Young women having sex with guys they’re attracted to: A dire threat to civilization itself
Aside from Men Going Their Own Way and others who have sworn off women altogether, the almost-exclusively straight dudes of the manosphere devote an incredible amount of time trying to figure out how to get into the pants of young, hot, “fertile” women in their teens and twenties, and complain bitterly about the terrible injustice they suffer when these women refuse to have sex with them.
And then they turn around and attack women in their thirties for actually wanting to have sex with them – because these women have committed the dastardly crime of having sex with other men when they were younger. In the parlance of our times the manosphere, this is known as “riding the cock carousel.”
Today we have a lovely example of this latter phenomenon, from prolific manosphere commenter “Deti,” who attacked former “carousel riders” in this rant he left in the comments on The Woman and the Dragon. (There may be lots of equally horrible things in the comments there as well; I haven’t looked. I found Deti’s comment because it was highlighted as a piece of great wisdom on The Private Man, yet another terrible manosphere blog.)
Here’s Deti:
In light of the incalculable damage feminism has done, in light of our society being on the brink of irretrievable and total collapse, I think women need to ask themselves, individually and collectively:
Was it worth it?
Was the cock carousel worth it?
The sex, the occasional orgasms, the attention and validation, the rush, the feelings?
The drunk dancing on tables, the hangovers, the feelings of immediate regret, the knowledge that you’ve just been used as a semen receptacle (for the 14th time)?
We’re off to a rollicking start here. Apparently, table dancing and casual sex (with dudes who aren’t Deti) have brought civilization to its very knees.
Was it worth it?
The ridiculous thoughts to yourself that, no, THIS TIME it will be different. This time I won’t get f**ked over. This time I will get what I want. This time I will save it for a good man, a kind man, the right man — who never shows up.
Did you get what you wanted?
If what they wanted was casual sex with a guy they found attractive, then, uh, yes? (Whether it was good sex is another matter entirely.)
If they were looking for a longer-term relationship, and the guy did indeed turn out to be a jerk or otherwise incompatible, then, uh, no? I’m not quite sure why Deti assumes it’s the woman’s fault if the guy turns out to be Mr. Wrong. (Actually, scratch that: I do know why.)
Did the hot man, the rich man, the sexy man, the alpha, marry you? Did he give you the brass ring of commitment? Did he pledge his life to you? DId he promise to stay around for longer than just until he’s tired of f**king you and putting up with your bulls**t?
Or did you fall (again) for the player’s smooth line that “hey, I think it’s great that a woman like you can have sex with who she wants. That’s only fair. It’s a man’s world, and you should get to partake in it just like we do.”
Yep, that’s right, any man who thinks it’s ok for women to have casual sex with guys they find attractive is clearly an evil, manipulative player. And any woman who believes this is a sucker.
You get out of his bed. You’ve got to get to work this morning. You try to find your panties and put your miniskirt and 4 inch heels on to walk to your car and get an Egg McMuffin and some coffee.
Hey, come on man. Don’t bring the Egg McMuffin into this. Egg McMuffins are delicious.
You add another notch to your lipstick case (one you’ll have to come clean about someday to your therapist or drug counselor or ER doctor, if not your husband). He says “I had a great time. Let’s do it again. There’s some coffee downstairs. Help yourself. I’ve got a lot of things to do today so I need to get going. Sorry I can’t have you stay longer.” You reply weakly: “It’s OK. Call me, OK?” “Sure. You bet I will.”
Desi, worst slashfic writer ever.
LIttle do you know that he just infected you with genital herpes. You’ll find out in a week or so after the incubation period is up and you have festering blisters all over your pubic area. The pain is so excruciating you have to take the day off work, get some treatment at the ER, and stay in bed. You can’t wear panties because the weight of the fabric on the sores is too painful. You can’t walk because the skin on skin friction hurts. Oh well. I’m sure your future husband will understand.
I think we’ve just discovered a new kink: men turned on by the idea of women suffering herpes outbreaks so painful that they have to remove their panties.
