About these ads

Working in the quote mine, going down down

“I’ve found another incredibly dopey statement from JohnTheOther!”

So our blabby friend JohnTheOther has an especially blabby piece up on A Voice for Men at the moment. Its ostensible subject: the pure eeeevil of unnamed anti-MRAs who misrepresent the World’s Greatest 21st Century Human Rights Movement –  the Men’s Rights Movement, that is – through the eeevil practice of “quote mining.”

I didn’t read the whole thing. Mr. TheOther is not what you’d call an efficient writer. Here are a few quotes mined from the article more or less at random that I think will give you a good idea of his, um, style:

Biology, or indeed, evolutionary theory is not really the topic of this discussion, rather it is provided here as example of a rhetorical practice increasingly common among opponents of a small but growing human rights movement. …

 The developing practice in opposition to human rights, of quote-mining goes beyond pathetic, into the realm of craven, futile depravity. …

However, it seems that no matter how many times it is explained that a thing formed from (bad) ideas – an ideology, and a group of people, identifiable by sex, are two distinct things, gender ideologues continue to conflate them. …

I don’t know if any of this makes any more sense in context, as I didn’t read the context. Let’s continue:

A year ago, I wrote an article focusing on the necessary public repudiation of violence, and the responsibility of open opposition to those who advocated or promoted a climate of acceptable violence, including those who openly advocate murder, such as a group of swedish feminists, and eugenics advocates on the squalid radical-hub. Statements from my original piece were quoted by at least one amoral zombie, and reframed to present my view as one which called for violence.

Of course, the author of those yellow pixels might not have realized that the original article, along with it’s unambiguous opposition to violence was posted on a site with substantially higher traffic than his own. The craven and stupid dishonesty of the quote-miner was apparent to all but a few, blinded by their own ideological goggles.

Oh, wait, I think those last two paragraphs were supposed to be about me. And I think they were supposed to refer to this post of mine, which took a look at a post of his that defended A Voice for Men’s “outing” of a group of Swedish feminists that the AVFM crew had decided, on the basis of a brief video promoting a theatrical production, were “murder advocates.” His post contained the following (unedited) paragraphs.

That’s right manboob, identifying a group of self-declared murder advocates to the public is more important than protecting those murder advocates from the consequences of advocating murder.

In the truth-is-fiction world of Futrelle’s mind, the men’s right advocates calling for public identification of a hate organization have been transmogrified into promoters of violence.

And what if they get killed David? What if rather than be arrested – as promoters of hate, and public advocates of murder, what if these depraved and murderous female supremacists come to harm at the hands of a citizen. If that happens, it will mean that a society’s system of law, designed to prevent hate organizations, and to allow redress of grievance through non violent due process is gone, wiped out by your ideology of violence and hate. That’s what you’re defending, David.

In my post, I quoted the final paragraph; here I have included the two preceding grafs to give it a bit more, what’s that word, context.

Of course, a couple of paragraphs by themselves are still kind of “out of context” I guess. Since I am pretty sure no one would like it if I simply pasted in the entire post from JtO here, I will instead direct you to his original post, here. You may make of it what you wish. I rather doubt that you will see it as a clearheaded treatise of nonviolence. Especially with that line: “And what if they get killed David?” (Which you can read in context above, or, again, in his original post. Let me link to it a sixth time here, just to make sure you know how to find his original words in context. Oops, that’s seven times now)

Interesting that a master debater of Mr. TheOther’s caliber somehow forgot to provide even one link to the controversy he was referring to, so people might be able to see for themselves what had happened, and judge his claims accordingly. I wonder why that might be?

I’ll skip the next bit in Mr. TheOther’s latest post, in which Mr.TheOther suggests that an opponent of his might have taken a quote of his out of context in a way that  makes him look racist and homophobic. But since he offers no links to the actual discussion, there’s no way of judging whether this particular quote-mining claim is true. (Perhaps this discussion on the Men’s Rights subreddit could shed some light on it?)

In any case, if we put this particular discussion in a broader, er, context, there is certainly ample evidence of homophobia amongst the A Voice for Men crowd, as I have pointed out here and here. (Protip: If you want to convince people you are not homophobic, you should probably not feature a video mocking “lesbo-bos” in the sidebar of the site you help to run.)

Anyway, this next bit of his definitely has something or other to do with me:

Bottom feeding quote miners indulging in snarky feats of futrelian deceit likely do win rhetorical brownie points, at least when seen through their own ideological goggles. But they are cementing their own a public persona which will wear about as comfortably as klan robes do at a NAACP meeting. The altered landscape this movement is building is not someday, it is now, and it is coming faster all the time.

Uh, dude, my last name has two L’s in it. It should be “Futrellian deceit.” If you’re going to turn my name into a slur, at least spell it correctly.

