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More terrible MRA thoughts on Sally Ride

Sally Ride, not thinking about boys.

We’ve already heard from the so-called Thinking Housewife on the subject of Sally Ride. Meanwhile, over on The Spearhead, the regulars also have opinions about Ride. Regular commenter Keyster has this to say about Ride’s work in promoting science and technology education for girls:

She was supposed to have inspired a generation of girls to take science and math. While she may have inspired the “Grrl Esteem” movement, very few girls went on to get degrees in math and science as a result of Sally Ride … .

She was frustrated by the fact young girls were very interested in math and science initially, “…but for some reason we lose them around the age of 13.” MMmmm…I wonder why that would be. Because they discovered an interest in boys? Not surprisingly, Sally was able to keep her interest.

That’s right: girls are incapable of thinking about both math and boys. Lesbians are the only women who can sustain an interest in math, because their brains aren’t cluttered with thoughts of Justin Bieber. (Ok, bad example.)

In another comment, Keyster expresses his annoyance at the fact that Ride turned out to be capable of astronautery despite being a woman.

Sally Ride proved that a woman can have “the right stuff”, like Amelia Earheart proved a woman can fly long distances.

OK so now that we know she won’t become hysterical during her period while in outerspace and allow her used tampons to clog the toilet, what do we do with this information? Just because a woman accomplishes something normally associated with men, is this inspiring young girls to spontaneously excel en masse and compete against men in male dominated arenas? Or are women like Sally Ride the exceptions that prove the rule?

You know, “exceptions that prove the rule” aren’t actually a thing. The fact that Ride was a capable astronaut doesn’t actually “prove the rule” that women aren’t capable as astronauts, but instead suggests that this particular rule is not a real rule. You would think that Keyster, as a logical male, would understand this.

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Posted on July 31, 2012, in antifeminism, homophobia, I'm totally being sarcastic, irony alert, misogyny, MRA, the spearhead. Bookmark the permalink. 452 Comments.

  1. Even the definition of the word “beauty” is going to be widely variable among both individuals and society. I’ve met guys who think of “beauty” as being “could take home to meet my mother,” a very separate category from “hotness,” meaning “could take home to my apartment.”

    People might think of beauty in terms of sexual attraction, aristocratic/upper class appearance, or even uniqueness or visual interest.

    This reminds me of a conversation I was having with friends. They didn’t think Anne Hathaway was hot enough to play Catwoman. I thought they were ridiculous. They (these were a straight married couple) told me she had a more classic beauty to her, rather than a sexy look. To look “sexy” a woman must have features like Megan Fox- arched eyebrows, very full lips, pointy nose, etc. I’m just thinking great, now you have to be the right “type” of beautiful/sexy/whatever to be considered attractive enough to score a partner. It’s just ridiculous how we classify looks like that, and IMO I think she did a great job portraying Catwoman’s slinky/sexy persona.

    Also this isn’t the first time I heard this argument. Another woman I know said the same. So its obviously not a case of mansplaining or a certain type of hot only men can see or something.

    I won’t argue that SOME beauty standards are universal. But it’s not a lot. Even if you look at the old master painters…women didn’t look like Anne Hathaway OR Megan Fox. Very round faces and bodies. Childlike features. I’d be a hit back then.

    Speaking of which, while I certainly don’t count myself as very attractive or even above average in appearance, I do fit many of those so called universal beauty standards. Clear skin, shiny hair (when I actually style it) soft features, small chin, somewhat baby faced and younger looking. Also even being chubbier I do have a visible waist and wide “childbearing” hips.

    So evopsych, where the men at huh? or can they see my misandry waves or something…lol

  2. Ick…I really hope that last part didn’t come off as stuck up. I really don’t think I’m that great overall. But if you have certain parts, even if it doesn’t complete the whole package, you should be able to get a chance no? this is why it drives me mad that MRAs think women can just pick out whatever man they want and bam- superhappyrelationshipsexyfuntime.