In any case, herpes happens. Big deal. It’s a medical condition, not the act of an angry god. Nor is it spread primarily by sleazy players who don’t call women back. According to the CDC, roughly one in six Americans between the ages of 14 and 49 have genital herpes. And, as the CDC notes:
Most individuals infected with HSV-1 or HSV-2 experience either no symptoms or have very mild symptoms that go unnoticed or are mistaken for another skin condition. Because of this, most people infected with HSV-2 are not aware of their infection.
Back to Detiland:
Tell me: does it occur to you that you did it again? Does it occur to you that you’ve f**ked up yet again? Are you getting it yet that the guy who blasted another load on your chest or in your hair last night has no intention of returning the texts you send him, unless it involves an encore performance?
I’m guessing that most women probably aren’t that interested in having any sort of ongoing relationship with a dude who “blasted a load” in their hair on the first date.
Does it dawn on you that maybe what you’re doing isn’t working and maybe you need to try something else? Does it dawn on you that the only things you really got out of last night were a couple of bottles of beer and bragging rights?
And sex, which may have been good or bad. Which is pretty much what the guy got.
It’s 6:45 am on a Sunday morning. You stumble through yet another Walk of Shame across the quad back to your apartment, with your hair and clothes reeking of Aqua Net and stale cigarettes and Old Style and semen.
Like I said: Worst slashfic writer ever.
You pray to God above that you don’t see any of your friends. He smiles on you and today, you are spared the agony of your good friends observing you in all your disheveled, deflowered ignominy. But you see mirror images. You pass by other girls in miniskirts and heels, some of whom lost their bras last night and couldn’t find them. You see other men on their way home, some of whom are hungover, some of whom have little smiles on their faces. You exchange knowing glances with both the men and the women, some of whom you kind of know, others you don’t — but the looks are the same.
“I know what you did last night”.
“I know WHO you did last night.”
Um, no, I’m thinking that most of those who see women walking across the quad on a Sunday don’t actually know who they had sex with, if anyone.
“That sex sucked. But he was hot.”
So again, if a man is crap in bed, women are to blame for not guessing this beforehand?
“I’m never doing this again.”
So as you get home, exhale a breath, disrobe and try to wash the stench from the oddly arousing yet horribly convicting things you did and you allowed another human being to do to you, on you and in you, do you ask:
Is this worth it?
I have a question of my own here: WTF is a “horribly convicting thing?”
Do you have anything more to show for your life than N>10, an STD, recurrent UTIs and probably an abortion in there somewhere?
If you assume that women are defined entirely by the bad casual sex they’ve had, then I guess the answer is “not much.” If you assume that women are actual human beings, like men, free to live the sexual life they want but not defined entirely by it, then I’m guessing the answer is yes.
Manosphere dudes complain (bitterly) when their critics describe them as dudes bitter because they can’t get sex. It’s hard not to describe them as such when they talk about this shit endlessly, and bitterly, on their blogs.
Posted on September 19, 2012, in alpha asshole cock carousel, alpha males, antifeminism, armageddon, bad boys, disgusting women, evil women, grandiosity, hypocrisy, misogyny, oppressed men, sex, shaming tactics, shit that never happened, sluts and tagged alpha asshole cock carousel, alpha males, anti-feminism, bad boys, hypocrisy, manosphere, misogyny. Bookmark the permalink. 530 Comments.
And you know what? I know a lot of people who are still riding the cock carousel and having a fucking amazing time! And so are their partners!
I think if these dudes ever found out about the east coast poly scene it would cause an Envy Singularity.
“Envy Singularity” love it! :D
Oh, I didn’t even realize that was our
friendvery own troll sunshinemary’s blog. It’s as disgustingly misogynist as you’d think!“make women behave with gratitude and humility”
See also: people who think The Handmaid’s Tale was an instruction book.
Hasn’t she said that physical abuse isn’t enough of a reason for a woman to divorce her husband? “Congenital discontentedness,” what the fuck. Isn’t it amazing how complex the idea that women don’t have minds of their own can get?
“gently trying” lol
From her stints here, it’s pretty clear to me that she probably put it in exactly those terms.