For individuals in opposition to human rights of men and boys now, whether through lying, repetition of old, false dogmas, or the craven tactic of mis-represented and mis-attributed meaning, the comfort of a formerly one-sided monologue is over. The public squirming we see in attempts to render MRA voices silent or apologetic will escalate before it abates. But that’s okay.

Hey, Mr. TheOther. If you really want to prove my “futrelian” or even my “Futrellian” deceit, how about this: provide specific examples of me taking something you or some other MRA has written out of context in a way that distorts its meaning.

For your convenience, you can find all the Man Boobz posts that reference you here and here.

And for anyone who now has the song “Working In the Coal Mine” stuck in their head, here’s the Lee Dorsey original:

About these ads

Posted on July 4, 2012, in a voice for men, antifeminism, grandiosity, homophobia, hypocrisy, johntheother, MGTOW, misandry, misogyny, MRA, music, video, worst writing in the history of the universe, YouTube. Bookmark the permalink. 164 Comments.

  1. Most men work in labor jobs that differ little from those miners, jobs that literally suck your life away. You never see them, but the the amenities you take for granted, they’re the people making it happen. Now ridicule away!!!

    Not ridiculing at all. But what is your solution to that, NWOSlave? Or is that the best you think life has to offer?

  2. Also, I understand that doing hard physical labor for decades takes a huge toll on the human body, and NWO might just be in pain and exhausted all of the time (and cranky). A man needs to be able to retire, and get decent, affordable health care, and spend his senior years building birdhouses and shit. I think it is sad that so many people can’t, but it’s not the fault of stay at home wives and mothers.

  3. So, going back to Ruby (I’m catching up here): Prisoners who are in prison for rape, child molestation, and incest have told me stories about being raped and molested as little boys.

    I have to wonder whether Ruby finds it, like, retroactively hilarious that these abusers were once young children who were raped? Does it matter that the extreme trauma of something like, oh say, being raped as a young child, can affect a person’s life in ways like that person being more likely to being abused in the future, more likely to become addicted, or more likely to be an abuser?

    I mean, I suspect I know the answers that a total piece of shit would give.

  4. NWO:

    I was the only one who could get my niece to eat dinner so every night that’s what I’d do. I taught all of them to play chess. A few times my vacation consisted of staying home and watching the kids, (they were considered all of our kids) while my sister went on vacation…There is not one day of work I wouldn’t trade for one day at home, ever…

    Thank you for your honest, respectful answer. It sounds like you had a lot of fun with your niece and nephews. That’s great. You may not believe this, but the Manboobzers like to see you happy. One of the things that really gets us about you is that you don’t seem to enjoy anything. I’m glad you enjoy this.

    Another thing I’d like to point out is that you obviously really enjoyed things that men aren’t “supposed to” enjoy in our culture, namely hanging out with kids, at home. That’s great! It’s OK that that’s what you like. It sounds like you really envy stay-at-home parents. I, on the other hand, enjoy working with my hands–my favorite job ever was in a paper factory.

    But the people who are fighting so other men can take care of children without feeling ashamed, and women can work in paper factories without being shunned, are feminists. MRAs are the ones who are trying to enforce a “one-size-fits-all” masculinity where men can’t stay home, even if they want to. They are working against the things that make you happy. I’m sorry that they’ve suckered you into supporting them.

    I’d like to ask you a few things, though. What did you do when the kids got sick? Did you stay up with them all night? If so, did you have to do anything important the next day? Did the tough decisions fall on you? Was this hard?

    Because your characterization of this experience as a “vacation”–and your only mentioning the fun times, and not the bad times–lead me to believe that you saw child care as something people can just walk away from if they want to. That’s not the case for everyone.

  5. Unimaginative:

    (Although that bit about your older niece screaming for 20 minutes is making my back-brain go HMMMM, what’s up with that?)

    Meh, he just said it “seemed like” 20 minutes. Little kids can shriek when they really want to, and even a few seconds of that can seem like forever.

    Fembot

    Also, I understand that doing hard physical labor for decades takes a huge toll on the human body, and NWO might just be in pain and exhausted all of the time (and cranky).

    Oh boy, yes. When my grandfather (my dad’s dad) was an old man, he couldn’t raise his hands past his shoulder any more—my dad had to put his coat on for him every morning at dawn. On the other hand, my mother also did a lot of heavy physical work, caring for her younger siblings and, later, us; by the time I was in my teens, her wrists were so bad that she was in constant pain.

    Two people, both worked into the ground, but one did work marked “masculine” (he sold fruits and vegetables out of a cart in New York) and one did work marked “feminine” (child care)—guess who gets typed as a Stalwart Hero of Labor, and who’s just doing what’s expected?

