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MRAs: The men who lost their lives protecting their girlfriends in the Aurora theater shooting were “suckers.”

Over on The Spearhead, the regulars are discussing the three young men who sacrificed their own lives to save their girlfriends in the chaos of the Aurora theater shootings.

Needless to say, many of them aren’t too keen on any act of heroism that might benefit a woman.

Here are the two highest-rated comments in the comment thread. (I have bolded some of the more egregious stuff.)

Young Guy writes:

Sacrifice was once expected of men and women, but it has only been expected of men since the social contract between men and women was torn up by feminists. Most women have been told their entire lives they can have it all, and their happiness is the most important thing in the universe, so most women hate the thought of having to give up anything or putting other people before themselves. Most relationships today are one-sided, so don’t be shocked when men shun marriage or take up pumping and dumping. That might sound harsh to some people, but most women did it to themselves.

Why should I give every ounce of my being for a woman when she is one bad mood away from tossing me onto the scrap heap? I have heard the horror stories from men who worked hard to provide for their families, only for it to mean nothing to their ungrateful ex-wives. I have seen men risk life and limb to protect women they loved, only to have the women in their lives leave them or forget about their sacrifices. It has been said men have obligations while women have options in our modern world, I and agree with that statement. Most women think the world is their oyster, and everyone should cater to them. Most men understand the world is a harsh place, and no one is going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Most women have done an excellent job pissing away all the goodwill men had towards them. I look at women my age, and I realize almost none of them are relationship material. Their entitlement is through the roof. They almost never say “thank you.” They demand chivalry even though they think they should never have to return the favor. They have been told any man who stands up for himself is guilty of abuse. It really is too much to ask of most women to be pleasant, keep the house clean, take care of the kids, and realize a relationship isn’t the Disney fairy-tale which they have been brainwashed with since birth.

Nietzsche (presumably not the ghost of the real Nietzsche) is a bit more concise:

They saved their lives so the girlfriends can be screwing other dudes in several months time…….. probably much less. Heroism is a suckers game.

These two comments each got nearly two dozen upvotes, even though the thread is still young.

Some other highlights of the thread:

Peter South agrees with Nietzsche’s assessment, but expects the girlfriends to move on even more quickly:

These young women will don black for the rest of their lives to mourn and commemorate the passing of these great fallen heroes.

Well ok they’ll be twittering, texting and yakking on their “smart phones” within a week about other guys…

But I think we can all agree that men generally make great meat shields.

Phil, meanwhile, derides the heroes as “suckers.”

Those boyfriends were suckers. These men were living in the past. The boyfriends were living in the 1700′s while modern day American women are living in feminist 2012. Modern day American women don’t live by the old social contract. The problem is men like these three don’t understand. These women will find new boyfriends and move on with their lives. The three men are dead. Gone forever. They died believing is something that doesn’t exist. It is tragic and disgusting.

Eric adds:

the grrlz who survived are probably moving on to the next cock even as we speak. And I’ll bet the types of guys they’re moving on to won’t be the type who’d take a bullet for them either.

Meanwhile, the lowest-rated comment in the thread, with more than two dozen downvotes and only 6 upvotes, is a comment from Georice81 praising the heroes, which starts off with:

The Bible says that there is no Greater Love than when a man gives up his life so that another man may live. I believe in this no matter what anyone may say, MRA or Feminist.

What these men did was heroic and defines what a true man should be. It isn’t a question of being a white knight. It is a question of being a brave man and a true man at that.

I guess the Spearheaders are only fans of traditionalism when it benefits them personally.

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Posted on July 23, 2012, in antifeminism, evil women, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, the spearhead, thug-lovers. Bookmark the permalink. 546 Comments.

  1. Husbands being chauffeurs for their wives can be a negative for the wives, too. Among my mother’s female friends, a lot of them hadn’t driven for years; some had even let their driver’s licenses expire. Then when their husbands died before them, they were left not being able to drive.

    It might sound minor, but when a person has to deal with a spouse’s death, not being used to driving (or having to get a new license) can be extremely isolating.

    In my parents’ case, my mother routinely drove herself to work and to do errands. But once she retired, my father started driving them everywhere, even when my mother preferred driving herself. Part of it was that when my mother’s car died, they didn’t replace it so they only had one car. But my father insisted on driving my mother even to her hair appointment, where he would sit in the car and wait on her. She didn’t understand it, my sisters and I didn’t understand it. Maybe he just wanted to get out of the house, but I’m certain my mother didn’t think it was a positive thing.

    It’s similar to spouses knowing nothing about their financial affairs and then when their spouses die, they’re left helpless. This happened to my brother-in-law when my sister died. He hadn’t written a check in years and so ended up asking his daughter and me to help him deal with his bills, etc.

    (I figure this will be dismissed by the misogynists as, “Poor wives, their husbands die and they have to drive again.”)

  2. These people are monsters. They really are. I can’t get over how cruel they are CONSTANTLY

  3. @Quackers

    i don’t want to spoil it for those who have not seen it but it is nothing short of perfection

    While I adored the movie, I was PISSED THE FUCK OFF that they turned Bane into OMG MUSLIM TERRORIST COMING FROM OMG WORST, BARBARIC ISLAMIC COUNTRY EVERRR. Seriously Nolan, WTF?

