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Tom Martin, leading UK Men’s Rights Activist: “Pedophiles who pay children for sex are not really rapists, because the child … understand[s] the nature of the contract.”

Tom Martin, child rape apologist

[TRIGGER WARNING: Discussion of child rape]

Tom Martin is one of the most prominent Men’s Rights Activists in the UK. He’s best known for a failed lawsuit he launched against the London School of Economics, charging the school’s gender studies program with, you guessed it, misandry. The case was thrown out of court this March, and Martin celebrated his defeat by calling a lot of people whores on Twitter and, I am proud to say, in the comments here at Man Boobz.

While Martin, known perhaps ironically as @sexismbusters on Twitter, is clearly more famous in the UK than he is here in the states, this peculiar crusader against what he sees as sexism has been celebrated (and his defeat in court mourned) by numerous Men’s Rights sites on this side of the pond. He’s been discussed many times on the Men’s Rights subreddit, where one supporter declared:

And he’s gotten write-ups on an assortment of other MR sites from The Spearhead to MensActivism.org to one Man Boobz favorite, the now-defunct What Men Are Saying About Women. On the website of the National Coalition for Men, one enthusiastic commenter gushed:

Finaly a real man with balls !!! Not like the rest of us . Tom is my hero .

But the Men’s Rights site that has given Martin the most support has been A Voice for Men, which featured Martin on one of its “radio” shows, reposted an article on Martin’s crusade from his website that seems to have been written by Martin himself (in the third person), offered updates on his lawsuit, and even publicized a recent public debate of his in England. The site has also encouraged people to donate to Martin’s legal fund.

One wonders what these supporters will make of some of the strange and awful things Martin has been saying in the comments here on Man Boobz in recent days. (There is no question that it is really him; he confirmed his identity earlier by emailing me from the account associated with his website Sexismbusters.org, and anyone skeptical of any of this is invited to contact him directly through his website.)

Most of the comments he posted here during his first commenting binge were rather risibly misogynist, frequently punctuated with his favorite epithet “whore,” a designation he feels is an appropriate one for 97% of all women and (he had recently added) for 98% of Man Boobzers of either gender. You can see here or here for numerous examples of Martin’s wit and wisdom – including his argument that hard chairs are discriminatory towards men and his now famous declaration that “female penguins are whores.”

His more recent comments, though, haven’t been funny in the slightest. Martin’s new obsession? Child prostitutes – and why they aren’t victims so much as victimizers, willing participants in an activity that makes them big money. Let me put another TRIGGER WARNING here. This is some of the most repellant material I have ever featured on man Boobz.

Here’s Martin’s opening statement on the subject:

The latest establishment scam in the UK, is to describe child prostitutes as “vulnerable children groomed for sexual exploitation”, then talk about them being “passed around” etc, without mention of the fact that these young people agreed to be whores, and are getting paid for it.

In a followup, he elaborated on this logic:

“Yeah, she offered me a job as a prostitute abroad, which would involve me receiving lots of money for taking cock, so I accepted, became a prostitute, and therefor, according to the official fem definition, this makes me a sex slave”.

Grow up!

Even a 10 year old knows, if someone is paying you for sex, that makes you a whore.

And when he talks about ten year olds here, he means this literally; in his mind, trafficked ten year old children aren’t really victims, but economic actors making an economic choice:

I stand by my statement, that child prostitutes know what they are doing, and therefore deserve to be called prostitutes, not victims.

A progressive European country (either Holland or one of the Scandinavian countries, I remember hearing), introduced in the late 90s, the legal principle of no arbitrary minimum age for consent, rather, the legal requirement to ascertain whether lawful sex had taken place was to establish whether the child or young person ‘understands the meaning of consent’ …

Now, if a ten year old is for instance [specific sexual act redacted] for money up front, then there is very much less question whether that whore understands the meaning of consent or not.

In another comment, Martin suggests that ten-year-olds who have been the victims of what some people insist on calling “real rape” would be offended by anyone thinking that ten-year-old prostitutes suffer from rape – when, after all, the child prostitutes have “agreed” to it.

From the perspective of a child who has actually been raped by an adult, how must it seem, to hear the victim-feminist establishment conflate child rape with child prostitution? The raped child remembers having no choice about participating in the sexual activity, of being forced, and then is asked to consider his or her fate or level of agency as similar or the same as that of a child who marketed them self for sex to an adult, took payment, then performed the act.

I don’t think the average 10 year old genuine rape victim would buy the manboobz style analysis that all child prostitution is rape … .

Questions of genuine agency are complicated, but not complicated enough to pass a 10 year old genuine rape victim’s bullshitometer I posit.

Oh, Martin doesn’t actually think ten year olds should be prostitutes. He thinks they should wait a few years, until they’re at least 14.

Should child prostitution from the ages of 13 up be legal?

Nope. I think that prostitution is a potentially dangerous profession for which a basic qualification in health and safety be required, like an NVQ – and that kind of course would not be attainable until after the minimum of secondary school years are completed, so aged 14, 15, 16, 17 or even 18 or more depending on the country.

