MGTOWer: “Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good.”
Like women, cats are sneaky creatures, up to no good.
So over on MGTOWforums, the regulars are pondering the age-old question – should these committed women-avoiders deal with their continued desire to stick their penises in the women they’re allegedly avoiding by resorting to prostitutes?
In the midst of a lively discussion on the advantages of “going pro” over trying to pick up a “bar hog,” one regular by the nom de internet Xtc sets forth some thoughts that, for a moment at least, seem to transcend the usual MGTOW crudity and bitterness.
“I don’t think it’s really about sex,” he writes. “I think what a lot of people are looking for is love, respect, and intimacy – which you can’t buy.”
Why, that almost seems like an insight!
Alas, in his very next sentence he spoils the moment by returning to the standard MGTOW narrative of female perfidy:
I think what put me off women altogether was the realisation that you’ll NEVER get [love, respect, and intimacy] for real. It’s sad and sobering, but that’s the way it is.
Thinking that the attention of women validates you as a person collapses once you realise they are attracted to the worst qualities in the worst men.
Thinking that the attention of women equals affection, intimacy, or love – collapses once you realise they will leave you in a second if they sense any weakness or if a BBD [bigger better deal] comes along. Then you’ll realise that the meter was running all the time, whether this was clear at the time or not.
Women are like a bitter medicine that you force yourself to swallow because you believe it is doing you good. Once you realise it’s a quack remedy, and the whole thing is a scam, you’re free to spit it out and never partake again.
That leaves you with sex alone, which is really rather easy to come by.
If women really and truly are “attracted to the worst qualities of the worst men,” why aren’t they lining up at these dudes’ front doors?
Posted on November 28, 2012, in $MONEY$, alpha males, evil women, hypergamy, men who should not ever be with women ever, MGTOW, MGTOW paradox, misogyny, sex and tagged mgtow, misogyny. Bookmark the permalink. 1,159 Comments.
Don’t forget homophobic!
Maybe women initiate more divorces because they generally become less happy after marriage, whereas men become more happy after marriage. (No, I am not digging up the stats atm. Google is there for you.) This might be because the vast bulk of household work still falls on women, even in relationships where the male partner thinks he’s doing an equal amount of work. (Again, not looking up the stats right now.)
But clearly this disparity is the fault of those frivolous ladies.
“Your “women should shoulder the responsibility” is just another iteration of the idea that it’s up to women to make relationships work, that all the compromises must be ours, and that it’s unreasonable for us to see anything wrong with this scenario. Screw that, it’s been dumped on women for centuries. You may not realise this is what you’re saying, but it is.”
Men and women are 100 percent responsible for their 50 percent of a given relationship. I have never said the ultimate success or failure of a relationship is solely up to women to determine, and that they should stay in relationships no matter what. That’s not fair to ask of women and it’s patronizing and insulting to men.
The positions you complain about being “assigned” are the ones you held when you started commenting here, no matter how you try to fudge them now.
“Dude.
You don’t like it here.
It is making you angry.
If you want to be happier, stop doing things that make you unhappy.”
Actually, I’m perfectly calm. It’s the other posters that are generally resorting to ad hominem and getting upset.
And the goalposts sprint for Mars – or have we reached Jupiter?
@ katz
We can add “delusional” now, after the last comment. Napoleon triomphe!
(This will make no sense if you’ve never seen Bill and Ted’s Excellent Adventure.)
You said you want women to shoulder more of the responsibility for what you claim are failed relationships.
We. Already. Get. Lumped. With. That. Shit.
“I can definitely see why relationships might not be working out very well for you now, though!”
You don’t know anything about my personal life or the quality of the friendships, family relationships, working relationships and romantic relationships I have. Nice projection, though.
Estimated time to meltdown: 30 minutes. Even though he’s perfectly calm.
Seriously, Bob, you’re too late. The nominations for Troll of the Year are closed.
