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Gold-digging c**ts and over-inflated pussy: An A Voice for Menner “refutes” Roosh

Paul Elam has so far refrained from responding to the halfway-on-the-mark, halfway-completely-ridiculous criticism of the Men’s Rights movement leveled by rapey PUA douchenozzle Roosh that we discussed yesterday. Not even that bit comparing the very serious dudes reading A Voice for Men to silly ladies reading Cosmo was enough to provoke the oh-so-easily provoked Elam. Either he’s gotten very Zen about criticism from PUAs, or he’s spent the last several days punching pillows and muttering under his breath about evil “pussy beggars.”

But some of Elam’s acolytes took it upon themselves to respond for him. My favorite comment is this bait-and-switcher from MrStodern, which starts off with a vaguely reasonable observation before descending into misogynist nonsense.

Apparently feminists love pickup artists, and the only legitimate reason for dudes to have sex with women is to teach them a lesson. Who knew?

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Posted on August 30, 2012, in a voice for men, antifeminism, cock blockade, creepy, evil women, internal debate, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, paul elam, PUA, rapey, rhymes with roosh, sex, vaginas and tagged , , , , , , . Bookmark the permalink. 178 Comments.

  1. Your schtick is boring. And it’s a loss for all of us.

    you should probably stop posting here obsessively, then, kiddo

  2. Well, it is true, I do think systemic, repeated, prosecutorial abuse against citizens of our country outweighs some guy’s rantings, and does far worse in real life to real people than a few lines of text left on a blog.

    I am somewhat surprised you would prioritize a story of a blog comment over that of a abusive prosecutor.

    I am curious, where did you get your journalist degree from? They must have an interesting program there.

    Why are you so concerned about his job? He does not run this site for a living. He doesn’t need to make serious reports about things that don’t relate to the blog. Didn’t you read the subtitle of the site (Misogyny. I mock it.)? Why would he write a report on corrupt politicians when thats not the point of the blog.

    If you are so concerned why not make your own blog?

  3. This one time, I found a blog that talked about knitting. Every day, post after post about wool vs synthetic, which companies made the best yarn, what types of needles to use. It was so boring. So I decided to comment every day telling them how bored I was and how they should be talking about issues I care about, like origami.

    Oh wait, I didn’t because I’m not an idiot like bored guy!

  4. I am curious, where did you get your journalist degree from? They must have an interesting program there.

    first you tell us where you got your degree is passive aggression from

  5. Perhaps it’s the lack of a “journalist degree” that’s preventing Some guy… from starting his own fucking blog where he can talk about whatever the fuck he wants.

  6. Well, it is true, I do think systemic, repeated, prosecutorial abuse against citizens of our country outweighs some guy’s rantings, and does far worse in real life to real people than a few lines of text left on a blog.

    I am somewhat surprised you would prioritize a story of a blog comment over that of a abusive prosecutor.

    Prove it. Prove it with credible sources. And then show that it isn’t an isolated case. And then prove that it is an example of misogyny. And then prove it is worthy of mocking. Because until you do that, you look like a fucking idiot asking David to write about it on this blog.

  7. So I decided to comment every day telling them how bored I was and how they should be talking about issues I care about, like origami.

    Did they fold?

  8. Did they fold?

    Frequently, it was part of the problem.

  9. Ok, I confess. I’m not really a journalist. I’m actually a podiatrist. My whole life is a lie.

  10. Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III

    Did they fold?

    +1 internet

  11. some guy bored with your schtick

    Cloudiah, I linked to a report that included statements from the Maine Bar and statements from their Supreme Court.

    All you need to do is google her name.

    You know how to google, don’t you Cloudiah? Just put your fingers together, and type.

    http://fenceviewer.com/site/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=76613:hancock-county-prosecutors-misconduct-hearing-delayed&Itemid=938

    http://rt.com/usa/news/kellett-rape-filler-ellsworth/

  12. some guy bored with your schtick

    “My whole life is a lie.”

    I don’t know about your life, and I am sorry if you feel that way, but this blog certainly is a lie and pulls from every bad practice unethical journalists use.

  13. I’m a professional dog-sitter. I have a degree from sitting school.

  14. Ok, I confess. I’m not really a journalist. I’m actually a podiatrist. My whole life is a lie.

    Oh no! You’ll have to be fired from the Professional Real-Life Totally A Newspaper that is Man Boobz! Only those with journalist degrees need apply here!