Seems pretty reasonable to me. Does sunshinemary even think at all? Or does she just think that women go from sugar daddy to sugar daddy or live off of “Big Daddy Government” all their lives until they find a beta? I mean, how detached from reality must one be to even say this bullshit.
tl;DR: woman obsessed with policing other women’s nonconformity to traditional gender roles is genuinely scared by the MGTOW because she doesn’t understand women fending for themselves but thinks it’s okay bcuz The Apostle Paul.
What if I have promiscuous sex and don’t seek out alpha cock? Can I still have a husband if I have several reference letters from virgins I’ve deflowered?
Don’t you just love sunshinesoutofherarse’s assumption that being single and/or childless is unwanted? Or that ending a failed marriage ‘destroys’ lives?
Hello! I’m a long-time lurker, but apparently not long enough, because I can’t figure out what N>10 is about.
Kittehs: I know, right? You mean that if I’m promiscuous and career-driven I won’t have to have kids? OH NO BRER FOX DON’T THROW ME IN THE BRIAR PATCH.
I’m guessing that whatever terms she used, these women (if not imaginary) gave her the side-eye and slooooowly backed away from her.
LOL ozy, me too, me too!
And what about those of us who don’t want kids under ANY circumstances? I guess we’re just unnatural …
Poor Mary. I actually do feel kind of sorry for her. It must be terrible to have so many Daddy issues and not trust in yourself enough to take a piss without some man’s permission.
For myself, if I wanted a Daddy, I’d still be living at home. But there’s a reason I grew up and moved away to start my own life as an independent adult.
YAY for being “unnatural,” then.
Actually, I bet sunshineoutherbutt could even drive away imaginary people.
Well, remember Andie (of scented candle fame) said if the idea of ending up childless doesn’t scare you, you aren’t a real women. I think most MRAs agree with this. Somehow, they always find a way to deny the existence of things that don’t fit their world view.
This is just…strange. The assumptions made do not bear any similarity to anything I’ve ever experienced. They seem created out of thin air.
Most women have casual sex in their 20s. They are unhappy with this, but keep doing it. They are sleeping with ‘alphas’ to try to get a relationship. No man would ever choose a relationship over casual sex, so they all are smiling while the women are crying. Women who have casual sex are less likely to have a happy relationship/marriage. All women actually want marriage and kids. Feminism has somehow caused this. (Wait, but the women are wearing heels and makeup! I though feminism hated heels and makeup!)
I really don’t think I’m that unusual…I don’t know that many people who go out clubbing and sleep with people they don’t know. And those I do are pretty OK with this, regardless of their/their partners’ gender. Those who aren’t OK with this don’t really do it more than once or twice.
The idea that Women all want the same things, and Men all want the opposite things, just seems really stunted and unhealthy. People are individuals and all. I feel like I’m from a totally different planet when I read this stuff.
I think some people are just not good at LTRs. Maybe this has more to do with their personality that their notch count. But to MRAs, a woman’s notch count IS her personality.
I’m sorry, but “notch in your lipstick case”? Pat Benatar? Really? I was into this rant until I read this line, and now all I can hear when I try to read it is “Hit Me WIth Your Best Shot” in my head. Totes ruined it for me.
To paraphrase our host, this comment contains some sarcasm.
@ Kitteh’s Unpaid Help: You, my dear, may not just borrow it. You may keep it, to use against MRAs whenever you wish
+ internet high-five for the childfree lifestyle :D
Emily: It means having had more than ten sexual partners.
it’s funny how he doesn’t realize you can’t lecture people about something when they know more about it than you. i’m 29 and so far the carousel gets better every year!
what i understand about dude’s insane rant is that i had some of those same fears when i was a catholic virgin. i was so bombarded by the message that sex was better for men and degrading for women that when i first started having sex i was OCD about everything being perfectly reciprocal. that way, i figured, no one could look down on me for what i was doing, because they had just done the same thing.
i lightened way the hell up when i realized that a lot of the things i had worried were degrading were actually not degrading, were in fact fun, were in fact so fun that the men and women i was sleeping with enjoyed them, too. and nobody was degraded.