People who’re happy with the way their love life is going don’t post woe is the modern dating market comments, but nice try!
Scornful, rather than upset. You don’t seriously think we haven’t seen this sort of tedious nonsense before, do you?
“Maybe women initiate more divorces because they generally become less happy after marriage, whereas men become more happy after marriage. (No, I am not digging up the stats atm. Google is there for you.) This might be because the vast bulk of household work still falls on women, even in relationships where the male partner thinks he’s doing an equal amount of work. (Again, not looking up the stats right now.)
But clearly this disparity is the fault of those frivolous ladies.”
As I said earlier, women inititate most breakups and divorces. They are more likely to fall out of love and get bored. They cheat almost as much as men do. Relationships plainly exist mainly on women’s terms. Those are just facts. It would be bad in the long-term to force somebody to stay with you out of guilt, obligation, pity, or use manipulation to prevent them from leaving. You’ll both be miserable in the long term. The adult, mature thing to do is let somebody leave, regardless of their reasons. Having said that, given the current romantic terrain, why do you think these male subcultures exist? It’s because they see long-term relationships and romantic entanglements with women as too volatile and too risky. Too much is being risked for not enough gain.
You ultimately have to deal with people as individuals. There are good men and good women out there, and there are men and women out there that are not good relationship material. It should be very obvious why these male subcultures exist. It says something bad about both men and women.
“People who’re happy with the way their love life is going don’t post woe is the modern dating market comments, but nice try!”
I’ve had both good and bad experiences with women. They are people and there is a hell of a lot of complexity and room for individuality in that.
@ Hellkell: They think this is free therapy and dating advice instead of misogyny mocking.
You know, now that I think back, there quite a few previous trollz who went into a lot of detail about their lack of dating success (remembering the one who thought that the federal government owed him female bodies for dates).
I suspect it’s because they assume we’re all all women, so somehow they’re entitled to get our attention and advice.
And yet, amongst all the misogyny mocking, there’s actually quite a good deal of sympathy and even advice for many, until they flip over into total exquite dipshittery.
@Bob: If you don’t like what I post, ignore or run and tattle on me to the site administrator.
Silly Troll: we mock misogyny. That’s why this blog exists. I had great fun posting all the evidence to contradict your wild ass inanities and ignorant generalizations earlier–all of which I note you are totally ignoring!–but if you cross certain lines, then there may be a movement among the regulars to ask that you be put on moderation, or permanent moderation–but you’ve quite a ways to go before you qualify for the Hall o’Moderation.
We’re just critically evaluating the quality of your trolling–which really isn’t up to some of our Legendary Trollz. Troll harder/better, though apparently you’re too late to qualify for Troll of the Year.
@CassandraSays: Oh, you’re on topic, more or less, it’s just that you’re also tedious, sexist, lacking in an appropriate sense of boundaries, and generally a pain in the ass.
I agree, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Just out of interest, does anyone here (other than Bob) actually find that the people they know constantly bemoan the state of modern dating? I’ve heard complaints about dating being hard in certain specific geographical areas, but nobody I know seems to think that dating is bad in the modern era in general. Everyone I know seems happier with the way things are now than the way they would have been at any point in the past.
I don’t hang out with cranky reactionaries, though.
Assertions are not facts just because you say it’s so.
Any takers on how long it’ll take him to start telling us about all his girlfriends?
TOtallyOFF TOPIC: The Hawkeye Initiative.
Did you like Jim Hines recreating posts imposted on women in urban fantasy novels?
You’ll love the HAWKEYE INITIATIVE tumblr:
http://thehawkeyeinitiative.tumblr.com/
My prediction is already in.
Citation needed
Everyone wants to get married….most people assume that a long-term relationship is going to lead to marriage….women are fickle…
My biased assumptions, let me show you them.
@Hippodameia: Or how feminists must shoulder the blame for insisting that women have the right to vote, to an education, to owning their own money, and getting jobs which is why there is such general discontent among PEOPLE as to the woes on the dating scene today?