The real problem, in his mind, is that young girls try to enter into the business when they should be in school:

States with child prostitution problems should be forced to get these children back into schools to complete their education, and child prostitutes who persist should be treated as school truants, a misdemeanor, and given the carrot and stick approach to get them back on the straight and narrow or go to young offenders institutions. If they want to be prostitutes when they’re old enough, then they can go to the careers advise officer, where the pros and cons of the profession can be laid out, and an application for the training course and license can be given.

Martin mocks the very notion that child prostitutes are being exploited:

Imagine you caught your underage 15 year old daughter on the game, what would you say to her?

“Okay darling, obviously you played no part whatsoever in choosing to be a prostitute yourself, so mummy’s going to help catch the nasty pimp who put you up to this, because what you need to learn is when 15 year old girls accidentally suck cocks for money, they should be compensated, with a bit of victims of crime compensation, and, not forgetting, the original £12 cock-sucking bonanza from the punter. That’s right sweety. Double bubble time. Pass me the phone. Now how does this thing work?”

Or… would you ground the whore for 6 months until she passes all her GCSEs?

Well, given that approximately 98% of manboobzers are whores themselves, I’m guessing you’re probably going to want to blame it all on MRAs.

So prostitution should be legal. But since prostitutes are very bad, they should pay high taxes for the privilege of plying their trade, to keep them poor and in order to repay society for the damage they do:

Prostitutes need to be taxed and licensed so heavily, rendering the profession a relatively poor way of making money.

Anyone who practices as a prostitute without the necessary qualification and license, can go to young offenders institute/jail – just like any other persistent illegal unlicensed trader would.

Anyone working on the sly as an escort, should be hunted down by the taxwoman, and if caught, given a huge bill for tax evasion, as well as a fine, and prison for not having a license. Unlicensed tax-evading prostitutes should be hunted down (which would be easy enough).

Anyone choosing prostitution should pay the highest taxes, and know why those taxes are so high – because of the damage prostitution does to the prostitutes and their customers and their environment and the society.

In a followup comment, Martin sees a silver lining in the form of all the tax revenues that prostitution will bring in:

If licensed hookers pay for a massive license fee and heavy taxes, then some of that money can be ring-fenced to research how best to get women (and girls) to renounce prostitution in all its forms, because let’s face it, a lot of housewhores and princess wannabes could do with a little economic activity-inducing work ethic therapy themselves.

Meanwhile, the customers of underage prostitutes – in other words, the child rapists – should be treated gingerly:

[M]en who pay money to have sex with child prostitutes should not be criminalized – but taken out of circulation and treated compassionately for their condition. I’ve heard that most criminal activity peaks with testosterone levels, in the late teens, but paedophillia is the only crime that increases in frequency as these men get older, indicating a growing pathology for them rather than just a typical immature criminal act.

He offers this final summing up of his twisted argument:

[P]edophiles who pay children for sex are not really rapists, because the child consents, then performs the act, indicating they understand the nature of the contract. The elder is still a pedophiles, but the child prostitute is still a prostitute.

If the child is enslaved – it’s rape, or too young or stupid to know what he or she’s doing – rape. But poor, and in need of food? Not rape. A choice. Unwilling to do other hard labour paying 9 times less than the prostitution route? Not rape. A choice.

He then extends his argument to the rest of the alleged 97% of women who, in his mind, are whores:

Whatever your age, follow the golden rule, of never taking money for sex, then prostitution will be eradicated. Only the prostitute can stop charging for sex.

And of course, that means rejecting courtship gifts, engagement gifts, marriage gifts, divorce gifts, and government largess also.

I don’t think many of you are ready to renounce prostitution in all its forms. …

I know a whore when I see one.

He even returns momentarily to his earlier assertion that female penguins are whores:

Someone or other here said I was anthropomorphising human behaviour onto penguin behaviour by calling penguins whores or something.

But the point is, being a whore, is an animalistic trait, that human females should not need to resort to, given they’re at the top of the fucking food chain already. Google “nuptial gifts” and you can read studies about various animals granting sex to those males who provide the most food, or even the most glittery non-edible trinkets etc, or in the case of penguins, rocks to build nests and shelter with.

I’m saying women are better than penguins, or at least would be if they renounced prostitution in all its forms.

I’m sure the women of the world will be happy to hear that Mr. Martin thinks they are potentially better than penguins.

I doubt many of Mr. Martin’s American supporters are familiar with his elaborate apologia for child rape. I would like to invite Man Boobz readers to show this post, or at least some of the more repellant quotations from it, to the proprietors of the various MRA blogs and MRA forums I have mentioned above.

I wonder if any of his supporters will be willing to renounce him publicly once they know what he has said here – and apparently in some recent public debates as well. Surely no legitimate “human rights movement” would want to be associated with anyone who spouts filth like this.

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Posted on July 13, 2012, in $MONEY$, a voice for men, antifeminism, creepy, evil women, men who should not ever be with women ever, misandry, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles, rape, rapey, reddit, the spearhead, Tom Martin, whores. Bookmark the permalink. 805 Comments.

