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Hey girl, I wish you were a greasy smear on the road: The Men’s Rights subreddit hates on the lady rescued by Ryan Gosling.

Oh, the Men’s Rights subreddit is on a roll! Earlier in the week, as regular readers will already be well aware, a sizeable number of the regulars there were waxing indignant about a spermburgling girlfriend who turned out to be imaginary, and expressing sympathy for the imaginary girlfriend’s imaginary boyfriend, even though he’d admitted to punching her in her imaginary stomach.

Now they’re directing their wrath at a British journalist whom they’ve decided is being insufficiently grateful for being rescued from being hit by a speeding automobile by Ryan Gosling.

The backstory: Earlier in the week, British journalist Laurie Penny was wandering the streets of Manhattan, lost in thought, when she almost stepped off the curb into the path of a taxi. A man standing nearby grabbed her and pulled her to safety. That man happened to be famously hunky young actor Ryan Gosling.

Naturally, Penny tweeted about it, and her tweet aroused something of a Twitterstorm, in part because of the novelty of the situation, and in part because the thought of someone so dashing performing this little act of urban heroism made more than a few ladies (and men) swoon a little. I would probably react the same way if I heard a story about Kate Winslet saving a kitten.

Anyway, Penny was a little bit overwhelmed by all the attention her story was getting, and ended up writing a funny, spiky little essay for Gawker reminding people that while, yes, Ryan Gosling had indeed done a very nice thing for her, for which she was grateful, that it wasn’t really the biggest deal in the world. For one thing, she pointed out, lots of ordinary decent people perform similar acts of “heroism” all the time. For another, there are bigger heroes out there – like those working tirelessly to keep Rick Santorum from becoming our next president.

She ended the piece with this:

I really do object to being framed as the ditzy damsel in distress in this story. I do not mean any disrespect to Ryan Gosling, who is an excellent actor and, by all accounts, a personable and decent chap. …

But as a feminist, a writer, and a gentlewoman of fortune, I refuse to be cast in any sort of boring supporting female role, even though I have occasional trouble crossing the road, and even though I did swoon the teeniest tiniest bit when I realized it was him. I think that’s lazy storytelling, and I’m sure Ryan Gosling would agree with me.

And the thing is, I’m sure he would. I’m sure he’s as embarrassed about the attention as Penny is.

Well, for some people, Penny’s refusal to play the “boring supportive role” was simply unacceptable. Over on The National Review, antifeminist asshole Suzanne Venker wrote a snide and misleading piece portraying Penny as an ungrateful bitch:

If Western women want to know where all the good men have gone, they need only look in the mirror. Not only can men no longer hold the door open for women or pay the check after dinner, they can’t even save a woman’s life and get a simple thank you.

Never mind that Penny wrote explicitly that she was “grateful to the dashing and meme-worthy Mr. Gosling.” We can conclude that Venker either has terrible reading comprehension, or is deliberately lying about Penny. In any case, she continued on in this vein:

Feminists have totally destroyed the relationship between the sexes. Not all women seek the feminized version of the American male. Most women like big, strong, sexy men. They want men who are willing to put out fires, fight in combat, and, yes, even save damsels in distress. But in post-feminist America, Marlboro Man is a rare breed. We can thank women like Penny for that.

Well, actually, the reason the Marlboro Man isn’t around any more is that he died of lung cancer. (Well, to be more specific, two of the actors who portrayed the Marlboro Man did in fact die that way.) But let’s continue:

If Americans don’t wake up to the evils of feminism, the next time a woman walks down the wrong side of the street, the men of America will simply walk right past her and let her get hit.

And we’ll have no one blame but ourselves.

Really? Really? I’m pretty sure that Penny’s Gawker essay isn’t actually going to turn American men into a bunch of woman-hating psychopaths. I think we can all agree that Venker is being a giant turd here.

Well, not all of us, I guess. Someone posted Venker’s little screed to the Men’s Rights subreddit – you were wondering when I’d get back to them, weren’t you? And the regulars responded, well, like you would expect them to. Here are two of the most highly upvoted comments there, from two of the subreddit’s most prolific posters.

