Men’s Rights Redditor: “Men … need to start putting … government agents who violate their rights in the dirt.” [+54 upvotes]
Today, in the Men’s Rights subreddit, we find Demonspawn, a long-time fixture in Reddit’s MRA circles, getting dozens of upvotes for a comment in which he advocates murdering family court judges and other government officials:
Demonspawn is responding to a post from Robert Franklin on Fathers and Families about Dan Brewington, “[a]n Indiana man fac[ing] five years in prison because he criticized the judge and the custody evaluator in his divorce and custody case.”
Or at least that’s how Franklin wants to frame the issue. While conceding that Brewington “often used intemperate language” on his blog, Franklin downplays what seems to have been a relentless four-year harassment campaign from the troubled father. According to a report on the case on the Eagle Country Online website:
[P]rosecutors argued that Brewington took his postings beyond being critical of the court system. They became personal against anybody who became involved with his case.
“This was sick revenge dragging my wife and kids into the matter,” Humphrey said during his testimony. “I don’t know of many cases where a subject has more clearly expressed his intent to do harm.” …
Brewington … called [custody evaluator Edward] Connor a child molester and prostitute in his “Internet rampage,” contacted the Children’s Home of Northern Kentucky where Conner is involved as a board member, and sending mass e-mails to Connor’s colleagues and legal professional around the area. …
Connor’s wife, Dr. Sara Jones-Connor, reaffirmed what her husband shared with the judge.
“For over four years we have dealt with his attacks on a daily basis,” Jones-Conner said.
And Franklin leaves out the most serious of the accusations against Brewington: that he threatened to murder the judge.
Brewington’s cellmate at the Dearborn County Law Enforcement Center for two-and-a-half months, Joseph McCaleb, had sent a letter to jail officials on September 25 after being concerned with what he heard from Brewington.
“He talked about following (Judge Humphrey) home, shooting him, and dumping him in the river,” McCaleb said of Brewington’s alleged “detailed and thought out” plan.
I should note that after testifying that Brewington’s threats seemed serious, McCaleb later concluded that they weren’t; and Judge Brian Hill did not take his testimony into consideration when sentencing Brewington.
Was Brewington’s sentence fair? I don’t know. But Franklin’s posting was misleading, to say the least, if not dishonest. And while a few people raised questions about it, no one on the Men’s Rights subreddit bothered to spend the two minutes on Google that would have turned up the story I’ve been quoting from, instead relying entirely on Franklin’s, er, incomplete account.
Whether or not Brewington’s threats were sincere, Franklin’s post had Demonspawn and many others on the Men’s Rights subreddit thinking violent thoughts themselves. Here are some more selections from the discussion there. Note that every single violent comment I quote below got upvotes from the regulars.
Here, Boss_Money invokes the memory of Tom Ball, who killed himself in hopes that his dramatic suicide would encourage other MRAs to start firebombing courthouses and police stations:
Later in that same thread, coldacid suggests that suicide is a much less effective strategy than murder:
Anxdiety, meanwhile, shares his fantasies of violent “retribution.”
Boss_Monkey returns with a miniature manifesto for armed revolution:
And whats_up_doc suggests that violence may be the only solution:
The Men’s Rights subreddit is by and large the most “moderate” of all the major Men’s Rights forums online. But this is the language, and the thinking, of a hate movement. Anyone who really cares about improving life for men needs to call this kind of thing out, and make clear that it is completely unacceptable in any rights movement worthy of the name.
Posted on July 13, 2012, in antifeminism, dozens of upvotes, grandiosity, harassment, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, reddit, threats, violence, your time will come. Bookmark the permalink. 301 Comments.
So not in the mood to hear the violent rhetoric of these keyboard commandos right now. A guy in Wisconsin just murdered his three daughters to get back at his wife, who divorced him last year. And another guy ran over his child after fighting with his ex in a parking lot. Fuck all these assholes for defending the actions of abusive, violent bullies.
And I just love the way they’re over on the Spearhead, psychoanalizing David and us. Hey, we’re not the ones advocating violence towards our fellow citizens and public officials. That would be them.