  1. The First Joe

    @Argenti – I’m not going to get sidetracked into what is or isn’t the currently politically correct term for “X” or what I think of PC, except to say:

    I’m old enough to remember that when I was a kid they had recently changed the term “cripple” to “spastic” and when cruel little kids took that up as a taunt they changed it again.. and again… Likewise “idiot” became “retarded / remedial” and the kids at school started calling each other REMMIE!! so they changed it again and again…
    And after all that- in the UK “special”* can now be used as an insult….

    PC keeps running away, cruel humans keep up effortlessly.

    (*Derived from “special needs”)

  2. p.s. argenti, thanks, i’ll need to practise that tag to get it locked in to my brain

  3. Argenti Aertheri

    “If I tried to come up with a reductio ad absurdam argument to discredit the implications of libertarianism, I could not fake a worse argument than Tom Martin’s.”

    I keep thinking he’s a Poe, and then remembering the lawsuit and 37,000 pound bill.

    Tom, seriously man, wtf is so terrible about (adult) sex workers?

  4. PC keeps running away, cruel humans keep up effortlessly.

    That doesn’t mean we have to go out of our way to be cruel once we’re told that something is hurtful.

  5. If I tried to come up with a reductio ad absurdam argument to discredit the implications of libertarianism, I could not fake a worse argument than Tom Martin’s.

    I dunno if he’s exactly libertarian? Because libertarians are generally cool with sex work as part of the free market. He’s more just a reductio ad absurdum of context-free whorephobia.

  6. Argenti Aertheri

    BigMomma — no problem on the html

    The First Joe — you know it’s used as an insult and use it anyways? I guess there’s no point debating it then. (I will point out that letting language fall to the assholes of society is suck-tastic though — cruel people will just use the new term is basically saying “fuck it, let the bullies be bullies, it isn’t worth fighting them”)

  7. If child soldiers are forced into it, then it’s slavery. Even if they are volunteering for a paid wage, it should still be illegal to miss your minimum of schooling, and therefore illegal.

    Pedophiles should be removed from society and given compassionate treatment for their illness.

    Child prostitutes should be put back in school, or if repeat offenders, prosecuted for attempting to profit by preying on the mentally ill pedo population.

    Pedos have an incentive not to re-offend – to keep their liberty, and avoid a secure treatment unit.

    Child prostitutes should face a choice between their freedom (apart from when at school), or, if they continue avoiding school to go whoring, then incarceration and school.

    The imprisonment of child prostitutes happens in countries where the state does not have the resources to make the incarceration an effective exercise in rehabilitation, but Western countries have those resources to make it work.

    Also, if someone reaches the necessary minimum age to get a license to pass the exam and pay the fee and become a tax paying prostitute, that’s fine, but the general public who might be thinking about marrying for instance should have a right to know if that woman or man is a professional sex worker – no secretly being a whore. There needs to be a registar of prostitutes, so people can check their new date isn’t whoring for money, and creating all that extra emotional and health risk for the wellbeing of the relationship and any offspring.

    If people think whoring is so fucking great, then they should have to declare themselves a whore.

  8. I dunno if he’s exactly libertarian? Because libertarians are generally cool with sex work as part of the free market. He’s more just a reductio ad absurdum of context-free whorephobia.

    The idea that all economic interaction should give value for value received otherwise you’re a leech kinda smells libertarian to me, but I really don’t know. I mean, any germ of a coherent idea is immediately smothered under a thick coating of PUNISH THE FILTHY SLUTS WHOM I NEVERTHELESS DESIRE OH GOD MAKE IT STOP, so “thinking” is probably not the word we should use for what’s going on here.

  9. Honestly, I am shocked that an MRA even showed up to object to Tom’s child rape advocacy.

  10. Child prostitutes should be put back in school, or if repeat offenders, prosecuted for attempting to profit by preying on the mentally ill pedo population.

    Children should be prosecuted for preying on pedophiles???

    You CANNOT be a real person who breathes the same oxygen as human beings. I will not believe this.

  11. Also, if someone reaches the necessary minimum age to get a license to pass the exam and pay the fee and become a tax paying prostitute, that’s fine, but the general public who might be thinking about marrying for instance should have a right to know if that woman or man is a professional sex worker – no secretly being a whore. There needs to be a registar of prostitutes, so people can check their new date isn’t whoring for money, and creating all that extra emotional and health risk for the wellbeing of the relationship and any offspring..

    Why is non-coerced, adult prostitution bad? Why do we need to shame sex workers? What detrimental effects does sex work have on the offspring of the sex worker? And why do you claim to care about the children only here, and not where you’re OK with child rape?

  12. You CANNOT be a real person who breathes the same oxygen as human beings. I will not believe this.

    @cliff, that’s where i am at with this dude too.

  13. The First Joe

    @Argenti – I would hope that reading it in context of my post, my attitude would be protective towards the hypothetical man with learning difficulties* being ripped off in my hypothetical example. Feel free to mentally back-edit that term in there.

    *this is the currently PC term in the UK.

    My argument that changing the term, rather than reclaiming the word itself is not actually fighting, but running away from the problem (which is that cruel people are endlessly inventive in their cruelty, often when they fail to be inventive in anything else).