*puts a fiver down on the *by midnight central standard USA time* tonight* (currently 6:31 here in CSTUSA).
“We’re just critically evaluating the quality of your trolling–which really isn’t up to some of our Legendary Trollz. Troll harder/better, though apparently you’re too late to qualify for Troll of the Year.”
Trolling assumes that I am trying to get a rise out of the posters here or that I am deliberately presenting my arguments in an inflammatory way, or I am not sincere in what I am posting. I sincerely stand behind everything I’ve posted here. I don’t care if it bothers you or not. I don’t care if you agree with it or not. I don’t care if it upsets you or not. What I am doing is not trolling. It is presenting opinions that the overwhelming majority of posters here do not like and agree with. If we were having this conversation on a manosphere messageboard or blog, I would be but one voice in a chorus and yours would be a lone, minority opinion.
(Points up)
But I’m not an MRA, oh no, I just happen to be a voice in their chorus.
(You have to admit that Bob is sometimes almost funny, albeit unintentionally.)
Yeah, you’re not sexist at aaaaaallll. Not ignoring everything that’s been pointed out to you in this thread. Not demeaning women’s experiences of miserable marriages by repeating the “bored” bit. Not making shit up about relationships. Not totally contradicting yourself by saying the relationships exist on women’s terms BUT that those relationships are so bad women are walking out of them.
@CassandraSays – I don’t know anyone who complains about modern dating. My friends are in long-term relationships, but the only one I knew while she was between relationships never translated “I’m a bit sad because don’t know if I’ll ever get into a happy, permanent situation” into “The modern dating scene is terrible!!!”
I’m starting to see this thread as a Mel Brooks musical – dancing goalposts, choirs of MRAs ….
@BobTroll: But we’re having it here.
And we see you as a troll.
So I don’t give a flying fuck what you state your intentions are: you are trolling.
So why don’t you go over to the misogynistic sites where you can get applauds and upvotes for your shit?
I always ask this of our trolls (or most of them, hmmm, have been busy lately): what do you hope to accomplish here?
It’s springtime
For sexism
And the death of marriage
“Just out of interest, does anyone here (other than Bob) actually find that the people they know constantly bemoan the state of modern dating?”
Uh yes, pretty much everybody that is not currently in a relationship or coupled off will probably at some time or another express frustration at the ups and downs in trying to find somebody. Men and women both that are single will express frustration and disappointment from time to time at how many frogs they have to kiss before they find their prince or princess. The first thing to do when you want to find somebody to share your life with is address any and all structural issues within yourself. If I’m unemployed and live with my parents, I shouldn’t expect women to be clamoring to date me. If I’m 80 pounds overweight, I shouldn’t expect women to find me sexy and physically attractive. If I’m not a good listener, empathetic, kind, caring, I shouldn’t be surprised when women don’t want to continue to get to know me. Sometimes you meet somebody and despite the fact that both people are decent, good people, the chemistry just isn’t there and you’re not a good match. Dating can often be frustrating, and it doesn’t make you bitter and hateful to make that observation.
I did say anyone other than Bob…
No, they don’t.
Bob, why the fuck are you here? You can still be a troll, even if you think you’re Spock.
Troll haiku? :O
Bob: what if you run on at length monologing about what you want, regardless of what your audience thinks? Would you date you?
Gods, you’re obtuse. How often must you be told that not everyone is looking for a relationship?
Anyone want to play Spot That Fallacy with Bob’s last comment? I’m still flu-ish.
“But I’m not an MRA, oh no, I just happen to be a voice in their chorus.”
I agree with a lot of what they have to say regarding modern male/female relations. What I find detestable is they are almost like mirror image of strident radical feminists: they hate women, and they would rather complain and whine about how their lives are not what they want it to be instead of taking responsiblity for their happiness and their choices. Somebody that is bitter and hateful repulses other people, whether they are seeking out friendships or romance. You get back what you put out. A man that decides he has nothing better to do that hate all women and blame all women for his failures and shortcomings is basically advertising the fact that has given up on bettering himself and his life.