  15. some guy bored with your schtick

    My guess is that you know it too.

  16. Add “sarcasm” to the list of things bored guy just doesn’t understand.

  17. Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III

    The blog is a lie? Then what am I posting on?

  18. You know how to google, don’t you Cloudiah? Just put your fingers together, and type.

    This seems like an exceptionally difficult way to type.

  19. Some guy: There were a whole lotta other parts to my comment. Please try to follow along!

    David: I may have bunions. This is the perfect blog for me.

  20. [quote]I don’t know about your life, and I am sorry if you feel that way, but this blog certainly is a lie and pulls from every bad practice unethical journalists use.[/quote]
    That’s technically true, given that the ethics of journalism have been twisted into such a thing that you can no longer say that someone is factually inaccurate, and that we as a society have twisted journalism into representing both sides of anything as equally valid.

    I mean, it’s not really a problem, but it is kind of true based on that. :D

  21. I’m pretty sure that “not dropping everything to write about whatever Some Guy on the internet wants me to write about on my blog which is not actually about that topic” is not a breach of the Ethical Journalist Hippocratic Oath. Nor is “accurately quoting misogynistic doofuses and making sometimes funny comments about them.”

  22. Seriously, Some Guy Obsessed With Your Schtick, just fuck off. Nobody buys this obvious lie you keep trying to sell.

  23. but this blog certainly is a lie and pulls from every bad practice unethical journalists use.

    This isn’t a professional journalist blog, its a casual personal blog dude.

  24. True, I mean now actual paid journalists are outsourcing fact-checking to “fact-checkers” when (silly me) I thought that was what journalists did. (Not including David in that, BTW.)

  25. i am ttrying to trype wiuthj tweo fingersd troghetgher

  26. Cloudiah, dip your feet in honey and let a bear chew off your bunions.

    I should note I was expelled from the Official League of Podiatrists and given a very stern talking to for my innovative yet feared and misunderstood theories of Bear-assisted podiatry.

  27. You’re pulling from every bad practice unethical podiatrists use!

  28. Step 1: Find a bear.
    Step 2: Soak feet in honey.
    Step 3: Offer feet to bear.

    Given that Glen Bearian has now been caught and exiled, I may have a hard time with Step 1.

  29. you didn’t exactly call roosh a rapist, but you did describe him with the weaselly adjective “rapey”. are you accusing roosh of rape? if so, that is an extremely serious charge that should not be made without evidence. sexual behavior that you consider morally objectionable is not the same as rape.

    if not, why are you insinuating that he is a rapist by calling him “rapey”?

  30. Lured in by a trap of bacon and honey? I wonder how many people they had to pull out before the bear came along.

  31. Some Guy Bored Of some guy bored with your schtick

    @some guy bored with your schtick

    I think your comments should focus on the life expectancy of hippos because thats a far more noble pursuit. You are a failure of a commenter if you don’t start changing. Please reconsider or you might have to turn in your commenting badge.

  32. Bored troll is so bored he:
    a.)can’t leave
    b.)can’t capitalize his name
    c.)can’t stop posting
    d.)has to keep telling us how bored he is
    e.)keeps insisting david needs to blog about stuff he wants to blog
    f.)begs us to do his research for him
    g.)keeps asking david random questions
    h.)quotes and responds to himself
    i.)must defend elam
    j.)must constantly bring up david’s journalism
    k.)must insist atheism+ is totally like the split between pua and mras
    l.)has to keep making passive aggressive remarks
    m.)has to explain how rape jokes are like banksy
    n.)makes up obvious lies
    o.)must explain how Thomas Ball’s suicide was activism

    Funny you have been doing a lot here for someone who is so bored of this site…

  33. This blog also never covers real issues like the conflict in the middle east, genetically modified food, or animal abuse! ZOMG FEMINAZI!

    Uh, yeah, I’m pretty sure ‘this blog doesn’t cover real enough issues’ is not actually anybody’s problem with it, and it doesn’t even work as a smokescreen.