  4. As for the OP, they almost managed to clear that ground level bar I have for MRAs.So close.

  5. I keep thinking about all the little ways that my boyfriend and I “protect” and look out for each other (I am female, BTW). I have a bad back, so if we’re out and about, he’ll ask me if I’m in pain and need to rest a minute. He’s a diabetic, so I cook almost all our meals to conform to his dietary needs and pack his lunch every day. We love each other, so we take care of each other. We’re a team. I wish these MRAs would understand that this is the goal of feminism, not to “put women on top,” but to make relationships egalitarian so that nobody’s being dominated or controlled. Feminists have never wanted men to play the white knight–that deprives women of agency.

    What I see here in these MRA writings is a weird combination of resentment at the obligations that the old gender roles put on men (being a “white knight”), plus resentment that they don’t have the privileges afforded to them by those same gender roles (women aren’t submissive) AND resentment that the new gender norms involve certain obligations (if you have sex with a woman and she gets pregnant, you have to pay child support). In their minds, apparently, all this is women’s fault, which shows how little they understand about feminism.

  6. I think the problem here is that these MRAs are projecting big-time. Every time I hear them say “Oh, women are evil bitchez and they will replace their guy as SOON AS POSSIBLE,” all I have to do is take a look at one or two posts they’ve made about how women are/should be replaceable by robots/sex bots, or that you should “trade up” to gain more status as soon as you can, or classifying women by number, etc.

    These guys are insecure because they think that by treating their partners like they are disposable, they themselves are also disposable. It’s like the logical extension of capitalism on social interaction- people are reduced to resources to be used up and discarded by the consumer.

    It seems like a pretty sad and sociopathic way to view human relationships to me, but that’s THEIR problem, not mine.

    I’ll be over here, having a meaningful relationship with my partner and family and friends that’s not based on money and disposability of people. No born human is objectively disposable.

  7. If there’s one thing I know about knights, it’s that they went around being butlers and drivers to any and every woman they could find.

    Chivalry, man.

  8. While I adored the movie, I was PISSED THE FUCK OFF that they turned Bane into OMG MUSLIM TERRORIST COMING FROM OMG WORST, BARBARIC ISLAMIC COUNTRY EVERRR. Seriously Nolan, WTF?

    Seriously?

    Man. Worst spoiler ever.

    I’ll probably love it, though. Just like I loved The Avengers, while I couldn’t help noticing that the bad guys were big meanies who hate our freedom and by the way chose a skyscraper/monument to capitalism in New York City to make their flashy/violent entrance.

  9. Completey off topic…. but: Mmmmmm, Loki ^___^

  10. Tulgey Logger

  11. @Tulgey Logger- I highly recommend that anyone who really wants to learn about chivalry and what it’s all about (largely male posturing using women as objects), should read “Tirant Lo Blanc” which is basically the original manual of what chivalry was supposed to be all about.

    Basically, it’s stupid ass dudes trying to prove how much more manly they are by doing dangerous and horrible things and killing each other and stuff and then claiming women as prizes.

    Chivalry is not a feminist institution, and I wish it would die a quick and final death. Seriously. Respectful consideration for fellow humans is a much better way of behaving than this weird outdated machismo bullshit.

  12. Hanna Rosin? Every feminist I know hates the self righteous….well, I’m trying to be polite but I really can’t. She’s an awful person and repeatedly is in shit for making the most idiotic possible comments about mothers and mothering; especially relating to breastfeeding.

    As for the guy, as far as I’m aware, he’s not getting flack for leaving his girlfriend, but because he took the baby at first, then apparently when the little one wouldn’t stop crying, he put the baby on the floor and legged it. It’s sheer luck the mother found the baby and was able to get him, the little girl and herself out, all after being shot in the leg. Luckily a complete stranger helped her and the kids get to safety.

  13. @Skyal- That guy’s behavior was reprehensible. A crying infant in a loud theater isn’t going to draw fire any more than a screaming person. I hope that he realizes that he deserves all the derision in the world for abandoning a helpless infant like that.

    I’m also hoping that this experience teaches people not to bring infants and small children to MIDNIGHT SHOWINGS of INCREDIBLY VIOLENT MOVIES. It is obviously not the fault of people going to see a movie that they got shot at, but at the same time, if you’re in a movie theater with very non-child-appropriate stuff going on, that is pretty much the best time to get a babysitter or family member to watch your kids. I can’t tell you how many times my husband and I wanted to have a nice evening out, went through all the trouble (and money) of getting a sitter for our daughter so we could go out to dinner and enjoy a movie, and then end up having a newborn infant squalling through the whole film because the sound is so fucking loud that it’s probably hurting the poor kid’s ears. Or the 4 year old who is jumping around on the chairs and crawling under legs and making animal noises- obviously bored out of their minds.

    It’s bad enough that you have to worry about people being shithead morons about bringing their children to non-appropriate movies, but now you have children who have DIED because their parents were too lazy to get someone to watch their kids. I mean, I am all for choosing to let your kids watch whatever you want when you’re in your own home, but in a theater, that shit affects a bunch of other people who are paying assloads of money to see a film.

    And if you can’t find someone to watch your kids? Then don’t go to movies in the theater- wait until it comes out on video- my husband and I know that we have to make sacrifices in our personal lives because we decided to be parents, and if a person isn’t willing to do that- then they probably shouldn’t be parenting in the first place. It’s not the end of the world if you can’t see a big screen movie. Perhaps now people will have more of an incentive to leave the kids at home.