@Bob: It just amazes me that all of the blame for the declining marriage rate and the increase in single people and the overall dissatisfaction that is increasing when it comes to people’s romantic lives is put entirely at the feet of men,
Where IS this blame put? Who is doing it?
I don’t blame men for any of the above: for one thing, I’m not sure it’s something that should be a focus for blame (I was born in the 1950s, saw the whole traditional marriage, and decided early on it wasn’t for me–women had to work too hard). So I never married, never wanted to (and just to reassure you, never dated anybody). Like a lot of the people I knew in college, I hung out with a group, and we slept with various people as we wished. Some of the people did want to date, and did get married, but I never did.
The reasons for the increasing divorce rate/declining marriage rate (IF it exists–I’m gonna google some stats) is I think tied to a variety of complex cultural causes–including legality of no-fault divorce, greater opportunities for women, increased longevity, economics (my mom, after her divorce, swore she’d never marry again–and didn’t–but a few years ago moved her 91 year old boyfriend into her house). The idea that “not married” means “no romantic relationship” is sort of naive.
So your whole bullshit stuff here comes from you thinking MEN are mistakengly being blamed (by women?), so you’re gonna come lecture a group of (mostly?) women on it.
Yeah, that’s not trolling or mansplaining at all, bucko.
False equivalency square: s they are almost like mirror image of strident radical feminists:
CHECK!
If you can see what hateful misogynistic losers they are, why on earth do you agree with them about relationships between men and women? Their entire premise is that whatever women do, it’s wrong; whether we wait till marriage, have a series of relationships, do paid work, do unpaid work, it doesn’t matter to these men: they will abuse us regardless. You want to do genuine work or express concern for real men’s issues, I’d suggest you move right away from the MRM, which is purely an abusers’ lobby.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005044.html
You really think this historical change can be explained by blaming individuals, as opposed to the scope of cultural changes since then?
You think yammering at people about “shouldering” their fair share of the blame is going to accomplish anything (many of whom, I’d note, are happily married or partnered)?
This conversation would make so much more sense in a context in which people were complaining about the rising divorce rate and all that jazz. Instead, Bob wants to have that conversation with a bunch of people who don’t care if the divorce rate is rising or the marriage rate is dropping.
I know MRAs care very much about that, but since we’re not actually a mirror image of them…
Divorce Rate: It’s not as high as you think!
So, BOb, howze about checking out some data instead of dumping your ASSumptions all over the blog?
CassandraSays: ut since we’re not actually a mirror image of them…
Hmm, if the MIRROR image is a reversal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_image), then that’s actually right: the MRA cares about marriage/divorce rates, and we don’t!
Reversal!
So, BobTroll, why don’t you go through the looking glass back to MRAland where you and the other creepy dudes can commiserate with each other to your heart’s content?
Bob: you’re an MRA. Admit it, we’re not going to like you more or anything.
“Bob: what if you run on at length monologing about what you want, regardless of what your audience thinks? Would you date you?”
This isn’t a dating site. This isn’t the neighborhood watering hole. This isn’t a church singles ministry. This isn’t a party I was invited to by somebody in my social circle. I’m not trying to get a date from this comment thread. If I’m on a date, I would take a genuine interest in what the person sitting across the table from me and try to get to know them, what their hobbies are, what they’re passionate about, see if we have anything in common, etc. I wouldn’t insist on discussing sociology. On a blog devoted to mocking MRA, PUA and MGOTW, I will share my opinion.
What this conversation needs is an MRAbot2000 intervention …
This conversation would make more sense if any one here cared whether or not people were in relationships, or if we were actually blaming any men for not wanting them.
Maybe Bob doesn’t understand that we mock MGTOW because they don’t ever GO anywhere?
No one really wants your opinion, Bob.