oh my god, all the casual sex would have been worth it if this one lesson was the ONLY thing i got in return. the world is so much brighter now without this scary cloud of scary sex fear hanging over it.
but i got so much else in return! orgasms, laughter, heartbreak sure, but also love, also just lust with charming darlings who MADE THE COFFEE FOR ME THE NEXT MORNING, NOT THAT THEY HAD TO, friends who are still friends now! lovers who are still lovers now! self-confidence, new motor skills, new negotiation skills, which i can use on my current boyfriend, who does not mind if i see the other lovers sometimes! how is this possibly hurting civilization?
I though deti’s comment was extremely moving. The current SMP is a dark, dark place. Promiscuity is incredibly bad for women on many levels. You are doing a great disservice to them by perpetuating the myth that they can sleep around like men without it seriously scarring them.
Also, in my reading in the spinstersphere, I can tell you that many women have ended up childless and unmarried when they didn’t wish to be. My aim is to tell them how their refusal to take their hunt for a husband seriously in their youth, along with their sexual promiscuity, and their careerism led to their predicament. I do this out of love, in hopes of teaching other young women what *not* to do.
@sunshinemary, ok so setting aside for a moment the fact that numerous women in this comment thread alone have explained that they are happily married after a promiscuous youth, do you acknowledge that women exist who don’t want marriage or children?
Or we don’t want marrigae/children OR that we aren’t desperate to be in relationships at all…
Mary, how on earth do you manage to sound so self-righteous and stuck up? Is it an inborn talent or a learned skill? I’ve tried to do it for years and still can’t manage it.
It isn’t only my readers who express a strong preference for virgins or low N women. A number of surveys of men in general have found similar results, even from secular sources.
… Can you provide these secular sources?
here’s some anecdata: of the approximately 30 men I’ve boned, at least the last 20 weren’t hung up on low N’s :)
Maybe so, but if they think there’s something morally valuable about not being promiscuous, they obviously have a very different value system than people who are all, “Eff yeah, casual sex!” Why would people from the latter group want to shack up with folks from the former group in the first place?
What’s a low N? Low number?
This would explain the propensity to pedophilia, would it not, Mary.
Mary: Great. If other people refuse to date women for silly reasons, then there are more women for me. Nothing wrong with this system.
seriously, though, i have never run into this problem. i want to tell all the impressionable young women who read your blog that they are not actually over a barrel here. if they don’t like the double standards these conservative men espouse, they can date more progressive men! there are dudes out there who think experience is sexy, and among the ones who don’t, there are ones who at least embrace a basic kindergarten sense of fairness.
Zanana, most women want to marry. Men don’t want to marry sluts. Do the math.
Also, you asked me to acknowledge that some women don’t want to marry and have children. Of course that is true. I am not speaking to or about them. However, one-fourth of American women end their reproductive years without having had a child. Do you honestly believe that 1/4 of women don’t want children? That does not make any sense from the evolutionary standpoint which progressives espouse.
Mary, you’re conflating “evolutionary standpoint” with the notion that everyone is an individual with different thoughts, feelings, goals, and desires, and shouldn’t be forced to all live the exact same lives. As usual.
Dear Susie Sunshine, sometimes shit happens and people aren’t able to do all the things they want to do. It doesn’t follow from that fact that your traditionalist dogma about women only being fulfilled by their god-given roles actually reflects reality.
This is way off topic, but I have to ask. When you were little and your rode the carousel did you have a favorite that you chose every time, or was that just me? I am having trouble with their analogy.
Sunshine, you don’t really understand how evolution works.
Citation needed.
Citation DEFINITELY needed.
If they actually wanted children, they would go to a sperm bank.
Haha evopsych is not “the evolutionary standpoint,” it’s a ridiculous pseudoscience spread by MRAs who want to remove the stigma of being a rapist.
Thebewilderness, I always rode the tiger, if there was one. If not, the purple pony would do me just fine.
(There’s a metaphor for my sex life in here somewhere, but damned if I can tease out what it is.)