Cliff:
I agree with this. I wouldn’t want everywhere to be like that, and I appreciate a strict comment policy at places where it’s what’s needed, and some people (not naming any names here …) allow any bullshit through to the detriment of constructive dialogue — and I think I understand why they do it — but for playing games with the trolls, this is a good environment.
Frankly, mocking misogyny in the posts while being strict about keeping MRAs out of the comments would be an echo chamber. Most feminist blogs, I would say, benefit from not having their comments infested, but here it would quickly turn into “that sure is stupid.” “Yup.” “Yup.” “Yup.” Or Tumblr.
It keeps away certain people on our side, but that may not be a huge loss.
Unimaginative:
I certainly feel I get the benefit of Hanlon’s Razor here. Also, this is the only place I’ve ever argued with trolls and had other people back me up.
“A guy in Wisconsin just murdered his three daughters to get back at his wife, who divorced him last year. And another guy ran over his child after fighting with his ex in a parking lot.”
What. The. Fuck. Is wrong with some people?!
Today is apparently going to be one of those days I wish for a point of view ray and clue-by-4.
Things Freitag is unable to comprehend, entry #589,734,902,811: I’m mad at my ex so I kill children to get back at her.
@dracula
i have a theory that getting put on permanent moderation broke his entertainment value. dude used to sit here are respond obsessively to every comment for like hours at a time, which is how we got all his best tangents (superdogs, the spanish alphabet, ‘flouride’ shots)
now, unless david’s here at the same time he is, he can’t scream at us in real time, and even if david is here there’s a delay. he’s gotta be more selective and more focused, and we dont get the same opportunity to encourage his tangents
which isnt to say he should be taken off moderation, because his little rant the other night was further proof that he needs it
I can already predict what MRAs would say if and when they hear about those stories. Something along the lines of: “I’m not saying I condone it, but it’s understandable”.
Shade — the worst part? I found the fox news article on the first case, and not even they had any sympathy for the father — they did, of course, question where the mother was while the kids were with the father. MRM please explain, do fathers need supervision so the mother won’t be blamed if he kills the kids, or is suggesting such a thing MISANDRY?
If the latter, could you go argue with fox please?
well, i guess if it really bothers her she could storm off in a huff and then reappear a couple weeks later with a different name as if nothing happened
Hah, wow. That would be amusing to watch though, Fox News viewers vs MRAs. Too bad it has to be over something so horrible, it sort of cuts down on most of the hilarity of the concept.
I’m glad of the commenting environment here, including the trolls, for the same reasons others have expressed. And I’m glad I can go to another feminist blog and have the trolls be quickly silenced. This wouldn’t work everywhere, but it really works here.
But then, other commenters get targeted in ways I rarely do. I’ve only once had something horrible said directly about me here.* Of course, on the single occasion that it happened, I felt fairly confident that if I’d found it really triggering and explained my feelings to David he would have been willing to remove the post for me — not to try to read your mind or anything, David. :)
*Meller told me I could have avoided the abuse I suffered, abuse that turned me into a submissive mouse who couldn’t imagine a situation where she could actually be in the right or have the right to defend herself, if only I’d been more submissive. Seriously, fuck that guy.
Also, Steele admitted to being Varpole? I’m shocked, shocked I say!
Antz’s “all the custody rules are misandry” legal crusade was definitely my favorite of his incarnations so far. I keep waiting for him to top that one. XD
The moderating rules here are very good, AFAIK. I’ve only been here a week or so but I did read a lot of the archives before posting. But I truly wish some MRA would show up to explain why the murder of children is AOK when getting back at the ex. When is the murder of children ok, again? I mean, children?
Also, Varpole? He never did explain the nefarious smear campaign against him by Mr. Futrelle. What tactics? What terrible thingies? What again was the terrible horrible most awful thing done against him? In detail pls because Freitag is a self-admitted dimwit in such cases.
I like being silly on the internet, so yeah, mocking the trolls is one of the draws.
Freitag — Varpole came over here as a sock, David out’ed his sock, Varpole had a small meltdown about how he wasn’t sock puppetting, this was a smear campaign, we were just believing everything David says. I commented over on anti-manboobz that the only way David could prove it was a sock was to give out Varpole’s IP, and the sock’s IP, David confirmed that he could do that, but would not without Varpole’s permission — Varpole epically lost it and decided to shut down anti-manboobz because of “Futrelle’s vile smear campaign”.
