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Clop clop clopping along with Epic Atheist Brony, MRA extraordinaire [UPDATE: Probably a troll.]

You remember the Men’s Rights Bronies we met not so long ago? Well, I have discovered another one, this one on Twitter! In addition to being brony and a “highly active MRA,” he is also – brace yourself for this – an atheist who loves to wear fedoras and talk in public about what he likes to do with his penis. (And they say stereotypes aren’t true.) His personal creed? “Love & tolerance.”

Anyway, his name is Epic Atheist Brony, and here’s his Twitter profile.

[NOTE: Mr. Brony seems to be a troll. See update below for details.]

Here are some recent highlights from his Twitter timeline. (Note: “clopping” is Brony slang for masturbation.)

Love & tolerance, everyone!

But you gals will have to enjoy your love & tolerance in the kitchen, while the clearly superior Epic Atheist Brony whacks it to cartoon ponies and tweets about which cartoon ponies his penis likes the most.

UPDATE: It seems likely that Mr. Brony is a troll/Poe. “His” original Twitter profile pic was a photo of a guy in a fedora, supposedly him. Trouble is, the actual guy in the pic stepped forward and explicitly denied being Mr. Brony (and, for that matter, being a “sexist fucktarded meme-spewing Redditor.”) Here’s the pic the real fedora-wearing dude posted as evidence. Thanks to @mister_smiley on Twitter for the link.

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Posted on July 10, 2012, in antifeminism, bronies, creepy, I'm totally being sarcastic, men who should not ever be with ponies ever, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy, penises, twitter. Bookmark the permalink. 277 Comments.

  1. For most of my young life, I was interested in video games, pretending to be a dinosaur, sports, and rough-and-tumble play with all the boys. I still identify as being female. And even though I basically lived in jeans for my whole childhood, I learned to appreciate wearing more feminine clothing (if it falls within specific parameters) as I got older. Strangely enough, I still don’t like high heels (ever), wear only the most bare amounts of make up on special occasions only, and keep my hair cut in a nice disconnected A-line that’s easy to get ready in the morning without too much fuss.

    But I’m still happy with being a biological woman. There’s no “way” to be a woman or a man. It’s all about how you personally identify, and how you feel most comfortable.

    I have never understood why people are so insistant on shoving people into boxes. I would never put all of my female friends into a box marked “female friend” and then treat them interchangeably, so why would we do this with gender?

  2. NWO, if those tiny little boxes you define as male and female were true, society wouldn’t have to spend so much effort trying to police people into fitting into them.

  3. NWO, we know for a fact you want to do “female” things. We’re not forcing ourselves to do shit, you’re the one forcing yourself into the man-box, where you have to do stuff you hate. This is probably why you yowl about the gender binary so much, you don’t want to let your own desires out.

    Cliff:
    <Dani and Ozy – I identify most with Rainbow Dash, because:

    1) OMG BUTCH LITTLE PONY AWWWWW.
    I also liked the episode where she gets stage fright and we see that the strong people can also be weak too sometimes but that doesn’t make them contemptible.

    I also like Applejack purely because she is a pony with a ponytail and my brain can barely handle that much cute.

    but…they all have ponytails…
    it’s their tails…. o_O

  4. I’m sorry, I don’t get any of this. Are these people fetishists? Do they have a sexual interest in horses? Should I care what their views are on feminism?

  5. Argenti Aertheri

    karmarad — bronies have a bit of a history here.

    Near as I can tell though, the manboobz brony thing is mostly just that many regulars here are MLP fans — thus making MRA bronies a decent distraction from the epic stupidity that is most of the MRM.

    “Are these people fetishists?” — generally just fans.

    “Do they have a sexual interest in horses?” — only cartoon ones, I think.

    “Should I care what their views are on feminism?” — you might want to ask that about the entire MRM (seriously, your brain may melt if you take them too seriously, between Tom Martin, Steele, and scrapemind today has been interesting, to say the least)

  6. but the core group is all mares (uh… girls).

    What about spike?

  7. TheCatFromOuterSpace

    NWO sez:

    You’ve been told all these positive traits of being a man so you try to be them. They’re positive, “for” a man. As a woman you have different trait’s that are positive, “for” a woman.

