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Men’s Rights Redditors angry that reality is reality. (Murder statistics edition.)

Over on the Men’s Rights subreddit, mgriff2k4 is angry that the picture to the right here showed up on his computer screen. Sorry, make that fucking angry. “Did this really just fucking pop up on my news feed?” he asks in the title of his post, adding in a comment: “sorry about the word “fucking” but im really pissed off about this.”

Why is he angry? Presumably, he assumes the statistic is untrue, and that it unfairly paints men as evil murderers.

Luckily, in this Age of the Internet it is trivially easy to find out whether statistics like this are true. It involves something called “Google.” mgriff2k4 did not bother to avail himself of this easy-to-use research tool.

But I did. In less than 5 minutes, I confirmed that this factoid is indeed true, at least according to the most recent figures on gender and homicide found on the Department of Justice’s web site, drawn from FBI data covering the years from 1976-2005. According to the FBI, 30% of women who are murdered are murdered by “intimates.” Roughly 20% are killed by husbands or ex-husbands; 10% by boyfriends or girlfriends. (In the overwhelming majority of cases the murderers are boyfriends, not girlfriends; men are ten times more likely to commit murder than women.)

While four times as many men are murdered than women, only 5% of murdered men are killed by “intimates.” Men kill women more than twice as often as women kill men. Women suffer far more serious injuries from domestic violence than men do; so it is not altogether unexpected that they are also far more likely to be murdered by intimates.

If you want to see what this means on a human level, I suggest you take a look at the excellent if depressing web site Domestic Violence Crime Watch, which links to stories in which men are the perpetrators, and in which men are the victims. There are far more of those in the former category than in the latter.

I should note that (as of this writing) one commenter in the thread also found his way to the DOJ site, and noted that men were more likely to be killed by strangers or acquaintances. But he didn’t bother to tell mkgriff2k4 that the sign in the picture was in fact accurate.

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Posted on June 29, 2012, in antifeminism, domestic violence, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, reddit, Uncategorized. Bookmark the permalink. 668 Comments.

  1. Weird, why is there a Pingback to this post from an Anti-Man Boobz blog post that doesn’t seem to exist? Can anyone else see it?

  2. Cloudiah said:
    Weird, why is there a Pingback to this post from an Anti-Man Boobz blog post that doesn’t seem to exist? Can anyone else see it?

    I can!

    Btw, can you subscribe to comments without posting one? I don’t always want to post one, but I always like reading them.

  3. You don’t know shit about me princess.

    Actually NWO, “hateful, fucking dumbas” sounds pretty accurate to me. I’ll add that I really wish you would fuck off you racist homophobic misogynistic creeper.

  4. Yeah I’m seeing it too Cloudiah. WordPress issues I guess.

  5. CassandraSays

    Maybe he posted something and deleted it, or is currently editing it?

    Also lovely how Slavey manages to sound racist even while attempting to prove that he’s not racist. He’s like the perfect opposite of a miracle.

  6. @cloudiah

    He had an adorable post up, telling his loyal readers that David was falsely accusing him of socking in the other thread, which was indisputable proof that he’s got David shaking in his boots!! Like I said, adorable

  7. Did he delete it? Awww

  8. Not sure, but it reminded me of my nephew jumping out from behind the door to scare me after”hiding” while giggling with his ass sticking out. I just wanted to go “My goodness,you’re so scary!! I almost jumped out of my skin!!”

  9. NWO: #2) Women still considered perfect and can do no wrong.

    RUBY.

    Case fucking closed.

  10. Unimaginative: Huh. You seem to have teeny-tiny little classes in the States. In Canada (according to a survey done by the Canadian Teacher’s Federation

    He’s lying.

  11. @NWO

    “You don’t know shit about me princess.”

    Well, I know you are:

    racist
    homophobic
    misogynist
    misandrist (man shaming by calling men “manginas”)
    transphobic
    anti-semitic
    bitter
    paranoid
    angry
    frustrated
    unhappy
    lonely
    confused

    and probably a lot more that I’m forgetting at the moment.

    We know a lot about you. And still we tolerate your presence. Don’t forget that.