I think the thing that makes Manboobz good is anyone coming here knows straight away what they’re getting themselves into. David gives a lot of warning that there’s a shitload of bad stuff here (left mostly as it is, within reason, so we can dismantle and mock it), so anyone who doesn’t want to deal with that sort of thing can avoid it.
Freitag, all David did was call Varpole out on sockpuppeting as Torvus Butthorn, and Varpole shit his britches over it as if David doxxed him.
Sci-fi Zarat is best Zarat!
Though maybe I should say “one of the things” rather than “the thing”, since it’s the commenters that make this place good, at least from my point of view. A good balance of awesome regulars and conversations and it not being too overwhelming for someone like me who isn’t too social generally.
Hellkell – I think Varpole really wanted (or in some warped “I expect everyone to be as bad as me” way, expected) David to attack him and try to get him taken down, and when David didn’t deliver, he was left yelling “oh no the manboobz are sinking my ship” as he steered it onto the rocks.
Credit where it’s due, Torvus Butthorn was a magnificent name.
It’s certainly far more interesting than anything else Torvus/Steele/Varpole ever posted, and by some distance.
Cliff, you might be right. He’s not that smart and does seem to think that everyone would be as stupid and awful as he would be.
I just wish Steele would be banned now that he’s been outed as Varpole.
Interesting that you all immediately and implicitly accept Futrelle’s assertion that I sockpuppeted. Reflects Boobzland’s vile hive mentality.
Typical Boobzland- calling for my banning for nothing but dissent from your misandrist-feminist, extremist, for lack of a better word, “bullshit”. Standard silencing.
hellkell, you excitable little tot.
Steele, you said yourself you did. I’d ban you also for being tedious. I know that’s misandrist of me, but suck it, you flaming pointless jackass from hell.
Excitable little tot? Is that the best you can do?
That you wouldn’t believe a moderator when they say that a troll is sockpuppeting says a lot about the trustworthiness of MRM blog owners
Steelpole, as you well know, you posted both comments from the same IP address. Do you want me to post a screenshot showing this?
Isn’t that the whole reason you anonymized your IP when you returned? So I wouldn’t know it was you?
You posted dozens of comments with your current account, and at no point did I reveal that the account was another sockpuppet. Why? Because I didn’t know! You changed your IP, so I had no way of telling who you were.
Whether or not I actually sockpuppeted is beside the point; the point is, Boobzland blindly accepted Futrelle’s assertion that I did. This is very telling.
My actual sockpuppeting, or lack thereof, is not relevant to the discussion.
Shorter Steelepole: Well, yeah, BUT YOU’RE ALL SHEEPLE.
This is the funniest shit ever.
“Okay, so I did it, but you’re all bastards for believing that I did it.”
…If he wasn’t your sock, how come Mr. Butthorn mysteriously stopped posting the instant David outed him as a sock?
…Also, for fuck’s sake, you’re socking right now, you went a good long time without telling us who “Steele” was.
…Also, I don’t understand how being accused of sockpuppetry (wrongly or rightly) means you can’t possibly keep a blog any more.
“Regardless of the fact that I actually did the thing David said I did, you should not have believed him.”
Let’s see. Somebody who has never lied to us (except in jokes) tells us that someone we’ve seen twist facts beyond all recognition in order to back up his illogical points has sockpuppeted.
We should believe the troll instead of the site’s owner… Yeah, I got nothin’.
Do you think that you’re the only one who has ever sockpuppeted on this blog?? We did not “blindly accept” David’s assertion that you sockpuppeted, we accepted his assertion in good faith due to the numerous other occasions that David has revealed a sockpuppet and has had the evidence to support his assertion.
@Steele: I at least accepted David’s identification of you as a sockpuppet because he has identified others, and because *as far as I can tell* he has always been truthful with his minions. IP identification is usually accepted as a fairly good bit of evidence for someone posting with two different names, i.e. sockpuppeting.
LOTS of the trolls around here attempt to sockpuppet; after they are found out through IP, they often learn how to use the anonymizers. It’s commonplace, so we’re not surprised when it happens (though I admit to wondering about the dogged insistence on commenting here no matter what).
