The wit and wisdom of the guy who created that “beat up Anita Sarkeesian” game
Yesterday I wrote about a vile online game in which players were invited to “beat up Anita Sarkeesian,” the feminist cultural critic who’s faced endless harassment because she had the temerity to ask for donations to fund a video project looking at sexist tropes in video games.
The game, which (happily) has been removed from Newgrounds.com, where it was originally posted, was put together by a young Canadian gamer named Bendilin Spurr. On the game’s page, he offered this explanation as to why he created the game:
Anita Sarkeesian has not only scammed thousands of people out of over $160,000, but also uses the excuse that she is a woman to get away with whatever she damn well pleases. Any form of constructive criticism, even from fellow women, is either ignored or labelled to be sexist against her.
She claims to want gender equality in video games, but in reality, she just wants to use the fact that she was born with a vagina to get free money and sympathy from everyone who crosses her path.
That doesn’t really explain much, as asking people for voluntary donations to a video project is a far cry from “scamming,” especially since she’d asked for far less, and that the misogynist backlash to her project began long before she’d collected anywhere near this amount.
It also doesn’t quite explain why Bendilin felt that a Sarkessian-punching game was the best format to make this, er, critique.
Last night, after learning from the comments here that young Bendilin had a profile on Steam and a Twitter account, I decided to peruse both to see if I could find more clues that might explain his foul game.
On his Steam profile, he’s set forth his basic philosophy of life, video games, and how much women suck:
I think it’s just adorable how absolutely no girls are any good at video games, just like how no woman has ever written a good novel. They are nothing but talk and no action, probably because girls are such emotional creatures and base everything they do on their current feelings and then try to rationalize their actions later. How pathetic.
You know what’s priceless? When a gamer girl posts a pic of herself looking as slutty as possible and then throws a fake fit when people talk to her like she’s a whore. What did you think was going to happen, you dumb broad? Lose thirty pounds.
Sadly, these aren’t terribly rare or original opinions for a young male gamer.
Over on Twitter, Bendilin has offered a number of conflicting explanations for why he felt so much hostility for Sarkeesian and her video project that he felt justified in creating a video game devoted to punching her in the face.
There’s the fiscal argument:
There’s the laziness argument:
There’s the rather strange argument that Sarkeesian is not taking the proper time to research the subject, although she has not yet started the project. (Also, one of the reasons she was asking for money was so that she could take the time to research the subject properly.)
The “nuh-uh you’re wrong” argument:
The “she won’t listen to me argument.” Part one: The Lego Incident
And Part 2, in which our hero explains that making a video game about punching someone in the face is a great way to open a dialogue with them:
Naturally, Bendilin, like most misogynists, fervently denies that he’s a misogynist:
Yep, that’s right. The guy whose Steam profile claims that “absolutely no girls are any good at video games” and that “no woman has ever written a good novel,” and who decided to express his criticism for a video project that hasn’t even started by making a video game in which players punch the woman behind it in the face, is angry that anyone might conclude that he hates women.
Well, Bendilin, if you wanted to defend video games and the gaming community at large from charges of sexism, you’ve done a bang-up job of it.
UPDATE: Bendilin is also an artist! Here, Virgil Texas takes a look at Bendilin’s erotically charged Sonic the Hedgehog art.
That last paragraph and the update contained
Posted on July 8, 2012, in antifeminism, bullying, harassment, irony alert, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, narcissism, oppressed men, pussy pass, vaginas, violence. Bookmark the permalink. 1,286 Comments.
VoIP, do your secondary sources rhyme with “boogle”? Because that would kinda shut down my cheerleading thing here (which, btw, is totally a sport).
The deadliest conflict ever was probably the Taiping Rebellion. But only half of the participants in that conflict conscripted. The Taiping rebels were conscripted, but the Imperial Chinese army was not (the ethnic Chinese army at the time didn’t conscript and the ethnic Manchu army seems not to have; rather, military service was quasi-hereditary)
No, they rhyme with “kook,” like our friend Steele here, and…um…panuscripts….in hagazines. Yes, hagazines, that’s it.
Oh dear. VoIP, Cloudiah, Unimaginative, KirbyWarp, et al. You guys seriously win the Noble Prize for Best Troll Beat Down. I would seriuosly buy you all drinks (or cake) if I knew you in person. :)
@VoIP:
I’m pretty sure “kook” rhymes with “fluke,” or what Steele believes every case of woman-hatred is.
