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Imaginary feminists shut down debate with other imaginary feminists (allegedly) [UPDATE 2]

UPDATE: In a new post on his blog, Marshall explains what (he says) actually happened. See below for details.

UPDATE 2: AVFM says “Oops!” (See end of post.)

I just hope none of you were planning on attending the Great Vancouver All-MRA Debate on whether or not feminism has “gone too far.” Because the already strange story of this debate has taken an even stranger turn, which seems to involve a large degree of blatant lying from someone, or a bunch of someones, connected to the debate. Which, by the way, isn’t going to be happening, at least not any time soon.

A Voice for Men yesterday announced that the much ballyhooed debate would be “delayed due to outside interference.” The announcement told a dramatic tale:

Chris Marshall, a father’s rights activist and the manager of a Vancouver business where a scheduled debate addressing the question, “Has feminism gone too far?” reported that he has just been fired from his job, and escorted from the premises by Vancouver Police after 30 months of employment. The timing of Mr Marshal’s ejection comes 48 hours prior to that scheduled event.

Well, if Mr. Marshall’s alleged firing and the alleged visit from the police were indeed connected to his political activity, I guess you could call that “outside interference.”

But there is just one little problem with this story. On his blog, Chris Marshall claims to be the owner or co-owner of the car dealership that was going to hold the debate. Indeed, in one post he told this story of how his car lot came to be:

Three years ago I met a white guy named Robert Cortens. (another divorced dad) I told him my story and he said he wanted to lend me $250,000 to open up a car lot that we called CC Motors. We started with 80 cars and are now up to 200 cars in inventory.

We built this dealership with morals scruples and ethics and the concept that a good deal is when we are both happy. We now sell over 100 cars a month, most dealers sell 35 cars. We are now Vancouverʼs largest and most successful used car dealership.

So either he fired himself, and demanded that the police escort him off his own property, or someone is lying.

There are really only a couple of possibilities I can see, given the conflicting evidence out there:

1) Marshall is lying on his blog about owning or co-owning the lot – which seems unlikely, because he’s posted pictures of the lot festooned by banners and signs promoting his website and denouncing the “Lying Legal Horror Lawyers” that Marshall says are “using my son as a pawn for judicial extortion.”  You’d be hard pressed to find a car dealer who would let an employee, even a manager, put banners like this on his business. I think he must really be the owner or co-owner. [Edited to add: Also, as of 9/22/2012, the car dealership’s web page prominently promotes Marshall’s website; indeed, the biggest graphic on the page is not a picture of a car but of one of his father’s rights banners, and the link to his blog is in a bigger typeface than the link to the inventory of the dealership’s cars.]

2) Marshall wasn’t fired. He simply lied to the folks at AVFM about what happened, and they were stupid enough to believe him.

3) The AVFM dudes, realizing that no one was going to show up to watch MRAs debate themselves, have decided to cover up their own organizing ineptitude by simply making up this story, which, as usual, allows them to play the victim once again. They assumed that the MRA masses, both on AVFM or elsewhere, wouldn’t bother to fact check their story and would simply swallow it whole.

4) Marshall had some sort of falling-out with the co-owner of his business, and his removal from the property had something to do with that; AVFM simply took the opportunity to “delay” the debate and to insinuate with no proof that evil feminists were somehow behind it all.

[UPDATE: Apparently #4 is the correct answer. In a new post on his blog, Marshall explains his side of the story:

First, the investor in my  business CC Motors has take away my signing authority and the profits I have created for CC Motors. I have also been banned from the business I built from nothing to a success. I refused to make him a partner in the car business. He is no longer satisfied with the $48,000 a year he get’s for lending me $160,000.

Huh. No mention of feminists complaining about the debate. ]

AVFM seems to have gotten away with their insinuations once again. It goes without saying that the sycophants on AVFM bought the story. On Reddit, while a few commenters in the inevitable r/mensrights thread raised questions about AVFM’s nonsensical tale, most accepted it unquestioningly and  worked themselves into quite a tizzy about the terrible injustice of it all. A couple typical comments from the thread (click on the pics to see the quotes in context):

So if it is AVFM who is lying here, I suppose I should give them credit for another victory of their propaganda over the stubborn world of facts. Not that long ago, you may recall, they got away with claiming a mob of twenty or thirty people “wielding box cutters” had confronted JohnTheOther while postering in Vancouver, when JTO’s own video footage showed only a tiny handful of people taking down his posters. Meanwhile, the AVFMers keep insinuating that feminists shut down the original version of this debate, when according to the original organizer MRAs were at least partially (if not wholly) responsible. And now this.