  14. @Shadow

    Did they mention him coming from the middle east specifically? I thought it was an unamed place, then again I was so overcome with fangirlish glee while watching I might have missed the details? Either way of course it had to be somewhere ‘ethnic’ and non western -__-

    you gotta read some of the wackjob reviews from conseratives and libertarians saying this film was against occupy/liberals….don’t want to say much due to spoilers though

  15. CassandraSays

    @ Nanasha

    Yeah, I was going to say, I wish people wouldn’t take little kids to late night movies. I understand that it’s not always possible/affordable to get a babysitter, but in that case maybe the midnight show isn’t the best time to go. Also, consider how the kids will feel about the whole thing – I saw Jurassic Park with some very small children in the theater, and I’m betting there were a whole lot of nightmares featuring marauding T-rexs after that.

    About the person who abandoned his kid, panicking and just running without stopping to grab the kid I can kind of understand, but pausing to put the kid down raises my eyebrows a bit.

  16. CassandraSays

    That being said, I hope “don’t take kids to loud movies” is not the take-away that people have from this incident, because that comes across as pretty insensitive. Hopefully the take-away will be more like “don’t shoot people”.

  17. @CassandraSays- I think that there are a lot of things that people should learn from this situation. I guess the big thing here is that these are people who don’t live with daily violence- they lived in a wealthy suburb, so the violence was more shocking than it might have otherwise been. In my experience, there are plenty of places in the US and other countries, where people are murdered, shot, and are in fear of their lives pretty much all the time.

    I think that’s one of the things that really hit home for me- I really *DO NOT FEEL SAFE* in most public spaces as an adult woman. At first, I thought that this must just be because I live in the town that I do (where there are a lot of really aggressive transients/drug addicts that the city does little to mitigate), but then I started thinking back to my childhood and realized that the majority of the time, I was either at my parent’s house, in school or in a handful of places where I was basically sequestered away from “society at large.” In most public spaces, especially if I am walking alone in the evening, I simply feel unsafe. And as I have said before, that’s the worst part- the uncertainty. I know that I’m not going to get catcalled or groped every single day. But I have that dread in the pit of my stomach knowing that at some point, I *will* encounter someone who will likely do that shit and it’s probably going to come out of nowhere the second I let my guard down.

    Many of these people are going to have PTSD- they won’t be able to go to a movie or hear a gunshot on TV without triggering. But I think that this is also a symptom of a larger disease- there are still SO MANY FUCKING PLACES that are so dangerous that people feel in fear of their lives in the same uncertain way that I do- the idea that you can’t even take a nap in your own home because someone will climb in your window and try and rape you, or you can’t go see a fun movie without some asshole trying to gun you down just makes everyone feel like they are less safe- like the criminals have all the cards and the inmates are running the prison.

    And what do you get for being a law- abiding citizen? You have to lock your doors, buy security systems, drive around in cars with tinted windows (making sure to not buy a car that could be in “gang colors” so it’s not targeted for a drive-by on accident like that poor family that was shot to death at the Oakland Zoo a couple months ago), make sure your kids never go out without a chaperone, always look over your shoulder and carry some sort of weapon or self-defense spray…..

    And you never feel safe, not really.

    That’s really what hurts the most for me. The fear- the knowledge that bad people will probably keep doing bad things, and that innocent people will get hurt simply because the bad people cannot really be stopped and the police are more in the business of cleaning up after the crime has happened than preventing the crime in the first place. :(

  18. There were two kids sitting next to me when I saw it, old enough to be there, but not sure if I personally would take them to DKR. Anyway, at one point the little girl was crying, but so was I. I was both ashamed at the fact, but also felt a moment of solidarity with her….I know that feel kid, I know that feel :p

  19. CassandraSays

    I honestly don’t feel unsafe in most public spaces. Not sure what kind of differences in background and experience go into that, but even walking around the city at night I don’t feel truly unsafe, just sort of…alert? As in, I’m aware that something could happen, but don’t feel like the probability is high, and taking steps to minimize obvious hazards makes me feel safer. Maybe it’s partly that I grew up in a few places that were genuinely unsafe, and then others that were less so, so my brain tends to filter public spaces based on hazard assessment.

  20. That being said, I hope “don’t take kids to loud movies” is not the take-away that people have from this incident, because that comes across as pretty insensitive. Hopefully the take-away will be more like “don’t shoot people”.

    This.

    Also, it’s worth remembering that all kids are different. A couple I know figured out that one of the great ways for them to have a low-cost date night after having a baby was, in fact, to go to late-night movie showings, because for about six months of his infancy, nothing could wake that kid between about 9 PM and about 1 AM. You could practically set your watch by him. Given that he never once woke up during any of the movies they went to see, I think it’d be pretty shitty to begrudge his parents that little pleasure because other babies would have screamed through the movie.

    Similarly, I’m nearly 30 and I still can’t watch scary movies without having nightmares for months, but a friend’s 7-year-old daughter is a huge horror movie fan who shows no signs of being traumatized by all kinds of things that would scare the crap out of me. I’m uncomfortable saying that I know better than my friend what’s best for her daughter when there’s no evidence to suggest her daughter is being harmed by being allowed to watch violent, gory movies. Basically, different kids are different, and while I’d agree that it’s generally true that bringing a small child to a late-night showing of a violent film sounds like a bad idea, I don’t think it’s fair to declare that any parent who does so is a shithead lazy moron who caused their child’s death. That seems, y’know, a wee bit harsh.

  21. CassandraSays

    Yeah, I think that “in general, loud violent movies at midnight might not be the best place for most children” should be a separate conversation from “guy went postal and shot a bunch of people in a movie theater”, because the going postal part has very little to do with the late night movie part.