Well, Google is how he finds information, so why would anyone look anywhere else?
Google and anecdotes, which are very important and can be used to prove many things as long as they’re his anecdotes.
Also other people’s anecdotes can sometimes be used to prove things, as long as you consider the other person’s interpretation of events to be irrelevant. I mean, they were only there at the time, whereas you have a Theory of Misandry.
If I went rock climbing they’d be cragazines
when I’m hunting they’re stagazines
if I’m behind in my schedule they’re lagazines
pack them for delivery we’ve got bagazines
if they bug me they’re nagazines
You’re very sweet Fembot, but I contributed nothing but snark. But [looks down somberly] let us never forget that Kirbywarp gave his life for us all tonight. [Pours one out for Kirbywarp] Kirbywarp is dead. LONG LIVE KIRBYWARP!
*lies underneath liquid being poured out*
*glug glug glug*
*burp*
*pats stomach*
:D
I’d take some cake. Can’t eat it until next week, but I really like cake. Also sandwiches. Cloudiah, are the funeral sandwiches going to be Muffaletta? Because I made some from a recipe book, and it was delicious, but I’ve never been to New Orleans for the genuine thing.
Also, I seem to be kind of manic this evening. I blame the heat.
no the relevant part is was he drafted
when a dog is happy she reads wagazines
if it’s all about the lulz we publish gagazines
Wiccans frequently edit hagazines
feminists write their articles in vagazines
“You’re it!” I cry in tagazines
if they’re corrupted on a computer, they’re fragazines
when they go really fast, they’re dragazines
really boastful ones are bragazines
when i have to do my homework but don’t want to they’re a bit of a dragazine
[cloudiah wearily heads down to the wine cellar*] This is going to be a long night.
*Quite a trick, since she lives in a small apartment.
Oh, look at that. A word with two meanings. MISANDRY!
we boast of our country in flagazines
my fish-hooks get caught up in snagazines
it’s hard to read straight in zig-zagazines
i store my supplies in bookbagazines
and misandry just don’t real in dagazines
When I get it on I read shagazines,
but when I fall behind then they’re lagazines.
@Unimaginative:
Transvestites like to dress up in dragazines
Three meanings! SUPER-MISANDRY!
Jonathan was looking forward to his wedding to Michael. Frankly, he had no idea he could be this happy. It was good enough to get the hell out of his small Midwestern town for a place where people didn’t assume that for him, love was a vice, “just a sin like the sins everyone has to struggle with,” as though X’s shoplifting and Y’s venality were the functional equivalent of the first time he caught sight of a man across a crowded room and tears started in his eyes at the fact that God’s vast and shining earth could be so fantastic sometimes.
You know, leaving the fuckers who would deny him that kind of joy was awesome enough, but as for falling in love? Get out of here! But, his first week in Manhattan he met a computer programmer in a Starbucks, and one thing led to another, and things were going well, and then they were going great, and then..The Question.
His only lingering doubt? What to read.
[David, feel free to delete this if you think it's bigoted. I have friends who refer to themselves as that, but the word is not mine to use and govern, and if I was out of line, please get rid of it as soon as possible.]
@VoIP:
erm… *stab in the dark* congratulations?
WOW, Undead Kirby has, like, superpowers!
Ah. This was not in fact a sort of self-biography then. I see.
…
Still rather confused. Perhaps it is bed time.
What do the happy couple read?
VoIP, I’d been wondering how to frame that one myself without being over the line. I enjoyed your story.
@VoIP:
Goedel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid?
A periodical about tattered clothing is a ragazine.
A military lawyer reads a jagazine.
Maybe the computer programmer does, but Jonathan’s a fan of the really pulpy sci-fi. Like, from the 70s where everything’s probably a metaphor for drugs.
@VoIP:
Ah, I see. Hmm… That’s much more interesting that what the smokers from England are reading. ;)
MORE misandry! My god, your powers keep growing!!!
Strike me down, and I shall become more misandric than you could possibly imagine!
HooziewhatsisthefuckNINE HUNDRED POSTS?! There’s got to be some weapons-grade assholery in there somewhere. Like this guy Steele.
Help us, Kirby-Wan Kenobi. You’re our only hope.
@teirisias:
Weapons-grade tedium, really. 900 posts to clarify that he’s talking about one thing that everyone agrees happens, while complaining that we don’t use the same word he’s using (one which also refers to a thing that we don’t agree happens) and furthermore resolutely refusing to talk about the thing we actually disagree on.
And calling me a sack of shit. That too.
Hey, we’ve topped a thousand before.
@Steele
Captain Bathrobe- Personally, I condemn instances of bullying, abuse, and harassment equally, wherever I see it. I don’t consider some people (and I’m expressing the implication here) as “more deserving” of bullying, abuse, and harassment. Likewise, I don’t think that bullying, abuse, and harassment is “less bad” depending on the source of the bullying, abuse and harassment.
You’re expressing what implication? My implication? I wasn’t talking about bullying, abuse, or harassment, but rather…oh, I don’t know…unpleasantness, perhaps? Some young men met with unpleasantness from women when they tried to take women’s studies classes. Essentially, they were given the cold shoulder by maybe a few women out of a lecture class of about 100; perhaps these men also overheard the occasional snarky comment or unfair generalization directed at men. Unfortunate, but still not a tragedy. Besides, the professors were fairly welcoming of men. How does any of that remotely constitute bullying, abuse, or harassment? It’s unfortunate that some female students were less than welcoming, but I can assure you, as one of those men who were occasionally made to feel less than welcome, I got over it. Rather quickly, in fact. Now, if a professor had been less than welcoming, that would have been another matter, but that didn’t happen. Interpersonal unpleasantness is unpleasant, but it’s hardly something worth whining about on the internet. Your mileage may vary.
And, besides, the source of bullying and harassment (which isn’t really what I was talking about, but let’s assume for a moment that it was) has everything to do with how it’s experienced. Being harassed or bullied by a random person of no particular stature or authority is bad enough; being harassed or bullied by a person in authority, such as a professor or police officer, would be infinitely worse, since such a person is more likely to be able to bully and harass with impunity. On the other hand, a person in authority who attempts to quash bullying or harassment can greatly minimize the damage it does to the bullied and harassed. Of course, I wasn’t really talking about bullying and harassment, so the point is moot. If you feel that being given the occasional cold shoulder by classmates who otherwise have no power over our lives is a proper rallying point for a social movement, then be my guest. The rest of us will occupy ourselves elsewhere.
@captainbathrobe:
Oh, did he decide to read horrible things into your anecdote as well? Surprise, surprise.
And the Vietnam thing.
Terry Pratchett’s dwarves read gragazines,
If you read them after flying they’re jetlagazines,
Kids on playgrounds like to play with tagazines,
For advice on smelting metal, I read slagazines,
In pants that are loose they’re sagazines.
On the (sort of) bright side, at least your anecdotes happened. It’s interesting how when men (or people he perceives as men) tell him stories, he is willing to acknowledge that the things in question happened in some form, though as evil feminist manginas you are obviously interpreting those events all wrong, but when women (or people he perceives as women) tell him stories, he just ignores their comments altogether.
Actually most misogynists will gladly admit there hatred towards women on the internet, I did say most not all but then is his how we conduct law? He is because he denies he is? Was it those pictures that did it for you? Excuse me for I did not know you where qualified for this line of work Doctor.
This article was just as weak as the game itself, you hand-picked the shit out of his twitter comments and then didn’t even follow up with any evidence you just wrote “This is what I think because there’s so many other smiler cases.”
Also that steam thing is supposedly satire but nobody cares, I’m not changing any minds with this because we all chose our sides just remember I said that we have no proof he hates women just like I have no proof he doesn’t. Now call me misogynist because I refuse to hate someone with no valid reasons to hate said person. I dislike said person and I will hate him when you give me actual evidence. TFVOR
Nah, I’m just gonna call you an idiot for not seeing what’s right before your eyes.
ಠ__ಠ
Won’t anybody talk about the institutional discrimination against yellow-haired people? The… malliakitrinodry! (kitrino=yellow in Greek, mallia=hair) kitrinody?
Now I just need to find someone who use this word, in any context, even fiction, and maybe find another anecdota and my work will be complete.
OK, can someone please explain to me why there’s such a strong connection between sexism and shitty grammar?
Well that’s another 300 pages i’m not going to read. @.@ Unless there’s something I missed that was awesome?
Sorry I’m late, I got absorbed by a quagazine.
…All the good ones were taken, okay?
@ CassandraSays – because of misandric English teachers, I guess.
Poor Kirby’s ghast has been flabbered. Snark in Peace, Kirbywarp :(
Just reading through the zillion comments from overnight. Its just surreal…..
All I keep thinking is the kind of joking I’ve seen go on between guys at work, guys who are my friends…and the jokes often have some very sharp edges. And they happily sling the insults and jokes back and forth. Its jokes and insults you wouldn’t hear between female friends and would be percieved as mean by women. Every once in a while, you’ll notice a guy who doesn’t participate as much, that’s probably the guy who is bothered. And the other guys will lay off.
I’ve asked why guys do this…I was told that this is just how they bond. Nothings meant by the cruelty and one upmanship of the joking and every guy expects a zinger right back.
Obviously not all men or boys are going to enjoy that kind of experience, and some of them might find it quite hurtful.
I have to say though…I find it doubtful that the teachers’ jokes even appraoched the kinds of joking that goes on between men some days.
Steele its okay to have been deeply hurt and to acknowledge that you were put off from pursuing an interest. Its not okay toi assume that every man and boy is going to have the same reaction or to blow up when other people (Kirby) says it doesn’t bother them.
“Well, yes, of course malliakitrinodry is certainly a thing free of context” — Dr. Unimaginative, Professor of Things Unrelated to Context
Go for it, Kyrie!
Here are my two favorite Steele quotes:
“I made no claim regarding institutional misandry.” 10:58.
“Well, we’ve sort of hit a wall here, because I don’t believe misogyny is all that pervasive, and I believe misandry is institutional.” 11:42.
This is some Heisenberg shit. We can acknowledge his position on misandry, and ask for evidence on his position, but not both at the same time.
Ahahahaha! Only Steele has had his dreams quashed by teachers. Oh noes!!!
Listen, when I was a kid, all I wanted to be was a great painter. I was told by my parents that there was no point because I’d starve.my brother was encouraged ( read given paints and tools and books and praise) to pursue the arts because graphic arts pays moderately well, but for me it was “just a hobby” I was really interested in Rennaissance painters and wanted to find some women painters as role models. I went to the library to research and there were NO WOMEN painters in any style to be found. (They do exist as I found out with Google many years later).
I went to art class, and continually found that the boys were given more time and attention by teachers who wanted to encourage their efforts. When I looked around, it was boys being given formal art tutoring, expensive between the cost of supplies and tuition. But their sisters who also wanted to take lessons? Sent to week long arts and crafts summer camps. Paint and clay and stone is for boys, and only men become great masters of art. And these are the only arts worth pursuing. Its never stopped me from drawing or painting.
Well, I did find a place where women are plentiful as role models. In the traditional arts of embroidery and weaving. True masters of artistic expression and a vast history of development. So that’s what I pursued. But guess what? No one teaches those arts in school, no womans name is ever mentioned for the glory of working with needle and thread, and almost no one knows how to teach those skills. Its a nearly dead art that very few mourn the passing of. I’ve been teaching myself for over thirty years, the techniques, the color theory, the fundementals of design and the history. Once I started embroidering people were willing to pay attention to my sketches, because now they’ll be put to an appropriate (feminine) use. When I started embroidering, my creativity was seen as having some merit, decorating the home. I sold my work to earn the money to continue buying the books I needed to learn and the supplies I needed to practice. I got paid a few diollars for each piece, because “its just a hobby” at craft fairs. Painters get paid a couple hundred dollars for moderately decent paintings at the local art galleries, and it probably takes them far fewer hours to complete.
I can do with needle and thread things men can do with paint and brush. My paintings are worth nothing in most peoples eyes, my embroidery is seen as better (because its a feminine hobby). But if I were to suggest to most folk that I pursue a true art form, I’d be laughed out of town.
Your teacher was full of shit Steele. And had you stopped to look around your local library it would have been blatently obvious. In fact, a great many female writers had to assume masculine pen names to get their works published, and because everyone thought they were male, their works became literary masterpieces.
I had to order books and supplies form overseas. I had to teach myself everything I know because people weren’t willing to waste time and resources on a girl. I had to sell my work and get a job to buy my own supplies and tools because what I do is “just a hobby” for decorating the house.
Where are the arts classes that teach the traditional arts of womens creativity? Where are the galleries that feature weaving, embroidery, quilting or lacemaking? Can you name even one woman who created a textile masterpiece? Do you even know the name of one style of embroidery? One technique for weaving? No?
One teacher treated you like shit Steele. And that sucks. I’ve had everyone in my life treat my work as inconsequential, time wasting, unduly expensive and unworthy of public notice. Unless of course, they want a pretty picture for their house, which I am expected to hand over free of charge. And this is the PREVALENT attitude towards women who want to pursue a career in the arts.
Things that are more interesting than “engaging” with Steele — researching when he’s actually not been posting. It seems his first appearance was July 7, 2012 at 4:22 pm (blog time), and he was around until 5:52 pm. Then took a ~6 hour break until 11:14 pm, and then a ~9 hour break until July 8, 2012 at 8:19 am. After a ~7 hour break he hit it off in this thread on July 8, 2012 at 3:09 pm, where he managed to cause 10 pages to appear before July 9, 2012 at 1:13 am. At which point he went away for ~10 hours, until July 9, 2012 at 11:32 am, and after another ~5 hour break he was back at 4:38 pm, and stayed until 11:56 pm.
In short, this is the longest he’s been gone since he got here — and either he doesn’t work/is on vacation, or doesn’t sleep; either that or he has some sort of dimensional portal that allows him to do both while posting here nearly non-stop for 10 hours. The All About Steele show is very boring, when it isn’t infuriating.
Snowy — “Is Steele a dalek?” — I don’t think a Dalek could go 10 hours without resorting to EXTERMINATE! (That dimensional portal could be a weeping angel quantum lock though…*shudder* keep watching him guys!)
And Kirby, you can’t be dead, you’re the impossible to kill character remember? Just puff up a few more times (or inhale an owl or something…omgs, please inhale Owly…)
Dracula:
The Great TS Debate alluded to upthread topped 1500. Believe me, it haunts me to this day.
VoIP: I was about to post some corrections about Antietam. You beat me to it.
The total dead for Antietam was about 3,700.
Anyone who says Vietnam was the costliest use of the Draft EVAH! has never looked at France, ca 1794-1815.
Oh we’re discussing arts now? Excellent derail!
I have no idea (besides “it’s girly”) why embroidery, lace-making, etc are not considered fine arts, they produce beautiful results — my studio art minor including sculpting a shoe out of wire, but no non-canvas fabric. I paint, and sew by hand, the former is definitely faster, and less painful, I don’t think I’ve ever even sort of injured myself painting, but I’ve definitely sewed my fingers to my fabric more than once (thimbles, I really must learn to tolerate them).
I’m pretty sure pecunium weaves btw. (And this “artist” is swooning at pillowinhell being a lace-maker, that’s just too lovely an art form to die out)
O HAI pecunium, I was typing that bit about thinking you weave while you were posting apparently. (This thread is beyond ridiculous, let’s derail it with art!)
I use embroidery to produce laces. I’ve tried tatting, but I need to see it being done..the books I have are not helping. I get the same results as crocheting..a big tangled mess!!!
Still, needle weaving, hardanger and even a simple button hole stitch can produce some very nice results.
I’d love to go to Venice, where they still produce gorgeous laces using bone bodkins!!!unbelievably fine, stunning work!!!
Also want to see Japan. And spend about a decade learning the traditional embroideries. I found a second hand Japanese embroidery book! Squeeeee! So excited to try it!! AND I found a local shop that sells silk embroidery supplies and will order anything I want!!!!!!!!
Re: Taiping Rebellion
Both sides did use conscription tactics. Taipings often went into villages to compel local people to serve. The Qing army , on the other hand, was pretty much all compulsory. Manchu noblemen served in the cavalry and the sharpshooter brigades as part of the requirements of their position, and most of their frontline infantry were Han conscripts. Most of the navies of both armies was simply stolen from private shipowners and repurposed.