    I know that almost everyone disagrees with me on this, and frankly, it’s not an argument I can be arsed to explore further right now (tired). I generally use “learning difficulties” in most conversation now anyway…

  14. Cliff, here’s a post by a woman whose libertarian father tried to have her emancipated when she was a child so she could work for him and pay rent to live at his house. It’s not as extreme, but it definitely has the same flavor: all human interactions reduced to economics, it’s all context-free.

    (And any demands on the man by a woman or girl are immediately ZOMG THE WORST THING EVER, but misogyny isn’t inherent to the libertarian ideology, so it may just be coincidental that both this chick’s dad and Tom Martin hate women.)

  15. I know that there are people with misguided morals. I can believe that there are people out there with no morals.

    But I’m having trouble with a guy who appears to have opposite morals. Punishing children for preying on pedophiles… Christ almighty, how does a human mind even get there?

  16. themisanthropicmuse

    @Cliff Pervocracy:

    “You CANNOT be a real person who breathes the same oxygen as human beings. I will not believe this.”

    Unbalanced individuals are willing to say or do just about anything for attention. It’s all just a baiting tactic to keep people enraged and engaged.

  17. I do think there are people who are just plain old evil, not mentally unbalanced, not mistaken, not misguided, just plain old evil.

  18. captainbathrobe

    Cliff, here’s a post by a woman whose libertarian father tried to have her emancipated when she was a child so she could work for him and pay rent to live at his house. It’s not as extreme, but it definitely has the same flavor: all human interactions reduced to economics, it’s all context-free.

    Wow. Ron Swanson lives?

  19. The First Joe

    @Bostonian – and I’m a libertarian too. So I disagree with Tom twice on principle alone, that’s not even getting into how I feel about his BS.

    @Cliff – yeah, WTFF!!??.

    @Tom – “children ‘preying’ on pedos???” Fuuuuuucccckkk offf!! You fucking bellend!

  20. The First Joe

    A central plank of Libertarianism = the fair contract.
    You can’t have a fair contract with an incompetent party. Not possible.
    Any such contract would be invalid, and the excercise of the advantage thereof = criminal e.g. theft, rape, slavery etc.

    So e.g. the rent-seeking Dad (assuming the daughter was under the age of majority = incompetent to contract as an adult) is not a Libertarian, but a bullshitter. As well as being a shitty Dad.

  21. So if you take money for doing something, you’re a whore, according to Tom Martin.

    Which seems to mean that unless you’re a deadbeat bum with your hand out getting money for doing nothing whatsoever, you must be some sort of prostitute.

    Nothing against the bum lifestyle, but you know what? Fuck that shit.

    *YOU* go be a bum with your hand out and see how far that gets you.

    I’m going to work my job, take care of my family, and do good for my community.

    You, on the other hand, seem to be advocating for a world in which you are entitled to everyone else’s money, bodily integrity, and stuff simply because you are the almighty Tom and you have obviously gotten it into your thick head that you can say and do anything and it’s magical messiah-speak.

    If you don’t want to pay for sex, maybe you should stop being a repugnant being who no one would willingly place their genitals near for fear of catching your shitty personality.

    And yeah, it is illogical to say that people who do not agree with you are just as bad as the people you’re demonizing.

    And yeah, guess what? Being exploited for money is still exploitation. A child’s cerebral cortex (the rational, adult part of the brain) does not fully develop until around 24 years of age. In prepubescence it is barely developed at all. A child cannot legally consent because a child’s brain is PHYSICALLY INCAPABLE of rationally and mentally processing the full meaning of consent.

    And animals are whores? Nope. Economic systems are a uniquely human thing. Animals are animals and have very under-developed brains except for a few species, and even they are unable to reach the cognition of anything higher than a 5 or 6 year old child.

    ERGO, children and animals cannot consent. ERGO, if you’re sexually exploiting a child or an animal, YOU are the person who is evil and should be heartily punished for your exploitation, NOT the child or animal.

    You are submitting these weak-ass ideas in the hopes that people will give you money. Sorry to ruin the party, but that makes YOU a whore too by your own definition.

    You’re just really terrible at it.

    Stop whining and either get better or move to that deserted island you seem to love talking about so much.

  22. The First Joe

    Right, I’m off, tired and hungry now – dinner has become absurdly late supper.
    I’ve said my piece, and there’s my marker: Men’s Righter telling Tom Martin he’s full of shit.

    G’night.

  23. themisanthropicmuse

    @Bostonian: “I do think there are people who are just plain old evil, not mentally unbalanced, not mistaken, not misguided, just plain old evil.”

    I think what we used to consider plain old evil back before we had any idea about the human mind, would probably fall under a psychopath or sociopath label these days. I agree that some people are evil, putrid, loathsome monsters. I hate that we are all forced to share a planet and it’s resources with such individuals.

  24. Argenti Aertheri

    The First Joe — we appear to have been talking past each other then. It’s up to the group it’s a slur against (in all cases) to decide whether to reclaim it or not, but I get the point you’re going for there.

