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Imaginary feminists shut down debate with other imaginary feminists (allegedly) [UPDATE 2]

UPDATE: In a new post on his blog, Marshall explains what (he says) actually happened. See below for details.

UPDATE 2: AVFM says “Oops!” (See end of post.)

I just hope none of you were planning on attending the Great Vancouver All-MRA Debate on whether or not feminism has “gone too far.” Because the already strange story of this debate has taken an even stranger turn, which seems to involve a large degree of blatant lying from someone, or a bunch of someones, connected to the debate. Which, by the way, isn’t going to be happening, at least not any time soon.

A Voice for Men yesterday announced that the much ballyhooed debate would be “delayed due to outside interference.” The announcement told a dramatic tale:

Chris Marshall, a father’s rights activist and the manager of a Vancouver business where a scheduled debate addressing the question, “Has feminism gone too far?” reported that he has just been fired from his job, and escorted from the premises by Vancouver Police after 30 months of employment. The timing of Mr Marshal’s ejection comes 48 hours prior to that scheduled event.

Well, if Mr. Marshall’s alleged firing and the alleged visit from the police were indeed connected to his political activity, I guess you could call that “outside interference.”

But there is just one little problem with this story. On his blog, Chris Marshall claims to be the owner or co-owner of the car dealership that was going to hold the debate. Indeed, in one post he told this story of how his car lot came to be:

Three years ago I met a white guy named Robert Cortens. (another divorced dad) I told him my story and he said he wanted to lend me $250,000 to open up a car lot that we called CC Motors. We started with 80 cars and are now up to 200 cars in inventory.

We built this dealership with morals scruples and ethics and the concept that a good deal is when we are both happy. We now sell over 100 cars a month, most dealers sell 35 cars. We are now Vancouverʼs largest and most successful used car dealership.

So either he fired himself, and demanded that the police escort him off his own property, or someone is lying.

There are really only a couple of possibilities I can see, given the conflicting evidence out there:

1) Marshall is lying on his blog about owning or co-owning the lot – which seems unlikely, because he’s posted pictures of the lot festooned by banners and signs promoting his website and denouncing the “Lying Legal Horror Lawyers” that Marshall says are “using my son as a pawn for judicial extortion.”  You’d be hard pressed to find a car dealer who would let an employee, even a manager, put banners like this on his business. I think he must really be the owner or co-owner. [Edited to add: Also, as of 9/22/2012, the car dealership’s web page prominently promotes Marshall’s website; indeed, the biggest graphic on the page is not a picture of a car but of one of his father’s rights banners, and the link to his blog is in a bigger typeface than the link to the inventory of the dealership’s cars.]

2) Marshall wasn’t fired. He simply lied to the folks at AVFM about what happened, and they were stupid enough to believe him.

3) The AVFM dudes, realizing that no one was going to show up to watch MRAs debate themselves, have decided to cover up their own organizing ineptitude by simply making up this story, which, as usual, allows them to play the victim once again. They assumed that the MRA masses, both on AVFM or elsewhere, wouldn’t bother to fact check their story and would simply swallow it whole.

4) Marshall had some sort of falling-out with the co-owner of his business, and his removal from the property had something to do with that; AVFM simply took the opportunity to “delay” the debate and to insinuate with no proof that evil feminists were somehow behind it all.

[UPDATE: Apparently #4 is the correct answer. In a new post on his blog, Marshall explains his side of the story:

First, the investor in my  business CC Motors has take away my signing authority and the profits I have created for CC Motors. I have also been banned from the business I built from nothing to a success. I refused to make him a partner in the car business. He is no longer satisfied with the $48,000 a year he get’s for lending me $160,000.

Huh. No mention of feminists complaining about the debate. ]

AVFM seems to have gotten away with their insinuations once again. It goes without saying that the sycophants on AVFM bought the story. On Reddit, while a few commenters in the inevitable r/mensrights thread raised questions about AVFM’s nonsensical tale, most accepted it unquestioningly and  worked themselves into quite a tizzy about the terrible injustice of it all. A couple typical comments from the thread (click on the pics to see the quotes in context):

So if it is AVFM who is lying here, I suppose I should give them credit for another victory of their propaganda over the stubborn world of facts. Not that long ago, you may recall, they got away with claiming a mob of twenty or thirty people “wielding box cutters” had confronted JohnTheOther while postering in Vancouver, when JTO’s own video footage showed only a tiny handful of people taking down his posters. Meanwhile, the AVFMers keep insinuating that feminists shut down the original version of this debate, when according to the original organizer MRAs were at least partially (if not wholly) responsible. And now this.