  34. it’s not even, ‘why don’t you cover real issues’ it’s ‘why don’t you cover this one woman paul elam has decided to obsess over’

    dude is pissed off that the blog that spends a good chunk of time making fun of paul elam isn’t being enough of a mouthpiece for paul elam

  35. david why arent you doing more to expose that chair clint eastwood is really mad at

  36. david why arent you doing more about the fact that the deaf cat decided that 1:30 am was the right time to want to explore my room and it’s not like i can kick her out because she’s just so adorable and sweet and deaf and oh shit i think the devil cat just saw i let deaf cat in my room i am going to pay for that

  37. And David practically never talks about boerboels.

  38. New theory – some guy is a performance artist intent on demonstrating various theories about how privileged people behave on the internet. He’s just too perfect an example of the concept “arrogant privileged jackass” to be real, right?

  39. Roosh isn’t going to sue. He’d have to come for the US for weeks to do so and who’s he going to fuck while he’s here?

  40. david:

    the roosh post you link too has plenty to criticize, including the notion that women who have voluntarily removed their clothes can’t be raped, and that men are unstoppable penis robots. but the notion that some women sometimes say “no” when they don’t literally mean it shouldn’t be controversial, imo. my first girlfriend was extremely frustrated with me when i took her pre-coital “no”s at face value. finally, she explained that she wanted me to be more aggressive in bed. with sexual experience, it gets pretty easy to use tone-of-voice and contextual clues to tell when this sort of thing is going on, and when it isn’t.

  41. @Jimmy
    You should never assume thats what a woman means, if she was using “no” as a means to tell you keep going then she should have discussed it with you beforehand. It doesn’t hurt to take things at face value if you aren’t sure with stuff like “stop” and “no” so its not really a legitimate claim. If someone tells you to stop or no then you should stop even if they don’t seem uncomfortable to you because if you keep going and they don’t want you to you are fucking raping a woman.

    I think tone/body language is important too though, if the person you are with seems to be uncomfortable or not enjoying it then you should stop and make sure they are alright. It doesn’t hurt to communicate clearly but just because they said yes or didn’t say anything doesn’t mean they are okay.

    Also roosh was talking about raping women even if they struggled/fought/said to stop, did you even read the thing he linked to? He wasn’t talking about women who mean hell yeah when they say “no” he was talking about ignoring a women’s pleas because women secretly like to be raped.

  42. Jimmy: Dude, the guy talked about rape game, in what he himself called rape, and specifically endorsed it. “Rapey” honestly is giving him too much wiggle room at this point. And yes, devaluing consent is, in itself, rapey\, which is what he was doing. Don’t play games and try to confuse what the idiot is talking about.

    my first girlfriend was extremely frustrated with me when i took her pre-coital “no”s at face value.

    That’s between your girlfriend and you, you grand idiot. You do not assume that ‘no’ means anything but ‘no’ unless specifically told to by the specific woman you are considering banging.

  43. I’m really tired of the just-so stories from dudes about how they met this one woman who said no and actually meant “try harder”, and therefore by implication if a woman says no then maybe…

    No. Don’t do that. If a woman says no and doesn’t mean it, the worst thing that happens is that neither of you get laid when you might have wanted to. If she did mean it, and you continue, you’re a rapist. Use your words, guys. Why would you want to be sleeping with someone who’s such a child that she can’t just admit what she wants anyway?*

    *I know that the answers are “because this isn’t an actual issue, it’s just an excuse to ignore women’s stated boundaries and pretend you’re doing it for their own good”, “because nothing is more important than getting my cock wet”, and “see, women don’t mean what they say so there’s no need to pay attention when they’re saying something that you don’t want to hear!”.

    *(2)If you and your partner want to roleplay some sort of scenario where no doesn’t mean no, then cool, do that. But be grownups and talk about it first. Someone who can’t do that is not someone you want to be sleeping with for all kinds of reasons.

  44. The idea of Roosh suing someone for calling him “rapey” is hilarious.

    It’s a bit like David Irving suing Penguin Books for calling him a Holocaust denier – not only did he lose, but his entire reputation as a serious historian was forensically shredded as a happy by-product.

    So it would be a gamble. To say the least.

  45. if so, that is an extremely serious charge that should not be made without evidence.

    Yeah it’s totally out of line that hte guy who says you should rape women if it gets you laid, and lays out what that means, may in fact be a rapist. That isn’t remotely supporting evidence.