  22. Ridiculous MRA bullshit, not really worth commenting on — but I will say the Daily News article you posted is some of the worst journalism I have read in awhile.

  23. @Cassandra

    Same here. And its been constantly drilled into my head by my very cautious family that its dangerous out there, and even at my age I’m still reminded to be careful. Women are always warned about this then we are criticized for being too afraid. Damn hypocrites.

    Anyway, I’m just as alert as I can be, especially at night. Fortunate enough to not have been in situations that cause me actual fear in my day to day life, though. There are bonuses to being a taller and bigger woman. Less sexually attractive to the majority, but also less likely to be seen as an easy target. That’s been my experience anyway.

  24. CassandraSays

    @ Quackers

    Even in London I wandered around by myself at night, starting at age 18. I was wandering around Glasgow (much sketchier than most parts of London) after midnight by the time I was 16. The worst things that ever happened were creepy guys trying to chat me up (so, not much different from walking around during the day for a teenage girl), and watching a lot of drunks and junkies stumble around/try to bum change/cigarettes off me. For whatever reason the idea that being a woman and being outside is inherently super hazardous didn’t take with me, no idea why. It’s not that I’m super brave or anything – I’m scared of spider, ffs. It’s just that I saw no reason to assume that walking around at night was any more dangerous statistically for me than for a guy, and I was aware that the rape stats say that I have far more to worry about from people I know than from random strangers on the street, so it never made sense to me to limit my own movements. I am alert at night, far more so than during the day, but that’s pretty much the only concession I’ve made to the woman in public = unsafe idea. I understand why other women feel differently, though, and make different choices.

  25. While i haven’t ever brought an infant or child to a midnight showing, I did bring my 2 and 5 year old to the Avengers, Captain America and others. some infants are good sleepers and are easily unnoticed by others. some kids might seem young but be huge batman fans themselves and parents thought it would be a fun treat for the whole family to experience together. Like new years, it is a special occasion.

    I just don’t like the way the conversation about bringing the kids (like around the little 6 year old girl who was killed) gets framed most the time. I’m sure it will now give parents pause about letting kids see midnight showings, from infant to teens. I’m sure each parent that brought their children for a night of fun already feel like worthless shitty parents and have plenty of guilt.

    Some theaters have policies about kids at movies after 10. I think those are good policies and probably will be adopted at more theaters (like written rules about wearing masks or carrying props).

    I guess I just feel like this is so low on the list of societal issues that contributed to the tragedy that it is not worth talking about. Even on a list of parenting problems it is damn low. I’d say even on a list of inconveniences to the public who go to theaters it is pretty low. Just my 2 cents.

  26. @Personal safety comments: I think that a lot of my increased fears are more to do with the fact that I am pregnant and have a young child (often in tow) when I go out in public. So it means that if someone decides to do something horrible to me, they might hurt my 3 year old or my unborn fetus, and that scares the shit out of me. I definitely feel a lot more fear as a parent than before I had children, but I also think that the drug addict/aggressive street-people problem has gotten a lot worse (and there have been several street-rapes and a stabbing perpetrated by transients near where I live, so that’s scary as hell). I don’t want to carry a gun or other weapon that my child might accidentally discharge, so I just feel kind of like I’m tempting fate if I walk around the block. And sometimes it is safe. But other times, I get chased by scary meth heads. And the 100 times when it is safe starts feeling like it’s just not worth it if I have to worry about 1 time of running from meth heads with weapons.

  27. CassandraSays

    Also, in terms of sexual harrassment and being a woman wandering around at night, I think by the time I was about 17 or so it was like…background noise? By which I mean, I was still alert for anything that seemed out of the ordinary, but in a certain sense it had been so constant for so long that after a while it was like what happens when you live near a train station or an airport, and you start tuning out the noise unless it’s unusual in some way. Or at least that’s what happened for me. Individual incidents are more noticeable now than in my teens, because it’s not as constant.

  28. CassandraSays

    I can definitely see how being responsible for a child would change your sense of risk in all kinds of ways. Also, I’m not sure how far along you are, but pregnancy doesn’t exactly improve one’s mobility after a certain point.

  29. @CassandraSays- I’m about 28 weeks right now, and on my second pregnancy. I’ve been having pretty bad sciatica and leg numbness, as well as all of the tendons in my hips and pelvis relaxing and making my joints feel like they’re popping out of the socket in painful achy ways. Even when I’m not pregnant, I’m a short-stocky legged lady, so I have to walk double-time to keep up with most people, and if given my druthers, I’m definitely a slow walker, which means I’m easy to overtake by most people walking on the street.

    I generally just ride my bicycle around town to keep away from the weirdos, but then there’s the times that I have to stop and lock it up and people are loitering around and I feel unsafe. And having a small child, I can’t exactly put her on my bike because it’s set up as a commute vehicle and there’s no place for a kid seat, so it’s either walking or driving. I really hate driving if I have to do it, but when I feel unsafe, I don’t want to walk either- so I end up just sitting around my living space because I’m scared about the “what if”s.

    Generally, I just try and walk downtown with friends or find someone to go with me, but many of my friends have moved away (mostly to live with parents after graduating from college and being unable to find gainful employment beyond shitty retail that doesn’t pay for the rent), so I have become increasingly isolated and alone. It would be very nice for me to move somewhere “safe” but most “safe” places are also places where you have to drive everywhere, which defeats the purpose of wanting to walk out in safe public spaces. It’s a conundrum for me- I want to be safe, but I feel like I’m either forced to lock myself up in one place, drive somewhere (with the doors locked) and lock myself up in some other place, or I have to brave the uncertainty of the public spaces that are populated by scary people on a regular basis. And there just doesn’t seem to be another option.

