid and descended into tepid cliches about fraud and “time theft.” Time. Theft.

And, now we’ve hit the evospsych. Was there ever any doubt that this is where we’d end up? Blanket generalizations that ignore the real world dynamics of human interactions and inherent contradictions. Women are chased and it’s an uphill battle for good men to find relationships. But… But! Women are in heavy competition for good men and age out of desirability.

There are never any surprises with these dudes. Never.

Back-pedaling, whiny-ass titty baby bullshit.

But never any surprises.

I humbly offer a small antidote to Bob’s stupidity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thief_of_Always

In other news, goalposts still dancing, Bob’s argument still just as dumb and self-centered.

“Women are in heavy competition for good men and age out of desirability.”

it’s a buyer’s market for women. And statistically speaking, most men and women do end up getting married. So it is not true that women “age out of desirability.” Because men are the ones doing the courting and the pursuing, women can and do take a more cavalier approach to relationships. Men are much more pragmatic and rational when it comes to relationships because they can’t afford not to be.

“Then what the fuck are you whining about?”

I am not whining. I am laying out the case that relationships and the formation of said relationships have become needlessly complicated.

The BEST seat, cloudiah. What, haven’t you always wanted to be somebody’s best available chair?

I knew my partner and I were meant to be when one night, over a romantic dinner, he leaned over, looked deep into my eyes, and whispered, “Sweetie, while as someone over the age of 27, you’re past your prime childbearing and beauty years, you’re still probably fertile enough for a while yet that I figure you’re the best I can reasonably hope to attain.” What more could any gal ask for? *swoons*