    Forgive this intergalactic lurking feline if he’s wrong, but isn’t NWO’s schtick “Teh menz are demonized by those darn medias, which are all controlled by the feminists they are. Who are evil, dontchaknow?”

    So, who exactly is telling Cliff all of these positive manly-manly-men-like traits she should try to emulate, if our feminist ruled, nay, enslaved society hates men with the heat of a thousand suns?

    MRAs are confusing.

  8. To be fair, anything can be used for evil (EVEN CHAIRS, *COUGH TOM MARTIN COUGH*), so while I am not surprised that there are bronies who are nasty misogynist asshats, I am also incredibly happy that, as a female brony (pegasister, whatever), the overwhelming majority of my brony friends are decent, awesome people who I have become really good online friends with and it has REALLY helped me cope with losing a lot of my friends when they all moved away and I became kind of isolated because most of my IRL friends are offline people and come from that cusp of when the internet was starting to actually be a Thing.

    So yeah. Bronies, in my opinion, are by and large a pretty chill group.

    But there are always individuals out there who make me want to scream.

    So yeah. Boo.

  9. NWO, which traits are positive for a man? Which traits are positive for a woman?

    Which personality traits do men have that are impossible for women to have? Which personality traits do women have that are impossible for men to have, besides the crying thing?

    You’ve talked a lot about wanting to be homemaker, nanny, or housekeeper. Is it okay for a man to want these things, or are you in the wrong box for wanting them?

  10. You’ve talked a lot about wanting to be homemaker, nanny, or housekeeper. Is it okay for a man to want these things, or are you in the wrong box for wanting them?

    If he thought it were OK, do you think he’d yell this loud about proper gender roles, and how men are so noble for forcing themselves to work outside the home? Of course he thinks men have it worse—as far as he’s concerned, at least based on my interpretation of what he’s written, women get to do all the cool stuff. SAHMs live the life he wish he had, a life which at the same time is supposedly unimportant, shameful, and demeaning, so it’s a taboo object for him.

    This doesn’t justify his WOMEN IN HEAT MEN MUST BE OBEYED arglblargl, and it certainly doesn’t justify the weird sexualization of children, but it may go some way towards explaining his rage.

  11. People like NWO are the reason why so many people exhibit their true desires for roles in their sexuality. It’s like men who want to be “sissified” (because there’s nothing more gross and powerless than a girl AMIRITE?) and then dress up in some shitty wig and ill-fitting women’s clothes and act like that’s totally hot and shit. They are so obsessed with the dichotomy of gender, that expressing what they truly want has to be dirty and wrong and sexualize and it has to be framed in the language and behavior of degradation. It shows that so many people are not only shunting others into tight, ill-fitting boxes, but they are also doing the same to themselves, and longing to break free of them, but feel the intense stigma and abuse they will suffer for doing so is more frightening than simply allowing themselves to be who they are.

    Plus NWO obviously has rape trauma and other fucked up mom-incest/rape/abuse history, so his behavior, while illogical and irrational, is very understandable.

    It still doesn’t give him free license to be a total asshat, just like the fact that my mom was horribly and pervasively sexually molested as a child did not give her the right to go WAY too far into detail about what rapists do to little girls when my sister and I were in early elementary school, nor did it excuse her “competing” with us by treating every man in every room sexually as though we were competing for his affection. It did not excuse her dismissiveness, her outright mocking of me and teasing/berating me about being a lesbian just because I did not have a boyfriend in the 7th grade.

    We’re all working through our own shit, but it is important that in the meanwhile, we don’t smear that shit all over everyone else around us. NWO is failing miserable in that regard.

  12. Nanasha:

    People like NWO are the reason why so many people exhibit their true desires for roles in their sexuality. It’s like men who want to be “sissified” (because there’s nothing more gross and powerless than a girl AMIRITE?) and then dress up in some shitty wig and ill-fitting women’s clothes and act like that’s totally hot and shit.

    Um, being into drag is not problematic or horrible, nor is it the result of hating women, it’s a fine thing to be.

    Plus NWO obviously has rape trauma and other fucked up mom-incest/rape/abuse history, so his behavior, while illogical and irrational, is very understandable.

    What?

  13. VOIP: The sissy fetish is not the same as drag. It’s this horrible fucked up tangle of wanting women to “force” you to wear women’s clothing and then humiliate you for it, because being feminine is so shameful and dirty, while maintaining that this doesn’t mean being a woman is shameful. Somehow, humiliating people for being feminine doesn’t mean you consider femininity to be humiliating.