However, the single most disastrous example of the draft was, by far, the Soviet Army in WWII. Universal conscription had been in effect since 1925, so there was no distinction whatsoever between volunteers and draftees. Soviet forces suffered approx. 9-10 million casaulties, beating out every other example of the draft in world history by a mile.
Steele, it you’re still reading, please, please try to make the case that Stalin’s USSR was institutionally misandrist. It would make you my most favorite troll ever.
Steele: Why, I’ll bet not one person on the forum has received a death threat for engaging in presumptuous denial of men’s experiences.
The fuck does that mean?
I’ve gotten death threats for speaking out about feminism. So, if I am parsing your general thrust, then yes, I have.
Next.
Now, if I started a major blog focused on men’s issues, you’re damn right I would expect a lot of bile. Death threats, and the like. From feminists.
Expect away. It’s not going to happen. I can pretty much guarantee no one is going to make a game of beating you up.
Do you think what happened to Anita is epically disgusting, since you think my teacher was “especially” disgusting?
Of course I do. Online harassment is never okay.
Then why, if it’s, “especially disgusting”, have you been saying it’s not such a big deal; certainly not worth our ire, because it’s, merely “whimsical”.
Do you often find especially disgusting things to be whimiscal?
VoIP, I’m not doing your research for you. Email a prominent MRA blogger. They likely keep quiet about it.
Nonsense. They have been known to take milder rhetoric, and say it’s an attempt to oppress them. More to the point, you made the claim. You have to defend it, that or accept her finding that no such actual threats took place. You can’t say, “I am sure they did, but they keep quiet about it,” and get any traction.
Any more than you would believe me if I told you Paul Elam secretly thinks women are being fucked over by the system and is trying to make the more actively misogynist men look like laughing stocks because he’s a closet feminist.
Go ahead, prove the negative.
I do not deny your experience. I’d ask that you extend to me the same courtesy, when I tell you I was emotionally damaged by a verbally abusive, misandrist female authority figure in similar (albeit probably more extreme) circumstances.
No one is denying your experience. They are disputing your conclusions.
It’s not that no one here will “admit” some men get screwed. It’s that when we do (for we have) you ignore it. The same way you ignored Kirby, and are ignoring VoIP (one death dude… you can do it…).
You don’t argue in good faith. You move goalposts, you say the examples of people who were doing things they said was exactly what you said didn’t happen don’t count and you can’t find one example of the plethora you say any man who speaks against feminism can expect.
Then you whine that no on agrees with you.
I can’t imagine why.
Ithiliana: Men as individuals can be horribly hurt–and the more they don’t fit the hegemonic masculine ideal, the more they can be hurt and harassed–and while mostly by men (gender policing is often done most intensively in the gender group),
Truth. I wear kilts. The only people who ever give me greif are males (usually in the 15-20 range). I stepped out of the house last week and a group of teens started to make fun of me. One of them going so far as to pretend he couldn’t keep his feet from the laughter. Telling them to go ahead and laugh, I didn’t care, pretty much shut them up.
I’m not in their peer group, and so they had no ability to influence me, and it stopped.
That sort of thing has been enlightening. It was harder when such people were, sort of, in my peer group, but there are advantages to having been non-conforming in a larger community, where I had outside sources of validation.
Steele: The people who ridiculed me weren’t.
They were feminists.
I’m going to hold you to the same burden of proof you demanded of Kirby (that seems fair, you established the burden, so it ought to apply to you as well).
Did you interview them? Did you ask them about their motives? Did you enquire as to the basis they used to intentionally ridicule you? Did they say that they were 1: feminists, and 2: it was feminism by which they justified ridiculing you because 3: you were male.
If you did all that (and got some records, because at this point I don’t really trust you all that much; with contact data) then you have a defensible claim that feminism induced some episodic misandry.
If you don’t… cool story bro.
Steele: And while you’re at it, asshole, you can go tell Toysoldier that his aunt raping him with a strap-on to “teach him a lesson” is “not misandry”. I read his post. I know how you minimized and mocked him. Disgusting.
Yanno, you could try reading the post(s) here, and seeing what was actually said. Because what he describes, and what happened aren’t quite the same (shades of Rashamon).
But, even if you did I can say that you aren’t likely to see any real difference, and that the level of intellectual impervium against nuance that you’ve displayed here would pretty much make it a wasted effort AND we’d have to rehash all that again, so perhaps it’s best that you won’t.