    Cliff — “But I’m having trouble with a guy who appears to have opposite morals. Punishing children for preying on pedophiles… Christ almighty, how does a human mind even get there?” — narcissism + pedo = my ex, and how you get there (idfk in Tom’s case)

    Also, 14 year old girls are able to consent? Wtf is with these MRAs and 14?! That’s NWO’s “golden age” too isn’t it?

  25. Child prostitutes should be put back in school, or if repeat offenders, prosecuted for attempting to profit by preying on the mentally ill pedo population.

    David, I think it may be worth adding some updates to the post so that people don’t have to wade through the comments to see how Tom is doubling down on this.

    Why, some of the “child prostitutes” he quotes as being so in love with the work started when they were seven fucking years old.

  26. So e.g. the rent-seeking Dad (assuming the daughter was under the age of majority = incompetent to contract as an adult) is not a Libertarian, but a bullshitter.

    No True Libertarian. Really.

    But no, that’s what emancipation as an adult means; that she is considered, legally, as competent to contract as an adult. Because she is an adult, even if she is beneath the age of majority. But try again, I’m sure you have a good reason this doesn’t count even though you were full of shit the first time.

    I’ve said my piece, and there’s my marker: Men’s Righter telling Tom Martin he’s full of shit.

    What is it with idiots thinking telling us this redeems MRAs?

  27. A central plank of Libertarianism = the fair contract.
    You can’t have a fair contract with an incompetent party. Not possible.
    Any such contract would be invalid, and the excercise of the advantage thereof = criminal e.g. theft, rape, slavery etc.

    *beep boop* i am a robot. let me tell you me robot observations about how hu-manns behave

  28. @Tom Martin

    “…prosecuted for attempting to profit by preying on the mentally ill pedo population.”

    Wow. That is some twisted abuser logic.

    “If people think whoring is so fucking great, then they should have to declare themselves a whore.”

    I don’t think anyone here thinks that children whoring themselves is great. But even if someone did, that does not make them a whore. I think gymnastics is great. Does that make me an Olympian?

  29. Argenti Aertheri

    Rutee — go back a page, I don’t think The First Joe is trying to redeem the MRM, I think he’s as disgusted with Tom as we are.

  30. i love tennis and i won wimbledon. i look forward to taking on Djokovic when we meet at the Australian Open in Melbourne. FACT.

  31. Argenti Aertheri

    “*beep boop* i am a robot. let me tell you me robot observations about how hu-manns behave”

    Please? Tom’s grossness needs the absurdity of that. Can we get robot views on “whoring it”?

  32. I actually have some respect for The First Joe here. Despite the philosophies he subscribes to, he’s at least willing to show some critical thinking and Minimum Standard Of Decent Human qualities.

    He came off a lot more honestly offended than that other guy who was just trying to argue No True MRA about this. I think Tom honestly disagrees with child prostitution and with yelling “whores” everywhere, and…

    obligatory image link

    SEE WHAT YOU’VE DONE TO MY STANDARDS, TOM MARTIN?

  33. @Tom Martin

    “Being a prostitute apologist is the same as being a prostitute. Only people who renounce prostitution in all its forms, can be considered non-whore humans.”

    So then, how are YOU not a prostitute, asking for donations? How do you earn money to buy yourself food and pay your rent?

  34. Argenti Aertheri

    I’m going to regret asking this, but if Sandusky gave his victims gifts, or more coach time, or any sort of bribe….does that make the victims whores?

    I am so going to regret asking that…

  35. There are 100,000 whores in the UK according to wikipedia.

    Make them pay a £500 license fee, plus the cost of a training course = Fifty Million pounds into the country’s coffers, plus all those jobs teaching the course.

    Whores earn what, £100,000 per year each?

    Tax them at 60%, equals £60,000×100,000 = Six billion pounds per year into the public’s coffers,

    plus the savings on benefit fraud from all those whores currently claiming they have no income, equals another billion of savings per year.

    So, over seven billion pounds should be enough to be able to rehabilitate child prostitutes, and pedos, and to educate people honestly about why choosing a career as a prostitute is such a stupid choice.

    Not to mention the strong message it sends to everyone, including all those housewhores, that charging for sex is wrong unless you have a license, and that getting a proper job really is the way to go, because it pays better than prostitution too.

  36. @BigMomma Congrats on Wimbledon — I always knew you had it in you!

  37. I actually have some respect for The First Joe here. Despite the philosophies he subscribes to, he’s at least willing to show some critical thinking and Minimum Standard Of Decent Human qualities.

    Reservedly agree, but I’m keeping my side-eye close.

  38. Whores earn what, £100,000 per year each?

    MRAs, why you always gotta make me wistfully sigh and go “if only”?

    Especially if we cross-referenced this with “97% of women are whores.”

  39. hmmm, as a homelessness worker in the UK, i’m fairly sure that, of women who lived in the hostels where i worked, the sex workers among them were not earning 100,000GBP.

    Most of those women were sadly earning a lot less, mostly enough from each encounter to buy a bag of heroin.

    Admittedly, i never asked to see their pay slips.

  40. @cloudiah, i am a tennis ace merely as a hobby, being a misandrist homelessness case worker is my paid (WHORING) occupation.

  41. Did Tom Martin honestly just argue that the richest upper class of people in society are actually just a bunch of whores?