    Disclaimer: It’s probably possible to act on fantasies of being forced to act as if you were trans without being transphobic and/or misogynistic.
    Caveat: the sissy fetish culture as seen on the internet does not acheive that.

  14. Argenti Aertheri

    Re: NWO’s “mommy issues” — afaik, he’s just never mentioned her, so for all we know his “mommy issue” is that she died while he was young or something. NWO = fucked up, he’s made that quite plain to see, no need to speculate as to why he’s fucked up.

  15. ShadetheDruid

    I’ve been thinking about something actually, on the sexual interest/ponies issue (I think about weird shit all the time for no real reason, feel free to ignore me if you like :P ): is it, or should it, really be considered bestiality if a creature is sapient, even if the creature is (what we would consider) animal-shaped?

    I mean, the general distinction is the “ickyness” factor, but since we try not to base things on that but rather on consent, and obviously a sapient pony could consent, would that change things?

    Most people would still call it bestiality because the creature is animal-shaped and therefore they’d be squicked out by it, and people are squicked out by a lot of things that aren’t harmful (and then, of course, they base their bigotry on it). Calling sex with a sapient pony “bestiality” strikes me as similar to calling “gay sex” whatever the derogatory-word-of-the-day is (sodomy, etc). Definition-wise you could say it’s correct, but the derogatory usage would sort of override that.

    Of course, since humans are the only sapient creatures we know of in the real world, this situation isn’t likely to come up outside of fiction. :P

    This post by me was brought to you by the number 5, and the letters W, T and F.

  16. VOIP: The sissy fetish is not the same as drag.

    Wow, I had no idea. Interesting.

    is it, or should it, really be considered bestiality if a creature is sapient, even if the creature is (what we would consider) animal-shaped?

    If it has a mind, I don’t think fucking it would be wrong. In fact, I’m not squicked out by the thought at all.. I do, however, watch a lot of sci fi.

  17. Argenti Aertheri

    Shade — I’m just going to pretend you said aliens there, because I’ve already pondered that one (Jack Harkness) — I’d say you’d have to be incredibly clear on what you mean, and what that means to your species, but yeah, I think workable consent could happen. I’d just be very very wary of taking any definitions as assumed. Also, you’d need to be damned clear on you safe-words, what will injure your species, wtf anatomy is present — that last one maybe less so with other mammals, since it isn’t that different, but aliens = who the fuck knows. (And that last clause? That’s why I love Doctor Who, because “who the fuck knows” is my preferred take on the universe)

    This reply brought to you by the number 24+ and the letters DW, because I’ve been awake too long, and Doctor Who.

  18. Re: NWO’s “mommy issues” — afaik, he’s just never mentioned her, so for all we know his “mommy issue” is that she died while he was young or something. NWO = fucked up, he’s made that quite plain to see, no need to speculate as to why he’s fucked up.

    Yeah, I have no idea how Nanasha got from “This dude is a massive tool” to “Therefore, he was raped by his mom.”

  19. Like, the world is full of angry old white men, Nansha, it’s called “Fox News’s principal demographic.”

  20. Argenti Aertheri

    “This dude is a massive tool” and thank you for reminding me that exists, I got bored with the text backstory and gave up.

  21. ShadetheDruid

    If it has a mind, I don’t think fucking it would be wrong. In fact, I’m not squicked out by the thought at all.. I do, however, watch a lot of sci fi. – VoIP

    Yeah, that was my thought process too. Also, yay sci fi. :D

    Just seems like a natural evolution of the concept of consent, even if there’s no actual real-world application for it. Well, apart from relating to prejudice vs people with fetishes for sapient ponies living in a fictional universe (or should that be ponyverse?), furries, etc.

    Though I was thinking more of mythology than sci fi, since there’s a lot of concepts there that would make this issue even more complex, like all of the half-human, half-animal creatures. Personally, sapient ponies aren’t my thing, but a centaur woman on the other hand.. it’s probably not going to bother me that she has the body of a horse (apart from in practical ways, obviously).

    Argenti: I did think of aliens as well, though I decided to make my post relevant to the topic so I stuck to sapient animals. :P Though there’s also the issue that the average person isn’t going to see sex with a humanoid alien as bestiality, despite them being a different species.