Stay classy. Men’s Rights Redditors!

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Posted on April 6, 2012, in alpha males, antifeminism, antifeminst women, chivalry, douchebaggery, lying liars, men's rights women's auxilary, misandry, misogyny, MRA, reactionary bullshit, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 273 Comments.

  1. This is not the case with feudalistic lords- they everything to lose and almost nothing to gain if the peasants suddenly revolted and created some utopian fief.

    Oh really? Even with the obligations and stresses of feudalistic lordship breathing down their necks? The expectations of their parents? Being forced to marry and reproduce and all the boring ceremonies and stuff? Utopian life sounds grand in comparison, when you think about it, don’t it, Farson?

  2. This is not the case with feudalistic lords- they everything to lose and almost nothing to gain if the peasants suddenly revolted and created some utopian fief.

    Dude, again, if you’re talking about fiefdoms, ur doin’ it wrong; feudalism as you learned it did not really happen. The fact that peasant revolts could ruin the system are why the peasants kept a lot of rights that people forget about. They’re just fucking meaningless without an infrastructure, and they weren’t as good as those fought for later. But seriously, this view that people were born in shit and died in shit, toiling away as slave labor? Not historically accurate.

    they’re better off than women, but still worse off than they’d be in a gender equitable society.

    This isn’t really certain. They’d lose their exalted status. It’s possible it’d be better for men and the loss of privilege would not be that painful because women working better means more economic opportunities as well, but again, uncertain and not guaranteed.

  3. Nevertheless, I’ll think about what was said here. I sort of wish you wouldn’t refer to me as a “jackass”, though; I respect your opinions a lot and I’m trying to dialogue in good faith. I mean, if we can’t talk respectfully without getting hostile, what’s the point?

    I do civility when I feel like it. I don’t fucking feel like it after being a cis white dude explained to me how racism and sexism work. If you don’t like being called a jackass, don’t be one, rather than expecting me to be civil while you are being one.

  4. Robert Farson

    a. Though I am cis and male, I’m not white. I didn’t think it was all that relevant, but since it’s apparently important to you, I’ll oblige.

    b. I was as clear as I possibly could, and I said many times, that I was merely putting forth my own disorganized observations and was essentially asking for input. I got it- some from you- and I value it. Thank you. But I say again- if we can’t talk without resorting to hostility at the slightest provocation or the most trivial disagreement, there’s no point. That’s one of the reasons I stopped commenting on PZ Myers’ blog. Smart folks, definitely, but it’s just an unpleasant atmosphere.

    Personally, I’m convinced men would benefit greatly from gender equity. I mean, in a tangible economic sense, who knows, but it’s much more than that. With women working and men helping with the housework you’d have a lot of DINKs. I believe that the majority of fathers would feel more fulfilled if they were encouraged to spend time with their kids. I think that relieving men from masculine gender roles would have enormous psychological benefit. Violent crime would go down, which means less men victimized by said crime.

    Seriously, I could keep going, but you get the idea. I don’t think there’s any question that men stand to benefit.

    I appreciate the discussion we’ve had.

  5. >>>do you think that a feminist-friendly men’s movement is desirable?

    It already exists. It’s called feminism.

  6. Let’s see, so far we’ve got:

    race-splainin’

    what about the men?

    tone trolling

    please educate me

    We’re almost at BINGO, folks.

  7. @Maya

    Also wanted to give you a headsup: Ozy is genderqueer and responds to the pronoun zie, not she.

  8. Poor Robert Farson. Landed smack dab in the middle of a hate group. This would be an excellent site for young boys to visit to learn how much they’ll be hated their entire lives by women.
    ————–
    @Rutee Katreya
    “There is some hostility to stay at home dads, but you’re seriously underestimating the tiny little factor that it’s women’s work. There’s no glamour in it, it’s low status, tiring, and thankless.”

    Guess what? Every single man who has ever lived on his own has done what you call, “womens work.” Tiring? Contrary to the bogus, “study” of it being worth like 80K a year, It’s the easiest job in the world. At the most it takes an hour a day. I’m sure you consider having to stir the microwave taters at 3 minutes before nuking them another 3 minutes horribly oppressive.