Actually, even if somehow, magically, everyone is telling the truth about the events surrounding Mr. Marshall, it’s not clear why the debate would have to be “delayed.”  Despite the setback, most organizers would have just moved the event to a new location.  (It certainly wouldn’t be that hard to find a place. Given how many people would likely have shown up, they could probably hold it in a studio apartment, or a large shoe.)

Of all the stumbling blocks that might get in the way of this debate, I would think that the lack of an opposing side would have been a much more serious one – as the announcement notes in passing, no feminists have stepped forward to debate the AVFM crowd, Vancouver Division. Debating an imaginary opponent? Not a problem. Changing location? Impossible.

On AVFM, the person writing the announcement lets us know that Mr. Elam has been informed of the dastardly attack on free speech.

Paul Elam, when informed of these events remarked:

“Those who believe open discussion can be silenced by intimidation, and who may be patting themselves on the back should all be invited to attend the rescheduled debate which will be announced shortly on this site.”

Very slick, Paul, working a plug for a new debate into your entirely spontaneous response to Mr. Marshall’s alleged firing.

Oh, and the new debate, if it ever comes to fruition, will be based on a slightly different question. As the announcement explains:

[I]n light on the resistance among gender ideologues, and the established pattern of censorship, intimidation and threats against the original organizer, a revised premise for the debate is now under consideration.

“Is feminism a hate movement?”

This debate is never going to happen, is it? I wonder what they’ll blame next time. Feminist caribou?

EDITED TO ADD: The fellas at AVFM have now run a … I don’t know, but it looks sort of like a correction of some kind, atop their original post:

I guess it would be too much to expect them to offer an apology of sorts for all the imaginary feminists they pointed their giant A Voice for Men Foam Finger of Insinuation at in the original post.

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CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Now I feel bad for initially thinking that wrath was Mr Al. The kid is creepy, but he’s not nearly as creepy as Mr my parents haven’t found a girlfriend for me therefore they must die.

Last time creeper was here I seem to recall that we explained in detail all the reasons why his little scheme wouldn’t work. Apparently none of that managed to penetrate his anti-logic shields.

Fembot
8 years ago

I know this is hard to believe, because PUAs always put out the opposite advice, but being a negative, angry, bitter jerk is not attractive to women. Especially to women who do not know anything about you and are meeting you for the first time. Also, there are appropriate times to approach women. Social situations, bars, parties, classes, yes. Dark parking lots, empty streets at 3 am, alone in elevators, probably no.

Fembot
8 years ago

And where did Wrath mention wanting to kill his parents? Can anyone link to that?

Tulgey Logger
Tulgey Logger
8 years ago

@Fembot, I haven’t been keeping up with “Wrath,” but back when he was Robert P_vis, he talked about how incel is a death sentence and that therefore his parents and government officials are all murderers who deserve death because they refused to set him up with a woman.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

We base our opinions on how well any given issue aids our access to cat videos.

::slaps forehead:: How could I have left out the most important part of the argument?

katz
8 years ago

Nathan, not to worry; we’re always happy to see a rational voice even if the target has been banned. And he is still reading, you know it.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

He’s also one of the scariest, most fucked up trolls we have, so please, go ahead and point that out in as much detail as you like. We have plenty of misogynists here, but believing that the government should be issuing girlfriends to lonely men like they issue food stamps to people who might otherwise go hungry hits a level of women-aren’t-really-people that’s alarming, especially given how common some of the crap he’s using to justify it is.

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

And what’s the bet half these women-as-food-stamps creeps don’t approve of actual food stamps for the poor?

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

Well, but the poor are undeserving, you see, whereas guys who can’t find a girlfriend obviously deserve one.

katz
8 years ago

Wow, everything I’ve seen from wrath has just been goofy and delusional; he must have said something really repulsive earlier, given how everyone is reacting to him.

CassandraSays
CassandraSays
8 years ago

@ katz

He’s the guy who was talking about how the government should set “incel” men up with women, complete with horrible scheme, and how his parents should be killed for not setting him up with a woman a while back. Someone posted a link upthread.

ShadetheDruid
8 years ago

…increased sex and violence in video games.. The fact that feminists oppose all of these illustrates how stupid they are.

Wait, what?

So he’s saying I shouldn’t have spent 4 hours last night exploding heads, setting people on fire and generally ruining their day in horribly violent but awesome ways (also, blowing up an annoying dude’s house with a big cannon.. the best thing ever)?

PsychoDan
8 years ago

And what’s the bet half these women-as-food-stamps creeps don’t approve of actual food stamps for the poor?