    At that point you’d probably get (actually, i’d say it’s probably guaranteed) people being judgey and insulting to people who like the ponies while considering, say, an Asari from Mass Effect to be super hot.

    I guess what I was getting at is I don’t see a way of describing sex with a sapient animal as “bestiality” without it being insulting (to both the human and the sapient animal), considering the connotations the word has in everyday usage. Whether this is a huge deal or not, I have no idea, it just seems like something to think about if we’re going to go for the next step in acceptance for people’s preferences.

  22. You don’t have to worry about insulting the sapient animals. They don’t exist.

  23. ShadetheDruid

    I’m pretty sure that’s obvious. Do we need a /hypothetical tag to go with the /sarcasm tag now?

  24. I’m not at all squicked out by the actual wanking to cartoon horses — who the fuck cares? What can make me uncomfortable is that it sometimes seems like little girls can’t have anything without somebody else making it all about sex. Like they’re little sex-objects-in-training, and we need to make them understand what that role requires as early as possible.

    But again, if people aren’t actually making the show itself more overtly sexual, or otherwise changing the watching experience for the young viewers, I have nothing to complain about because nothing bad is happening. I’m wrapping it all up in my head with purity balls and a million other things, but those things are different.

  25. @Viscaria

    This is what gets me about the MRA bronies. It’s like they saw something that was designed for little girls so they just had to make it theirs. And, I’ll be honest, it seems like (this guy or similar MRA bronies) are just saying they whack off to it in order to make it something that’s especially *not* suitable for little girls.

    Obviously this suspicion doesn’t apply to other bronies, pegasisters, or non-binary-sentient-horse-aficionados, or any of the people who do whack off to it but are content not to tell the entire internet about it. Hell, I’ve liked loads of programmes I’m supposed to be too old for… it’s just that with the MRA ones it does seem to be this desire to make anything about/for girls to be all about them.

  26. captainbathrobe

    You know, there are plenty of people who have been victims of sexual or physical abuse who are not total NWO-level asshats. I’m thinking his asshattery is adequately explained by his…being an asshat. There’s no need to speculate about abuse.

  27. Plus NWO obviously has rape trauma and other fucked up mom-incest/rape/abuse history, so his behavior, while illogical and irrational, is very understandable.

    WHAT THE FUCK? I think NWO is disgusting and I have no idea what made him that way, and I’m not going to speculate out my ass about it.

    If he wants to tell us why he’s awful that’s his business. Save the internet diagnoses.

  28. @Argenti- NWO has specifically mentioned several times on various threads about how his “feminist mother” basically prostituted him out to her feminist friends for sex and sexually abused him as well. He uses this as justification for why TEH FEMINIZTZ are EBILS.

    Of course, he *could* be making this up, but I like to try and believe it when someone comes out as a victim of abuse because I know exactly how people treated me when one of my exes raped me in a “non-traditional” way and all I got was skepticism and denial from friends. :(

  29. That wasn’t NWO. That was AntZ.

  30. Nanasha– I think you may be confusing NWO with Toysoldier.

  31. @Nanasha

    @Argenti- NWO has specifically mentioned several times on various threads about how his “feminist mother” basically prostituted him out to her feminist friends for sex and sexually abused him as well. He uses this as justification for why TEH FEMINIZTZ are EBILS.

    I think you are mistaking nwoslave for… Toysoldier, maybe? Nwoslave has never said that.

  32. Right, Antz, not Toysoldier, thanks Hellkell.

  33. Myoo, you’re welcome. Now I should get some useful knowledge in my head.

  34. Nanasha – I think you’re confusing NWO and Zarat. I believe that was Zarat who said that, we told him he should probably get counselling for it and he hasn’t been back since.

  35. @aworldanonymous
    “So what you’re saying is that gender is predetermined by sex, and that socialization has absolutely nothing to do with it?

    My god man, how dense are you, I’m just out of high school and I know that genetic determinism is bullshit.”

    I have every culture throughout all of history to back me up. How is it possible that every culture in all of history has been socialized when up until recently they’ve been largely seperated? You can hop on a plane to china today and be there pretty darn quick. The wright bros first flight was in 1903. So even a 100 years ago it took a huge amount of time. How about a thousand years ago?