Actually, even if somehow, magically, everyone is telling the truth about the events surrounding Mr. Marshall, it’s not clear why the debate would have to be “delayed.”  Despite the setback, most organizers would have just moved the event to a new location.  (It certainly wouldn’t be that hard to find a place. Given how many people would likely have shown up, they could probably hold it in a studio apartment, or a large shoe.)

Of all the stumbling blocks that might get in the way of this debate, I would think that the lack of an opposing side would have been a much more serious one – as the announcement notes in passing, no feminists have stepped forward to debate the AVFM crowd, Vancouver Division. Debating an imaginary opponent? Not a problem. Changing location? Impossible.

On AVFM, the person writing the announcement lets us know that Mr. Elam has been informed of the dastardly attack on free speech.

Paul Elam, when informed of these events remarked:

“Those who believe open discussion can be silenced by intimidation, and who may be patting themselves on the back should all be invited to attend the rescheduled debate which will be announced shortly on this site.”

Very slick, Paul, working a plug for a new debate into your entirely spontaneous response to Mr. Marshall’s alleged firing.

Oh, and the new debate, if it ever comes to fruition, will be based on a slightly different question. As the announcement explains:

[I]n light on the resistance among gender ideologues, and the established pattern of censorship, intimidation and threats against the original organizer, a revised premise for the debate is now under consideration.

“Is feminism a hate movement?”

This debate is never going to happen, is it? I wonder what they’ll blame next time. Feminist caribou?

EDITED TO ADD: The fellas at AVFM have now run a … I don’t know, but it looks sort of like a correction of some kind, atop their original post:

I guess it would be too much to expect them to offer an apology of sorts for all the imaginary feminists they pointed their giant A Voice for Men Foam Finger of Insinuation at in the original post.

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Dani Alexis
Dani Alexis
8 years ago

Debating an imaginary opponent? Not a problem. Changing location? Impossible.

I believe these were the same terms on which the Republican National Convention was held. (Though, to be fair, moving that convention would have been difficult given its size.)

Darlene Guerra
Darlene Guerra
8 years ago

Clint Eastwood is helping them set it up.

aceofsevens
8 years ago

It’s possible the owner was giving him a lot of leeway to manage and finally got sick of his crap, or wasn’t paying much attention, then started.

timetravellingfool
timetravellingfool
8 years ago

The really sad bit on the mrreddit thread are those guys who are saying ‘you know, of all the possible reasons this guy was fired, it probably wasn’t the feminist illuminati’, all completely ignored by the dudes who are saying ‘ya know, I’d hate to say Terrorist Plot because that might sound crazy, but that sure as hell won’t stop me from saying it!’

Cadence
Cadence
8 years ago

Who else can take on the dreaded feminist caribou?

Fembot
8 years ago

What a bunch of liars. They will never get anything done because they’re too stupid, lazy, and helpless. And they are such an unlikeable group of people, they can’t even get along amongst themselves long enough to get anything done.

Niktike
Niktike
8 years ago

It really is sad, because there are some actual men’s rights issues that could use some advocates. Unfortunately, the MRM is so hateful (and incompetent) that anyone who actually wants to advocate for men’s rights has the choice of either joining a hate movement or just keeping quiet.

PosterformerlyknownasElizabeth

Considering his anger at the divorce, I think he could have been arrested for something related to the divorce (like threatening his ex) and this was just a convenient excuse to cancel the debate.

hellkell
hellkell
8 years ago

I’m betting that Marshall realized these guys were worse than he is and pulled the plug. I can’t imagine any business owner allowing employees to festoon the joint with political/personal banners and signs.

Niktike
Niktike
8 years ago

Except he already had. According to the website for the dealership, he had signs up about how feminazis were taking over the world long before this debate thing even came up. Also, on the webpage, the link to his “A Father’s Story” is actually slightly BIGGER than the link to see what cars they have on the lot.

I know, I can’t imagine a business owner allowing that either, which is why I think he must have actually BEEN the owner.