He rails against liberals on his blog, so you’re probably right. I wonder what his politics are that he can justify his bizarre government dating scheme within them.

kladle
kladle
8 years ago

time to repost the incel bingooooooooooo

http://imgur.com/nNX1d

The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
The Kittehs' Unpaid Help
8 years ago

his politics are that he can justify his bizarre government dating scheme within them.

“The world owes me orgasms inside vaginas” would seem to be the main part.

Funny, isn’t it (if by funny we mean sad, pathetic and ironic) that these ‘incel’ rants carry on as if an actual loving relationship was something they’re 1) owed and 2) is something they can order, like a meal. This when the ranters show no sign whatever of being able to have loving relationships with anyone – I mean, murdering one’s parents for not setting him up with a girlfriend?

It’s all about what they think they should be given, with these blokes. Nothing about giving anything to anyone, nothing about being loving or caring or actually having feelings at all. They have a totally skewed (or is that screwed) notion of human relationships; not just the obvious heterosexual ones, but everything. It’s all either people owing them something, or them owning people (children and women) or some other form of transaction or commodity.

They really should wear those tee shirts they’re always on about, the ones that make it quite clear how foul they are. “Skeevy douchebag who hates everyone, but women in particular” would about cover it.

Myoo
Myoo
8 years ago

@Kladle
Those bingo cards can be really disturbing when you realize that some people fill up nearly all of it on their own.

kysokisaen
8 years ago

I really doubt that state run dating agency would be any more successful that matched.com for chrissake.

“There are lots of places to meet someone…”
“Like a saucy puppet show?”
“The Federal Sex Bureau? ”
“The rotting carcass of a whale!”
“…mmmm, I’ll pick.”

pecunium
8 years ago

katz: That’s not Varpole. And that dude is creepy. After he got banned he went to the (not very much) effort to find an email addy for me, and sent a long message.

I ignored it, and he’s not done it again, but…

Cassandra: That guy again? The one who thinks that his parents should be murdered because they haven’t found him a girlfriend?

It’s not clear he thinks that… since he was pretending to be someone else; a real person, with his rants. This, of course, is the dire evil of Dave banning him “for no apparent reason”.

Historophilia: May I say that I love your use of “frumious bandersnatch” as an ejaculatory interjective?

PsychoDan
8 years ago

It’s not clear he thinks that… since he was pretending to be someone else; a real person, with his rants. This, of course, is the dire evil of Dave banning him “for no apparent reason”.

I do love how he just glosses over that bit in his re-introduction post. “It was a login issue! I was just accidentally logged in to my account devoted to dragging someone’s name through the mud!”

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

@pecunium

I’m glad you like it, I’m currently making a trial run of using words from The Jabberwock as swear words.

It comes from a family habit of using “Oh frabjous day” as a sarcastic expression.

Oh and that me and my brother used to “galumph”. But that was Arthur Rackham who invented that.

(And if anyone wants to know what galumphing is, try skipping down a hill, that’s basically the motion).

katz
8 years ago

I know he’s not Varpole; he hangs with Varpole. He’s this guy. And yes, definitely more stalkerishness than even an average MRA.

Historophilia
Historophilia
8 years ago

@Fembot, is that you commenting on his most recent post?

Also I thought I’d post the wonder that is “Eric’s” post on the most recent entry:

“‘Change your behavior and lower your standards.’

Attitudes like yours are the ones that produce INCEL men. I would advise you instead to change your own attitude and start treating men like human beings. Raise your own quality so that men actually men actually WANT to have sex with you. But American women can’t do that; hence men either expat or do without.

‘No one owes you sex.’

True. But we men can say ‘no’ just as easily as you women can; and if you want it, you’d better start doing something to earn it for a change.”

So what apparently incels are now incel’s because they don’t WANT to have sex with women?

And actually it’s women who are now having to do without sex and that they need to earn it so “incels” will actually want to have sex with them?

I’m confuzzled.

Pam
Pam
8 years ago

@Historophilia

I guess, according to Eric’s reasoning, incel is a bit of a misnomer and should actually be volcel.

pecunium
8 years ago

katz: Yeah, he’s one of the people who’ve posted here to send me mail at another account. I don’t know how many other boobzers get that. It’s flattering, in a twisted sort of way.

katz
8 years ago

I got him following me to my blog, but that’s all (and to be fair, I did comment on his blog first).

(But he had the default WordPress tagline, the default About page, the default first post, and the default comment! I had to point that out! I’m only human!)

(He deleted my comment and then did all the stuff I suggested.)

pecunium
7 years ago

What I got was his need to “explain” his views on iincel, because Dave had banned him here. Strange, it’s not as if any of it wasn’t anything he’d not said here. I guess he thought that repeating it, to me specifically, would, somehow, be more convincing.

100 percent fail.

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