You, on the other hand, apparently lie through your teeth and very badly (“oh, I didn’t mention I’m really Varpole?).
“Become the Batman”
If this person is a troll he’s a genius. If not, oh dear.
From anxdiety…”The level of raw hatred is inexplicable.”
Well that’s an unexpected moment of honesty, albeit probably unintentional too. It really is odd for anyone to be so convinced that children are property that they’re willing to kill the government officials who’re just doing their jobs and trying to protect the children. Even if you think that a government official’s decision was completely wrong, most people don’t go from “you’re wrong” to “so I’m going to kill you”,
CassandraSays – What I’m wondering now is:
If two men split up (and the children are adopted, so neither one has a “I’m the biological father” claim), who does the judge have to give custody to? How does the judge avoid death threats from angry men then?
Yes, that is very telling, isn’t it.
Or, what do they think happens when two lesbians break up? Do they assume the kid goes with the biological mother, or that the judge offers to cut the child in half like the biblical story, or do they just not think lesbians (the real kind, not the porn for straight men kind) exist?
Men Going Their Own Way baffled by lesbians, refuse to believe they exist
Violence has absolutely no place in the MRA movement. These guys on Reddit who are encouraging violence are only making the MRA movement a mockery and allowing feminists not to take us MRA’s seriously.
Writing books are much more effective in conveying the MRA position than any violence. Books such as “Loving men, respecting women” by Tim Goldich and Warren Farrell’s “The Myth of Male Power” are good books to read on the MRA perspective.
Also organization such as the National Coalition for Men ,The Mankind Project, and The Good Men Project are much more effective in helping MRA’s than any violence could do. These guys from Reddit just don’t get it.
I thought you were going your own way, MGTOWMRA.
The National Coalition for Men endorsed Tom Martin, who believes some 10 year olds are whores. You might want to have a word with them about that.
“Whether or not I actually sockpuppeted is beside the point; the point is, Boobzland blindly accepted Futrelle’s assertion that I did. This is very telling.”
*Sigh* I already explained this to you once Varpole — we believed David because, unlike you, he is trustworthy in these matters. You may recall where we asked if you (Steele) were a repeat troll, and since your current IP does not match previous troll IPs, got told you were not (or at least, were not the troll we were guessing).
As for “silencing” you…damned thing is called a comment policy, most places have them, and this one includes “especially, or persistently, offensive, disruptive, or tedious” — and you’re trying to violate that in all manners possible (would you like to go for especially offensive?)
And fuck, pecunium’s traveling and thus not here to confirm, but didn’t you threaten to mod him? As in threaten to “silence” him?
And for far less than the thousands of comments you’ve posted here in under a week?
David, I’m curious now, what’s Steele’s post count up to? Can you check that? And what was NWO’s again?
Actually, can we maybe just ignore Steele? He’s acting like a toddler whining for attention, and in that case reinforcing the behavior usually doesn’t work out well.
aworldanonymous: DKM (aka Meller) has also ridiculed the pain of cancer patients and to me to euthanize one of our cats because she scratched me (it’s hardly her fault that the line between ‘pet me, pet me!’ and ‘if you touch me again I will fucking scratch you’ is very, very thin). A regular fountain of goodwill and empathy is Meller.
Meller also has this insistent thing where he believes that as long as you only wish horrible doom on some people, instead of all people, you are wise and just. See, “murder everyone” would be terrible, but “murder blue-eyed people” shows great discernment!
wait, the thing your indignant about now is that we trusted a person who has a history of not lying to us? in what world does that make sense.
like it says a lot more about you than you think that youre now like ‘harumph. believing the words a person said. typical manboobz behavior.’
I’m visualizing this literally happening and it is hilarious.
Anyway, I’ve just caught up on this thread, and my position on trolls is the same as most of you: they’re not a bug, they’re a feature. I don’t know why they continue to show up, but I’m glad they do. And, yeah, I really only censor/moderate when they go after individuals in a really nasty way. NWO is definitely staying on moderation, because he still does that from time to time.
I’m a bit stricter when new trolls show up; if they say something really obnoxious or tedious in their very first comment, which is automatically moderated, I don’t let them post here at all.