    No one’s dragging a washboard and bucket down to the stream to do laundry. Why it must take 10 minutes or so to wash/dry and fold laundry. I do it all the time. Are ya killing a chicken and plucking it? Are ya chopping wood for your stove? Keeping the home fires burning consists of turning the thermostat up or down. You poor things.

    Child care is another bogus lie. If you know how to feed yourself, clean yourself and care for yourself, that is the exact skill set needed. Everyone can do it. It’s not like everyone is a helpless newborn for 18 years. Pack a lunch for little Johnny and off to school he goes, hubby’s off to work to the real low status, tiring, and thankless job. By around 8:30 or 9:00AM the rest of the day is free.

    And this is what modern women call oppression? What say we spend the next five thousand years of women working all the outside jobs and men staying at home being oppressed. And let’s not forget that when you gals get home from those filthy, dangerous, low paying jobs, you have to praise men for all our hard labor. Ya gotta sex us all up real good as well or we’ll all talk about what a loser you are in bed and everywhere else. Just countless articles in the MSM about how much women suck and how great men are!
    ———————-
    @Shaenon
    “Everyone knows that Amanda Marcotte and Jessica Valenti are two of the wealthiest and most powerful women in America, thanks to the millions of dollars funneled to them by the Secret Feminist Cabal.”

    Top of the political heap. Obama/black, Biden/middle eastern, Hillary/woman. Top of the economic heap. Rothchilds, Rockefellers, Soros, ect, all middle eastern descent. Top of the media heap Time Warner, Disney, Murdoch’s News Corporation, Bertelsmann of Germany, and Viacom. Other than Murdoch, all middle eastern. As in non-white, non-christian, but they are men. Oil, and all large corporations, insurances, banking. Morgan, Moan & Loab, ect. All owned by people of middle eastern descent.

    Perhaps you feminists should do a little research before pointing the finger of blame at white European men. At the top of the heap, there aren’t any white European men.

    Feminism is funded by every western government and our UN based world headquarters. That’d be billions of dollars floated towards womens privilege and entitlement every year, not millions.
    ——————–
    @abeegoesbuzz
    “We have an MRM that’s full of dudebros and brodudes who want to fight over who’s got the more submissive foreign wife and claim that any discussion over whether men should be allowed to wear skirts or cry openly distracts from their mission of denying that rape exists, and you think that men seek out the MRM because they wish they could get in touch with their “feminine side”?

    Dudebros? A hate slur. Pretty typical of women nonchalantly ridiculing men while expecting love, respect and deference in return. Teach me all about womens greater empathy. Yes, skirts and weeping in public. Such a major concern. Women wear skirts and fancy clothes to sexually manipulate. And they use tears to emotionally manipulate. It’s not a secret. Men and women are different.
    ——————
    “To be clear, white-people stereotypes definitely put whites in a better place than minority stereotypes.”

    Women are such coddled little creatures. Reality is quite the opposite of your privileged notions and what you feel to be true. Having traveled all over for the past eight years where the disposable mooks, (men) are employed, let me paint the picture that is reality. When you drive past all those stinky areas of any large city where you hold your nose and try to hold back the bile in your throat. That’s filled with men working low paid, mentally and physically exhausting jobs.

    Not too likely that any of you will ever go down by the rivers that flow thru most major cities, but along the river are thousands of tiny little and large factories where men of every race work. They breath in toxic waste, they labor long hours, they lose their limbs and die many years earlier than women. It’s quite the diverse bunch along the underbelly of society. The one thing they have in common is they’re all men.

    Oh, there’s a few women in each company, they’re easy to spot by their fine clothing, jewelry and perfume. They have made up middle management positions in human resources, mandated by the State to fill a quota. It might double the price of your consumables but that’s the price that must be paid for womens “careers” as oppossed to mens manual labor.