  30. CassandraSays

    See, different risk assessments. I actually feel more vulnerable on a bike, because I feel like it makes people more likely to notice me, and I’d prefer to be as invisible as possible to sketchy people. Also I worry that if someone is sketchy and they try to grab at me when I’m on a bike I might be seriously injured, so between that are potential poor visibility I won’t ride my bike at night.

    In terms of “safer” public spaces, where in CA are you? There are tons of places in the Bay Area that are fairly safe (and some that aren’t, of course). There are only a few places in San Francisco where I feel the need to be very alert at night, for example. I definitely felt like walking around LA at night was a bit sketchy depending on neighborhood, though I felt fine in West Hollywood.

  31. @Cassandra

    I had an opposite experience in that my family was/is awesome but was extremely over protective. So that once I grew up and escaped that, I was all no, I’m not going to live in fear like you guys do. I am going to walk at night sometimes and will use the subway because I’m a citizen and its my damn right to do so. The messages I got to take care and be alert are always there and I’m mindful of my surroundings, even when I have earbuds in. But I don’t have that fear that they do.

    I mean, my grandmother didn’t even think it was safe to go see DKR after the shooting, I just rolled my eyes. There’s legitimate fears, and then there’s paranoia.

    Even so, I do understand why other women may feel differently. I can see the difference in the “be careful” messages I constantly get and the ones my brother gets. I get them more often and I’m older for fucks sake. This is why it really angers me when MRA twits accuse women of being misandrists simply because they fear more and try to explain WHY that is. You fucking deal with the message that you’ll be attacked, raped, or god knows what else for daring to exist in public and that you must always be careful, not wear miniskirts, don’t make eye contact or men will get the wrong idea (and yes assholes, some men DO think simply looking at them blankly is an indication of sexual interest so maybe you ought to address them) etc. And the frustrating thing is even though women are statistically more likely to be raped by an acquaintance, women are also more likely to be sexually harassed in public. So the fear is legitimate. I personally don’t feel fear because my experience has been lucky in that I never faced much harassment. However if I did, I probably would feel more fearful or at least edgier in public and especially at night.

    @Nanasha

    Good point. I do think when one becomes a parent the fear is now doubled because you have kids and want them to be safe at all times.

  32. CassandraSays

    @ Quackers

    I suspect that part of my relative lack of fear is that I never got “be careful” messages from my family very much. I mean, I got “pay attention” messages, but not “if you go out alone dire things will happen” messages. My parents seemed to think that I would be OK, so I guess I assumed that they were probably right. And I was getting harassed just as much during the day, so I figured, why did it being night make any difference when I seemed to be just as likely to be pestered at 10 am on the bus?

    I’m weirdly nocturnal, though, so if I’d felt like I couldn’t go out at night that really would have felt like imprisonment, and my tendency to sleep all day was probably a pretty big incentive towards being willing to go out at night.

  33. Yeah, that article by Hanna Rosin was obviously a shameless plug for her book first and foremost.

  34. @Cassandra

    Hmm…that’s interesting, because why haven’t my family’s messages stuck? lol.

    I dunno, back when I was living on campus I’d cut through this forest, many times at night. I was always warned not too, but it was a shortcut and in the freezing cold winter I wasn’t gonna pass it up. Even though I was very alert and had eyes in the back of my head, I didn’t register it as a big threat like my mom did.

    I’m a night owl myself but in certain places, I won’t go out very late though, past midnight in my neighborhood for example. It’s pretty quiet and empty and I find that more threatening that if I was going out for a late night snack in a very busy city. If you get attacked then there are actual witnesses and someone is more likely to call the cops.

    I like to think I have a healthy dose of caution and awareness but not outright fear that my family seems to have. Nanasha made a good point about physical issues though, if you’re not in good health that could make you less likely to escape or protect yourself :( My grandma would certainly be right to be more fearful in public than I would.

  35. CassandraSays

    @ Quackers

    Yeah, I think always having been able bodied and extremely mobile, and being a former sporty person, have both contributed to my relative feeling of safety. Just imagining trying to escape from a bad situation with, say, pregnancy-related hip issues is making me feel much more cautious.

  36. MRAs don’t understand and have probably never experienced romantic love. It’s a tragedy.

    For some reason, this thread, more than most others, has made me really feel sad for the state of some people’s lives.

  37. I think that there are a lot of things that people should learn from this situation. I guess the big thing here is that these are people who don’t live with daily violence- they lived in a wealthy suburb, so the violence was more shocking than it might have otherwise been. In my experience, there are plenty of places in the US and other countries, where people are murdered, shot, and are in fear of their lives pretty much all the time.

    When I visited the US for the first time in the mid-90s, I half expected to be shot at as soon as I stepped off the plane – in Britain, the notion that the US is a violent crime-ridden hellhole is so pervasive that it’s very hard to shake off.

    But I quickly discovered that although my fears were completely absurd (I don’t think I even so much as saw a holstered gun in the entire three months I was there), so too were the parallel fears that my American friends had developed about visiting Europe: they were convinced they’d be targeted by terrorists. In 1995, one of them really wanted to go to Belfast, city of her ancestors, but was too scared of the IRA, so she went to Paris instead.