I think my issue with Varpole is that he’s no longer entertaining. Reading his comments in the “omg misandry is totally institutional, but not really, but yes because my teacher told me I was a shitty writer” thread was like trying to walk through treacle. It was just so boring.
MGTOWMRA: I much prefer http://mensrightsactivism.com/ to any of those you mentioned.
And doesn’t Warren Farrel’s book use those horribly flawed false-rape studies by Eugene Kanin? I am incredibly suspicious of any book on gender politics that I first heard of being praised on the Tom Leykis Show.
Farrell is a bullshit artist who as a rule lies like hell. The most iconic example is “Men predominate the top *and the bottom* of society”, wherein he pretended women did not do dangerous work throughout society, do not predominate the poor, etc. Sure, mention the coal miners, but don’t forget that girls were in there with the boys. Or the early (And ongoing) textile industry. I think that one is in fact “The Myth of Male Power”. Either way, anyone mentioned in the same breath is as suspect as he is, in my book.
The fucker is laughed at by sociologists for a reason.
Oh hey, and he’s on the boob roll. That’s about right.
Know of any good critiques of “The Myth of Male Power,” Rutee (or anyone else)? I am in the mood for some solid anti-bullshit reading.
wait, the thing your indignant about now is that we trusted a person who has a history of not lying to us? in what world does that make sense.
I’ve been sitting here pondering this very same thing. I mean, is it some kind of “gotcha – you blindly follow David” kind of thing? Because that’s the only way that it makes sense, if you squint with your right eye a little and tilt your head. Is this what it has come down to? “See? You’re a feminist echo chamber because you believe someone has some solid evidence?”
Actually, that last part could apply to a lot of the MRA rhetoric.
“Meller also has this insistent thing where he believes that as long as you only wish horrible doom on some people, instead of all people, you are wise and just. See, “murder everyone” would be terrible, but “murder blue-eyed people” shows great discernment!”
Sounds like Ruby’s “Oh, but it’s fine that I think prison rape is funny because I only think it’s funny when it happens to people who deserve it (like rapists)!”
@David Futrelle
“And, yeah, I really only censor/moderate when they go after individuals in a really nasty way. NWO is definitely staying on moderation, because he still does that from time to time.”
Yet anyone who who goes after me as an individual, which is everyone, has free rein to do so. Just another example of those in power dictating who can say what. Be that as it may, back to the topic at hand. The use of violence/non-violence in obtaining justice.
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/2012/07/05/indiana-dad-sentenced-to-five-years-for-criticizing-judge-custody-evaluator/
Here we have a man, proven to be an outstanding loving father totally devoted to his children. The feminist power structure infesting our courts decreed him unfit to have any rights to even visit his children. He had the audacity to criticize the prevailing feminist power structure and was sentenced to 5 years in prison.
If non-violent protest against the feminist power structure results in the violence of imprisonment, what course of action is left for the oppressed? How does one combat tyranny non-violently when the non-violent protests are met with ever increasing punishments of violence? How many children need be kidnapped? How many men need be extorted or imprisoned before violence is the only course of action left?
Michael Flood did a brief review of the book, and the review may still be available in the archives at xyonline.net
i started reading the myth of male power as part of the masculinities module i took as part of my (uncompleted) MA in Women’s Studies. i found it repugnant (this was in the mid 90s so my memories are fuzzy) and went on to try to discuss in my class (of me, one other student and the teacher) about how i thought gender roles were complete restrictive, that Farrell was peddling yet another false masculinity trope, that the gender binary was fucked up. this i remember more clearly than the book because they both sat there in shocked silence and eventually told me i was weird (in other words). i still remember the looks on their faces to this day.
i started working full time in a homeless shelter somewhere about then and the course fell by the wayside sadly. any critique of that book would be a good read for me!
Tedious and tediouser….I can choose between the whoremaster or a smelly sock.
So…I’m playing Harvest moon and some of my animals are dying of old age? Is this a sign?
Here’s the review by Michael Flood from xyonline:
http://www.xyonline.net/content/book-review-myth-male-power-why-men-are-disposable-sex-warren-farrell
It isn’t particularly short, and it rips the book apart. Some quotes:
Farrel is a piece of work, and partly responsible for the “but you see, men can’t force women to give them sex on demand, and sometimes women say no even after you’ve prepaid them by being nice, therefore men don’t actually have any real privilege” school of thought that stinks up not just the MRM, but many other parts of online culture where lots angry men gather.