    According to feminist theory, given the chance, women should be beating down the door to be employed in these filthy, dangerous jobs that are the actual jobs that make the world go around. All those fine conveniences you take for granted are built by the mooks. Since we have stats that women did far more of those manual labor jobs 50 years ago, and 50 years before that, we see that modern women refuse to do any manual labor when given the choice. Women refuse to do manual labor to support men or a man. This is a fact.

    As always, women look to the top to see whose oppressed when you should be looking to the bottom. It’s an all mens club down at the bottom. Just chock full of white men, by the way. And since at the very top, there are no white european men, you’re doubly wrong. In the western world there are really two distinct classes, kinda like the time machine. Women are the finely clothed eloi living above ground, and men are the dirty morlocks working underground in sewers, mines and factories whose back breaking labor feeds, houses and clothes the eloi.
    ——————-
    Sorry about the long post, Dave, but since I am the moderated man I have little choice. It’s the price a man pays for defying a goddess.

  9. @Rutee, feel free to derail and talk about feudalistic roles if you like. :) Also, discussions about feudalism probably aren’t where I am going to get er…passionate (i.e. pissed off)

    I do know that role expectations weren’t as one sided as a lot of people think, the higher ranks were supposed to have obligations to the lower ranks (though enforcement or lack thereof got tricky at times), and medieval feudalism involved less direct interference than renaissance feudalism did. Post Renaissance British law often explicitly analogizes husband-wife to master-servant and king-vassal. Servants and vassal had more legal rights than slaves (which, sadly a look at US historical law makes brutally clear), but still institutionally less.

    @ Robert, I was trying it out as an analogy for the concept of defined subordinate roles. I don’t like to use slavery as an analogy because 1) I’m not black, 2) though I am not entirely white, I look really white, which makes using slavery as an analogy even more problematic, 3) the role of white women in racist and slave owning communities vs. the role of black women and enslaved women (or enslaved men) can make the analogy seem dismissive of the realities of slavery and white women’s complicity in it. I don’t use slavery as an analogy not as a statement about the value of that analogy either way, but because it’s typically not my analogy to make. I do try-I have been trying-to avoid analogizing to current oppressions that I am not the subject of. Feudalism has more historical and emotional distance, and we can talk about the lingering effects of feudalistic systems or the scope and reality of those systems, without running into the social and emotional pitfalls of having a non-black person use black history, experience, and oppression as analogy.

    Also, the notion that oppression of women is only worth ending if that benefits men is pretty fucking fucked up.

  10. Hey Robert-here is a tip, if you go onto a website called Manboobz, an obviously silly title, do not expect people to want to automatically talk about serious topics. Especially if it says “we mock certain people.” Nor should you expect anyone to be nice to you-this blog has been around for quite some time and you are not the first person to come on here and be Oh so concerned about those poor men and most of the time, turns out to be yet another troll.

    Sorry if that hurts your feelings to not have people treat you with kid gloves but there is more to the reaction then people just being jerks because they can. And let me tell you, if you cannot handle someone being rude online, how do you think you will handle activism where people will not always be “OH MY GOD YOU ARE SO RIGHT LET ME PUT ALL OF MY RESOURCES AT YOUR DISPOSAL.”

  11. @princessbonbon:

    Hmm… I should make a “jaded kirby” icon. Though I don’t really know what object or outfit a stereotypical jaded person would have…

  12. Kirby: A bottle with x’s on it.

  13. I never know what to make of someone like Robert: He says he cares about men’s issues but he actually just seems to want to argue about why sexism is totally not like racism. How does that help men?

    Robert, what’s an example of a specific men’s issue you’d like to see addressed? We might have a more productive conversation if we knew what you were actually trying to accomplish.

  14. I feel bad because the first thing I thought was “make a green Kirby Kirby.”

    Because jaded always made me think “encased in jade.” And I am most familiar with green jade.

  15. Why it must take 10 minutes or so to wash/dry and fold laundry. I do it all the time.

    Really, Mr Slave? That’s unbelievably fast!

  16. NWO, are there any men in your limited view of the world who DON’T work in factories or mines? Are there any women who work, according to you? Except for HR and in fine silky drawers, that is. What do you think I do?