Jake
Jake
8 years ago

Did anybody, and I know this is a wild idea, try calling the dealership and asking to speak to Chris Marshall?

Sharon Seemins
Sharon Seemins
8 years ago

Setting up a fake firing?

Isn’t this the type of conspiricy theory we usually get on MRA’s cases for?

deniseeliza
deniseeliza
8 years ago

You mean like the conspiracy theory that feminist terrorists used violence and intimidation to get him fired from the business he owns?

pecunium
8 years ago

Not setting up; lying about the cause/refusing to think it might not be caused by “feminism”.

darlene guerra
darlene guerra
8 years ago

Aren’t you the type of guy who disingenuously uses women’s names to troll, Sharon?

Who is “we”, in the context of your last message?

We’re talking about their conspiracy theory and getting on their cases right now.

Thanks for the encouragement.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

The first post on Marshall’s blog is about some judge ordering him to take his website down, dated September 18th. I’d bet this has something to do with his reported arrest.

How do you fire a co-owner, though? Sounds like the person who made the announcement at AVfM is either lying or incompetent. Or maybe there’s a good reason for all of it, but we have such a distant view of this whole debate circus that we won’t get the whole story for a few weeks.

nerdiah
nerdiah
8 years ago

Did you see the reply Elam gave to the commenter who asked why, if the business seemed to be co-owned by Marshall, and already allowed itself to be used to advertise fathers’ rights, it would then go and punish Marshall for the debate?

Elam replies: “That we may never know. My impression is that he was not given reasons that were straight. I find it a very interesting coincidence that after 30 months of successfully managing that business that he was suddenly tossed on his ass two days before a controversial debate…”

Elam’s one disingenuous fucker, huh.

Also, the fact that Marshall can get himself turfed off the premises of the kind business that would put MRA banners on its website kind of suggests there’s more to this “father’s story” than a poor guy done wrong by the justice system.

Fembot
8 years ago

The police would not get involved unless Marshall was engaged in some sort of criminal activity. Perhaps he was harassing judges or his ex wife.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

I feel sorry for their kids, I would hate to have had a MRA as a father. All that public hate directed at the custodial parent, way to make the children grow up without issues. 🙁

Fembot
8 years ago

I grew up with a father who talked constant shit about my mother. Fortunately I knew he was just off his rocker and never took his words to heart. My brother, on the other hand, was influenced by him, and to this day has a problematic relationship with our mother. Some people will say things that are completely false just to try to win sympathy. It’s disgusting.

xardoz
8 years ago

Next debate topic: when have feminists stopped beating their husbands?

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@Fembot, that’s sad, because it meant that you were robbed of having a second loving parent. 🙁

It depresses me a bit that we treat our cats nicer than some people treat their children.

WeeBoy
WeeBoy
8 years ago

I just love that they think they’re so important and dangerous to the feminist cause that we’d spend time plotting the downfall of their debate – time which could be better spent drinking frozen cocktails or watching cat videos.

Dumpster Jedi
Dumpster Jedi
8 years ago

@That depends on whether they are Feminist Caribou, or Straw Feminist Caribou. The latter is scary as shit (they will steal 10% of your penis if you give them the chance! Oh, and your kids), but melt away faster than the Wicked Witch of the West at the first hint of scrutiny. The former doesn’t really do anything threatening of note unless you try to fence them in.

facultades
8 years ago

@Fembot: I read Marshalls blog and I’m suprised it’s still up. He blames everything on the jugdes and lawyers and he name both the son and the ex wife with names.

Fembot
8 years ago

@Kiwi GIrl

My husband teases me for spoiling our cats, and I always say “It’s not like we’re trying to raise them to be independent, productive adults one day.” When we have human children I will definitely stop being such a softie.

Kiwi girl
Kiwi girl
8 years ago

@Fembot 🙂

We have 4, and 2 are sick with what sounds like a cold, the other 2 having shaken theirs off. Once isn’t eating properly, and I’ve been putting vegemite around his mouth. His eyes and nose aren’t as gluggy as they were, and his breathing sounds better, and he’s on drugs (broad spectrum antibiotic, plus cat equivalent of theophylline) from the vet from yesterday. Hoping he will come right soon. I had him in the bathroom with me this morning while I showered, hoping the steam would help him.

We don’t have children, we have furkids instead. 🙂 I don’t think I could be this worried over children.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

Kiwi girl – is it cat flu your two have? It sounds rather like it. One of our long-departed furries was coming down with it when we got him. He was on drugs, I think (long time ago) but what your shower comment reminds me of was our vet’s advice to do the Vicks-in-steam thing with our boy. Cat in carry basket, bowl of hot water and Vicks in front, towel over the top.

All I can say is, it worked very well. Ewwwww.

Hope your kits get better soon. Definitely always been furkids, not human ones, for me, too! 🙂

Fembot
8 years ago

@Kiwi Girl

I’m sorry your kitties are sick 🙁

I know what you mean about the worrying. My boys are strictly indoor now. I worry too much when they go out. But when I’m out of the house I worry about them being alone, if there’s a fire and they can’t get out. I imagine the worrying will be ten times worse when we have human children.

All of my cats got sick one year (2009) with what seemed like a cold. It was really weird, but they’re all better now.

thebewilderness
8 years ago

Escorted off by a police officer is not the same as arrested. Escorted off is usually about preserving evidence or as a result of a court order.
It is unlikely that this would have anything to do with feminists, unless there was a conspiracy to commit a crime against feminists reported by an employee. On the off chance any feminist would show up at their hate fest.

If, on the other hand, it it is not true that he was fired and escorted off, then that is a pretty incendiary thing for Elam to say and I smell a flamewar meltdown coming.

kysokisaen
8 years ago

I met a white guy named Robert Cortens. (another divorced dad) I told him my story and he said he wanted to lend me $250,000 to open up a car lot

Two minor things: one, why is it so notable that the other Western Canadian in the story is white? Maybe I’m racist but I never really envision the MRM guys as a model UN, so I would have just assumed this unless he said otherwise.

Secondly, I find it kind of amusing that for all the claims that women get what they want by crying in the street about it until some man hands them what they want, that is apparently just how this guy got his car dealership.

Angela
Angela
8 years ago

The comments were particularly hard on the first post. Typhonblue posts something, and the first response calls her a stupid, lying woman. (or at least that it’s hard for a woman to be rational and truthful, but to please try). Her response is to call her attacker a manboober and accuse manboobz of using misogyny on women they don’t like.

I just finished watching an “fatal attraction” ep about people keeping salt-water crocodiles as pets. The psychologist mentioned that people who do this have an ability only to see the good in their “pets” and to rationalize away any negative behaviour as it being not against them.

Females that swim with MRAs in the blogosphere have that same ability to just ignore the attacks on themselves. The men their swimming with believe that AWALT, but the female MRAs continue to believe that they’re smarter than almost all the women out there.

It just makes me want to wash my hands. I’ve seen at least five different women write point blank that they just don’t think they’re smart enough to vote, and if they aren’t, no woman could be. How much do you have to hate yourself and have any amount of autonomy smacked out of you to get from I’m an independent young woman who can take on the world to I’m too stupid to separate my emotions from realty so better let a man do it?

pecunium
8 years ago

I notice he’s spent a lot of time talking about how he might be going back to jail; it seems for contempt of court.

He specifies this is a risk.

I am being set up by a corrupt system that wants me to shut up and go away or they will put me in jail again….I go back to court in September. I have 2 months to rally the people of Vancouver. You can help me fight for parents rights to see there children by making a comment, or you can help a lawyer charge $500 per hour by saying nothing. Please pick a side Canada.

This is September.

PsychoDan
8 years ago

He’s got a new blog post up now, with a new version of the story:

First, the investor in my business CC Motors has take away my signing authority and the profits I have created for CC Motors. I have also been banned from the business I built from nothing to a success. I refused to make him a partner in the car business. He is no longer satisfied with the $48,000 a year he get’s for lending me $160,000. As a result I currently have no money to pay for airfare tickets to come to court.

This story’s kind of weird too, but it seems more plausible than the previous one. Unfortunately for Elam, it doesn’t contain any nefarious feminist plots.

Angela
Angela
8 years ago

oops. *they’re

pecunium
8 years ago

kysokisaen: He makes some odd statements elsewhere… ” He taught me the Chinese way of doing business. Lots of customers and little profit. We lasted for 3 years. He got tired of counting the money and we parted ways.”

Later he specifies that all the present employees are white.