If anyone is curious, here is one document I was able to find about the divorce proceedings which Dan Brewington found SO UNFAIR. You will see that not only one but two attorneys bailed on him, and he ended up serving as his own attorney. You will see that he endlessly delayed the proceedings by filing motion after motion after motion, which were all dismissed, including a motion to replace the presiding judge, which is when Humphrey took over the case. After Brewington got his first judge thrown off the case he called him to testify. He filed twice for a mistrial.
What is explicitly clear when looking over this documentation is that this man is a harasser. He harassed his wife through the courts, he harassed the first judge on the case, and he harassed the second judge. He would probably benefit by talking to someone about his obsessive behavior. But in no way does he appear to be a victim of the court.
http://www.ai.org/judiciary/opinions/pdf/07201011.pdf
Also, the reason he was made to pay attorney fees is because he was personally responsible for dragging this case on for TWO YEARS before the divorce was finalized. DAMN STRAIGHT he owed her attorney fees for that bullshit.
Okay seriously, read the whole thing. Brewington also harassed his ex-wife’s divorce attorney by calling him up and making vague threats about firearms training. This man is very clearly a dangerous person.
NWO said:
Does NWO not know that anybody can start their own blog? It’s, like, super easy. Surely he doesn’t honestly imagine that David runs this blog because he’s part of some special privileged class?
I don’t know why I’m expecting NWO to display anything other than shocking ignorance about blogs, given his shocking ignorance about literally every other thing in the world, but for some reason this leaves me flabbergasted.
You want to see an MRA denounce this kind of a violence in the movement? Fine. I’m an MRA and I denounce violence in the movement. I don’t think murdering judges or women is an acceptable response to the injustice men face, although I do think the injustice men face is very real. Are you happy now?
I have sympathy for men who are pushed to commit suicide by divorce courts or their ex-wives. I do not have sympathy for men who murder judges, their wives, or especially not their children. MURDERING YOUR CHILDREN IS SICK. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Guess what, though? Now you have to stop saying no MRA ever denounces this stuff. I JUST DID and I am not the only one who does. I also think it is needs to be said that the men who commit these murders are a tiny fraction of those screwed over by unjusice and femae-supporting courts. Most men and most MRAs don’t do that, because most MRAs aren’t terrible people. But the pro-feminist, anti-male media likes to point them out and make a big deal of it to make MRAs, divorced fathers, and in men in general look bad.
Are there disurbed people in the MRA movement? Yes, but there are far more equally disturbed people in the feminist movement and the feminist movement is by nature disturbed, as it seeks to correct unjustices that were either never real, or long ago vanquished. Women retain both the old advantages of femininity by being able to force men to “provide” for them as well as gain male privileges such as voting and working outside the home. Men however, are still subject to many of their same prejudices and still work to benefit women.
Are some women discriminated agains? Yes, but not because they are women. Some women may be discriminated against due to being poor or gay or black, but that’s why they are being discriminated. Not because of their womanness.
NWO, my brother never met a job he didn’t quit and sometimes sells pot but he still managed to get full custody of his daughter. It’s common for fathers to have at least shared custody if they’re interested in their kids at all. The kind of people who make death threats: pretty safe to say the courts are correct in judging them not to be fit parents.
@blitzgal
“Okay seriously, read the whole thing. Brewington also harassed his ex-wife’s divorce attorney by calling him up and making vague threats about firearms training. This man is very clearly a dangerous person.”
Strange how a father who loves his daughters and will do anything to be with them is framed as you so delicately put it, “very clearly a dangerous person.” A man who is willing to sacrifice even his own freedom to be with his daughters is a danger? Sounds like a hero to me. In the court of womens law, to be a man is to be guilty. Forfeit your wealth, forfeit your children and forfeit your freedom. Now go write a story about how men won’t take responsibility for their children. Add +1 to the statistic of men not caring for their children.
In five years he’ll be released penniless, jobless, homeless, a criminal record and owing five years of child support backpay with interest. Congrats ladies! Job well done!