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What Men’s Rights guru Warren Farrell actually said about the allegedly positive aspects of incest. (Note: it’s even more repugnant than that sounds.)

So there has been a great deal of controversy surrounding the recent talk that old school Men’s Rights guru Warren Farrell gave at the University of Toronto. Protesters troubled by Farrell’s repugnant views on incest and date rape, among other things, blocked the entrance to the building holding the talk; police broke up the blockade. You can find various videos of what went down on YouTube. I’m not going to try to sort out all the various claims and counterclaims about what happened.

I personally don’t approve of blocking people from giving talks, even if their ideas are repugnant. But I certainly do approve of holding people responsible for what they say, and Farrell – in addition to being wrong about nearly every aspect of relations between men and women – has said some truly awful things over the years.

Exhibit A: A notorious interview he gave Penthouse magazine in the 1970s in which he discussed a book he was researching about incest, tetatively titled The Last Taboo: The Three Faces of Incest.

Let me put a giant TRIGGER WARNING here for disturbing discussion of incest and child sexual abuse.

In the interview, he argued that incest could be a good thing for everyone involved. Indeed, he waxed poetic about the possible positive effects:

“Incest is like a magnifying glass,” he told interviewer Philip Nobile. “In some circumstances it magnifies the beauty of the relationship, and in others it magnifies the trauma.”

The book Farrell was working on never appeared, and Farrell would apparently prefer it if what he said in that interview simply vanished into the memory hole, but a radical feminist site called the Liz Library has a copy of the original 1977 magazine in which it appeared, and has put high quality scans of it online. You can find them here.

Here are some of the things Farrell said in that interview. I’ve put the direct quotes from Farrell in bold; the rest is Nobile’s summary of what Farrell told him.

The article summarized the “findings” of Farrell’s (at that time incomplete) incest research, starting with his take on mother-son incest:

Mother-son incest represents 10 percent of the incidence and is 70 percent positive, 20 percent mixed, and 10 percent negative for the son. For the mother it is mostly positive. Farrell points out that boys don’t seem to suffer, not even from the negative experience. “Girls are much more influenced by the dictates of society and are more willing to take on sexual guilt.”

Apparently, in his view, girls feel bad about the abuse not so much because abuse is inherently bad, but because “society” tells them it’s bad; he returns to this theme repeatedly.

Apparently Farrell’s “findings” about father-daughter incest were not quite as cheery:

The father-daughter scene, ineluctably complicated by feelings of dominance and control, is not nearly so sanguine. Despite some advertisements, calling explicitly for positive female experiences, Farrell discovered that 85 percent of the daughters admitted to having negative attitudes toward their incest. Only 15 percent felt positive about the experience. On the other hand, statistics from the vantage of the fathers involved were almost the reverse — 60 percent positive 10 percent mixed, and 20 percent negative. “Either men see these relationships differently,” comments Farrell, “or I am getting selective reporting from women.”

Yea, that’s right. He’s saying that the overwhelming majority of the abusive men he interviewed enjoyed sexually abusing their daughters, but for some baffling reason their daughters generally didn’t enjoy the abuse. And the explanation for this is that perhaps the daughters are lying – er, sorry, “selectively reporting?”

The bit about advertisements seems to suggest that Farrell went out of his way to try to find and interview women who felt positively about being sexually abused, but still was unable to find more than a small percentage who did.

The article continues. (This is Nobile summarzing Farrell, not Farrell’s direct words.)

In a typical traumatic case, an authoritarian father, unhappily married in a sexually repressed household and probably unemployed, drunkenly imposes himself on his young daughter. Genital petting may have started as early as age eight with first intercourse occurring around twelve. Since the father otherwise extends very little attention to his daughter, his sexual advances may be one of the few pleasant experiences she has with him.

Let’s just repeat that last sentence for emphasis:

Since the father otherwise extends very little attention to his daughter, his sexual advances may be one of the few pleasant experiences she has with him.

The article continues:

If she is unaware of society’s taboo and if the mother does not intervene, she has no reason to suspect the enormity of the aberration. But when she grows up and learns of the taboo, she feels cheapened.

So the incest “taboo” is the main problem, not the abuse itself?