    If every culture everywhere in all of history we can clearly see women being more emotional, how can it be socialized? How could every culture show men and women as being different in the same way when they where completely seperated?

    A thousand years ago for the average person living a France, Japan was a fairy tale, so was India. It might as well not even existed. Yet when you read actual first hand accounts of men and women in each of these cultures, men and women each acted differently according to their gender.

    How is it possible that the exact same socialization took place 2000 years ago in France, Japan and India? Anywhere that has first hand written records in all history show men and women as acting identically different. You’re telling me this is socialization?

  36. I may once have written porn involving an AI in a human-sized scorpion-shaped body, and a human. I’d have written straight-up scorpion porn, but the AI was the easiest way to explain why the scorpion was made of glass.
    (I asked friends of mine for writing prompts, so it’s very nearly almost not my fault.)

    If there were sapient nonhumans I don’t think there would be anything wrong with informed-consensual and mutually enjoyable sex. It’s just body shape. None of the shapes of human body prohibit sex with other humans*, so why should nonhuman shapes be out of bounds, if they contain people capable of informed consent?

    *Children can’t consent because of the development of their minds, not the size of their bodies.

  37. @Viscaria & TheNatFantastic

    This is why a lot of the MLP fandom isn’t really in favour of the clop side of things. There are a good number of us who enjoy the show as it is and don’t feel the need to “make it ours” by sexualizing everything in it. So we resent those who do, because they’re essentially ruining the very idea of the show.

  38. @aworldanonymous

    I kind of see what you mean, but I’d disagree (with my interpretation of what you just said) insomuch as I really don’t give a toss (sorry) if someone wants to masturbate to it because they want to, but the MRA guys seem to only be saying it in order to make the point that it is ‘theirs’. Like, I don’t want to police anyone’s desires, if they’re honest – but I do want to speak out against MRAs vindictively trying to ruin something for the people it’s aimed at.

    Sorry if that doesn’t make sense, I’m really tired.

  39. @ TheNatFantastic

    That’s exactly the point I was trying to get at, I’ve got nothing against clop itself, it’s just a variety of porn. It’s the motives behind a large portion of it that I’m opposed to, I rarely see clop that isn’t vindictively trying to ruin MLP for the people it’s aimed at.

  40. I feel this discussion has been interesting. :D Now i’m just waiting for Mr Owl “Wave My Penis At Kids” Slave to come along and tell us we’re all disgusting.

  41. Wow, Nanasha tried to ask why men are into sissification and tried to look for unfortunate implications in the fantasy, and she got slapped down by the sex-positives. I’m not complaining, though. I don’t want to interrogate my fantasies for wicked thoughts.

  42. Yo, Scrapemind – I’ve seen you on the other threads. Stop hanging around trying to stir up trouble. If there is a disagreement it’s not going to come from you ‘noticing’ something and trying to pit people against each other. You vastly overestimate yourself. Now toddle along.

  43. @Scrapemind

    I know you think you’re a brilliant strategist, in the style of maybe Gary Kasparov, or Napoleon. But trying to manipulate people like that only really works on TV. I’m sorry that you can’t live out your power fantasy but that’s real life for you.

  44. Wow, scrapemind tried to stir up shit again and got told to shut it by the regulars. I’m not complaining though. I don’t really care to see any of the other bullshit zie might write.

  45. @Nanasha, your thing about NWO was fucked up, even setting aside the confusion with toysoldier/Antz. Using someone’s being the victim of abuse or molestation as a weapon in unrelated conversations is a totally fucked up thing to do. It’s not acceptable behavior. I’ve spoken on other threads about how I was the victim of abuse and incestuous molestation, and if someone tried to bring that up as evidence that I hate all men or to internet diagnose me, I would hope people would point out to them how this is fucked up.

  46. Wow, Nanasha tried to ask why men are into sissification and tried to look for unfortunate implications in the fantasy, and she got slapped down by the sex-positives. I’m not complaining, though. I don’t want to interrogate my fantasies for wicked thoughts.

    this is some sad ass attention seeking shit

  47. @darksidecat – so it is completely unreasonable to think that perhaps unexamined hatred and bigotry being repressed and coming out via intense backlash against anything that challenges existing power structures may have its roots in abuse and indoctrination into dominant privilege structures?