  12. Was that the Buttvords Brainded (or whatever it was, I forget) that made its appearance while Dave was in Cape Cod?

  13. He had an adorable post up, telling his loyal readers that David was falsely accusing him of socking in the other thread, which was indisputable proof that he’s got David shaking in his boots!! Like I said, adorable

    Ha ha ha, this was the Torvus Butthorn post, or whatever the name was on the account that was posting from the same IP address as Varpole? That IS adorable.

    Your nephew sounds adorable too.

  14. John Anderson

    Pecunium, you might want to work on your reading comprehension because I gave you one. The one you didn’t actually choose to address.

    “While four times as many men are murdered than women, only 5% of murdered men are killed by “intimates.”

    Notice the word ONLY. If you can count that high, it’s the 11th word in the quote.

    Hint: You might need to take off a shoe.

  15. @John

    You deserved that sound ass whipping handed out by Pecunium. Now fuck off.

  16. Am I the only person totally nonplussed by John Anderson’s comment? What are you talking about, dude?

  17. @Snowy

    You have to scroll way back to find the comment he’s responding to. Basically he’s butt hurt because someone questioned his reading comprehension.

  18. Aww, so sad that Varphorn took down his post. Snowy didn’t save it, did you?

  19. Argg no I didn’t. But I know he’s put posts up and then taken them down then put them up again before, so maybe he’ll put it back up once he’s fixed his spelling mistakes. I live in hope.

  20. I didn’t say always, you did.

    Even above survival, every cell in your body, every instinct say’s, reproduce, pass on your genes.

  21. He…takes them down in order to edit them?

    (Not accusing you of course; it would never occur to me to archive Anti-Manboobz. Although now it’s occurring to me.)

  22. John Anderson

    Pecunium says,

    “Not quite. It lets them pretend there is science behind their arguments. Then (as with Ruby) they can just shriek about “SCIENCE”, and ignore the actual facts.”

    Which facts are you looking at, the fact that women perpetrate the vast majority of child abuse? The fact that women abuse those that are weaker than they and are SHOCKED that those stronger may abuse them.

    “Nearly two-fifths (37.2%) of victims were maltreated by their mother acting alone. One-fifth (19.1%) of victims were maltreated by their father acting alone.”

    http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm10/cm10.pdf#page=31

    Or the DOJ report on abuse in juvenile detention.

    http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/reviewpanel/pdfs/panel_report_101014.pdf

    “In regard to incidents of staff sexual misconduct, 92.0% involved male youth and female staff members; 1.7% involved male youth and male staff members; 2.5% involved male youth and both male and female staff members; 3.0% involved female youth and male staff members; 0.0% involved female youth and female staff members; and 0.8% involved female youth and both male and female staff members.”
    “Facilities that housed only female youth offenders had the highest rates of youth-on-youth victimization (11.0%), whereas facilities that housed only male youth offenders had the highest rates of staff sexual misconduct (11.3%).10”

    So women abuse those weaker than themselves and are SHOCKED. SHOCKED that people stronger than them may abuse them.

    I forgot, you can’t see any fact that show females abuse males.

  23. “So women abuse those weaker than themselves and are SHOCKED. SHOCKED that people stronger than them may abuse them.”

    So, since women are abusers, they deserve to be abused?

    “I forgot, you can’t see any fact that show females abuse males.”

    No, but you and other MRAs spin the statistics so that it looks like women abuse men in equal or greater proportion than men abuse women, and it’s simply not true.

    MRAs gloat over any instance of a woman abusing someone, as though it is typical of women’s behavior. But when a man’s criminal actions are pointed out, you see it as reflecting poorly on all men, and call it misandry.

  24. Here’s my radical position: people shouldn’t abuse each other, no matter their age, gender, relative strength, etc. Shocking, I know!

    John Anderson’s position, on the other hand, seems to be that stronger people should be expected to abuse weaker people — that strikes me as a pretty disgusting position, lacking in empathy.

  25. John Anderson

    Unimaginative says,

    “MRAs: you know that movie you saw, where the evil woman seduced some naive loser to kill her husband? Yeah, that was just a movie, not a documentary. It was all sensational and shocking and everything, but it’s not a common, real-life occurrence. Most real-life people have an aversion to killing. Most real-life people, given the opportunity, figure out non-violent solutions to their problems.”

    So when feminists talk about men killing women, you think they should realize that “it’s not a common, real-life occurrence. Most real-life people have an aversion to killing”. When you say “that was just a movie, not a documentary ” are you suggesting that women haven’t killed men before and the reported occurrences are all fabrications?

    I promised some feminists, who I really admire, at The Good Men Project that I would initially engage feminists without assuming that they are misandrist, a very difficult task for me at least. I think that I’ve mostly lived up to that promise so far as I’ve asked for clarifications and I’ve used qualifiers like seems. I can understand if this comment was written in frustration, but understand that I and any new visitor to the site won’t understand the back story if there is one and the comment just comes off as being dismissive of male victimization.

  26. John Anderson

    Cloudiah says,

    “Here’s my radical position: people shouldn’t abuse each other, no matter their age, gender, relative strength, etc. Shocking, I know!”

    Mine too. You must have missed my previous comment were I said that I thought one murder was to much. Since you didn’t chose to criticize the OP for stating that only 5% of men are killed by intimates, should I assume that you’re lying or is it because you don’t think men have a gender? That explains why you don’t use your real name.

    “John Anderson’s position, on the other hand, seems to be that stronger people should be expected to abuse weaker people — that strikes me as a pretty disgusting position, lacking in empathy.”

    When did I say that? I simply stated that it shouldn’t be a surprise to those who abuse the weak to be abused by someone stronger. I never said it was right. In fact, I’ve said one murder was too much. Such hate from feminist who simply do not like the facts, shocking.

  27. CassandraSays

    “I promised some feminists, who I really admire, at The Good Men Project that I would initially engage feminists without assuming that they are misandrist, a very difficult task for me at least.”

    And look, you’re already failing. Doesn’t seem like you’re actually trying very hard at all.

  28. Cassandra I am shocked, shocked! that he’s already failing. Well, not really.

  29. John Anderson

    Fembot says,

    “So, since women are abusers, they deserve to be abused?”

    No, why do you think I took exception to the OP’s use of the term ONLY to describe the number of men killed by intimates. It seems that I’m the only person who has taken exception to that.

    “No, but you and other MRAs spin the statistics so that it looks like women abuse men in equal or greater proportion than men abuse women, and it’s simply not true.”

    Look at the DOJ National Intimate Partner Sexual Victimization Survey 2010 page 18 table 2.1. It indicates that in the last 12 months there were 1,270,000 rapes of intimate partners. That is 1,270,000 too many. Page 19 table 2.2 under made to penetrate (the statistic they use to indicate male rape victims. This always reminds me of how the feminist lobby championed a change in the FBI definition of rape that specifically exempted the majority of female perpetrated rapes from the count) it shows 1,267,000 during the same time period. That is 1,267,000 too many. Rape should be stopped regardless of how it is called and who it is done too.

    http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf

    “MRAs gloat over any instance of a woman abusing someone, as though it is typical of women’s behavior. But when a man’s criminal actions are pointed out, you see it as reflecting poorly on all men, and call it misandry.”

    Some of them do, not all of us. Are you surprised that in an article playing to the oppression Olympics that there would be some comments pointing out that two could play? I was on a voice for men a while back. They had nothing but contempt for the GMPers. I’m certain that I’ll cross paths with them. It is my heartfelt intent to reclaim my movement from people who would disgrace it.

    This was the most civil response I’ve received so far. I appreciate it.

  30. “So when feminists talk about men killing women, you think they should realize that “it’s not a common, real-life occurrence. Most real-life people have an aversion to killing”.

    I think everyone knows that MOST men are not killers. Do we need to always spell this out to spare your feelings?

    “When you say “that was just a movie, not a documentary ” are you suggesting that women haven’t killed men before and the reported occurrences are all fabrications?””

    Are you really that dense? You know very well that is not what she meant.

  31. John, how do you know I don’t use my real name? How do I know you do use your real name? (And how is that even meaningful to anyone except you?)

    Citing actual statistics does not mean approval of the situation, by the way. Saying only 5% of murdered men are killed by intimate partners does not equal “5% is an acceptable number.” Most people understand that.

    Also what you said is what you said, and that is exactly what my comment was based on.

  32. “This was the most civil response I’ve received so far. I appreciate it.”