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/06/25/childlessness-up-among-all-women-down-among-women-with-advanced-degrees/
Sunshine’s statistic is exaggerated, perhaps, but close. What I want to know is why the fact that women have less children as they get less oppressed means they pretty much all want to have children.
If all most women wanted was to marry they could easily do so by the time they are twenty. Most women want more out of life that simply to marry any old body or another.
I’m quite interested in her want a child= have a child and don’t want a child= dont’ have a child. Imean, there’s infertility, and she seems to be one of those who think abortion is the devil which would suggest that she supports having kids even if you don’t want them.
@sunshinemary- How do you explain the inexperienced guys I’ve slept with who were EXCITED to be with a more experienced woman who could show them the ropes? Or the fact that only one of the approximately 11-12 guys I’ve been with has cared even a little bit about the number of sexual partners I’ve had, and the rest either didn’t ask or were totally cool with the fact that I’ve slept around? Or the fact that I have turned down nice guys who were not relationship material both before and after several years of sleeping around? Or really, anything about my sex life?
Tulgey, I’m in law school, have been an independent adult for 18 years now, and not once has it crossed my mind that having children might be a good idea. As a matter of fact, having been raised in a mormon family, having children in my mind was equated with slavery. Not really to my taste. Slavery for me had better involve a service contract, a collar, and being flogged and forced to recite parts of the Uniform Commercial Code. I’ll leave the diapers and bottles to David Vitter, thanks.
Mary in the US twenty percent of women choose not to have children and do not give two pins for the evolutionary standpoint.
Okay let’s say that life turns out in such a way that a person who wanted to have children is unable to. They could adopt a child, become a mentor, teach at a daycare of elementary school, or become a coach. There are so many organizations that need volunteers that work well with kids, and a person who isn’t a parent probably has more time to do that. They could also spend their time babysitting their nieces and nephews or the children of their friends. I know as a mom, that I never turn down a free babysitter. So there are options for people that love children but can’t become parents.
@ tulgey- It’s almost like… kids are a big responsibility… and women who have access to education and career satisfaction… choose to invest in that life instead of in cleaning up puke and listening to toddler tantrums. Huh.
Hey, dudes of Manboobz, raise your hand if you’d be happy to marry a slut!
(raises both hands)
@Mary, you know what I am more than fine with is the probability that this whole “men don’t like sluts” argument is a facade to hide the fact that you and maybe lots of your readers don’t like casual sex and need a reason to avoid it. you can avoid it and you can tell stories about why you need to avoid it more, if that’s comforting.
but for all the conservative girls who read those arguments and feel sad, and wish the world wasn’t so unfair, I want to tell them to come check out the east coast poly scene- it’s awfully nice!
(they are probs going to have to watch this video first http://measureofdoubt.com/2012/02/20/how-to-want-to-change-your-mind/
btw, I love this video. did I find it through someone linking on here?)
And another thing! If men don’t want to marry “sluts” then why does almost every single MRA declare their ex wives to have been “sluts”? Cuz, yanno, logic.
Yep, I’m feeling warm and tingly aaaaaaaaall over.
I sure would!
I mean, since mary’s working definition of “slut” seems to be “woman who has sex before marriage” I think it’d be pretty challenging to find men who wouldn’t.
I doubt most of the women who don’t have kids, but want them, are having that issue because they slept around too much. I’m not saying there aren’t people who wish they’d had kids. But I doubt there’s a huge contingent of women out there who are totally unable to ‘get a guy’ due to having slept with more than 2 people. Not all guys even *ask* that question, and generally that conversation is going to happen later in a relationship. I’ve never met anyone who has dumped someone or been dumped upon the revelation of partner-number.
And if this were really such a huge issue, there’s always lying.
Ozy: *raises hands* I did marry a slut!
sunshinemary, you don’t do anything out of love, you do it because you’re an incurable busybody who hates her life.
Ozy, sorry, you said dudes. I’m not a dude, but the point still stands.
rjjspesh: “+ internet high-five for the childfree lifestyle :D”
Kitty high-five!
Non-dudes of Manboobz, you are also free to answer this question!