If you can see what hateful misogynistic losers they are, why on earth do you agree with them about relationships between men and women? Their entire premise is that whatever women do, it’s wrong; whether we wait till marriage, have a series of relationships, do paid work, do unpaid work, it doesn’t matter to these men: they will abuse us regardless. You want to do genuine work or express concern for real men’s issues, I’d suggest you move right away from the MRM, which is purely an abusers’ lobby.”
I agree with some, not all, of their observations when it comes to male and female relations. I think it is tragic the way they have let their bitterness run rampant and infect their psyches. I personally believe that there are many good women out there, but I also think it is true that these are reactive movements and that most of these men have been burned repeatedly by women that treated them horribly. I understand where their bitterness comes from. You see some of them that simply just want to reform family court law, and some of them are loons that want to eliminate women’s suffrage and demonstrate very cavemen like attitudes. MRAs are not my friends but neither are their mirror opposites, radical feminists or people that dedicate their lives to mocking these guys. We all need to develop more empathy and try to understand each other and ignore those that live at the extreme ends of the spectrum.
Oh, Bob, spare us the appeal to empathy. Boo hoo hoo.
So we’re equivalent to rad fems because we mock these guys? Can you say false equivalence, Bob?
Bob is getting more and more and more boring.
And bland.
It is like being trolled by a lukewarm vanilla pudding.
*yawn*
Ithiliana: ew. I’m picturing a semi-sentinent room temperature blob of pudding, typing away, wondering why these bitches won’t tell it it’s RIGHT, dammit.
Bob Smith: “Men and women are 100 percent responsible for their 50 percent of a given relationship.” and “It should be very obvious why these male subcultures exist. It says something bad about both men and women.”
So, because men and women are each responsible for 50 percent of any given failing relationship — why are you only talking about the appearance of these male subcultures? Why aren’t you yammering on about the equivalent female subcultures* created by men’s failure to make relationships work that reflect badly on them (and also women)?
*i don’t think there are any, i think the MRA is created by threats to privilege and there is no real equivalent among women. but i’m using bob’s stupid mansplanations for the purpose of this question.
The MRM supports rapists; praises child-abuser Thomas Ball as a martyr; wants judges murdered for deciding against them in family cases; wants to own women and children and discard them at will; is homophobic and racist; has “senior” figures like Elam who claim to be happily married yet scream abuse at women and want us physically attacked, beaten, killed; constantly spreads lies about the reality of rape and “false rape claims”; they want the age of consent lowered so they can have sex with little girls – and you expect us to show empathy for them?
How dare you mock people’s caveman-like atitudes! When Grog the emotional neanderthal talks about how he wishes it was legal to drag women back to his cave by their hair before they divorce-rape him you should nod sympathetically and offer him a shoulder to cry on, you empathy-free meanies.
And now I’m picturing The Blob, but not scary* and with lots more fail.
*Well that movie scared me when I was eight! :P
Wow. I left here this morning and Bob did not disappoint. Wholly unoriginal double-standards, a fuck-ton of whining, shifted goal posts, delusional nostalgia – the whole kit and caboodle. And for what?
To tell us again -and again, and again- that frivolous and immature women are the reason he hasn’t achieved his dream of a nuclear family. At least he brought his own axe and grindstone.
Not constantly. But some of the people I know bemoan the state of modern dating. It’s mostly an extension of bemoaning the difficulty of forming relationships of any sort in the modern age. Bowling Alone and all that jazz.
Of course, as a person who bowls alone, I don’t know very many people.
I also want to say, as a woman who turned down not one but two marriage proposals before the age of thirty, that I didn’t realize that it was done out of emotional immaturity and frivolity. All this time, I thought I’d taken the proposals very seriously and really searched my soul, carefully considering the difference between loving someone and truly believing that I could make a life-long commitment to them. All this time, I’d been under the impression that I had put my own feelings aside to examine my relationships, what it would mean to be a wife, and if I would be a good partner to the men who’d asked for my hand.