    Well now I feel like an asshole.

  33. “Only” does not mean “totally acceptable” — I really can’t understand how you think that, unless it’s through a lens of “feminists hate men and want them to die.”

  34. John Anderson

    CassandraSays says,

    “And look, you’re already failing. Doesn’t seem like you’re actually trying very hard at all.”

    Snowy says,

    “Cassandra I am shocked, shocked! that he’s already failing. Well, not really.”

    I only promised not to assume that feminists were misandrists. Once proven, it is no longer an assumption.

  35. Oh another “don’t make me hate you even though I already do” kind of mra? yawnnn

  36. “I only promised not to assume that feminists were misandrists. Once proven, it is no longer an assumption.”

    I hear this a lot from MRAs. What exactly is your evidence for our misandry? I don’t hate men and I don’t think any contributors here do either. I certainly don’t think David hates men. Nobody is making light of male abuse victims, or saying all men are violent, or stupid, etc.

  37. John Anderson

    Fembot says,

    “Well now I feel like an asshole.”

    Feminists have told me that feelings are valid. :)

  38. John, have you read the tagline of this blog? Mocking misogyny. That’s what we do here. Sorry if this hurts your feelings. Well, not really. Since you’ve proven yourself to be a misogynist I have no qualms about mocking you and your ridiculous “shocked, shocked!” affectations.

  39. “Feminists have told me that feelings are valid.”

    That’s a good one. But since everything feminists say is poppycock, I guess I’m not an asshole after all. :)

  40. John Anderson

    Cloudiah says,

    “Only” does not mean “totally acceptable” — I really can’t understand how you think that, unless it’s through a lens of “feminists hate men and want them to die.”

    It reduces the relevance of their deaths. What if I were to say only 30% of women are killed by an intimate partner? Doesn’t that sound minimizing? Does that sound trivializing? Maybe he picked a bad choice of words and would like to edit it out. I get it people make mistakes. That’s why I asked him to clarify.

  41. “It reduces the relevance of their deaths.”

    This is not because men aren’t valued, or are trivial, as you think.

    It is reducing the relevance of being an equal comparison to the deaths of women, because clearly 30% is more than 5%.

    No one condones violence against males. Murdering men is not “less” bad than murdering women. I don’t think we need to clarify that because you think it sounds misandrist. As I’ve seen, most MRAs will twist the meaning of anything we say until they find a crack they can exploit, using it as “proof” of our misandry.

  42. CassandraSays

    Nah, this appears to be a “the purpose of this misogyny mocking blog ought to be to convince me that feminism is OK, even though I’ve already decided that feminism is misandry – wait, why isn’t everyone trying to win me over? you’re all so mean” troll.

  43. John Anderson

    Fembot says,

    ” I hear this a lot from MRAs. What exactly is your evidence for our misandry? I don’t hate men and I don’t think any contributors here do either. I certainly don’t think David hates men. Nobody is making light of male abuse victims, or saying all men are violent, or stupid, etc.”

    It’s partly due to the reception I received here. I don’t think all the commentators hate men or are necessarily closed minded to other view points. I actually stepped away from a safe space to engage people who don’t see things the way I do. The feeling that I get is that there is great hostility to anyone who may consider men to be victims under any circumstance.

    We’ve had a discussion on GMP concerning derailing. I forgot that the prevailing sentiment among our feminist members was that it was not appropriate to mention male victims on a forum discussing female victimization. I guess you’re sensitive to that. I guess I actually had to see it. Point taken, understood. His use of the term only in describing male victims irritated me so I showed him an instance where males were overwhelmingly victimized by females.

    I’ve quoted DOJ and CDC statistics and included page numbers or links on an article that says that we shouldn’t be angry over truthful statistics. I’ve been told that the statistics have been spun. Maybe I should have refrained from that SHOCKED bit. I probably should have considered the feelings of the people on this site. I’d consider apologizing, but too many people here seem mean.

    I’m sure you’ve had bad experiences. That’s why a lot of people on GMP became feminists or MRAs. I don’t know the back stories and suppose I should just let the stupid sniping comments go. We’ll see. I hope you’re right about the people here.

  44. You’ve been duped princess. Your now a self suffecient slave. So am I.

    Okay, I believe you. I’ve been fooled by the Powers That Be into wanting equal rights. My question is: what alternative do you offer, and how does it benefit me more than the existing system?

    Let me clarify. At present, in my slave state, I’m a happily married woman who works as a cartoonist and comic-book editor. My husband is a museum curator, a job that doesn’t pay a lot but does good in the world and makes him happy. This past weekend we visited the Academy of Sciences, went shopping for comic books, and caught a sneak preview of the new Spider-Man movie. We’re planning a barbecue for the Fourth of July.

    In your ideal society, what would I be doing instead, and how would this be better for my husband and me? Why should we support your ideas?

  45. John Anderson

    Fembot says,

    “It is reducing the relevance of being an equal comparison to the deaths of women, because clearly 30% is more than 5%.”

    Every person’s death has relevance to those who love them. Did you really mean to say that? MRAs will use that as proof of misandry because it sounds misandrist. I’ve been told that this is not a zero sum game, we should play the oppression Olympics, ect., but even if you look at raw numbers, he didn’t say what you think he said.

    “While four times as many men are murdered than women, only 5% of murdered men are killed by “intimates.”

    If I were to multiply the number of men killed by 5% I would get the relative number of men killed to women’s deaths or 20%. So in absolute terms for every 3 men who kill a woman, there are 2 women who kill a man. Who is really spinning the stats? Does it sound more relevant? What proportion needs to be reached before it attains relevance?

  46. John Anderson

    Shaenon says,

    ” Okay, I believe you. I’ve been fooled by the Powers That Be into wanting equal rights. My question is: what alternative do you offer, and how does it benefit me more than the existing system?

    Let me clarify. At present, in my slave state, I’m a happily married woman who works as a cartoonist and comic-book editor. My husband is a museum curator, a job that doesn’t pay a lot but does good in the world and makes him happy. This past weekend we visited the Academy of Sciences, went shopping for comic books, and caught a sneak preview of the new Spider-Man movie. We’re planning a barbecue for the Fourth of July.
    In your ideal society, what would I be doing instead, and how would this be better for my husband and me? Why should we support your ideas?”

    I have over 7,000 comic books in my garage, but I’m not giving them up. :) One thing we agree on at GMP was that people shouldn’t be prevented from following the path that they want. I don’t know what your complaint is. It seems like a fairly fulfilling life. I hear you’re happily married. I’m assuming that you love comic books because you work in the industry and buy them. You also watch Spiderman (I gave away all my Amazing Spiderman comics, but have a run of Peter Parker the Spectacular Spiderman). I guess you love your husband and he loves what he’s doing and that should make you happy.
    I don’t really see a problem, but feel that you should be able to follow your heart. What would you wish to be different?

  47. John Anderson

    CassandraSays says

    “Nah, this appears to be a “the purpose of this misogyny mocking blog ought to be to convince me that feminism is OK, even though I’ve already decided that feminism is misandry – wait, why isn’t everyone trying to win me over? you’re all so mean” troll.”,

    So if the blog mocks misogyny, I should have known that it would support misandry? If I thought that feminism was wrong, and I thought misandry was wrong, and this blog supports misandry and is feminist. Then I guess I was right. Feminism is wrong. Good of you to clear that up.

  48. CassandraSays

    I’m sorry that your reading comprehension is so poor (and that your sense of humor has been surgically removed), that must all be terribly difficult for you.

  49. Interpretations of stats are spun, not stats.

    If you assign relevance to ‘the vast majority of child abuse it done by women’, I want to know what kind of relevance and what conclusions you’re drawing from that.

    Because the vast majority of kids are with women, first of all, so what are you gleaning from that fact? That is what’s in question. Also where child abuse is concerned and children are severely wounded or die, the statistics for men being involved skyrocket, and it’s no longer the “vast majority” of abuse by women.

    Also ANY domestic violence statistic, unless it’s a childless couple is also child abuse.
    Look up the murdered women in Minnesota for 2011 and read their stories, see how many children are involved and/or dead.

    http://www.mcbw.org/files/images/2011_Femicide_Report_FINAL_0.pdf

    My favorite comment about you here is the “don’t make me hate you when I already do” comment, it’s spot on. There is a certain type of person that could up up with “feminists are misandrists” as a hypothesis about millions of people, and it’s not a type of person with much common sense or basic understanding of how human beings work. It’s also a very bigoted mindset, and politically entrenched in fantasy land.