    Which might sound superficially rational, but…

    1. The chances of the IRA blowing up or otherwise harming an American tourist were as close to nonexistent as makes very little difference – it would have done massive damage to their cause;
    2. In any case, there was a formal ceasefire at the time…
    3. …but there was an Algerian terrorist campaign going on in Paris that was far more random, and which had claimed several lives.

    Granted, her chances of being blown up even in Paris were vanishingly small – but I thought it was interesting that she’d conditioned herself to think that Paris was safe and Belfast wasn’t, when the exact opposite was true.

  38. MRAs don’t understand and have probably never experienced romantic love. It’s a tragedy.

    There’s ample evidence to support this theory already, even if this didn’t clinch it.

    And it’s not just a tragedy for them personally, but it means that rational communication with them is very very difficult because they genuinely believe that relationships are essentially transactional and will inevitably end with betrayal. I also think there’s a fair amount of self-loathing at play here, in that they can’t get their heads around the notion that a woman might actually want to be with them, so assume that she must have an ulterior motive.

    Even their insults are hugely revealing. I can’t begin to tell you what little effect ‘mangina’ has on me – in all seriousness, I’d regard “big stinky poopyhead” as being more effective, because at least it casts aspersions on my personal hygiene. But words like “mangina” reveal one hell of a lot about them and their belief that taking the side of what they regard as “the enemy” is something to be condemned.

    That’s why I felt genuinely sorry for Mister Al – unlike our other older and too-far-gone trolls, he was young and immature enough to convince me that he hadn’t completely swallowed the MRA Kool-Aid and was actually worth saving. And I know I wasn’t alone in this, even though he revealed otherwise. But it was his choice to go down that route: it’s not as if people didn’t patiently explain the consequences in exhaustive detail.

  39. @ Wetherby

    Yeah, I tend to agree.

    What I thought very, very interesting was JtO announcing that he had a girlfriend. I have no evidence about this, but I suspect that the relationship started recently and that, despite his constant repitition about “shaming”, he wants it to be known that he’s in a relationship. Essentially showing her off as an acquisition.

  40. “It’s similar to spouses knowing nothing about their financial affairs and then when their spouses die, they’re left helpless.”

    I actually have a grandmother who didn’t know what a two-pound coin looks like. She’s been confined to a wheelchair for years and is cared for 24/7 by my grandfather – hasn’t handled finances or even basic transactions since forever. Crazy.

  41. “For some reason, this thread, more than most others, has made me really feel sad for the state of some people’s lives.”

    MRAdom is filled with damaged people. It’s one of the reasons I dislike the gallery of pigs here at Manboobs, since it’s basically point-and-laugh, which always makes you the dick, regardless of where you’re pointing and what you’re laughing at.

    The problem is the men are 1. men and 2. often white and hetero, so they don’t fit your officially designated oppressed groups, and thus get little sympathy. Naturally it doesn’t help that they’re mostly pretty unlikeable.

    Of course I know I’m quite dickish, whereas you people seem addicted to moralizing, making you in a strange way even more dickish than me. :)

  42. MRAdom is filled with damaged people. It’s one of the reasons I dislike the gallery of pigs here at Manboobs, since it’s basically point-and-laugh, which always makes you the dick, regardless of where you’re pointing and what you’re laughing at.

    Mockery: It does not work that way. Things that are ridiculous should be ridiculed. Like the notion that men are oppressed.

    The problem is the men are 1. men and 2. often white and hetero, so they don’t fit your officially designated oppressed groups, and thus get little sympathy.

    They aren’t oppressed on grounds of male, white, or hetero. They may be on other grounds.

    Of course I know I’m quite dickish, whereas you people seem addicted to moralizing, making you in a strange way even more dickish than me. :)

    You’re the one trolling a blog, dude, so no XD

  43. *the notion that men are oppressed on grounds of being men, rather. Black dudes are oppressed, but it’s on their blackness, not their dudeness, f’rex.

  44. Rutee, the sad thing is I could’ve wrote your reply for you. Heard it before; don’t care.

  45. MRAdom is filled with damaged people. It’s one of the reasons I dislike the gallery of pigs here at Manboobs, since it’s basically point-and-laugh, which always makes you the dick, regardless of where you’re pointing and what you’re laughing at.

    It’s a lot more complex than “basically point-and-laugh”, as you’d know if you’d read the threads properly.

    The problem is the men are 1. men and 2. often white and hetero, so they don’t fit your officially designated oppressed groups, and thus get little sympathy. Naturally it doesn’t help that they’re mostly pretty unlikeable.

    Few of our trolls are more obviously dislikeable than AntZ, who goes out of his way to insult and belittle anyone who has the temerity to disagree with him, often in advance on the off chance that they might. Yet when he admitted that his decidedly peculiar worldview might have been shaped by serious sexual abuse, the response could hardly have been more sympathetic – we were one hell of a lot nicer towards him than he ever was towards us.

    Same with Mister Al, as mentioned above – when he said anything stupid and immature (which was often), he was of course roundly mocked for it, but when he was more emotionally honest with us he got a much more sympathetic hearing. Example: when he said he was convinced that he was still a virgin because of what he was convinced were hideous physical deformities, but which were actually utterly trivial in the wider scheme of things (average height, a lazy eye).

    I believe they’re both male, white and hetero. As am I, and I’ve never felt the least bit oppressed here, and it’s not as though I slavishly agree with everything that’s being said.

    So remind me what your point was?

  46. I could have written your uncaring dismissal for you. The wheel turns.

    Why do I care about your approval, again?

  47. Rutee, the sad thing is I could’ve wrote your reply for you. Heard it before; don’t care.

    Then why the fuck are you here, you smug asshole?

  48. NWO – you’d have to support that “massive” figure and then the reasons for this (if it is true) before you’ve got an argument of any sort.

  49. NYT had a good short piece on guessing the motives of the shooter btw. MRAs take note of this when you put blame on that one thing you believe was his reason: http://nytimes.com/2012/07/22/opinion/sunday/the-unknown-why-in-the-aurora-killings.xml

  50. Wetherby,

    Being nice and understanding to somebody who’s revealed a life-altering vulnerability to you only means you are not a totally irreemable psychopathic douchebag. Even I don’t sink that low. It also reinforces my view that you have very specific little empathy switches that only get turned on when somebody’s pain is literally staring you full in the face.

    MRAdom is abounding in mental health issues. You don’t need a wall full of certificates to know that. Apparently the progressive way to address this is mockery and leftwing dogma.

    Haha, am I being accused of arrogance by a Manboober? As the feminists say “wow, just wow.”

  51. ShadetheDruid

    Not everyone who’s an arsehole has mental health issues, in fact that’s pretty insulting to people with actual mental health issues who aren’t arseholes.

  52. im sure the mrm is super glad youre here to make dumb, condescending excuses for them dude.

  53. I can promise you that those women most likely wish their boyfriends hadn’t been killed at all. I know I would rather go down together than survive without my love.

  54. Being nice and understanding to somebody who’s revealed a life-altering vulnerability to you only means you are not a totally irreemable psychopathic douchebag. Even I don’t sink that low. It also reinforces my view that you have very specific little empathy switches that only get turned on when somebody’s pain is literally staring you full in the face.

    So if I read your argument correctly, you’re assuming:

    1. That every MRA who posts something stupid and mock-worthy is doing so because they have mental health issues and don’t know any better;
    2. That the MRM is so heavily comprised of people with mental health issues that they need to be treated with kid gloves, lest they get triggered by anything said out of turn;
    3. That because of (2), MRAs can’t be held responsible for their douchebaggery.

    Is that right?

  55. i know it’s not inconceivable that there are two pseudointellectual contrarians on the internet, but can we get a check to make sure rhw isn’t the baby without a name

  56. @Nanasha:

    “It seems like a pretty sad and sociopathic way to view human relationships to me, but that’s THEIR problem, not mine.”

    Amen.

    Every time I read something about how relationships “are” or “are supposed to be” from the MRA camp, I usually end up thinking “or, I could treat my partner like a human being” or “that would be true…if either my partner or I were total asshats.”

  57. Weterby,

    The point that every assholish MRA is a psychiatric case and that every psychiatric case is an asshole is not at all the point I made. Though Shade seems to think so and you seem to think slightly similar to him.

    What I actually said was that MRAdom is abounding in obvious mental health cases, which I stand by. How you can turn that into “every assholish MRA must be a mental health case” is probably due to willful misreading on your part to turn my point into something you can refute.

    Some of them quite clearly are mentally ill, given the dysfunctional views they have on things and the occasional comments they make about their lives, I also said that setting up a site for mockery which will include such people in its catch-net, precisely because they are mentally ill and acting out, is probably not the most noble thing to do.

    2. That the MRM is so heavily comprised of people with mental health issues that they need to be treated with kid gloves, lest they get triggered by anything said out of turn;
    3. That because of (2), MRAs can’t be held responsible for their douchebaggery.

    Nope and nope. Not kid gloves, just avoidance of antagonistic ridicule. Can you spot the middle ground between kid gloves and antagonistic ridicule? It’s there, believe me, it exists!

    Last point: No, people are responsible for what they do; how you decide to hold them responsible is up to you. Though I imagine a site for ridicule serves your own psychological needs more than it forces any kind of responsibility on your targets.

  58. RHW, but I will bet you anything you think that Feminist are just the picture of mental health.

  59. Can you spot the middle ground between kid gloves and antagonistic ridicule? It’s there, believe me, it exists!

    Indeed it does, and the commentariat at this blog is living proof – consistently, we do a far, far better job of occupying that middle ground than any MRA site that you care to name. I’ve already cited examples, and there are plenty more – hell, even NWOSlave has been given a sympathetic hearing on occasion.

    No, people are responsible for what they do; how you decide to hold them responsible is up to you. Though I imagine a site for ridicule serves your own psychological needs more than it forces any kind of responsibility on your targets.

    It doesn’t serve any psychological need at all: as with any other blog that I appreciate, I enjoy David’s posts and I like virtually hanging out with the vast majority of the regulars who post here. But if Manboobz were to disappear overnight, I suspect I’d cope just fine.

  60. Last point: No, people are responsible for what they do; how you decide to hold them responsible is up to you. Though I imagine a site for ridicule serves your own psychological needs more than it forces any kind of responsibility on your targets.

    Oh noes! Won’t somebody please think of the hateful bigots?

    It’s impossible to “force responsibility” on anyone by any means. People either take responsibility or they don’t. Obviously, people who think that half the human race have too many rights are part of the latter. There’s nothing to be done about this, at least on the internet. The Revolution Will Not Be Televised wasn’t just about television, or just about racism.

    Mocking hate sites is fun. Call that a psychological need if you want.

  61. @Tulgey

    No worries, it’s a meaningless spoiler and is irrelevant to the story loll. And dude, you will love the movie, I’m prolly gonna go catch it again on Thursday. Pay no attention to Flava Flav, the hype is real :D

    @Quackers

    They don’t name a country so not Middle Eastern specifically, but definitely Islamic. The landscape is meant to evoke Middle Eastern or North African though.

    RE: the safety issue. I don’t know if other POC posters here feel the same but, everytime I move to a more affluent area I feel just a little less safe because Goddamn with the police harassment!!! And, for some reason, I went through practically nothing for the first six years of my life in Canada, to like once or twice a month the last 4 years (which is still less than a lot of black and hispanic people so, you know, don’t want to whine too much). I think i wouldn’t mind it so much if it didn’t almost exclusively happen within like a 4 block radius. I desire more conversational options than “What are you doing here?” “I live here” 8-)

  62. “Indeed it does, and the commentariat at this blog is living proof – consistently, we do a far, far better job of occupying that middle ground than any MRA site that you care to name. I’ve already cited examples, and there are plenty more – hell, even NWOSlave has been given a sympathetic hearing on occasion.”

    So you’re happy measure your conduct according to how it compares to MRAs – a standard you yourself would regard as bottom of the barrel. Psychological “need”, psychological “desire”, whatever. Can you ever resist the nitpick?

    Ugh,

    “hateful bigots” indeed. Haha. As far as responsibility goes I think it seems like you should probably take that point up with Wetherby rather than me. Anyway, I’m pretty much done.

  63. I think part of why I am fearful of things like walking alone at night is because I know, I’d anything did happen, it would be automatically considered my fault.

    Embarrassing story time! When my bf and I had our first date, we’d already seen each other around the office for a couple months and had been talking/flirting for maybe half that time. We’d gone to the same party the night before and spent the whole night talking. I’d learned a lot about him, and told him a lot about me. I felt quite comfortable and safe around him — which was damned important to me, given the last relationship I’d been in. I’d actually figured I wouldn’t feel safe enough to date someone for at least a year after that, he really surprised me. Anyway, I digress.

    We’d already arranged a date for the day after, but out of the blue at about 2:00 he asked me, did I want to come over tonight to watch a movie? At his home, where he lived alone? At 9:00*?

    So, risk assessment time. Did I think he would hurt me? No. I thought he was feeling the same way I was, which is to say, really excited and eager to go out together. But what if he actually did assault me? I’d be held responsible by pretty much everyone. What, you went to a man’s house at night and you’re surprised this happened? What did you think that invitation was for? You probably wanted it, and now you feel embarrassed and are trying to blame him so you don’t have to feel like such a slut. Can’t think of many people who would condemn him for assaulting me, not after I foolishly put myself in a position where it would be easy for him to do so.

    I decided to go anyway. We had a really nice time. But I’ve told almost nobody since, as there’s a good chance they’d give me a tongue lashing full of analogies about leaving your valuables out and whatever-the-fuck else. I also explained later to my new bf that late-night invitations to your home aren’t really fair to make, even if you have a good rapport with a woman, because she’s going to be faced with this risk assessment and the knowledge that she would be blamed if anything happened. He was totally surprised — and instantly ashamed — that I’d thought there was any risk at all. Ah, the cluelessness of privilege.

    tl;dr: Sometimes I don’t want to do things that are considered risky for women, even if I don’t actually feel very threatened, because in the unlikely event something does happen I will be blamed for it.

    *I will note that it’s still light out at 9:00 during the Calgary summer, but still.

  64. @RHW

    Read the title of the article you’re posting on and get back to me on whether or not hate and bigotry are being expressed. Only compassionate, equitable people criticize victims of attempted murder immediately after horrific tragedies for their supposed future love lives, right? Or murder victims for not getting sex out of their own murders?

    Wetherby’s fine in my book. Most people are. It’s actually really easy to meet the minimimum basic standards of human decency, which is why its all the more hilarious how many MRAs can’t do it.

  65. So you’re happy measure your conduct according to how it compares to MRAs – a standard you yourself would regard as bottom of the barrel.

    Can you ever resist the nitpick?

    Oh the irony.

  66. “The Cluelessness of Privilge ” ????? Are you kiddding me ? I am a gay man that travels for my law firm all over the nation and stay sometimes at gay resorts and my lectures may be late and night and if a big drunk man hits on me in an eleavator or in a hall way am I supposed to be offended or does he have prvilege and I do not ? Please explain my male privilege at that due moment in time ,or his .

  67. Wil, in some instances you will have privilege due to being male. However, being gay means that there are many instances where you are at risk, where you would have to do the same risk assesments a woman would for the potential of facing physical harm. Particularly if you are known or suspected to be gay.

    So, no privilege in terms of the scenario you outlined.

  68. Key phrases: “These young women will…” “…in several months time…” “Well ok they’ll be…” “…are probably…” “These women will…”

    There’s a lot of precognition going around in MRA circles.

  69. Mental health concerns — especially mental health concerns you’ve decided someone has because you’ve read their words on the Internet, that may or may not actually exist — do not exempt people from criticism. Mentally ill =/= so totally without agency that we’ll just believe any damn thing and can’t be held responsible for it, you condescending jackass. I surely hope that if I start spouting bigoted trash, y’all here will call me on it hard, not tut tut to one another about how it’s sad, the poor thing, she always was sick. Don’t make fun of her hurtful ideas, she has difficulties.

    Fuck you fuck you fuck you fuck you.

  70. Can you tell me my prvilege ? I am lacking 1700 state and federal rights and am the most beatn, killed and discriminated America according to The Southern Poverty Law Center, uh, your the one that has the privilege, I think you need to rethink that one. The diffenrce betwenn people like me and feminist I don’t whine.

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