And here is a doozy of a quote from Farrell directly:

“When I get my most glowing positive cases, 6 out of 200,” says Farrell, “the incest is part of the family’s open, sensual style of life, wherein sex is an outgrowth of warmth and affection. It is more likely that the father has good sex with his wife, and his wife is likely to know and approve — and in one or two cases to join in.”

(Note: I’m relying on the Liz Library’s transcription of this quote; some of the text in their scan of this page is blurry.)

Farrell told Nobile that he was feeling hesitant about publishing his book, because it might encourage exploitation of daughters, but that he felt compelled to continue researching it for two main reasons:

“First, because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t. My book should at least begin the exploration.”

“Second, I’m finding that thousands of people in therapy for incest are being told, in essence , that their lives have been ruined by incest. In fact, their lives have not generally been affected as much by the incest as by the overall atmosphere.

Farrell also hopes to change public attitudes so that participants in incest will no longer be automatically perceived as victims. “The average incest participant can’t evaluate his or her experience for what it was. As soon as society gets into the picture, they have to tell themselves it was bad. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. “

According to The Liz Library, Farrell now claims that the bit about “genitally caressing” children is a misquote, and that what he really said was “generally caressing.” You can see the scan of the page here; Penthouse clearly has him saying “genitally.”

But let’s assume that Farrell is telling the truth and Nobile misheard the word. Here’s the quote again, with that one word changed.

First, because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and generally caressing their children, when that is really a part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves.

I’m not sure that’s much better; he’s still talking about “touching, holding, and … caressing” children in a sexual context.

Farrell has not, to my knowledge, challenged any of the other quotes in this interview besides that one. Nor, again to the best of my knowledge, has he forthrightly repudiated the substance of what he said. If he wishes to clarify or challenge any of this I will happily give him space here on this blog to do so.

I should note that in the interview Farrell stopped short of actually advocating incest. But his reasoning here is curious, to say the least:

“I’m not recommending incest between parent and child, and especially not between father and daughter. The great majority of fathers can grasp the dynamics of positive incest intellectually. But in a society that encourages looking at women in almost purely sexual terms, I don’t believe they can translate this understanding into practice.”

So apparently father-daughter incest – ie, sexual abuse – isn’t a good idea because in a sexist society fathers are likely to do it wrong?

I encourage everyone with the stomach for it to read the entire Penthouse piece, which also discusses the incredibly creepy views of some other incest “researchers” at the time.

I will highlight more of Farrell’s problematic views in future posts.

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Posted on November 21, 2012, in facepalm, misogyny, MRA, pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles, sexual abuse, victim blaming, warren farrell and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 461 Comments.

  1. Fantastic, though I’m sure you’d like to circlejerk otherwise, I broke up with Ella simply because we wanted different things from life. I did as of recently show her some select posts from AMBZ, as well as some of my posts here – she wasn’t impressed. I admit it was a bit of a punch, because I valued her opinion and I believed she would be supportive – but she doesn’t see eye to eye with my politics in that sense. But then again the Movement is very marginalized, beaten down by mainstream feminists – so I think it’s to be expected that one who has not thought about the issues very much, would side with said m-feminists.

    Although and of course, again, that wasn’t the cause of our breakup, at least not predominantly. Different strokes, that’s all. It happens.

  2. So…Ella got a good look at what you really think and wasn’t impressed. Someone you respected, and who isn’t a feminist or you wouldn’t have dated her, had issues with what you really think.

    Its your perogative, but perhaps now is the time to re evaluate your beliefs?

  3. It’s so sad when you have to break up with an imaginary gf because you want different things, and she’s not impressed with your writings. That should tell you something.

  4. Spank me black and blue if it doesn’t seem as though the Boobz King is running out of material.

    So, uh, just out of curiosity, is this an open offer?

    (As an aside, I’m sorry to hear about your breakup with Ella, and I hope that you take some time to yourself to do what you need to do to cope with the loss before you move on.)

  5. Although and of course, again,

    Oh, Steele. Don’t ever change.

  6. Tulgey Logger—sidestinkappleeye, don’t forget that quote about how “all men are rapists” from The Women’s Room—published the same year as the Penthouse article

    I did forget about that. Fictional characters from old books also prove how evil feminists are. Somehow how old or fictional it is matters not because !misandry! or something.

    thenatfantastic—If war, suicide and violent crime are examples of misandry, you straight rich cis men have a LOOOOOT to answer for mate.