  3. PS. The Dark Knight Rises soundtrack is chocolate covered bacon for the ears. Hans Zimmer done it again!

  4. “The Dark Knight Rises soundtrack is chocolate covered bacon for the ears”

    So thinking about it makes me wonder why it exists?

  5. Monsieur sans Nom

    To be fair, evolution-wise, the LESS similar a species is, the better. Lots of little differences makes a population less likely to die off in a plague or famine because slight differences can adapt better. Humans mitigate the effects of evolution by adapting outside of genetic changes (ie: wearing a hat instead of evolving a huge head crest over millions of years by selecting for slightly larger foreheads to survive in extreme heat), and we also add all sorts of artificial things to our bodies (piercings, tattoos, even clothing) to change how we appear to others. Plus, artificial qualifiers, such as wealth and status, also influence mating. However, plenty of people who are very “attractive” are evolutionarily “unfit” because many of them have no children or very few children.

    The genetic diversity of the human population does not imply that everyone is equal when it comes to sex appeal. Certain people(with certain traits) will ALWAYS be more attractive than others, while other unfortunate souls will be viewed as “ugly” by most people. As I pointed out in another post, men who are athletically and musically talented are very attractive to women; as are men with good social skills. Ever heard of something called crossover? It is the most important phase of genetic recombination and results in entirely new traits that are distinct from the parent organisms. THAT, is why sexual reproduction produces such genetic diversity(in the human population, among others).

  6. Tangential to the convo with No-Face, but what would the sexuality of a man be who wasn’t particularly aroused by other men, but also wouldn’t mind having sex with them? Does the kinsey scale address that sort of thing?

    I ask out of curiosity, but also because I feel like there is a rather strong distinction between sex (the act) and sexuality. Thus I’d take issue with Sans Nom’s labeling of sex as either gay or straight. I feel like those terms describe people, not acts.

  7. Monsieur sans Nom

    Well kirby, there’s zoophilia(sex with animals), and pedophilia(which really should be in its own category regardless of teh sex of the child). As to your question, I think the answer is bisexual.

  8. Argenti Aertheri

    “As I pointed out in another post, men who are athletically and musically talented…”

    Does that also apply to the geeks playing non-rock-band instruments? I’m truly curious as to when the oboe became sexy.

    “Ever heard of something called crossover?”

    Could you refrain from implying that crossover is the only cause of genetic diversity?

    And can you explain what any of this has to do with whether “attractiveness” is evolutionarily advantageous? Since those “unfortunate souls” who are viewed as “ugly” still mate, generally speaking, it’s rather moot in any evolutionary sense.

  9. … I’m pretty sure that, no matter how you look at it, humans do not follow the laws of natural selection-guided evolution anymore. People who would have died off in the distant past now can lead rich and fufilling lives. And in fact, individuals these days mostly couldn’t survive long without the vast infrastructure and society humans have developed.

    In any case, Nommers, when it comes to beauty, there will be individuals who are always considered more beautiful than others. Only trouble is, those individuals are different for every culture and every time period. I may be completely wrong, but I think that in Japan, androgyny is a highly valued trait, and thin, feminine men are more attractive than muscley ones.

    Don’t know what point your arguing, just thought I should warn you that your premise is wrong.

  10. @Sans Nom:

    Zoophilia and pedophilia are paraphilias, ie mental disorders, while homosexuality and heterosexuality are sexualities. So I don’t know why you’d mention them.

  11. In any case, the reason I think the distinction should be made is that it’s common for homophobes to say that if a man fucks a man, then he is homosexual. And then say that prison rape is gay sex, and therefore gay men are violent and rapey. Yet when you actually talk to the guys who rape others in prison, they still identify as straight. The model that separates the desire from the act accounts for this, while the one that conflates the two doesn’t.

  12. So thinking about it makes me wonder why it exists?

    Because it’s the best thing EVER?!