    I admit I misspoke when I attributed Antz’s story to NWO but it still does not invalidate the fact that other posters were calling him out about “secretly” wanting to fill female roles. It is like the violent homophobe who is also a secret homosexual or the horrible racist who is half POC. Internalizing self hatred for desiring non traditional roles or behaviors is common in people lile this.

    Notice also that I explicitly said that this does not excuse his behavior one bit.

  48. Nanasha seriously?

    Some men are into the “sissification” kink like how some women are into being dominated/humiliated, and yeah people do find it “hot and shit” even if you don’t. Both play into society norms but I don’t see why you would target that kink alone because there is a lot of problematic kinks. No one is doing that because that’s the only way they can play out their fantasy, that is their fantasy. I don’t really understand whats with all the kink hate in this thread. -_-

  49. @Jumbofisch

    Are you including me in that? Just because I’m aware I don’t always express myself very well. My comments were supposed to be pro-kink/anti-MRA, and I’m sorry if I mangled my meaning.

  50. Nanasha, it’s not unreasonable to think that per se, it’s unreasonable as shit to claim that’s what NWO’s problem is. In other words, keep it to yourself because you don’t know, and you look ignorant speculating.

  51. There are a good number of us who enjoy the show as it is and don’t feel the need to “make it ours” by sexualizing everything in it. So we resent those who do, because they’re essentially ruining the very idea of the show.

    That’s basically why I mentioned the “clopping.” I don’t care if people want to masturbate to cartoon ponies. It just seems that a lot of Bronies turn every discussion into “hey my penis likes this,” the way so many Redditors do every time, say, someone posts a picture of a woman doing anything at all on Reddit. We don’t need to hear your penis’ opinions about everything, dudes.

  52. I don’t have any problem with “clopping” any more than I have a problem with other porn based on children’s material (Harry Potter anyone?), as long as the people into it make damn sure a kid who doesn’t want to see it couldn’t stumble across it by accident. (In that way, MLP porn might actually be more ethical than Harry Potter– the target audience of MLP is *far* less likely to be using the Internet without supervision.)

    I think, if the subject of sex with sapient non-humans comes up, we should invent a non-bestiality term for it. Xenophilia, maybe?

    I think it’s possible to *simultaneously* believe that sissification is a perfectly awesome kink that many people enjoy and there’s nothing wrong with that, and also that it’s probably an outcome of a misogynistic society and many of the people who are into it are into it in a somewhat problematic way. Also, sissification and crossdressing aren’t the same thing.

  53. Opps no I wasn’t referring to you nat, the other kink shaming thing was earlier in the thread.

  54. Cool, I just get paranoid that I’d messed up. Figured it was better to ask :)

  55. I think it’s possible to *simultaneously* believe that sissification is a perfectly awesome kink that many people enjoy and there’s nothing wrong with that, and also that it’s probably an outcome of a misogynistic society and many of the people who are into it are into it in a somewhat problematic way. Also, sissification and crossdressing aren’t the same thing.

    I’m with Ozy on this one. I’ve seen sissification done decently at parties where the dude is just having fun being super pink and sparkly, and sissification where I wanted to tie them to a chair and force them to read Feministe for a week. :P

    A lot of kinks have the same problematic elements as the larger culture, and you can both be kink-positive and critique these underlying problems.

  56. Ozymandias: From the world of LARP, I offer you “speciesqueer”.

  57. so it is completely unreasonable to think that perhaps unexamined hatred and bigotry being repressed and coming out via intense backlash against anything that challenges existing power structures may have its roots in abuse and indoctrination into dominant privilege structures?

    IT IS NEVER OKAY TO USE A PERSON’S DISCLOSURE OF HAVING BEEN MOLESTED, RAPED, OR ABUSED AS A CHEAP WEAPON AGAINST THEM. IT IS NEVER OKAY.

    I don’t give a fuck about your pet theory of NWOrigins, I really don’t. I am pissed off by the fact that you tried to throw someone being molested, raped, abused, etc. in their face to make a cheap point. I have had this done to me around my gender, sexuality, politics, etc. and it’s hurtful, dismissive, and cruel. It makes people afraid to disclose or share their history out of worry it will be constantly thrown in their face and used against them, it can be triggering to have others bring it up out of the blue, and it is just plain hurtful.