  46. i should be clear. when this sort of things happens, the “no”s almost always occur well before intercourse. by the time intercourse occurs, it is pretty clear to all concerned that consent has been granted.

    the point of feigning resistance, as i’ve heard it explained to me by several women, is to ascertain whether a man is sexually aggressive enough to satisfy her. “talking about it” before hand, as these women explain it, ruins the vibe, because its supposed to be about the man taking what he wants, whereas the prior “talk” negated the purpose of this. they don’t object to “talking about it” because they are too immature to articulate what they want; they object to it, on the contrary, because they know exactly what they want. the women i’ve met who enjoyed this sort of play are not at all child-like, and are actually quite mature people. calling them “children” is actually a pernicious way of denying women who like this kind of thing agency.

    that having been said, i wouldn’t recommend continuing the progression of foreplay in the face of “no”s, as roosh appears to do. i think the admonitions to “use your words, guys” is very good advice. i have found that a simple “you don’t really mean that, do you?”, said confidently with a smirk, will usually do the trick. at this point, the woman either blush and admit that she does not, or else make it clear that she does. the line serves well because it allows the man to appear confident and aggressive, which is the point of the feigned “no” exercise, while at the same time refraining from violating a woman’s physical boundaries.

    i should say that i don’t know very much about roosh. he may well be “rapey”, as david says. i was merely objecting to the term “rapey”, which i originally thought was used to describe a rapist.

  47. Dude, please stop writing out your sexual fantasies for us. It’s icky.

    Also, again for those who are a little slow – why on earth would you think that something that you’ve experienced with “a few” or “several” women should be assumed to be applicable to women as a whole?

  48. when did i say it was applicable to women as a whole?

  49. the point of feigning resistance, as i’ve heard it explained to me by several women, is to ascertain whether a man is sexually aggressive enough to satisfy her. “talking about it” before hand, as these women explain it, ruins the vibe, because its supposed to be about the man taking what he wants, whereas the prior “talk” negated the purpose of this. they don’t object to “talking about it” because they are too immature to articulate what they want; they object to it, on the contrary, because they know exactly what they want. the women i’ve met who enjoyed this sort of play are not at all child-like, and are actually quite mature people. calling them “children” is actually a pernicious way of denying women who like this kind of thing agency.

    Knowing what you want isn’t immature, but getting pissy with your partner because they didn’t read your mind and magically know what you want is super duper immature.

    I mean, it’s all a moot point because I don’t believe for a second that you’re accurately relaying how these hypothetical women hypothetically described their bedroom preferences, but still.

    (Also, seriously, it’s one thing to want your partner to be sexually aggressive and assertive; it’s another thing entirely to conflate “assertive” with “ignores me when I tell him to stop [without that having been negotiated beforehand].” You wanna talk about pernicious ideas, let’s start with the one that defines rapist behaviour as confidence and sexual prowess. Blech.)

  50. but the notion that some women sometimes say “no” when they don’t literally mean it shouldn’t be controversial, imo.

    You can play as many word games as you like, but it’s pretty clear what your words imply. Also, you’re aware that for women who aren’t into the kind of games you’re describing the way you write about sex produces a feeling rather similar to having spiders crawl all over your skin, right? I quite literally shuddered when reading some parts of your second to last comment.

  51. but the notion that some women sometimes say “no” when they don’t literally mean it shouldn’t be controversial, imo.

    He didn’t say ALL women, you guys, just SOME women, who also conveniently hate being asked if they feel that way and are therefore totally indistinguishable from women who DO mean “no” so I guess men have no choice but to ignore what women say because otherwise they might never get laid.

  52. Ninja’d! Also, inb4 accusations of strawmanning.

  53. Knowing what you want isn’t immature, but getting pissy with your partner because they didn’t read your mind and magically know what you want is super duper immature.

    I mean, it’s all a moot point because I don’t believe for a second that you’re accurately relaying how these hypothetical women hypothetically described their bedroom preferences, but still.

    Pouting because your partner didn’t read your mind is indeed almost comically immature, as is acting like talking about what you want in bed renders sex un-fun. Like gametime, I don’t for a second believe that the way dudebro is describing these women is an accurate depiction of them, but he sure does seem to be getting off on the fantasy that he’s created.

    There’s also the fact that positing this “well some women like it when silent manly men silently take them, as manly men should!” stuff in response to Roosh’s very clear depictions of a situation that would meet almost any legal definition of rape is creepy as hell, especially when you try to backpedal about what you were implying.