  17. Sorry about the long post, Dave, but since I am the moderated man I have little choice. It’s the price a man pays for defying a goddess.

    i find this to be the funniest part of the post. Has he forgotten what his posts pre-moderation were like?

  18. Why it must take 10 minutes or so to wash/dry and fold laundry. I do it all the time.

    Really, Mr Slave? That’s unbelievably fast!

    Yeah. Washing my laundry takes the 30 minutes it’s in the washer plus the time it takes to haul them up and down the stairs. If the garment isn’t something you can put in the dryer (most bras and the majority of what I’d consider stuff that’s okay to wear to a low-level office job) it’s got to be hung up to dry too.

    Maybe he just washes his boxers in the sink? o.O

  19. Kendra, the bionic mommy

    Child care is another bogus lie. If you know how to feed yourself, clean yourself and care for yourself, that is the exact skill set needed. Everyone can do it. It’s not like everyone is a helpless newborn for 18 years. Pack a lunch for little Johnny and off to school he goes,

    Thanks for the advice, NWO. Just feed them and bathe them. I sure do appreciate it when people who aren’t parents tell actual parents how to raise kids. If you haven’t stayed up all night with a colicky baby, chased a toddler around the house getting him out of trouble all day, broken up sibling squabbles in the backseat while you’re driving, or dealt with a temper tantrum in a public place, then you don’t know the reality of raising children.

    According to feminist theory, given the chance, women should be beating down the door to be employed in these filthy, dangerous jobs that are the actual jobs that make the world go around. All those fine conveniences you take for granted are built by the mooks.

    Women make up the majority of workers in dirty, low paying caregiving jobs. You imagine all women as working at high paying office jobs, rather than working at a daycare for minimum wage, waiting tables, or cleaning bedpans at a hospital. Men usually don’t want these jobs, because they have crappy pay and low status. They can make better money in construction, factories, or skilled trades. The dads working as plumbers, machine techs, and electricians couldn’t do their jobs if they didn’t have someone (usually a woman) to take care of their kids for them.

  20. The thing is, NWOslave, I have a vagina and I *have* worked those jobs.

    My first ever job was as a maid in a hotel. Cleaned up people’s spit around sinks, used condoms, and dumped out glasses full of tobacco spit juice.

    I worked on grounds crew every summer for 3 years in college. I hauled rocks, pulled weeds, picked up trash, you name it.

    Post college, I worked at a variety of food service jobs. That went on for about, oh, four years or so. I was the chick that made your coffee, washed your dishes, and put your pizza together at Pizza Hut. I was a hostess for a while too.

    Are you *sure* I’ve never done any manual labor? Or does it only count if I risk death every day?

  21. Nnn, the main problem is that feudalism as it’s commonly understood really didn’t exist for very long outside certain parts of Germany, some of France(/Berry/Bourbon/etc) and England. It’s really, really, *really* a hot button for my girlfriend XD

    Actually she was pretty rage-y at just Crusader Kings 2, which portrays, well, all of Europe working based on this understanding. Which is really weird, Paradox knows better, I’m sure. That and just how damn centralized and stable the HRE is.

    And i’ts not just that vassals had rights; people pretty commonly don’t know just how much power the peasant class wielded. And not just the merchants either; the simple fact of the matter is that kings were constrained a lot by what would, for instance, piss off the mayors (Who were elected! So what pissed off a lot of people by default pissed them off!) The middle ages are really weird to talk about for this sort of thing.

  22. Maybe he just washes his boxers in the sink? o.O

    That might explain it! But then how does he get them to dry so fast? Mr Slave please enlighten me, here I am spending hours doing laundry when I could be done with the whole thing in 10 minutes. Don’t hold out on us.

  23. Tulgey Logger

    owlyslave said:

    This would be an excellent site for young boys to visit to learn how much they’ll be hated their entire lives by women.

    lol. Hey nwoslave, could you find me just one thing here on manboobz, just one statement, that derides men just for being men?

    Because it seems awful odd that an anti-man hate site is both run by a man and gets frequent comments from an audience that’s about 50% male.

    It would sure be nice of you, owly.