  58. How is it possible that the exact same socialization took place 2000 years ago in France, Japan and India? Anywhere that has first hand written records in all history show men and women as acting identically different.

    NWO, how can something be “identically different?” Plz explain to my poor ladybrain.

    You do realize history is written by people, and that majority of people writing history has been men, right?

  59. Leaving aside for the moment the awkwardness of the phrase “identically different,” there are both historians and anthropologists paying attention to this blog who can address the question of whether all cultures demonstrate the exact same roles for men and women throughout history. I hope they will. I mean, I could try, but it would be embarrassingly amateurish.
    And why limit it only to societies/cultures with a written history?

  60. @cloudiah *ahem* *puts on Helpful Neighborhood Anthropologist Hat* While most cultures of which we have written record do have many roles broken down by gender, and in many cases the nature of those gender roles do leave women with less access to power, this is neither universal, nor universally expressed.

    For example- In Ptolomeian (sp?) Egypt, women commonly owned property, had divorce rights, and many of the dynasty’s most powerful rulers were female. Compare that with contemporary Roman society, where women were traded like chattel, and only Vestal Virgins had freedom of movement.

    For another example- Among the Trobriand Islanders, sex before marriage was common and normative, as was divorce. They also thought kissing was gross :D

    Lots of other examples available upon request, but those were the two I could think of off the top of my head.

  61. Part of the issue re: gender roles is that (as has been mentioned upthread) most historians and anthropologists have been male, or operated under a patriarchal model. Many male anthropologists, for example, have had difficulty gaining access to women’s rituals and bonding experiences when studying them in the field, while women have had better access to the rituals of all members of the community. There are some great ethnographies where multiple anthropologists, both male and female, have studied communities at different times, and come to radically different conclusions about gender roles and power in those communities.

  62. See, for example, Malinowski’s extensive writing on the (male dominated) kula exchange in the Trobriand Islands, and Annette Weiner’s later look at (female dominated) funeral exchanges of skirts and banana leaf bundles. Both of these rituals have both economic and ritual importance to Trobriand society, but Malinowski completely ignored the importance of female exchange patterns because he was locked into a patriarchal way of thinking.

    Weiner’s book is called Women of Value, Men of Renown.

    Now I promise I’m shutting up about feminist interpretations of ethnographic theory.

  63. Now I promise I’m shutting up about feminist interpretations of ethnographic theory.

    You’re more than welcome to keep going as far as I’m concerned.

  64. Thanks, David. You did a better job of making the point I was trying to make. Kink in and of itself is not necessarily problematic but how it often manifests absolutely IS. If we are willing to be critical to the manboobz we also have to be critical to ourselves.

    And, by the way daeksidecat, I was not minimizing or attempting to explain away his behavior by calling out abuse. However, we must also realize that even the trolls are human and are just as likely to have had fucked up things happen to them that influences their perceptions and interactions. I find it funny that you find it perfectly ok to lambast someone for poor behavior until it becomes possible that person might possibly act that way for a reason that serives directly from abuse and sexist indoctrination.

    As an abuse and rape survivor, I take these topics very seriously. And I find that atteepts to silence honest conversation about abuse and rape are nott conducive to good dialogue and understanding. It is your right to feel offended and triggered, but you already knew that this is a probability on this site (see the disclaimer at the top). You have the right to ignore me, disagree, even turn off your computer, but it is NOT your right to tell me what I can and cannot say or how I should express myself.

    Thiis is yet another situation where I wish people could just beam understanding to one another. No matter how I attempt to phrase my thoughts in a respectful and inclusive way, it still manages to raise a wide swath of ire.

  65. @M Dubz

    I am seconding Dracula’s interest in this topic.

  66. M Dubz, I’d like to hear more too. Beats reading Nanasha and the point missing each other over and over.

  67. Thirding Drac’s interest.

    Molly: I think it’s… telling… that there isn’t a kink (at least, that I’m aware of) for dressing women up in stereotypically male clothing to humiliate them. Also, I think a lot of it comes down to mindset? Sissification is a *very different* thing if you’re aware that dressing like a feminine woman isn’t actually humiliating in real life.

    Viola: I would assume that “speciesqueer” is, a la genderqueer, related to species identification. I’m still backing “xenophile.” :P

  68. I like how NWO’s latest argument is that France, India, and Japan have identical cultures.

  69. Cliff: Identically different, no less.

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