    Or alternatively please explain how they are caused by feminazis, I could do with a laugh.

    I thought the anwser was, hypergamy. Men must kill other men to get shiny things and bon bons for teh ladiez.

  7. Dammit, things always get funny after I go to bed. So let me recap:

    Steele says that a quote from 2006 is too old to be relevant.

    Then he mentions the Titanic.

  8. I also can’t stop LMAO that he thinks he’s exposed me as the creator of the joke blog that’s in my forum signature.

  9. Fantastic’s attempts to demean the men lost as a result of misandry is rank and vile, but then, I expect no more from the disgusting hateblog known as Man Boobz.

    And once you’ve gotten up to speed on the whole reading thing, Steele, the next step up is to improve your reading comprehension—which, judging by this example, is abysmal.

  10. That’s us, just rank-and-vile feminists.

  11. And I don’t, really. There’s no need – today’s misandrists (“feminists”) provide plenty of material on a regular basis. Yourself, Fantastic, HellKell, Says, Warp… misandrists all.

    Okay, it was weird enough when Steele was just doing this strange “act-as-though-the-second-half-of-your-blog-handle-is-your-surname” thing with CassandraSays, but now it’s getting surreal.

    I never thought I would find something Steele is worse at than writing, but it turns out “shortening people’s names in a way that doesn’t look like it was produced by a robot with barely-functioning social interaction algorithms” is it!

  12. I hope Steele does the last-part thing to my name someday. There aren’t enough people calling me “goddess” ;-)

  13. Would I be Ah to Steelepole?

  14. My name will be Hell…

    Mwuahahaha!

    I like it! =P

  15. Why isn’t Hellkell Kell? So many questions?!!??!

  16. How did Hellkell avoid just being called “Kell?”

    And would I be “tz,” or would he use his investigative skills and call me “Manboobz,” the last bit of “Anti-Anti-Manboobz?”

  17. And if he ever irritates someone into snapping at him for mangling their handle, I’m sure “le” would do a victory lap and gloat over it forever.

  18. I’m kind of worried about what Steele would think the shortened form of my name should be. I do not particularly want to be a racial slur, y’know?

    On the bright side, he’s stupid enough that he might decide I should be “Og” or “Iwog,” or something, which would be fairly amusing. :-p

  19. It appears he might just be using a simple last four letters algorithm.

  20. So do we call him Horn or Pole?

  21. I prefer calling him butt. It has four letters, and is related to his name.

  22. I just call him Steele. I don’t think he’s earned a nickname yet.

    I kind of like the name Mikhael, though.

  23. Indeed, we shall never let tedious trolls undermine the coolness of Eastern European names.

  24. I kind of like the name Mikhael, though.

    Indeed, we shall never let tedious trolls undermine the coolness of Eastern European names.

    Agreed. Especially since Mr. Fitzy bears more than a passing resemblance to Baryshnikov.

  25. This distracts you from the fact that Farrell’s opponents are openly breaking laws and blatantly attempting to censor him. If people notice that The Equality Police must shut down free speech in order to maintain their power, we might start to wonder what The Equality Police are trying so hard to hide.

    I’m so confused here. What part of “protesting is exercising your right to free speech” do mra’s not understand? Censorship =/= telling someone you disagree with them or protesting the speech of someone you disagree with. If the government stepped in and forced him not to speak that day we could discuss the censorship involved. But the formation of a picket line is something that free citizens are very much allowed to do when they feel like there is something to protest.

    You can say bigoted and idiotic things until the cows come home but if you’re speaking at my college I’m going to protest and get the word out that someone is using the school I’m paying for to spread hate speech and bigotry to the men who I come in direct contact with on a daily basis, making me feel unsafe attending.

  26. I too am fascinated to learn that picketing is now against the law in the US. I know people were joking about a potential fascist state during the Republican primaries, but we’re not quite there yet, you know?