    So far the conversation here has been bigoted, but I know you won’t get that.
    It’s a challenge for people to over turn your strange angles on reality without sounding like they’re engaging in oppression Olympics, or giving the impression that they take the same bigoted views on life, just through the looking glass, or on the other side of the mirror, in reverse, etc.

    It would be very hard for most MRAs to understand the nuance of feminism, and that it’s really NOT the flipside of what they are doing, it’s soooooooooooo much better than that.

    The reason we end up having to talk about statics of violence and rape is only because of the denial and opposition. There should be no problem in going about the business of tending to these circumstances.

    There are some issues that affect women in a large way, yet even though we are/have been otherized as a different species and dealt with as such to the point where we share some distinctive qualities through negative external influences, we are only allowed to identify as that distinct group with peculiar samenesses when it benefits the ruling group, but not in any way to organize to help ourselves in any way.

    Heads you win, tails we lose.

  50. John, Shaenon was responding to NWOslave, not you.

  51. John, sometimes it’s easier for people to get what I’m saying if we look at race. Black people in the US have a unique history. There is a fallout from that history, and social external influences that have shaped some distinctiveness and commonalities among darker skinned people in the US. There are experiences they can all almost universally identify with, and unfortunately that is through oppression and negativity.

    In order to deal with this, then those dynamics have to be recognized, regardless of individual snowflakeyness.

    Racists will call any attempt to acknowledge these realities of sameness, or acknowledgement of group identity, racism. They think it reinforces their points.

    See how shitty that is?

    I know I’m not explaining things well, I used to be able to explain that well, and I should look up how I used to write that out, but where I wrote it no longer exists, so I’m going to have to wrack my brain. I think there are holes and ironies in my word useage here, so I hope that my point gets across.

  52. Argenti Aertheri

    Since NWO still has a hate-on for me, let’s tackle some of his many claims!

    “Arnold, the governator, and the maid is an excellent example of hypergamy in women and polygamy in men which I wrote about above. It doesn’t really matter who initiated between the two of them, either of them could’ve said no.”

    Um, no, she really couldn’t have, not without risking her job, and thus, iirc, visa to be in the US. There’s a reason it isn’t legal to have sex with your employees in many places…

    “In the feminist ghetto’s there’s like a 70% out of wedlock birthrate. I’ll just use 100 as a nice round number. A 100 women in a neighborhood of 200 women get pregnant out of wedlock. They’re not getting pregnant from 100 different men. It might be 50 men or less.”

    Ok, I knew you were bad at math, but 100 is 50% of 200; 70 is 70% of 100; this is pretty simple. And citation needed on that “50 men or less” part.

    “And please stop the silly nonsense that rape doesn’t involve sex. You’d be hard pressed to make a rape charge stick unless unwanted sex occured.”

    Didn’t you bring up rape by object like, yesterday? Or is forcibly inserting a bottle/broom/not-sex-toy into someone sex by the common definition now?

    “In 2005 it was 69.5% in the feminist ghetto. Apparently my ass keeps pretty good stats.”

    Those stats, what’s the source of them? Does this nonsense apply? — “So if ya give me a link to a Big daddy site don’t be too insulted if I laugh in your face. I might be laughing a little at your gullibility, but mostly I’m laughing at the total unreliability of the site you’ve provided.”

    “For public schools, the number of pupils per teacher—that is, the pupil/teacher ratio—declined from 22.3 in 1970 to 17.9 in 1985. After 1985, the public school pupil/teacher ratio continued to decline, reaching 17.2 in 1989. After a period of relative stability during the late 1980s through the mid-1990s, the ratio declined from 17.3 in 1995 to 16.0 in 2000. Decreases have continued since then, and the public school pupil/teacher ratio was 15.3 in 2008.

    The average salary for public school teachers in 2009–10 was $55,350, about 3 percent higher than in 1990–91, after adjustment for inflation.

    Average wage in 2010, $41,673.83″

    Ditto, and you’ll want the median here, not average, for all the reasons already given, and also because special area schools can be public, but usually have smaller class sizes (eg art focuses HSs). Only class I had with <20 people was Latin, and we joked about how tiny our class was because of that. Nonetheless, those Latin classes with 7 students will skew the average, as will the shop classes that are kept smaller for safety reasons, you need the median here.

    “Has Argenti been giving you lessons in kafka trapping?”

    You really think me far more important than I am.

  53. John Anderson

    Indifferentsky,

    “Because the vast majority of kids are with women,”

    Is there no abortion or adoption option? When men realize that they can’t care for children, they are vilified, but women are praised for giving their children a wonderful gift of adoption. Men are screwed over in family court over custody and visitation, but women’s excuse is they have the kids more. Why not fight for father’s rights if women are overburdened? Do those stats include men who are forced to raise another man’s child because the law won’t allow the biological father to assert rights. One such law was just overturned in Michigan over the opposition of NOW.

    http://jeannehannah.typepad.com/blog_jeanne_hannah_traver/paternity/

    Here from the chapter web site.

    ”The putative father’s rights bills (HB 4067, SB 256, SB 557, 558, 559, 560) have passed the Senate and House Judiciary Committee. We testified against the bills as they take away a protective mother’s rights. The bills are supported by the Family Law Section of the State Bar, the DHS Office of Child Support, the probate judges, and of course the father’s rights groups. Now that there is DNA testing, biological fathers can be identified should they wish to come forward and make a claim. The logic of allowing putative fathers to gain access to and some control over their progeny seems to hit sympathetic chords with legislators in the silence of the affected women and children.”

    http://www.michnow.org/capitolreport-2012-03.htm

    Feminism the pro-infidelity lobby.

    Why doesn’t DV stats include third parties, because women hire hit men more often? Why don’t they include the sexual assault stats in serious DV because if they did men would make up a lot more than 30% of the victims of serious DV. We know that many murder for hire plots were foiled. Why aren’ those included? Many more men are murdered than women. Not all those crimes are solved. How many were 3rd party perpetrators of DV?

  54. CassandraSays

    @ indifferent sky

    It isn’t the way that you’re explaining it that’s the problem, really, it’s that in order for someone to get the point you’re making they have to step outside themselves a bit. Someone who comes to a blog full of people who they’re already convinced are prejudiced against them on account of their gender when there’s no real reason to assume that would be the case, announces that it’s hard for them not to assume that said people are prejudiced against them, and then expects a positive conversation to ensue is not in the right sort of mental or emotional space to be able to do that.

  55. CassandraSays

    @ Argenti

    I’m still trying to figure out how NWOs math made sense to him. Obviously it doesn’t make sense from a mathematical or logical perspective, I’m just curious what sort of logic path he went down that made that progression of percentages seem in any way mathematically sound to him.

    Most of what he writes goes straight through the “no actual content, ignore” filter these days but that part triggered was hilariously dopey enough to jump out.

  56. Argenti Aertheri

    John Anderson —

    I realize you weren’t around then, but I already tackled that CDC rape data. Please see this comment, and the footnote to it.

    “It reduces the relevance of their deaths. What if I were to say only 30% of women are killed by an intimate partner? Doesn’t that sound minimizing? Does that sound trivializing? Maybe he picked a bad choice of words and would like to edit it out. I get it people make mistakes. That’s why I asked him to clarify.”

    Context, it’s about context. If 50% of women were killed by strangers, then saying “only 30% are killed by an intimate partner” would be correct. But 30% is unarguably much larger than 5%.

    Re: child abuse stats — I’m sure we’ve already done that one, but I don’t seem to have saved it. In any case, when you factor for single parent households generally being female headed, the risk of child abuse in single parent male headed households looks pretty grim. Same math as how you arrived at “for every 3 men who kill a woman, there are 2 women who kill a man” (that should be “for every 3 men who kill a woman they were/are intimate with, there are 2 women who kill a man they were/are intimate with” btw).

    You’ll note that we discussed the 3:2 thing back on page one before getting side tracked by free will and Ruby. (And note that Ruby is a feminist getting shit for saying prison rape is okay.)

    Re: the DOJ report on abuse in juvenile detention — has anyone here said anything even implying we like the US “justice” system? Or has everything been the opposite, that that shit needs serious reform? You also need to account for just how many more boys there are in juvie, because holy shit is it a lot. And I was gong to review the numbers, but the table of context has a whole section on how the data isn’t generalizable, so yeah, I’m not going to bother. Small sample size or not, yes, the prison system is fucked up. (You should google “Stanford Prison study” and find the video, the problem is prison, not gender.)

  57. Argenti Aertheri

    Pecunium — “Was that the Buttvords Brainded (or whatever it was, I forget) that made its appearance while Dave was in Cape Cod?” — Yup.

  58. John Anderson

    David says,

    “John, Shaenon was responding to NWOslave, not you.”

    Sorry, Shaenon..

    Indifferentsky,

    I will read your posts, but must prepare for work. Good morning, all.

  59. Argenti Aertheri

    John Anderson — oh, you intend to make us answer every MRA talking point ever, nevermind the attempt at statistics then. We did the murder for hire thing already, on this very thread. My inital reply, first comment with math, and my number crunching.

    Cassandra — your comment to indifferentsky basically sums to “confirmation bias, he’s having it”. Re: NWO’s math, yeah, it’s usually at least plausibly bad, eg “you failed to carry a 1, oops!” not just…failboating — how 70% became 50% is beyond me.

  60. CassandraSays

    Usually NWO sticks to the traditional MRA percentages of 100%, 99%, 50%, and 0%. 70% at least qualifies as an attempt to diversify, even if it makes no sense at all in context.

  61. CassandraSays

    Then again he loves making up statistics. Remember when he decided that some random (very high) percentage of gay men are pedophiles and responsible for X% of all murders?

  62. Why is it that so many MRAs are also racists? Is it because of the reliance on evo-psych and social Darwinism?

  63. ShadetheDruid

    Why is it that so many MRAs are also racists? Is it because of the reliance on evo-psych and social Darwinism? – Sorka

    I think it’s more simple than that: different bigotries just tend to overlap.

  64. Argenti Aertheri

    Cassandra — no, I missed that. Explains why he got so upset when I said that shit had been debunked repeatedly — he was all “you didn’t debunk anything!” when I never claimed I did, merely expressed amazement he was saying all male rape that’s committed by men is by gay men because sex with a man is de facto gay. (Argh, I’m sorry, he’s going to derail into that now probably)

  65. CassandraSays

    The way he phrased it last time he brought it up almost sounded like he was blaming gay men for most of the rapes of women too, which was like…huh? At a certain point you just have to accept that most of what he says doesn’t have even the most vague connection to reality. Which is why I mostly ignore him unless I’m mocking him. The new troll has the potential to be more irritating because really, he’s going to try to run through every single one of the points that we’ve already debated a dozen times again?

  66. Argenti Aertheri

    “The new troll has the potential to be more irritating because really, he’s going to try to run through every single one of the points that we’ve already debated a dozen times again?”

    Maybe if we’re lucky we can end up solidly refuting them all and just citing those rebuttals next time? These things do seem to work in circles after all.

  67. I’m just gonna throw in that I’d use my real name too, if my real name were John Anderson. Big risk-taker here, guys.

  68. Argenti Aertheri

    My only thought on his real name being John Anderson is a Doctor Who quote —

    Biff: No one’s called John Smith! Come off it!

    That’s from Midnight, which features another baddie that makes me shudder more than the Daleks do (idk, maybe they are just too goofy to take seriously) — the baddies that go on killing sprees while remaining invisible get me the most though.

    You may now return to your regularly scheduled topic (if there still was one). /snark

  69. ShadetheDruid

    I’m just gonna throw in that I’d use my real name too, if my real name were John Anderson. Big risk-taker here, guys. – Cliff

    You mean your real last name isn’t Pervocracy? I am disappoint. :(

  70. I was thinking the same as Cliff – my name is literally unique, I am the only one person with my name in the whole world.

    After a year of starting to use this name I found out there’s a children’s book called Nat Fantastic about a superhero-boy who flies by the power of his farts.

    And after a year of starting my blog that’s called Forty Shades of Grey… yeeeah.

    So I guess having a unique real name is pretty good if it means you don’t get confused with the other ones.

    Also, Family of Blood are fucking terrifying

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