*raises both hands and feet, falls backwards onto the floor*
Is anyone tired of these MRA discussions where they divide everything into black and white? You’re either a slut, or you’re pure. You’re either a career woman or a dedicated mom. Men are alphas or betas. You take the red pill or the blue pill, blah blah blah. It’s almost like they’ve never figured out that people are more complex than A or B.
Um… hey Mary…
What if I told you that I don’t give a shit about a woman’s history? Why does it matter? what’s so important about it?
Right back atcha!!
And at 57, I’ve never regretted it!!
David, for the record, slashfic is same gender (i.e. Kirk/Spock). This is just… badfic.
As someone who never set foot on the carousel, I say deti can fuck right off. The closest this guy has ever gotten to having sex with anyone was watching bad 80s movies, clearly.
::picks Tulgey up, brushes dust off::
I guess Mr Kitteh was a slut (or would’ve been, if he’d been a woman, but we know menz totally can’t be sluts however many people they have sex with) ‘cos he’d slept with More. Than. One. Person (male and female! The horror!) before we got together.
(Parentheses were half price today.)
I’d RATHER marry a slut! As long as he was willing to be monogamous with me! Then we could take years of mutual sluttitude and have fabulous sexytime adventures together!
Hahaha!!!
Sunshine Mary, I didn’t have sex at all until I was twenty two. Do you have any idea the number of men who didn’t want to be my first partner when they discovered my virginity? Tons. Largely because they didn’t the awkwardness or to be the cause of pain because they didn’t think they had the chops in bed or most especially, because they wanted an experienced partner.
I was raised to think much like you do (although the mindless subservience would have raised hell with my mother). Being a virgin, and polite and lady like never brought me a marriage proposal.
I’m sure that the way I am now would be quite shocking to your delicate sensibilities, yet because of my high partner count and experience in relationships I have a partner eager to marry me. And guess what…marriage has never been a priority, it doesn’t make even make my bucket list. Yet here I am in a long term commited relationship with a very kind, stable man who has integrity. And this is not uncommon.
Also, I like how you rub in the hurtful shit to your friends to set them up as object lessons to scare younger women. With friends like you, no one needs enemies.
I had one boyfriend who was concerned with my past, though he never outright asked for my notch count. But he turned out to be an insanely jealous, manipulative, rage-aholic asshole. He was the same boyfriend who didn’t want me to get a teaching job because he thought I might have an affair with a male teacher. Thankfully, he is now out of my life.
@ Sunshinemary- why would any woman want to marry a dude who thinks of a woman as a slut? Fuck those guys in a strictly metaphorical sense. God, imagine spending a month with such insufferable assholes, let alone the rest of your life! Please, all dudes who don’t want to sleep with sluts, proclaim yourselves loudly and often so women can avoid the crap out of you (and then moan about how you can’t land any women between the ages of 14 and 22 and join the MRM).
1. Who the hell wants a guy who demands virginity? Every virgin I know is completely creeped out by that guy.
2. What makes them think the guys that women date/fucking around with are completely different from the guys they marry?
Reading Mary’s comments, I have to wonder if she actually has any friends, or merely unfortunate acquaintances she uses as object lessons.
I don’t think any dude over the age of 22 has ever asked about my sexual history, and younger ones who asked were just curious because they were inexperienced and wanted to know more. Crazy backwards think is not the status-quo.
Hey, dudes of Manboobz, raise your hand if you’d be happy to marry a slut!
Yes, but that’s only a partial answer. When I was dating (I’m now married for 6 years) I never asked the women I was involved with about previous lovers because it had nothing to do with me or our relationships. Maybe some of the women I dated were sluts and I never knew, which would matter if I gave a damn and I didn’t and don’t.
In the unlikely scenario where I met a 30 plus year old virgin, I don’t think I’d have a problem with it. However, I’ve slept with guys with very high partner counts and it meant absolutely nothing. Not even in terms of how “experienced” (or creative in bed and open to new things) he was. The only thing that counts is that he’s had at least one partner and I do ask for STI results. That’s it.