And of course- my writing skills perhaps aren’t great. This is unsurprising, considering I was forced away from the field because it was assumed I couldn’t cut it. The posters remarking over my writing ability are unwittingly making my case for me.
Nonsense. Any number of the posters here are self-taught in the craft of writing. Some others are university taught because they didn’t let the system refuse them. Saying that you were denied the chance to read, and to practice, that you needed some outside help to polish your craft… Ain’t gonna cut it. Some of the best writers I know are auto-didacts. They were pushed out of school, and they pushed on. I know men to whom that very thing happened.
Men who have been successful in writing, and editing. So it’s not “the system” bucko, it’s you.
Regardless of Toysoldier’s honesty- I do believe he is telling the truth about his rape, due to details he has provided that I won’t go into because it’s not my place.
That first sentence there… that’s your problem with argument. Toysoldier’s honsety can’t be disregarded. It’s central to the question. Again, no one here denied his rape. The whole thing about trying to persuade us that it’s true (with secret evidence no less) is a reading comprehension issue. No one here denies his rape. We deny it’s cause feminism.
No matter whether you believe there is systematic bigotry against men- you won’t even grant that this is an example of isolated misandrist actions?
Is it an action of an irrational hatred of men? Maybe. But misandry isn’t a systemic problem. What you (and Toysoldier, and every other person I’ve seen use the word) are trying to do is wedge isolated events, and make them a widespread problem. That’s what making Misandry and Misogyny equivalent terms does. It borrows the status of one (a pervasive problem in the larger culture) and imbues that into the other.
Since that isn’t the case with misandry we (or at least I) am not going to lend my imprimatur to the linguistic zeitgeist. And we (or at least I) will keep doing that, So will other sane people. Not my problem if you have a weird bugbear about it.
Magpie: Talking about draftees in Vietnam War, do you know if the Vietnamese were drafted, on either side?
Yes, on both sides. The N. had two drafts. one of locals in the South (to the Viet Cong) and in the N. into the NVA. Both were drafts, “for the duration.” N. Vietnam then decided the use of VC was problematic (they weren’t having quite the effect they wanted, and they were likely to be destabilising in the event of victory, as they would have demanded a larger say in the unification than the North wanted to give them) so they were used to launch the Tet Offensive, which wasn’t the style of fighting for which the VC were suited, as a result they were pretty much eliminated as an effective combat force, and reduced in numbers so that they weren’t going to be able to insist on a seat at the table when the war was won.
Steele: This is debatable. As an MRA, I think there’s ample evidence that misandry is institutional.
Ok, provide this ample evidence. Now we are looking outside of anectdata. Show me the men who were denied promotions; because they were men. Show me the men who were told they couldn’t compete in professional sports because they were men. Show me the colleges where the presidents said men can’t cut it in various disciplines because their little man-brains can’t hack the work.
Show me the ample evidence of institutional misandry.
Or shut the fuck up.
“So will other sane people.”
And at least this insane person.
I’m tempted to play Spot That Fallacy on Steele, but the shotgun argumentation is annoying long, and thus quite tedious — he’s definitely got that one (shotgun argumentation); goalpost shifting (oh the goalpost shifting!); shifting the burden of proof and proof the negative, both with the death threat thing; an argument from ignorance (and perhaps an actual ad hominem) with the attacks on kirbywarp; many cases of irrelevant conclusions and missing the point; argumentum ad populum with the appeal to the layman’s definition of misandry; an arrgument from fallacy with the claims of ad hominems.
That’s the list from memory, so I’m sure I’m missing some. I think his claim that kirbywarp’s teacher hated men, because she joked about girls not being inferior, is begging the question in the proper sense, but his argument is too flimsy for me to be sure.
Oh and Steele? I more or less taught myself logic, I’ve got a good friend with an English lit degree (male btw) but I’m fairly sure you wouldn’t count informal discussions as learning — if you do, please try to learn something from the critiques on your writing style.
pecunium — “We deny it’s cause feminism.” — ARGH! — It is because of feminism, or its cause is feminism? Either works, and thus that sentence is driving me slightly more nuts than is usual. (Claim you intentionally meant both and it was a play on words?)
arrgument from fallacy = argument from fallacy, I can type, I swear! >.<