  54. the woman i mentioned was in high school, as was i, so its no surprise if that she was immature, as was i.

    whether you believe me or not is something i have no control over. but i never once said or implied that all women like this kind of thing. in fact, i explicitly allowed for the very real possibility that “no” means no when i advised not to continue with foreplay in the face of resistance, whether feigned or genuine.

  55. Obviously we don’t believe you about that last part, but let’s pretend for a moment that we did. What would your point then be, and how would that anecdote be relevant to David’s description of Roosh as rapey?

  56. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    i have found that a simple “you don’t really mean that, do you?”, said confidently with a smirk, will usually do the trick.

    Making a remark like that, especially if it had an accompanying smirk, would get a man kicked out of my bed, house and life, immediately. I don’t like smug, entitled arseholes who think they know what I want better than I do, or who imply I’m playing games or lying, or who demonstrate indifference or lack of care or general selfishness lik that. They’re losers.

  57. “like that”

  58. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    What is it with WordPress changing details between posts???

  59. the point of feigning resistance, as i’ve heard it explained to me by several women, is to ascertain whether a man is sexually aggressive enough to satisfy her. “talking about it” before hand, as these women explain it, ruins the vibe, because its supposed to be about the man taking what he wants, whereas the prior “talk” negated the purpose of this. they don’t object to “talking about it” because they are too immature to articulate what they want; they object to it, on the contrary, because they know exactly what they want. the women i’ve met who enjoyed this sort of play are not at all child-like, and are actually quite mature people. calling them “children” is actually a pernicious way of denying women who like this kind of thing agency.

    Partners who refuse to explain what they want in bed then get mad when you can’t mind read aren’t good partners. I have not met many women who want a man to just “take them without asking despite their protests”. You shouldn’t assume women want you to do that even if you have run into a few.

  60. “Obviously we don’t believe you about that last part”

    again, your faith in my veracity and/or sincerity is none of my concern.

    “What would your point then be, and how would that anecdote be relevant to David’s description of Roosh as rapey?”

    as i said, i do not know very much about roosh, and david’s description may be accurate. my stated opinions in this thread constitute my initial reaction to the post david directed me to. i do think that the phenomenon roosh alludes to in his post is a real one, although i think, as i have said, that there are better ways of dealing with it than taking roosh’s advice.

    “Making a remark like that, especially if it had an accompanying smirk, would get a man kicked out of my bed, house and life, immediately.”

    that is your right and prerogative. what is your point?

  61. I especially loved the attempt to insinuate that anyone who objects to his creepy, disingenuous argument is attempting to deny submissive women agency. We have quite a few submissive women here, and I’m going to guess that what jimmy is describing is not what they’re looking for in a sexual partner.

  62. “I didn’t bother to do any research into this Roosh person, but I strongly felt that David must be wrong about him being rapey, so I had to share my rather creepy theories about how women don’t mean what they say with you.”

    What an excellent way to enter a blog conversation! That always goes well.

  63. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    “What is your point?”

    The point is that your smug assertion of how it “works” is disgusting and contemptible, as is your implicit attitude toward women – even without your defence of Roosh.

  64. A dude who, suspiciously, knows a lot of women who get annoyed by talking because it ruins the mood! We haven’t seen that before! (I feel like putting a sarcasm tag here would be insulting :P ).

    (I mean, that’s not to say they don’t exist, but that they seem to always magical find their way into the friend groups of these guys.. yeah. And I feel like this is a thing that’s been pointed out a million times, but i’m going to do it anyway because i’m feeling.. hardcore).

  65. *magically

    (Making an entire new comment just to correct a typo is also hardcore).

  66. The Kittehs' Unpaid Help

    Oooh, does that mean I was being hardcore before, Shade? Wow! :D

  67. But you know, this MRA guy actually has a few valid points:
    1. By tricking/manipulating/forcing women to have sex with you when they don’t want to you’re not furthering men’s rights, you just make women pissed off. Point!
    2. If you don’t like “gold-digging cunts”, you should avoid them altogether. Point!
    3. If you wanna sleep around, you should do it with sexually free spirited women. Now if “sexually free spirited” means “WANTS to sleep with you”, then again, he has a point!

  68. Off topic,

    But has anyone seen Antz lately? I’m getting kinda worried about him.

  69. But has anyone seen Antz lately? I’m getting kinda worried about him.

    No, but I know what you mean. Of all our regular trolls, he was the one who made me most concerned that he’d do something really stupid in the real world.

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