  27. Just adding my 2 cents in supporting the outing of these monstrous MRAs, misogynists and pedophile enablers. The attitudes on display are those that allowed people like Sir Jimmy Savile, Paul Gadd (Garry Glitter) and Bill W (once a member of a famous rock band) to flourish and continue their perversions. To those of you who have been damaged by the actions of abusers I can only offer my sympathy and a safe internet hug.

  28. Farrell just published what he and others wanted to be normal in 1970s and allowed people like Sir Jimmy Savile and Paul Gadd to flourish. What they wanted was just sickening garbage much of which is now repeated ad nauseam by the MRAs.

  29. This distracts you from the fact that Farrell’s opponents are openly breaking laws and blatantly attempting to censor him. If people notice that The Equality Police must shut down free speech in order to maintain their power, we might start to wonder what The Equality Police are trying so hard to hide.

    So you abjure registerher.com, right?

  30. I like how people who say terrible things think people objecting to those terrible said things are trying to censor them. I find it terribly amusing.

  31. So, wait, when Farrell says something that makes him look bad, it never happened and doesn’t count and it’s free speech anyway, but when somebody quotes what he said it’s lawbreaking and censorship?

    Also, when did “circle jerk” become a verb?

  32. This guy said this in 1977, back when he still considered himself a Feminist. ???

  33. This distracts you from the fact that Farrell’s opponents are openly breaking laws and blatantly attempting to censor him. If people notice that The Equality Police must shut down free speech in order to maintain their power, we might start to wonder what The Equality Police are trying so hard to hide.

    YOu would also go up against all those protesters who harass and terrorize women at health clinics, preventing them from entering the building, shoving them around, taking their pictures, etc.?

    Right?

  34. What laws are being broken?

  35. I wouldn’t equate incest (which is much more of a personal freedoms issue) with child abuse. Farrell is talking out of his ass about child abuse, not really incest. Saying or implying incest in general is wrong because of Farrell being wrong in what he says is lazy ethics.

    As unpleasant as the man is, physically blocking him from giving the lecture was placing a restriction on his freedom of association.

  36. @Motty

    No, he really was talking about parent to child incest…which in the overwhelming majority of cases IS CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE. It happened to me for 8 years, at absolutely no time did I ever want what happened. When someone who is supposed to guide/love/discipline you as a caring parent instead exerts their sexual will over you and treats your body like their personal toy…Yes, that is abuse.

    Now, are there extreme cases where a 20yr old boy WANTS to marry his divorced mother, or a 30yr old daughter falls in love with her widowed father? Yes, and while I can’t understand these relationships, I won’t judge them (so long as there are precautions against having inbred children). These cases do not count in my opinion…they are between two consenting adults, not a 10yr old child and a 35yr old parent, where all the power is concentrated on the adult.

    As for the protesters, I believe they were blocking people from going into the building where he was already stationed. I’d have protested out on the lawn in front of the building so cops couldn’t break it up…but yeah, allowing my college tuition to be used in support of someone like this? You better believe I would protest.

  37. No, they were voicing their outrage that someone who advocates for abuse, incest/pedophilia and ignoring societies views on these matters was being given a forum to spout his bullshit in public. And society does place ALL KINDS of restrictions on personal freedom when that freedom is likely to cause another person harm, especially if that other person has little abilit to defend themselves from the abuse.

    You can split hairs between incest and abuse, but in the end you can’t determine which was which until the child is HURT. Keep in mind that incest grooming etc, typically starts just as kids are entering puberty. Which means they likely don’t know what’s happening to them, can’t put it into words how its affecting them and are threatened or manipulated into being too scared to tell.

    Its like saying that gang violence should really be allowed, since really its just dueling and society having laws against dueling is restricting personal freedoms.

    The police were there, and moved off the protestors, so his “personal freedom” was never in much jepardy now was it? His rights were seen to.

  38. Thank you, pillowinhell.
    I like your points about the “grooming” that starts at/before puberty. It never took with me, I ALWAYS knew that it was wrong…so for me it went pretty quickly from “extra niceness” to threats of hurting my pets or divorcing my mother. Even then, I resisted the worst of it.

    However, I’ve also known other girls who put up with it…not because they liked it, but because of all the extra clothes/jewelry/privileges they got for keeping quiet. I was never in their shoes, so I won’t judge them too harshly…but the thought of allowing yourself to be used for material gain turns my stomach so damn much. :(

  39. I wouldn’t blame them at all. Abused children are frequently called liars when they come forward, or their abuse is downplayed. If the kids believed no one would listen to them and that at best life would continue on as it had or, what they really fear, is that life gets WORSE because the abuser finds out and seeks to squelch any further show of will by their kids AND STILL no one wants to intervene….then the kids really aren’t accepting the gifts so much as trying to make the best out of the horror in their lives.

    I see far too many kids being physically and mentally abused, but CAS refuses to move them because their lives aren’t in “immediate danger” and hey the folks are still cooking dinner right?

  40. I know, it’s all just such a sickening state for any child to be in. Girls, boys…doesn’t matter. It may not even cause physical “damage” in every case, so people are willing to make light of it or worse, completely deny it.

    Just goes to show; The dream of the heterosexual married couple with many kids, big house, wealthy husband and stay at home/part time working mother is NOT always guaranteed to be “the best”. I laugh when people claim that it is. :P

  41. As unpleasant as the man is, physically blocking him from giving the lecture was placing a restriction on his freedom of association.

    I am getting very fucking bored of the idea that objecting to someone advocating rape is somehow worse than, you know, advocating rape.

    There should be a captcha that requires you to define ‘free speech/association’ before you’re allowed to claim it’s being violated on the internet.

    And no, even that wouldn’t violate it.

  42. If people notice that The Equality Police must shut down free speech in order to maintain their power, we might start to wonder what The Equality Police are trying so hard to hide.

    THEY’RE TRYING TO HIDE THE TRUTH, PEOPLE. They’re trying to hide the truth that child abuse is cool! Wait, no… that MRAs are right and fucking 10-year-olds is sexy! Nah… um…THE TRUTH, PEOPLE!

  43. To clarify, I’m not debating what he talks about is child abuse, I’m saying it’s focused primarily on child abuse. The title of the article simply refers to incest, and the article itself refers to “Farrell’s repugnant views on incest”. It’s not his repugnant views on incest per se, it’s his repugnant views on child abuse, that child abuse can be ok if it’s incestuous, that incest can justify it. There’s no discussion by either Farrell or the article here of consenting adults committing incest, which when you’re talking about incest from an ethics stand point is the important thing to consider, because from an ethics stand point, the incest aspect of child abuse isn’t so important, it’s wrong because it causes an actual harm to a child and because we define the child as someone unable to consent. That it is from a parent or guardian might well make it worse, but the incest aspect isn’t a deciding factor in whether it’s bad or good.
    When one limits the freedom to do something to someone who isn’t consenting (or who can’t consent), well, that’s nothing new or particularly different, a lot of crimes are based around that idea. Incest is restricted even with full consent from both parties, which is less common in law and why it needs to be examined from an ethics stand point, why do we restrict the rights of these two consenting adults etc.

    Secondly, protesting is fine, they can protest, they can stand outside and wave banners and shout, but physically blocking him or the people come to see him from doing so isn’t allowed, however shitty his views are, hence why the blockade was broken up. One is physically stopping them from gathering together and sharing their ideas and beliefs, that’s placing a restriction on freedom of association. True, we do place some restrictions on personal freedom, those are legislated. If one believes that this freedom causes more harm than good, you have to go about restricting it the right way and legislate through government. Further to that one must bear in mind that not everyone in society and government will agree with one’s politics and ethics. So if one introduces this kind of legislation restricting certain people’s freedom of assembly, it might well be used to restrict the freedom of assembly of people advocating views one agrees with, but others think is harmful, e.g. gay marriage.

  44. My mom never touched me sexually. But she went into graphic sexual detail about what molesters do to little girls when I was only about 7 years old. I started masturbating at a young age, (probably about 4 or so), but after my mom started in with the weird sex “warnings” and “talks” (I am fairly , all of my fantasies during masturbation involved rape, kidnapping, and sexual torture. I may have not been “actually” raped until I was well into my 20’s, but my mom is almost completely responsible for destroying my ability to have happy or consensual sexual fantasies.