    Actually I’ve never tried it, but it could work. In theory :P

  13. “I’m truly curious as to when the oboe became sexy.”

    OK, that made me literally LOL. Upon initial exposure to the oboe my first thought was that it sounded like a dying goose.

    “I may be completely wrong, but I think that in Japan, androgyny is a highly valued trait, and thin, feminine men are more attractive than muscley ones.”

    Hmm. Kind of? Depends who you’re asking – attractive to whom? Teenage girls? 40-something women? Conservative housewives or altern-chicks? Like any society, there’s a range of preferences. Also what’s considered “thin” in America (for men) is similar to or fatter than what’s considered “average” in Japan, ime*. What I’d call skinny-buffed (men who are thin, but with visible muscle tone) seems to be as close to universally appealing as it gets in Japan, but even then, there’s no such thing as “universally appealing” in any culture. I know a few Japanese women who love muscly macho looking dudes, a few who’re only attracted to men who could pass for women without much difficulty, and a few who have a strong preference for men who’re little and cute.

    *To give some context, there’s a dude I’ve worked with multiple times who’s very famous in Japan who just about every Japanese woman I know seems to consider to have a great body. He’s 5ft10 and about 130 pounds – thin as a rail, but with visible abs, pecs, etc. Most of the other guys I can think of who occupy that same cultural space of common lust object for women are in a similar height/weight/level of muscularity range, maybe 10-15 pounds heavier at the most. Some are very androgynous, others not at all, but there is a striking similarity in body type.

  14. Figured Om Nom would be one of those people who likes to imply that homosexuality and pedophilia are functionally similar sexualities.

  15. @ Quackers

    Bacon and chocolate are great things that don’t seem like they’d be great together. I’ve had a bacon donut, and I didn’t like it. Salted plus sweet I can go for, like salted caramels, but cured meat + candy just sounds nasty. Get thee behind me, Satan, and take that culinary abomination with you.

  16. PS. The Dark Knight Rises soundtrack is chocolate covered bacon for the ears.

    Now I want to make a product that is chocolate, shaped like bacon.

  17. @Cassandra

    Yeah that’s true, but you never know! sometimes the weirdest things taste good together. I’m so sure I’ve seen chocolate covered bacon before I think on EpicMealTime…

    @2-D Man

    I would eat this! seriously I would :P

  18. Chocolate shaped like a strip of bacon? Sure! Though a tiny little chocolate piggie would be cuter. But then I’d feel bad about eating it.

    (Does anyone else get that with animal-shaped chocolate or cookies? I feel bad about biting off the little heads, feet, etc.)

  19. @Quackers- there’s an ice cream in my town at the local ice cream shop called “The Vegan’s Nightmare.” It involves chocolate covered bacon and caramel ice cream. My husband looooooooves it.

    Hehehe……

  20. @Cassandra- Now you’re making me think of “Cats Don’t Dance…..”

  21. Argenti Aertheri

    “Now I want to make a product that is chocolate, shaped like bacon.”

    That sounds like a sellable product actually, shaped chocolates tend to work, and you’d be capitalizing on the bacon craze without risking “ew gross”

  22. @Nanasha

    That sounds delicious!!! XD

  23. On the whole sweet/salty subject, I have to say, salted caramel macarons? To die for.

  24. http://www.mariniscandies.com/product/BACON-01/ChocolateCoveredBacon.aspx

    Ok, I was wrong, it’s in MAPLE SYRUP ICE CREAM.

    Still…….yummy.

  25. This reminds me of a conversation I was having with friends. They didn’t think Anne Hathaway was hot enough to play Catwoman. I thought they were ridiculous. They (these were a straight married couple) told me she had a more classic beauty to her, rather than a sexy look. To look “sexy” a woman must have features like Megan Fox- arched eyebrows, very full lips, pointy nose, etc. I’m just thinking great, now you have to be the right “type” of beautiful/sexy/whatever to be considered attractive enough to score a partner. It’s just ridiculous how we classify looks like that, and IMO I think she did a great job portraying Catwoman’s slinky/sexy persona.