So he implies the previous partner cheated him, and makes sure to both name him, and specify he was “Chinese”.

pecunium
8 years ago

And it looks like a fairly bog-standard business dispute.

nerdiah
nerdiah
8 years ago

PsychoDan: Beat me to it. Can anyone here with business law experience infer from what he’s written what his positions was in the business? Or how he might have been forced from the property?

thebewilderness
8 years ago

I thought so. It looks like he got caught by the forensic accountant with his hand in the cookie jar.

dualityheart
dualityheart
8 years ago

Those MRAs are right to be terrified of “scented *FUCKING* candles”- apparently they can double as napalm if you do it right:

http://io9.com/5944683/how-to-turn-your-scented-candles-into-an-immense-fireball

I have a fluffy baby and a human baby. I will be having my second and final baby in a few weeks at the most. At some point, we would probably like to have two fuzzy babies total, but right now, that’s just not fair considering the lack of places to put a second litter box.

But just as we would do whatever we can to take care of the health of our human child, so too do we take care of our fuzzy baby. He had to have a surgery a few weeks ago to save his life and now he’s on a special prescription diet to keep him healthy. We are willing to do whatever it takes to make sure that the quality of life for our children is the best it possibly can be.

My husband is a wonderful father. It makes me want to vomit whenever these putrescent pustule MRAs call themselves by that word. A father is someone who makes the effort and gives the love and care to his children to help them to grow up healthy and happy and well-adjusted.

They are not fathers- they are simply male sperm providers. Being a father is more than providing half of the DNA to make a fetus.

nerdiah
nerdiah
8 years ago

Stuff it, I’m just going to ask him directly.

http://www.afathersstory.ca/?p=894#comments

nerdiah Says: Your comment is awaiting moderation
September 22nd, 2012 at 2:52 pm

So Paul Elamn’s insinuation that the situation with CC Motors is the result of a feminist conspiracy to shut down the debate is not true? (LInk above).

I hope he answers. That AVfM Press Release is so full of weasel-words and insinuation it hurts to read it (and MRAs think men are the direct ones!).

nerdiah
nerdiah
8 years ago

thebewilderness: “It looks like he got caught by the forensic accountant with his hand in the cookie jar.”

I don’t know how you got that out of what has been written.

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

Females that swim with MRAs in the blogosphere have that same ability to just ignore the attacks on themselves. The men their swimming with believe that AWALT, but the female MRAs continue to believe that they’re smarter than almost all the women out there.

Forreal. Just the other day I posted a link to an article TyphonBlue wrote about how learning how to please men sexually elevates women above livestock (“How a limp dick can save the world”). Now she has the nerve to complain about misogyny directed against herself. How she doesn’t recognize Germanyah’s misogyny as being pretty standard MRM rhetoric is beyond me. “Misogyny at me? Must be from Manboobz, where they jump on anybody who uses misogyny to attack anybody.”

nerdiah
nerdiah
8 years ago

Tulgey: “Misogyny at me? Must be from Manboobz, where they jump on anybody who uses misogyny to attack anybody.”

My favourite bit was when he then started banging-on about rationalisation hamsters and how it’s a “fact” that women are less rational than men, determining for sure that he is in fact an MRA, and she totally doesn’t check that mistake she just made. It’s a mystery how she does it. I blame the hamster.

Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III
8 years ago

I’m loving this debate story, it just gets funnier with every iteration. The whole weird detour through the car yard was awesome. Are public meeting rooms unreasonably priced in Vancouver or something?

thebewilderness
8 years ago

Nerdia, I read this bit:

First, the investor in my business CC Motors has take away my signing authority and the profits I have created for CC Motors. I have also been banned from the business I built from nothing to a success. I refused to make him a partner in the car business.

The investor took away his signing authority on a business he claims to own.

Natalie Lanoville (@NatalieLanovill)

Funny how he made a career out of being a victim of his ex, the justice system and feminists, and how he’s a victim of his career.

kysokisaen
8 years ago

Aw, man, I was going to guess that his description of himself as ‘co-owner’ might be an exaggeration, and that maybe he got busted for trying to scam his “partner”, but I didn’t want to seem too cynical. Plus I assumed this investor/co-owner/partner/fairy godmother was the guy holding the other side of the banner on that website, and maybe friendship counted for something.

There is no “too cynical” with these guys.

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