  6. ” I may even chuckle about it.” -Ruby

    No.
    You are disrespecting the victims of the person you are chuckling about. I know that you won’t understand that, but… I’m putting it out there.

    http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/features/2011/10/world-of-warcraft-text-murder-201110

    Feeling like you want these monsters to go through what they put someone through might be understandable, read this. HOWEVER, chuckle away and think of the perps described in this article.

    Congrats you have just joined their ranks. There is nothing but sadness in anger that is appropriate in my opinion. Taken together with your libertarian madness, Ruby, and YUCK.

    I will admit I resent to scrolling through threads and seeing endless Ruby comments, so I’m always debating if I should say what I think about you or not. But there it is. You’ve got room to grow in some important ways in my opinion.

    At least you don’t seem overly sensitive to the criticisms you get here
    LOL.

    Made myself laugh.

  7. Kendra, the bionic mommy

    If you really, really want to be a stay at home caregiver, become a nanny. Granted, you won’t make much pay, and chances are pretty good that you’ll be disrespected and treated poorly. But otherwise, it’s a life of bliss for you. Go for it.

    That’s what I think. NWO views cleaning bathrooms and changing diapers as a vacation. If that’s the case, he would probably be very happy as a maid or a daycare owner. The pay is very low and there is zero prestige, but at least he would be doing what he loves.

    Now at a daycare, you’ll still have to deal with difficult customers. I used to work at a daycare and I’ve watched kids out of my home. One of my biggest gripes is how parents will bring a child who is very sick and try to downplay it with “Oh sure he has a 104 degree fever, but it’s just teething”. I notice white spots on the child’s throat, the child can’t hold anything down, so I’ll call the parents, and they’ll be like “I’m busy at work. Give him a cough drop and it will be fine”. I realize bosses can be hard on parents, but at the same time it’s not fair to the daycare worker or the other children to pretend not to notice strep throat or pneumonia. Sorry, rant over.

    NWO says Philadelphia is horrible. I can’t be a judge on that, because my views of the city are based on seeing the Liberty Bell in movies. I do know that it is depressing, though, to live in the middle of a rough area. I remember describing my neighborhood last year as looking like a landfill or war zone. While I wouldn’t complain about it, it was a downer. So I can see where he’s coming from.

  8. thebionicmommy

    I’d like to ask you a few things, though. What did you do when the kids got sick? Did you stay up with them all night? If so, did you have to do anything important the next day? Did the tough decisions fall on you? Was this hard?

    Because your characterization of this experience as a “vacation”–and your only mentioning the fun times, and not the bad times–lead me to believe that you saw child care as something people can just walk away from if they want to. That’s not the case for everyone.

    I’m wondering about this, too. NWO didn’t have all of the responsibilities that come from being a full time caregiver. Parenting has easy times and hard times. It’s one thing to do all the fun stuff like playing frisbee at the park, and another to be the one who does the harder things like cleaning up after a toddler finds a tube of lipstick and uses it to make art on the walls and furniture. It’s a lot like frog gigging. My brother and his buddies would go out at night with flashlights and gigs killing frogs and putting them in a bucket. When he brought them home, it was Mom and I who had to wash the bodies, cut off the legs, pull off the skin, and either fry the legs or store them for later. For the guys, the job was fun and easy. For us women, it was all work, all mess, and no fun.

  9. Really, the “quote mining”/”out of context” excuse requires that the context be specifically an indication that the person doesn’t believe it. Like the Dworkin quote where the context is “my opponents would accuse me of saying X, but that’s not what I believe.”

    NWO:

    @hellkell
    “NWO, today celebrates the Declaration of Independence, you idiot.”

    Ya mean from the international bankers? We done lost that battle. Think Woodrow Wilson.

    What country is slavey actually from? If I were to point to that country on a map, what name would the map use for the country I was pointing at?

    Because he doesn’t seem to have heard of the Declaration of Independence. Like, he seems to think it’s something hellkell made up. Though I suppose the fact that I linked to it is further NWO-evidence that it doesn’t exist, since as we know, anything that has a source is false.

    Alternatively, he’s so used to his knee-jerk pitiable attmpts at mockery and sarcasm that he doesn’t even pay attention to the topic at hand.

    Fembot:

    In Owlyverse, those things only take 30 minutes, maximum. And doing laundry for a family of four is no more time consuming than doing laundry for a bachelor.

    It’s not.

    You just have to do it more often.

  10. Unimaginative

    Fembot:

    In Owlyverse, those things only take 30 minutes, maximum. And doing laundry for a family of four is no more time consuming than doing laundry for a bachelor.

    It’s not.

    You just have to do it more often.

    Um, Hershele, doing something more often usually consumes more time than doing that same thing once.

  11. It’s not.

    You just have to do it more often.

    Ha ha ha! I see what you did there. But the difficulty of laundry depends on what kinds of clothes you wear. Jeans and T shirts are way easier than business shirts that need ironing all the time. I hate ironing, and I suck at it. So my husband does his own. And he is pretty good at it.