    Kind of reminds me of the Stormfront-y side of the internet going nuts about Idris Elba playing Heimdall. (Which I finally got around to seeing recently. He was pretty amazing.)

    Bacon and chocolate are great things that don’t seem like they’d be great together. I’ve had a bacon donut, and I didn’t like it. Salted plus sweet I can go for, like salted caramels, but cured meat + candy just sounds nasty. Get thee behind me, Satan, and take that culinary abomination with you.

    I’ve had it. It wasn’t bad, but it wasn’t really good either. It’s actually kind of weird, the flavors don’t really interact at all. There’s just chocolate taste and bacon taste, somehow completely separate.

  26. @Nanasha As a vegan who lives in the UK* and hates sweet food**, I can confirm that is my nightmare, but it’s more due to the latter two reasons than the first.
    (*salt/sweet is just Not A Thing here)
    (**I know, I’m weird)

  27. @PsychoDan

    Ugh…really? sadly doesn’t surprise me though. Have you heard any of those assholes complain about Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury? because Samuel L Jackson is Nick Fury now forever in my eyes!

  28. Ugh…really? sadly doesn’t surprise me though. Have you heard any of those assholes complain about Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury? because Samuel L Jackson is Nick Fury now forever in my eyes!

    And don’t forget all the people who freaked out that Rue is black in the Hunger Games. They supposedly read the book, but when they saw the film…

    I don’t like having to link Jezebel on this, but gotta admit, their coverage was comprehensive:

    http://jezebel.com/5896408/racist-hunger-games-fans-dont-care-how-much-money-the-movie-made

  29. Monsieur sans Nom

    Figured Om Nom would be one of those people who likes to imply that homosexuality and pedophilia are functionally similar sexualities.

    You figured wrong. I stated explicitly that pedophilia is a category all by itself. Please learn to read.

  30. Certain people(with certain traits) will ALWAYS be more attractive than others

    Which is why large women have been the apex of beauty since Reubens discovered the form.

    THAT, is why sexual reproduction produces such genetic diversity(in the human population, among others).

    “Everyone values the same traits, therefore, genetic diversity”

    Methinks you don’t know what at least one of these words means.

  31. As a sideline to the, “innate beauty standard of shape”, I offer the other side of the corset coin.

    Flappers. The ideal was to appear that one had a “boyish/manly” figure. Breast-binding, and loose dresses to hide the hips, over slim legs and delicate ankles; accentuated with heels and straps.

  32. Nomless: What you are talking about is homosexual BEHAVIOR, not homosexuality itself. A person who experiments with gay sex is not automatically gay or bisexual! Do you have any stats about how common this behavior is? It is true, however, that straights will become de facto homosexuals when deprived of any sexual contact from members of the opposite sex. Like prison for example.

    A very convoluted non-Scotsman.

    Shorter: Sexuality is TOTES hardwired, and when it isn’t that’s just people playing silly buggers, or forced to it.

    Rigidity cannot fail, it can only be failed.

  33. And the veiled rape joke… not funny. You could have chosen other milieux e.g. monasteries, sailing ships.

  34. Hey Slavey, have I got a book for you! It gets sex entirely wrong and it doesn’t use any sources since the Second World War, despite being published recently.

    You’d love it, you big prude.

  35. Argenti: Does that also apply to the geeks playing non-rock-band instruments? I’m truly curious as to when the oboe became sexy.

    Are there oboists who have partners? QED it was sexy.

    Same for bagpipes, harmonica (look at all the women who swooned for Woody Guthrie and Bob Dylan), penny whistle, the pedal harp, the oud.

    I know that when I’m noodling on a whistle the women just line up, waiting for my attention.

    Or not.

  36. howardbann1ster

    So, Nommie said he don’t think the human race is redeemable.

    And I am all, ‘hey, some days I get depressed about humans too.’

    Which is actually true. But that is not actually because the human race is objectively bad, it is because I am prone to getting depressed and stuff on account of personal things, and projecting it out at the world. (I am not suggesting the same is true of our friend Nommie… I suspecth his problems are much worse than depression. Like being an asshole.)

    One of the biggest cures is people, actually.

    Go join a volunteer fire department. Like, immediately.

    Yeah, there’s evil in this world. But you show me one Colorado shooter and I’ll show you a hundred thousand men and women putting their lives on the line every night for no reward and damn little recognition. People who will risk their own lives to save others.

    Not just to save folks in your group, or good folks. I’ve seen snarly cynical old men risk their lives to save people they didn’t even like.

    If you really believe the human race isn’t redeemable, then you have to write off the casual heroics of most of it.

    And if you’re enough of an asshole that you can just ignore them… well. Supreme assholery at its finest.

    Will your machine overlords have half that humanity, Nommie? Can they?

  37. Nomless: Certain people(with certain traits) will ALWAYS be more attractive than others,

    This is lacking in content. Define your terms. As it is you have built a tautology (this not new).

    Based on the way the world works… the standard of beauty seems to be: Black hair, dark eyes, non-white skin.

    But… since “beauty” isn’t hardwired, there are places where pale skin with freckles is attractive. Where oddities like red-hair thrive.

    Where slim hipped women get lots of dudes.

    And the male standards, also variable.

    But, when it comes to the dominant look, it’s dark.

  38. I’m surprised nobody has mentioned the word symmetrical in all this.
    I think that humans find beauty in symmetry to be a compelling argument.

  39. Maniacal Goblinoid Nightmare Woman

    New sci-fi hypotheses; you’re not dealing with a transhumanist, you’re dealing with a Vulcan. It’s all that “emotion gets in the way of my purity of thought” doggerel….

    Bad luck Surak fan, “The Singularity” is a long way off.
    Think that because we’ve got electricity licked (sort of…a bit) we can recreate the impulses in brain matter and everything will be okay online?
    No f**cking way. We’re only just noticing the incredibly complex interactions of biochemical hormones and receptors that govern a brain and sadly for you, “emotional” responses are totally a part of that.

    But if you wanna blame something rational, try blaming the invention of agriculture before righting off the species…Go on, look into how it might have effected our ongoing evolution – dare you.
    Errr…why not let Jared Diamond look into it for you for some inspiration first-

    http://www.ditext.com/diamond/mistake.html

    And “Woman’s Intuition” doesn’t exist. What we do have is capacity to observe our surroundings, the interactions of everything within in it and respond accordingly. (It’s a skill that served our ancestors far better than anything the evo-psch goons like to come up with… ).

  40. howardbann1ster

    @MGNW: yeah; calling what women know ‘women’s intuition’ is just more men writing off anything women had to say. But Nommie is happy to piggyback on that fine tradition.

  41. I love Jared Diamond, because now I can quote a respectable scholar who demonstrates the lie that the hunter-gatherer lifestyle was ‘nasty, short and bruttish’ instead of having to quote John Zerzan (who references solid research but has taken them to such far out political conclusions that it discredits the research by association).

  42. howardbann1ster

    Oh, ugh.

    Fannie of fanniesroom.blogspot.com posted a thoughtful examination of the unfair burden MRAs put on feminists to condemn/do the work of deconstructing shows like Snapped!.

    So now some very familiar faces are crawling out of the woodwork to accuse her and all feminists of misandry.

    Here.

  43. Flappers. The ideal was to appear that one had a “boyish/manly” figure. Breast-binding, and loose dresses to hide the hips, over slim legs and delicate ankles; accentuated with heels and straps.

    And we went through another such trend in the 60’s (???) with Twiggy. That seems to fluctuate. There are people who argue that there is some perfect “waist/hip” ratio that stays constant, but otherwise we do have trends in fashion and body types that are certainly not constant. You can find ads from the late 19th century for “fat farms” that were aimed at helping women GAIN weight, because at that time the popular silhouette was the hourglass.

  44. Fannie of fanniesroom.blogspot.com posted a thoughtful examination of the unfair burden MRAs put on feminists to condemn/do the work of deconstructing shows like Snapped!.

    You know why the show Snapped exists? Because female murderers are a minority of murderers, and “man bites dog” is what leads in our media, so this show sensationalizes it. 89% of murders are committed by men. And before any of our resident trolls chime in, I also realize that most murder victims are men. In the majority of cases, men are murdering men.

    http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/homicide/gender.cfm

  45. I disapproved, and I believe Ella did too, but we said nothing.

    Emphasis mine. Ya know what I find creepy? The fact that you continually write “I believe Ella did too” not “and Ella did too” or “and Ella told me she also thought xyz ridiculous thing as well” no, it’s always “and I believe Ella would too” or “I believe Ella did too”.

    This says to me that at the very least, you aren’t actually actively seeking out her opinions on things, you’re just assuming she agrees with you. Which, yeah, is fucking creepy dude. Maybe try talking to her, asking her opinion. My calling you creepy is not a gendered slur, it’s an assessment of what I see to be demonstrated creepy behavior.

  46. I really like chocolate-covered bacon, and I’m craving it now.

    @ostara:

    Emphasis mine. Ya know what I find creepy? The fact that you continually write “I believe Ella did too” not “and Ella did too” or “and Ella told me she also thought xyz ridiculous thing as well” no, it’s always “and I believe Ella would too” or “I believe Ella did too”.

    Yeah, I noticed that too. What, you didn’t bother discussing it with her?

  47. What, you didn’t bother discussing it with her?

    It’s hard to have a conversation with your imaginary friend in public.

  48. Good point about symmetry, indifferentsky. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was universally (or near universally) considered beautiful. Mind you, I haven’t examined a whole lot of cultures to see if this holds true, and I don’t want to fall into the evo psych trap of declaring something is biological when I haven’t done the research.

    Also, I think my eyes kind of glazed over when I read Owly’s last comment, so it could be that I completely misunderstood what he wrote, but did Owly just imply that the desire for money and power weren’t emotions? Because I would have thought that even Owly would understand that greed is an emotion.

  49. ostara321: Now that you mention it, I thought something like that too when he first started talking about her. Though it quickly got buried and forgotten under the apathy I feel every time I see the name “Steele” at the top of a post.

    Makes you wonder, if she exists, how much she’s like him. Like if she’s as much of an asshat as he is, or if she just puts up with his shit, or if she even knows how much of an asshat he is (he may just hide it, or at least try to, off-internet). Sucks to think that the first of those three options is actually, marginally, the “better” one.

  50. @Ostara321: Yep, we hear a lot about what Ella does, as reported by SteeleTroll, and what he BELIEVES she thinks, but nothing about what she might actually say (and no, I’m not saying copy and post directly what she says, but if he insists on dragging her into the discussion SO OFTEN to support him, it might be nice, as you say, to see some “Ella said she agreed with me” or even more amazing, “we discussed it, and she didn’t agree with everything I say” sort of thing).

    I am dubious when Girlfriend being talked about on this blog always agrees with what Troll Dude says/does!

  51. I went to a chocolate festival last February. They were out of chocolate-covered bacon by the time I got there, but the bacon brittle was pretty good.

  52. All this ADULTERATING of chocolate!

    You are CHOCOLATE ADULTERATOR!

    ANTHEMA UPON THE ADULTERATORS!

  53. Or, you know, ANATHEMA!!!

  54. I like the chocolate bon bons with the garlic liquer centers.

    YUM!

    Warning: you WILL feel the blood vessels in your eyeballs dialate AND it probably isn’t nice to kiss Your lover directly after eating one. Especially if you suspect they might be a vampire.

  55. Bacon chocolate bars exist. Ella, not so much.

  56. Yeah, it’s not that I necessarily think she doesn’t exist by default, I mean, there are a lot of couples out there where I figure they’re BOTH so horrible they deserve each other. And there are couples where one person seems really decent and the other person seems like a shitlord and I can’t figure what the non-shitlord sees in the shitlord, but hey, takes all kinds, yanno? What I AM dubious about are Ella’s opinions. Try talking to her about it. You might be surprised to discover that the two of you do not, in fact, actually share a brain, and she is her own person with her own thoughts and feelings, some of which, (SHOCK!) might even differ from yours.

    Though, it would fit if he were making her up altogether as well. But it really doesn’t matter to me. And, in practice it doesn’t really matter either. Without actually trying to get to know the person he thinks he’s dating, he effectively IS making her up, by default of assuming what she thinks and/or feels, rather than asking her. In my experience, that is like 101 of how NOT to date someone, or at the very least, how to ensure a broken heart, but YMMV.

  57. I know Steele’s a prolific liar and all, but I’m willing to grant he has a girlfriend. Plenty of misogynists have girlfriends, after all. I’m not willing to trust that she just agrees with him about everything, though, especially if he never goes to the trouble of asking her.

  58. Ha, ninja’ed super hard.

  59. Yeah, it’s not that I necessarily think she doesn’t exist by default, I mean, there are a lot of couples out there where I figure they’re BOTH so horrible they deserve each other. And there are couples where one person seems really decent and the other person seems like a shitlord and I can’t figure what the non-shitlord sees in the shitlord, but hey, takes all kinds, yanno? What I AM dubious about are Ella’s opinions. Try talking to her about it. You might be surprised to discover that the two of you do not, in fact, actually share a brain, and she is her own person with her own thoughts and feelings, some of which, (SHOCK!) might even differ from yours.

    i basically agree, but on the other hand, mikey has made it clear he handles people disagreeing with him irl about as poorly as he does on here, so this might not be the best path

  60. To check out how beauty standards fluctuate through the centuries, just go to a museum and check out old oil paintings of famous beauties/goddesses. For instance: Sixteenth century: Fairly slim, A-cups, but a visible belly. Seventeenth century: Fat with lots of cellulites, but still small boobs. That’s a pretty radical change over a hundred years only. Then we have the hourglass ideal, the boyish ideal, the Pamela Andersson ideal etc that’s been fluctuating back and forth during the twentieth century.
    Just like somebody else mentioned in this thread one often hears that there’s some waist/hip-ratio that stays constant, but it’s clearly bogus. No way sixteenth century beauties, seventeenth century beauties, Anita Ekberg and Kate Moss were alike on that point.

  61. Insults like “creepy” and “neckbeard”, while they may sometimes have a basis in actual bad behavior, are more commonly employed as groundless pejoratives.

    Compare the costs. If I dismiss a man for being creepy without basis in fact, the worst that can happen is that his feelings will be hurt and his self-esteem will suffer. If I ignore my own sixth sense telling me “this dude is creepy” on the ground that I can’t articulate a factual basis for it, the worst that can happen is that I will end up raped, maimed or dead (or some combination). I’d submit — though I realize some dudely dudes out there disagree — that the latter is much, much worse than the former.

    It is not fair when someone gets called a creep for no reason. It’s also not fair that being raped, seriously injured, or even killed is a significant hazard for women who date or even flirt. It’s not fair — though understandable — that women’s parents, relatives, friends and the general public cultivate an intense fear of potential rapists and murderers in women from a very early age, because as much as you complain about “misandry”, you wouldn’t want YOUR daughter getting into a stranger’s car because that’s fucking dangerous. It’s not fair that most rapists walk away unscathed and therefore have opportunities to rape repeatedly. It’s not fair that the onus for preventing crimes like rape, physical abuse and murder is placed on the potential victims, not on the perpetrators. It’s not fair that when a man does something horrible to a woman, the public’s reaction is to bend over backwards trying to find some reason why she “deserved” it.