  45. http://judgybitch.com/2012/11/28/things-are-not-always-what-they-seem-a-divorce-story/

    Interesting reading. Apparently in FeMRA land when a man is too immature to be able to communicate martial issues with his wife and passive-aggressively decides to end the marriage by cheating on her so much that she’s left little other options but to pull the trigger, this makes the man a selfless knight in shinning armor. I kid you not.

    I have come to the conclusion that there is simply NOTHING a man can do wrong in FeMRA land, well, other than being an icky feminist.

  46. @themisanthropicmuse
    But, if he hadtold his wife he was unhappy, he would have devastated her. He only cheated to give her a chance to end the marriage and feel like she was in the right. Truly he was the purest of… BARF!

    Yeah, the guy was a giant asshole. If it had been the wife doing that I seriously doubt she’d be afforded the same praise.

  47. I like the “don’t be so sure he’ll cheat” followed very closely by, “JA is not easily kept”.

    A small glimmer of truth managed to slip out.

  48. reginaldgriswold

    I can’t stand the way JudgyBitch writes. Her writing is so cloying and smug, it just makes me ill. I can sit around and read MRAs and FeMRAs all day, but she just hits the resonating frequency of my skull for some reason.

  49. And what do you think with the genders reversed?

  50. What does who think of what with the genders reversed?

  51. Hi Alan, what the fuck are you talking about?

    reginaldgriswold: JB trips my rage centers too. Anyone that smug about their lives is just courting disaster.

  52. “Interesting reading. Apparently in FeMRA land when a man is too immature to be able to communicate martial issues with his wife and passive-aggressively decides to end the marriage by cheating on her so much that she’s left little other options but to pull the trigger, this makes the man a selfless knight in shinning armor. I kid you not. “

  53. Cut the shit, Alan. The MRM regenders and regurgitates that bit all the time.

    Weaksauce.

  54. Do you have a point, Alan?

  55. My point is that Feminism frequently trots out the same pony, but with gender on the opposite feet, and, would themisanthropicmuse still feel it was as ridiculous to put the woman on a pedestal if she had been the victim of long-term spousal abuse.

  56. Alan, you have come no closer to describing what the fuck you are talking about.

  57. Alan, did you even read what themisanthropicmuse linked to? It was about a dude who knew his marriage was over but didn’t want to tell his wife so instead he had a bunch of affairs to force her to divorce him.

    So which pony are YOU talking about? Twilight Sparkle?

  58. Alan, you’re going to have to do better than this.

  59. Ponies with gender-feet. You have to admit, it’s an interesting idea, hellkell.

  60. If you have a love for high heels does that count as having gender(ed) feet?

  61. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Depends. If it’s seventeenth-century court shoes, it’d be men’s and women’s.

  62. Hmmm, ponies with gender-feet. Are all feet the same gender?

    ALAN, I NEED ANSWERS NOW.

  63. My cat is eating my grapes. This is the same cat that likes lukewarm chamomile tea. She’s an odd little thing. Off topic, I know…

  64. My left foot is looking decidedly masculine to me today. (cloudiah squints suspiciously at her feet, while waiting for Alan to answer.)

  65. My old cat loved grapes. He didn’t really eat them to much as roll around on them like they were catnip.

  66. RE: Alan

    …if I was being abused by my spouse for years, I wouldn’t cheat. Seriously, that’d be as dangerous as LEAVING, only without the benefit of actually getting away.

  67. This cat also really loves mushrooms, but only the ones in a takeout dish I get from a vegan place near where I work. I don’t care for mushrooms, so I always bring them home for her and she gets so excited — she eats them, and then rubs her face on the plate when they’re gone. She seems to know I’m writing about her now, because she came over to bat at my fingers.

    I suspect Alan finally got around to reading the linked story, and realized it didn’t say what he assumed it said.

  68. She wasn’t abusing him. Her crime was that she was overwhelmed by the noise and chaos at JB’s house, where they have three kids, and her cheating spouse thought she might only want one child, whereas he thought he might want lots. So instead of discussing it with her, he cheated on her.

    Alan, show me where one feminist, anywhere, applauded a woman for cheating on her spouse instead of discussing things with him.

  69. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Cloudiah – does that mean your cat is a hobbit? :O

    I think my feet are male. They refuse to wear high heels or have their nails painted and only want to wear comfy shoes.

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