Turns out, it may have all just been a glut of internet porn and reality TV.
I’ll have to be sure and tell my fiance.
And, as I said, women in reality generally take on far more than 50% of the work in a marriage. So… yeah, that might have something to do with them “falling out of love and getting bored”. Maybe women decide that being someone’s mommy is not compatible with being their lover. Crazy, I know, but women don’t biologically enjoy cleaning toilets, doing laundry, and maintaining outside relationships (the card-sending, party-throwing, sick-person visiting that women are always supposed to take care of). a
Protip: blockquoting someone’s argument and then repeating the same shit they were responding to does not constitute a counterargument.
I turned down a proposal at 19. Oh how I rue the day! How could I do that to the poor, intelligent, decent man who wanted to marry me?
I guess the guy who later asked me to marry him (who I said “yes” to) should be thankful that I was such a horrible person when I was younger, huh?
Yeah, and it’s funny, but I don’t recall spending the twenty-plus years before Mr Kittehs’ and I finally got together running around moaning about the state of modern dating, or doing the whole “I must have a relationship with a man, any man who’s decent!” thing. I had a fair bit of that shit thrown at me by people who couldn’t fathom a woman not feeling she was Missing Out, or couldn’t believe that I Didn’t Want Children. But the idea of a relationship with anyone but Mr K? Grotesque, horrible, repellent.
There is no evidence, other than MRA, PUA, MGTOW anec-data that proves that women initiate more breakups. The statistics on women initiating divorce with greater frequency are true but, essentially worthless. I know women who initiated divorce because there husbands were abusive drug addicts. And I know women who initiated divorce because their husbands left them and refused to file. I know one woman who initiated divorce because she stopped being in love with her husband. But she didn’t wake up one day and decide “I don’t love him anymore. I think I’ll file for divorce and see how much money I can get!” It was difficult, painful, and preceded by two years of counseling and attempts to make the marriage work. It was not capricious. It wasn’t because she was “bored.” She stopped loving her husband.
It wasn’t fair to either of them.
You sit there and talk about personal responsibility and the need to develop empathy. What do you know about the women who initiate divorce proceedings? You talk about “in sickness and in health…” but never mention that men are far more likely to leave/divorce a partner who is diagnosed with a serious illness.
The only person here lamenting the decline and/or delay of traditional marriage is you. And you’re still placing the blame on women.
Wholly unoriginal.
As unlikely as it is given the sexism, if Bob has the same standards for himself that he does for women (if someone intelligent and decent who you kind of like wants to marry you then for fuck’s sake say yes or you will rue the day!), then I would feel terribly sorry for him.
Anyone reading along and lurking – you can and should aim higher than that.
Well, as you know Cassandra, when a man’s marriage proposal is declined his life is essentially over. I’ve kept in close contact with the two men whose lives I ruined. And despite their subsequent, relationships, marriages, children, promotions, fun vacations, etc., I know that they’re just empty shells.
But don’t you feel bad, Nobinayamu? Why, if you’d said yes like a proper woman would then one of those men could have spent the rest of his life in a mediocre relationship with a woman who wasn’t really happy being with him, rather than moving on to find the woman who was right for him. And you deprived both of them of that possibility.
Think about what you’ve done, young lady.
That’s another thing, for me – the idea of having someone I don’t really, really love being physically intimate. Purely a personal feeling, but it takes the whole “marry a decent intelligent bloke if he asks regardless of how you feel” thing from awful to skin-crawling-horrible. And y’know, somehow I doubt I’m the only person who’s ever felt that way.
And yet, despite the specificity with which you detail what men want from relationships, you still argued that women should accept marriage proposals from who are “intelligent” and of “good character.” You can’t ret-con your clear double-standard.
And I don’t concede that women are less mature men. Hell, I don’t concede that anyone of any gender, is obligated to “grow up.” That’s your shit.