    And for all these reasons, do forgive us for the fact that our potential rapist/attacker/murderer – sensing equipment is extremely sensitive, to the point that it gives us false positives. Sorry, but you are not entitled to a legalistic presumption of innocence in ordinary, every-day interaction. I don’t have to have proof of actual bad behavior in order to decide that this particular person looks like trouble, and I better make sure he stays the hell away from me. To me, “creepy” essentially means there is a possibility this guy has a storage locker somewhere full of mummified body parts. A mere possibility, yes, but it’s enough to convince me to reject any contact. As far as I am concerned, my life and limb aren’t worth risking for the sake of maintaining some stranger’s self-esteem.

  62. i basically agree, but on the other hand, mikey has made it clear he handles people disagreeing with him irl about as poorly as he does on here, so this might not be the best path

    Well, yeah. That’s why I’d also be dubious even if his language indicated he’d bothered to ask her opinion once or twice. If you’re the kind of person who throws a hissy fit whenever someone disagrees with you, it’s no surprise if most people seem to agree with you (at least to your face). But yeah, the fact that he doesn’t even seem to bother asking her makes his claims even more ridiculous.

    Not to mention, I wish to hell the “and this lady person agrees!” meme would just die already. If some woman, somewhere thinks your shit idea is just swell, that does not mean all women everywhere agree, or “should” agree or that therefore this “extraordinary woman” is “extraordinary” as demonstrated by her agreement with your shit idea. All it means is that she too, has a shit idea.

    On the chocolate with things you don’t think it belongs with (PG version at least) I’ve never had chocolate bacon, but I’ve been curious to try. I enjoy bacon with maple syrup so I imagine it’s about a 50/50 chance I’d like it. I do know that chocolate covered potato chips are AMAZING and you’ll never convince me otherwise ;)

  63. And for all these reasons, do forgive us for the fact that our potential rapist/attacker/murderer – sensing equipment is extremely sensitive, to the point that it gives us false positives. Sorry, but you are not entitled to a legalistic presumption of innocence in ordinary, every-day interaction. I don’t have to have proof of actual bad behavior in order to decide that this particular person looks like trouble, and I better make sure he stays the hell away from me. To me, “creepy” essentially means there is a possibility this guy has a storage locker somewhere full of mummified body parts. A mere possibility, yes, but it’s enough to convince me to reject any contact. As far as I am concerned, my life and limb aren’t worth risking for the sake of maintaining some stranger’s self-esteem.

    Emphasis mine. WELL SAID. Chocolate covered potato chips for you! (if that’s your thing. If not, I’ll happily provide the digital snack of your choosing).

  64. This study suggests that intuition is reliable for spotting other kinds of criminals, but not rapists;
    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-scientific-fundamentalist/201103/criminals-look-different-noncriminals

  65. Satoshi Kanezawa makes study, rest of world laughs at him again… XD

  66. speaking of poorly executed studies, has tom martin’s video come out yet?

  67. Satoshi Kanazawa didn’t conduct the study.

  68. Sgt Grumbles, if I recall that article, it does delve into some evolutionary reason that women can’t pick out rapists. Am I correct?

    And let’s face it. There are a lot of stereotypes for various criminals (thanks phrenology!) And showing mugshots of convicts, well, those people are already convicted and they have nohing to lose by looking pissed or dropping the mask during the time those photos are taken.

  69. Excuse me? It’s nice to see Boobzland’s damn “armchair psychologists” out in full force. I think that the dinner anecdote was, in fact, the only occasion I have openly speculated on Ella’s thoughts. You’re right, I didn’t ask her opinion, but you know, I didn’t talk about it at all with anyone. I do believe that other times I have mentioned her feelings, I have cited the horse’s mouth (ie, Ella’s mouth).

    In addition, I refer to Ella frequently because she is my best friend and we spend a lot of time together, not to win any particular sort of “credit’ from Boobzland.

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