  12. Jeans and T shirts are way easier than business shirts that need ironing all the time.

    Yup. And both are easier than, say, a little girl’s white lace First Communion dress that her baby brother pooped on. (Yes, this is a real thing that a family I used to babysit for had to deal with. I think between their mom and I, we hand-washed, bleached, stain-treated, etc. that dress about 20 times, all to the accompaniment of the daughter’s wails because that was her PRINCESS DRESS and she didn’t want to be a POOPY PRINCESS!)

  13. Really, the “quote mining”/”out of context” excuse requires that the context be specifically an indication that the person doesn’t believe it. Like the Dworkin quote where the context is “my opponents would accuse me of saying X, but that’s not what I believe.”

    Hey, you mean like when MRAs constantly attribute quotes of characters from novels to their feminist authors to prove that feminists hate men? But that’s not quote mining, it’s, um…

  14. And both are easier than, say, a little girl’s white lace First Communion dress that her baby brother pooped on. (Yes, this is a real thing that a family I used to babysit for had to deal with. I think between their mom and I, we hand-washed, bleached, stain-treated, etc. that dress about 20 times, all to the accompaniment of the daughter’s wails because that was her PRINCESS DRESS and she didn’t want to be a POOPY PRINCESS!)

    Lol. My family’s baptismal gown has a little brown speck on it from where my father’s cousin shat on it. My father is almost 70, and that cousin may be long dead by now…

  15. Anyway, I think it’s indefinably sad how our most rage-filled, bitter MRA seems to really want “feminine” activities…even as he rails against feminism trying to “turn men into women” or whatever. What you repress is what you seek, broheim. And I’m sorry that you suffer.

  16. I actually do spend about as long on laundry for three people as I did on laundry for Hershele living alone, but I have to use the bigger, more expensive machines. So the time is the same, but it costs more.

  17. I definitely spend nearly twice as long when I’m washing my boyfriend’s and my laundry as opposed to just my own. It’s a little less than twice as long, because I’d be washing sheets regardless. If I had to go to a laundromat instead of doing it at home, as Hershele noted, perhaps it would cost more while taking proportionally less time (although it would of course take more time than laundering at home).

    Even with a bigger washer, however, it wouldn’t take me “about as long” to do laundry for two people as it does for one, because it would still take me twice as long to fold twice as many items. I would love to hear hints for folding twice as many clothes in half the time, however!

  18. CassandraSays

    Maybe Slavey is one of those people who doesn’t understand that there’s a limit to how much that you can put in the machines at once, so he’s just imagining cramming everything in even if it doesn’t actually get clean that way. I’m betting that the concept of separate cycles for colds, whites, delicates etc has not occurred to him.

    Or, you know, he knows very well that he’s talking nonsense but nothing is as important as attempting to get women to shut up.

  19. Argenti Aertheri

    The delicate cycle, and cold water washing, are MISANDRY! (Ok, I admit to being lazy enough I go for just cold and delicate cycle, but my wardrobe steers more towards black than white…does that make me racist against white shirts? XD )

  20. CassandraSays

    The fact that delicates exist is misandry, as is laundry in general. If society was in its natural state women would just automtically do everyone’s laundry without men ever having to think about it.

  21. Argenti Aertheri

    “…women would just automtically do everyone’s laundry without men ever having to think about it.”

    But that’s literally impossible…either he needs to put his laundry in the bin, be asked for it, or not complain when his dirty clothing isn’t sitting where he left it. Somehow I can’t see MRAs being okay with any of those. Putting it in the bin being work, being asked for it being nagging, and her just collecting his clothing would probably be like, theft or something…or some combination of them depending his mood…and the MRM feels a lot like gaslighters anonymous with no attempt to reform, but instead just going “yeah! we rock!”

    I mean, my mother still does my 23 year old brother’s laundry, but only if he puts it in the bin, and she has to remind him of that sometimes (I’ve mentioned he’s basically Chris Griffan incarnate right? One of these days he’s going to have to learn how to clean things)

  22. Argenti Aertheri

    And wait, doesn’t that contradict the complaints that women live longer? How would widowers do laundry if they never had before? (And priests get the nuns to do it I guess?)

  23. Bee:

    I would love to hear hints for folding twice as many clothes in half the time, however!

    I use the “shove everything in the drawer” technique. The joys of telecommuting!

    Actually, the rule here is that everyone is reponsible for retrieving and putting away his or her own clothes. Slavey wouldn’t like that.

  24. Bee-

    Do you have a lot of tshirts?
    2 second tshirt fold

    You can find videos on YouTube that are easier to follow, but I didn’t try to post a link b/c I’m on my phone and clicking on videos just opens them in the YouTube app, I’m pretty sure. Too lazy to try to figure it out. :P

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.

Join 7,800 other followers

%d bloggers like this: