“If a woman woke up one day as a “cis” straight white male she would be horrified by her experience. It’s not a pleasant experience.”

Not everyone on earth is jumping to pay you six figures for letting them blow you? You poor dear.

Then I’d probably run outside to write my name in the snow

It’s funny. You live in this body your whole life, but you don’t think to do these things until someone talks about visiting :P

Hey, you can totally pee in nature as a woman. It’s just hard not to get it on your shoes. /furtherTMI

@NWO — re: hating men, not only are my best-friend and FWB both men, but I care way more about them than I will ever ever give a shit about you. You’re more a “people not to take remotely seriously” shit list type, because, well, you aren’t ever not full of shit. (This is intentionally a double negative as it really does take work to end up on my shit list, see the patience I’m given all the other trolls)

I’m going back to my Tolkien trolls now, they’re way more interesting than NWO.

I have to say, there are plenty of issues one could take up with Tolkien, especially from a modern perspective (Eowyn is pretty cool but the Arwen of the book is rather unimpressive, and yes, there aren’t many women in general who get to do important things, and there are some race issues, and the good people are pretty people and ugly people are evil idea is very strong in those books, as is the idea that goodness and suitability to lead is tied to genetics, which has obvious class implications), but if you think that the books are just a recitations of geneology…did you read The Silmarrilion rather than LOTR? Because that’s the only book that actually does read like the geneology bits of the Bible in parts (and that wasn’t an accident).

If you just hate that kind of book then that’s fine, but it’s a bit Debbie Downer to go on a rant about how crap books like that are in a thread that’s full of fans. Not to mention that the authors who you’re holding up as a better alternative have their own problems. McCaffrey, for example, is full of rape apologism, and I noticed that even when I first encountered her books at age 9. One can certainly choose to overlook that and enjoy the books anyway, but it’s there. Most authors have some questionable elements, especially if they started writing a long time ago. (For example, McCaffrey’s stuff got much less rapey over time, but some of the porn she wrote in the 70s is downright eyebrow-raising.)

I wanted to make a few comments, both on privilege and on the LOTR/Fantasy discussions.

First, privilege. I am cis, white, male, able, come from an upper-class background, and am read as straight (though I’m more queerishitscomplicatedillgetbacktoyoulatermaybe?). I and my partner (who is often read as straight female whenever we are seen together, and has a feminine name) both wrote letters to President Obama for Amnesty International’s letter writing campaign a while ago. I got a thank you note that was about a page and a half long, thanking me for my interest in the US signing UN human rights charters, and explaining what the president has done since he entered office. My partner received nothing. Not a thank you note, not even a we got your letter note. Now we both know that our letters never reached anyone above an intern, but the fact that my masculine name got me a letter while zie’s feminineish name didn’t was the first stark case to me of my privilege.

Now, onto the LOTR and fantasy.

I am a huuuge fan of LOTR, and I have to mention that Tolkien deliberately wrote his villains to be as un-approcheable as possible, as he fought in WWI and was horrified with the ease with which he could empathize with the young boys trying to kill him. Thus, the orcs were made to be distinctly different, and had no mentioned families or farms. His son discovered after Tolkien’s death that he had written about the family life of the orcs (they have wives and children too, in eastern Mordor), but couldn’t bring himself to put that into the story.

Also, I am a big fan of Tamora Pierce, author of the Alanna the Lioness books, as well as four other series (2 quartets, one duology and one trilogy in that order of writing) in that world, and the Circle of Magic books Lauralot mentioned. She started writing books with girls as knights and mages because she was tired of only boys getting to play with swords (or something like that). While her early books have some issues with noble savage and imperialism, they get better as she keeps writing, and fem-women become serious characters (a major problem with the Alanna series is all the ‘feminine’ acting women are either evil or airheads and useless, and only the rough and tough girls are good at anything).

Honestly, when I was reading in middle and high school I read books with girls as protagonists because they were often better written than fantasy with boys, mainly because I like characters to be characters, not super Marty Stues.

“…and I have to mention that Tolkien deliberately wrote his villains to be as un-approcheable as possible, as he fought in WWI and was horrified with the ease with which he could empathize with the young boys trying to kill him.”

Yeah, I was thinking that while watching Helm’s Deep, that it’s kind of good the orcs don’t look human, or watching the good guys fucking slaughter them would be less cheering and more cringing. Which may be why I’m currently avoiding watching the end battle…there are humans dying on both sides…

McCaffrey wrote porn short stories in the 70s when she wasn’t established yet, because it paid well. They’re pretty much all rapey as hell, the worst example being about a human girl who’s kidnapped by an alien race and taken to a planet where hot young human girls are used as sex slaves, and escapes, only to find an injured member of the alien race and rescue him, and then he rapes her. Which she initially fights but then starts to enjoy halfway through, and she isn’t angry at him afterwards, the implication is that they might become a couple. It’s that specific narrative – rape that the woman “surrenders” to partway through as romantic – that shows up multiple times in her writing. It’s icky (and very common in romance novels). I still loved her books as a child, but even as a child those parts made me stop and go “WTF did I just read?”.

Re-read the first time Brekke has sex with F’nor. He initially forces her, and she tries to fight him off, and then she “surprises” him with a big dramatic “surrender”. It’s a specific type of normalization of rape that’s so common that most people don’t even notice it happening.

Like I said, go back in time far enough and there’s horrible shit in books written by almost any beloved author. I stopped reading McCaffrey at a certain point, but she does seem to have dropped that stuff at some point in her career, presumably in reponse to changing social ideas about rape, so in a way I guess we can count that as a victory for feminism?

That should say Rohirrim with one eye, fail on my part.

@Lauralot

I didn’t even realise how problematic that phrase was til right now

@Argenti

While I agree that Sam’s romance was contrived, I think the whole story set up the other hobbits as more carefree and resilient than Frodo, so the fact that Frodo needed to leave and everyone else just wanted to go home seemed inevitable. Besides which, they all had family in the Shire too (IIRC everyone’s family survives including Gaffer), whereas Frodo isn’t close to any of his family aside from Merry (or is it Pip)

@Sharculese — no I hadn’t seen that casting call…wow… Idk on the one ring, Sam did carry it for a bit too, so I’d think not? But maybe.

@Dracula — “I think Frodo didn’t want Sam to needlessly give up on his aspirations out of loyalty.” — that could be it, given Frodo couldn’t get Sam to leave him despite trying twice (the first time Sam nearly drowned, forcing Frodo to grab him) — that would also explain why he made them think he was just seeing Bilbo off right until the last second though. Also, that wound doesn’t just nearly turn him into a wraith, Gandalf makes a point of noting it won’t ever really heal, he only survived because of Arwen and even then just barely (and this is literally the one thing Arwen does that isn’t all about Aragorn)

@Shadow — idk maybe? Pip is “a fool of a Took” though, so I don’t think he’s related to the Baggins. IIRC though whichever is related is like, a third cousin or something remote like that, so I’m not sure the names will help any. War never reaches the shire though, which might be another reason why Frodo can’t stay, his 3 hobbit companions are the only ones he could possibly talk to, and Sam was the only one with him for most of it.

FTR, even if the ending makes perfect sense, it’s still going to irk me, everyone but Frodo gets a happy ever after and he fucking earned his! (to anyone about to note he’s sailing with the elves — yes, and with Bilbo, who asked to see the ring on the way to the boat…it’s going to be one long trip)

I thought the fact that Frodo couldn’t stay in the Shire was basically an acknowledgement of the idea that you can’t always go back home, because if you’ve been through experiences that change you it doesn’t necessarily feel like home in the way that it did before. I thought it was a metaphor for what happened to a lot of war vets when they got home after seeing awful things and couldn’t ever really adjust to the life they’d lived before or the fact that the people around them would never be able to understand what had happened to them. It’s sad because in a lot of ways Tolkien is talking about himself, or his fellow veterans.

@Argenti Aertheri- I mean an actual superhero from the actual DC/ Marvel Universe.

It just seems like in a world where there are a lot of characters with assloads of awesome powers, all the female characters have powers that either play into stereotypical female gender roles (controlling people with mind powers, manipulating people, shapeshifting into different appearances to manipulate people, etc), or involves them HAVING to wear skin-tight bust-popping-out clothing.

And I don’t want the characters to be basically men with boobs, either. There’s got to be a way to have a character be both female and authentically cool without having to be bimbos or background characters. I just don’t know if that’s possible in our current society.

It’s good to know that my expectation that anybody who goes on about what “liberals” do in a conversation that hasn’t brought the word up until they bring it up is going to say something dumb, and likely contradicted by the very discourse about which they are expounding, is not going to be upset any time soon.

I do not expect that sentence to be grammatical, however.

Nanasha — sorry, I don’t really know my *superheros* — good luck finding one though.

Dracula —
“Sadly enough, in the book Arwen wasn’t involved in that scene at all. An elf named Glorfindal carries Frodo across the ford.” ARGH!!!! So really that’s only Arwen in the movies so she can meet up with Aragorn and it’s still all about Aragorn!

“It does in the book, sort of. But I don’t wanna give away too much if you haven’t read it.” — I did read the books but nearly a decade ago now, just give me a hint which army gets there? Or is it the Nazguls doing more damage than they do in the movies?

“And if it makes you feel any better, Sam does join Frodo in Valinor eventually.” — yes, it kind of does; I realize one cannot always go home, but the internet and I have been friendly since I was in grade school (I’m not that young, I’m that much of a geek) so it’s more the part where they’ll never speak again that really bothers me.

“If I remember correctly, Frodo is the orphaned son of a Baggins and a Brandybuck,” — is correct I think; but idk on — “and the Bagginses have some Took ancestry.”

And don’t apologize, I read my brother’s books and they’re 500 miles from me, as I know the movies aren’t that true to the books, I’m appreciating having your brain as a book reference :)

Now to try slogging through superbloop’s post…

superbloop —
before the — break: we already covered that class and ability, or disability, also need mentioned, and define “terrible country” — if you mean the places without internet, are they reading the article?

the rest:
“Hell, who says being a white male is easier than being a black female?” LOL!!! *every* black female? (though I think you meant woman of color there) — at least the use of female is consistent with your use of male though.

“Males get their ass handed to them in custody battles. Males don’t make as much money as females in the typical household, at least according to some studies.” — citations needed

“White straight males also can’t blame “the system” for their failures.” — and yet you do

“And anything socialy taboo is disdained, not just transvestites and homosexuals.” — except you don’t even know why “transvestites” was not wtf you wanted to say there…

“But because these inequalities are not part of the liberal agenda, they put on their blinders, and ignore them.” — literally the only equalities you may’ve pointed out both require citations, and are only possible if you’re straight! (eg straight privilege)

Rutee — “Wow, I’m not sure how to explain to you what an asshole you are for even pretending that gender and sexual identity are just ‘taboo’, as if they’re choices. Fuck you.” — I can’t tell if he means transvestite as in cross dresser or trans* — the former kind of is a choice (in that you could just cross dress in private) — he’d really need to figure out the difference before parsing that mattered though.

(FTR, which gender I’m dressed as depends on like, whether the wind is in the west? wow too much LoTR!)

At least I don’t call other people dumb when I can’t even use grammar correctly.

Is that so?

Oh, and whenever or not you are transexual.

Like conservatives, liberals only focus on their “pet issues”, and this post and the reactions towards it proves it.

There is no affermitive action for white males. Males get their ass[es] handed to them in custody battles

There’s the grammar fail.

But because these inequalities are not part of the liberal agenda, they put on their blinders, and ignore them.

Rationality at its finest!

And there’s calling people dumb. Don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.

I also actually present this rare, interesting thing known as an “argument”.

If only your argument were as good as you thought it was.