    Because I can’t see how the argument that someone makes more than 100,000 pounds a year would be

    a) the kind of job you’d willingly renounce just because someone called you a “whore”- in fact, the word “whore” would then be similar in status to the word “doctor,” and therefore not an insult in the least.

    b) if it is indeed a “job” in the sense of “work for money”- why does Tom Martin have a problem with this? Vaginas aren’t public property. You can’t just walk down the street, choose some woman and tell her that you require use of her vagina for a few minutes. Whores are at least honest in the fact that they are explicit- you get sex (a service) for money. Even the MRA movement is annoyed at women who request (implicitly or explicitly) gifts in exchange for merely THE POSSIBILITY OF SEX (which, ya know, probably wouldn’t be such a problem if you TALKED about it or something like that), so what’s so wrong with “you get X sex act for X amount of money”? Isn’t that more HONEST?

    c) Why does it seem that Tom is incredibly silent about what a “non whore” looks/acts like? And why is he using words like “whore” to describe supposedly 97% of women? If almost all women are whores, then being a whore is normal, and the word “whore” by definition is an Othering term- one to describe some “fallen woman” or outsider to the group. If whore is the default, then whore loses all meaning.

    YOU LOSE THE GAME.

  42. Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III

    Tom, if 100, 000 UK sex workers are making an average of 100, 000 Pounds pa, then the UK is spending 10 billion pounds pa on sex workers, or a little under 2% of GDP. This strikes me as unlikely.

    Furthermore, if 97% of women are whores, then your numbers are way out. 97% of the female population of the UK is about 30,197,000. Should I be assuming that they do or don’t all make 100 000 pa?

    I would suggest that you are talking bullshit. except that bullshit makes flowers grow. I’d say you’re talking Agent Orange.

  43. I think we should tax Tom for every idiotic thing that comes out of his mouth. It would make enough for the industrialized world to get out of debt for the rest of eternity.

  44. I think we should tax Tom for every idiotic thing that comes out of his mouth. It would make enough for the industrialized world to get out of debt for the rest of eternity.

    i LOLed

  45. Nanasha,

    The age of criminal responsibility in the UK is 10. Neuroscience does suggest it should be older – but child prostitutes, who solicit sexual services, are a self-selecting group of precocious chancers, who see themselves as entrepreneurs, according to the Mexican study I posted for instance. They are not your typical 10 to 15 year old. They’ve had hard lives and grown up fast. They need social services who they can relate to, not parroting stories of “child sexual exploitation”, but talking about law-breaking but entrepreneurial children whose talents are wasted and could be developed through education and training to end up with careers 100 times more exiting and significant than being a prostitute.

  46. I think we should tax Tom for every idiotic thing that comes out of his mouth. It would make enough for the industrialized world to get out of debt for the rest of eternity.

    Oooh, I like this idea. It’s like the opposite of a value added tax.

  47. To clarify, 100,000 people in the UK are sex workers. 97% of women are whores though, because they haven’t renounced prostitution in all its forms.

  48. Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III

    And the 100 000 pounds pa? Citations?

  49. Tom. I don’t care what your socialized consensus says. IT IS A BIOLOGICAL FACT that no matter how “precocious” a child is, their BRAINS ARE LITERALLY NOT DEVELOPED ENOUGH to consent to sex until early 20’s.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_cortex

    Biology trumps social “thinking” no matter how many people think it.

    YOU LOSE. Now pay up. The stupid tax isn’t going to pay itself.

  50. “Taxing prostitutes is stupid, you misogynistic blah, blah, blah”

  51. http://hrweb.mit.edu/worklife/youngadult/brain.html

    This is also another fascinating look into what we know about the biology of the brain as it develops. Anyone who thinks that prepubescent children or young teens are “the same” as adults have missed the fucking point.

    And, by the way, there are gifted kids who excel specifically in all kinds of stuff (math, music, etc). Most of them are still kids in a lot of other areas, and often appear more advanced in one thing while being stunted or not at age-level at others. It’s largely because the brain of a child just cannot handle growing up too fast, even in kids who can play violin like someone who has trained their whole lives.

  52. themisanthropicmuse

    Here’s an interesting peek into bizarre batshit crazy world which Tom inhabits:

    He posts the article:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/feb/15/plight-of-kashmir-young-brides

    on reddit and titles it:

    Guardian is upset child prostitutes aren’t getting enough money

    http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/prldq/guardian_is_upset_child_prostitutes_arent_getting/

    [First comment was deleted]

    [–]Lawtonfogle 6 points 5 months ago

    What?

    You do realize that most payments made in relation to child child marriage is given to the parent, and many times the ‘payment’ is simply forgiving some dept.

    And child brides are no false story, they exist in many countries. In some places, they are treated like house maids and sex aids, but in other areas they are actually treated pretty well considering the culture they live in.

    [–]sexismbusters[S] -8 points 5 months ago

    The parents of the child get cash, and the child gets a marriage gift, a free house, and a husband who is supposed to pay all the bills. ‘House maids’? Yes, you mean housewives. A position of economic inactivity, which is exactly what whores want. It is not a popular opinion, but it is true. ‘Sex aids’? Yes, they are whores! I’m not saying it isn’t disgusting. If females want to eradicate prostitution, then they need to put the price down to zero.
    —————-

    Pretty scary this guy fails to understand the intricacies of human behavior or psychology in any context.

    I think this is why Tom refuses to acknowledge that child prostitution is rape. In Tom’s mind, rape is only rape if you accept nothing from the perpetrator after they have touched you sexually. If you do, even if it’s food or shelter to sustain the victim’s life, they have crossed the line from victim into willingly accepting a transaction of sex for money thus making them whores. Tom is just fucking sad, in every conceivable way.

  53. If we legitimized prostitution as a business, I would be all for taxing them. However, as it is, prostitution is largely illegal in most places and simply asking people to pay tax out of pocket when most of their money is in cash and under the table in the first place is kind of impossible to do. You cannot reliably tax people for stuff that is on the black market, otherwise drug cartels wouldn’t exist (and a lot of prostitution-including child prostitution rings are actually run by drug cartels, so what do you propose to do about them? Do you honestly think that a bunch of goons with guns are going to listen to your bullshit and not take you out behind a building and execute you, then dump your body in the river like they do with anyone else who gets in their nasty criminal way?).

    Also, why should prostitutes be taxed more rigorously than people in other professions? Is there a logical reason beyond “wah, I shouldn’t have to pay for sex” or are you just talking out of your ass again?

    If anything, the people who should be taxed the most are the people who make tons and tons of money, such as CEOs and shareholders of companies. Most of them can make more money in five minutes than the average worker makes in five years. So why not tax people who have the most money instead of the blue-coller workers who work with their bodies and hands? Prostitution is at least as body-intensive as working in a foundry or in construction. Why shouldn’t it be similarly taxed as a profession?

  54. Just to add to my “prostitution should be legitimate business” post- I was NOT including child prostitution as being something that ought to be legal. Consenting adults should be allowed to choose a regulated, safe and well-paid with benefits prostitute job if they wish, just like consenting adults can join the porn industry or get an office job. But children are still being exploited by being forced into prostitution and that’s seriously fucked up.

  55. The price for “sex”? What about the price for RAPE? The price for rape is that the woman expects not to be MURDERED or PHYSICALLY BLOODIED AND BEATEN. Therefore is rape still “whoring” just because the woman wants to SURVIVE it?

    If you seriously think that all sex has a price, then you must be a horrible excuse for a human being, because I have never met anyone who attempted to charge me for sex nor have I charged anyone for sex.

    If you throw some coins down at a woman after you rape her, does that mean it wasn’t rape? If you beat the shit out of a man and give him a present, does that excuse the assault?

    NO.

    These guys seem to think that buying a meal for someone means that they OWE them a use of their bodies for whatever they want.

    It’s like people who think that consent to sex is consent to pregnancy is consent to having ectopic pregnancy is consent to dying an agonizing death because if you consented, you should not get access to abortion. Therefore, consent to sex is consent to death.

    The sheer brain explodiness of this illogical mode of thinking makes me think that these guys have had a portion of their cerebral cortex removed.

  56. themisanthropicmuse

    @Nanasha:”The sheer brain explodiness of this illogical mode of thinking makes me think that these guys have had a portion of their cerebral cortex removed.” I don’t know but I am thinking that a partial lobotomy would still leave a person too intelligent to say the type of nonsensical tripe Tom does. He’d need a full one or perhaps Tom is the very first case of a conscious individual with anencephaly.

  57. Argenti Aertheri

    “The sheer brain explodiness of this illogical mode of thinking makes me think that these guys have had a portion of their cerebral cortex removed.”

    Yeah, no, they’re way too together for a lobotomy victim. And did Tom imply that feminists support dowries? ORLY?

  58. Nanasha said:

    Tom. I don’t care what your socialized consensus says. IT IS A BIOLOGICAL FACT that no matter how “precocious” a child is, their BRAINS ARE LITERALLY NOT DEVELOPED ENOUGH to consent to sex until early 20′s.

    Nanasha, does this mean we should raise the legal age of consent to 21? I think quite a few 16 year olds in the UK would be able to engage their brains to succinctly tell you to… er… rethink that one.

    Anyway, here’s an article about a prostitution tax meter set up in Germany. It doesn’t charge enough to be a deterrent, but it’s a start:

    http://theweek.com/article/index/218808/germanys-remarkable-prostitution-tax-meter

  59. Argenti Aertheri

    And I got ninja’ed while looking up an orly…oh erfworld, how I bloop thee :)

    Yeah, either it was a partial lobotomy and he’s always been this dumb, or he’s just this dumb — my money’s on the latter. (Though maybe if I note that the former involves what is basically an icepick, in an eye socket, he’ll be too busy squirming to post?)

    And um, my psych major self needs to say that lobotomies rank high among the worst things psych has ever done.

  60. Tom, why won’t you answer my questions?

    How are you NOT a whore?

  61. Gosh, the good trolls always ignore me. maybe I should ask easier questions :)

  62. Also, if I was interested in renouncing prostitution in ALL of its forms, how do I know what all of those forms are? How can I renounce something if I don’t know what it is?

  63. Tom, you still haven’t argued why taxes should be used to deter behavior. As far as I know, taxes are used to raise money for services and programs, not as a penalty. Those are called, well, PENALTIES (such as health and safety violations, etc).

    If throwing whores in jail and fining them because prostitution is illegal (our current behavior in most places that prostitution is illegal) is not strong enough a deterrent, then what makes you think that prohibitive taxing WILL?

    I’m beginning to think that we ought to tax people for displaying such an egregious lack of logic. It may not shut them up, but damn, we’ll be able to get out of national debt quicker than you can say “97% of women are whores.” XD

  64. Argenti Aertheri

    “How can I renounce something if I don’t know what it is?”

    Seriously Tom! I mean, do you denounce blooping?

    Does anyone here get erfworld jokes, or should I knock it off?

  65. Also, Tom, there is a good reason that car rental places and hotels do not allow people under 24 to use them.

    I would be fine with raising the legal consent age to a higher number, but to be fair, according to this article: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9578992 , the cerebral cortex is generally close to complete adult formation/development around 18 years of age. It is not *fully developed*, however, until one hits mid-20’s which is why a lot of places will not allow you to rent a car, rent a hotel, or enter into certain binding contracts until you’re around 24.

    This still does not mean that 10 year olds have sufficient cortical development to truly consent or enter any legal binding contract, including a work contract.

  66. Sir Bodsworth Rugglesby III

    What happens if I denounce prostitution in most of its forms, but I miss one? How about if I do renounce prostitution in all its forms today, but next week someone comes up with a new form?

  67. Nanasha said,

    “… Tom refuses to acknowledge that child prostitution is rape. In Tom’s mind, rape is only rape if you accept nothing from the perpetrator after they have touched you sexually. If you do, even if it’s food or shelter to sustain the victim’s life, they have crossed the line from victim into willingly accepting a transaction of sex for money thus making them whores.”

    Well Nanasha, nearly right, except for one sneaky detail. Child prostitutes accept money before the pedophile has touched them, not after.

    They have the option not to accept the money, you whore apologist you.

    But anyway, well done for concurring that prostitution should be taxed. However, your argument appears to be that because there might be some difficulty taxing sex workers, we should therefore… give up? … because the criminals have guns? Our police have guns, Nanasha, and it is their job to go and get the guns the criminals have. Our police force will not be intimidated (very brave in the line of duty).

    But remember, the criminal elements will be removed from the equation, because prostitution will be a licensed activity, for non criminals only, for which you will need to have passed an NVQ in health and safety and taking cock.

    The money raised will easily be enough to effectively police any unlicensed or underage prostitution.

    The reason sex workers should pay a higher rate of tax, is to act as a deterrent, because sex work is something most people would like to see less of, for the variety of reasons which inform our understanding about what is right and wrong. I have my reasons, and 65% of women and 60% of men in the UK have their own reasons, for why they think it is wrong to sell sex.

  68. Argenti – I get the erfworld joke.

  69. Why are you so obsessed with prostitution, Tom? You’ve put a lot of thought into this. Did a prostitute break your heart once?

  70. Tom, why is sex sacred? People sell other services, such as massage, yard work, child care, even septic-tank clean-out service. All of these services involve the use of their bodies for a price so that people don’t have to go through the effort of learning how to do it themselves.

    Why should consenting adult people who want to sell sex not be allowed to exist? Obviously there must be people who wish to BUY sex services, otherwise there would be no such thing as prostitution. If you don’t want to have sex for money or pay for sex with money, that is YOUR right, but you should not be allowed to make a pay-service illegal simply because you don’t want to pay for it. I mean, I don’t like acupuncture, but it works for other people so why should I try and ban it just because I don’t want to do it?

    And how do you know that pedophiles pay children for sex before the sex happens? Are you present for all child/pedophile sex/money exchanges? Are you a *shudder* “peeping Tom”?

    Besides, according to most statistics, most pedophiles do not use child prostitutes. They groom and abuse children who are put into their close circle of influence and then abuse children by using shame, coercion and fear tactics to silence them. Pedophiles have much more in common with sociopaths than with fetishists. They seem to also find some level of sexual satisfaction in the torture and abuse part, not just the sex. Pedophiles behave in very seriously sociopathic ways, and most of them do not believe in paying for sex because they believe it is owed to them for free (much like you appear to, actually).

    Do you advocate that we raise the tax on other blue-collar service professions so that people will be encouraged to learn how to fix their own sewage systems and massage themselves? And also, the “tax” for prostitutes right now is much more severe- they get thrown in jail (often with hard criminals), and must pay large fines if caught. One might argue that a criminal record and losing all their money would be enough to stop it, yet most of these prostitutes go back to the streets when they are set free. Simply making it legal and taxing it heavily would not stop prostitution.

    As I said before, the only way to stop prostitution is for people who want to pay for it to stop paying for it.

    After all, we don’t seem to have anyone who sits around on street corners selling Betamax (anyone remember these?) machines because there is no street demand for it. Same thing goes for the amount of bootleg VHS tapes that you no longer see. Stop the demand and the supply will dwindle.

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