  24. I don’t think Othomsom was seriously wishing death on her.

  25. Yeah, it’s a funny thing. See, I’m a man, and I’m not really feeling all that hated here, Slavey. I daresay I’m rather well liked, actually.

    But then, it’s obvious you’re conflating “man” with “bitter misogynistic hate-spewing asshole”, as usual.

  26. @Dracula

    I daresay I’m rather well liked, actually

    Well, it is a good time to be a vampire :)

  27. Biden’s from Delaware; perhaps Slavey has confused the middle of the East Coast with the Middle East?

  28. Biden/middle eastern

    ?

    Delaware is kind of in the middle of the eastern coast of the US?

    …I got nothing.

  29. Aw, man, ninja’d! :-p

  30. It took us both exactly 20 minutes to think of that.

  31. Tulgey Logger

    Well, since Owly says the Rockefellers and Roth[s]childs are also of “middle eastern” background, and the only “middle eastern” background I can find for them is conspiracy websites pushing the idea that they’re of Jewish descent (I don’t know if it’s true or not, I’m just sayin’), I’m guessing Owly means Biden is also of Jewish descent.

  32. It took us both exactly 20 minutes to think of that.

    Heh, yup.

    I’m still trying to come up with alternate explanations. Best guesses so far include “Well, he’s Irish Catholic. Ireland starts with an I, as do several countries in the Middle East, so they’re basically the same thing!” and “Joe Lieberman is Jewish. All people named Joe are secretly the same person, so we can logically conclude that Biden is also Jewish and therefore Middle Eastern, as are the Pope, Stalin, Goebbels, the main character in Little Women, and that irritating plumber dude,” but mostly I’m favoring “NWO is completely unhinged.”

    (Also, it’s sad that I’m so used to NWO’s awfulness by now that the “Jewish or supposedly-Jewish people are all ‘Middle Eastern’ and non-white” thing didn’t even faze me.)

  33. Teach me all about womens greater empathy. Yes, skirts and weeping in public. Such a major concern.

    It’s true, slaveman — I was thinking primarily of you when I wrote that most MRAs actually don’t give a shit about letting men act in traditionally unmasculine ways. Thanx for backing me up on that. I’m sure Farson will find your hatred of men educational.

  34. CassandraSays

    “Teach me all about womens greater empathy. Yes, skirts and weeping in public. Such a major concern. Women wear skirts and fancy clothes to sexually manipulate. And they use tears to emotionally manipulate. It’s not a secret. Men and women are different.”

    So now Slavey thinks that the idea that women have more empathy than men is based on the fact that women wear skirts? (See-through miniskirts, as we’ve previously established.) I am curious as to how that would work. Is this why he hates Ozy, because he thinks that if men wear skirts they’ll be forced to display empathy and since Ozy likes men in skirts (so do I, actually) she’s trying to do horrible things to them? Which would make sense if it wasn’t clear that Slavey does think empathy is a good thing, he just doesn’t believe that women have any.

    You know when you’re at a bar or a party and some really drunk person keeps babbling incoherently in your ear? Reading Slavey’s is kind of like that, with bonus rants about how women should start punching each other in the nose.

  35. CassandraSays

    Zie, not she – sorry! Typing too fast.

  36. Reasons I have worn skirts in my adult life:

    – Because it was a warm day with a nice breeze, so a skirt was the most comfortable choice.
    – Because a skirt looked nice with the top I was planning to wear.
    – Because I was going to the sort of event where a skirt was part of the expected attire.
    – Because it was part of a costume of some sort.
    – Because I was going contradancing, where virtually everyone, male and female, wears skirts because they are by far the most comfortable and pleasant contradancing attire.
    – Because I felt like it.

    Reasons I have cried in public in my adult life:

    – Because I was sad.
    – Because I was watching a sad movie.
    – Because I was cutting onions.

    Reasons that have literally never occurred to me as reasons to wear a skirt or cry:

    – To demonstrate empathy. Somehow.
    – To manipulate people.

    Seriously, Slavey, why do you always go with the weirdest explanation when there are incredibly straightforward ones available? Maybe women cry to manipulate people…or maybe they’re sad! Maybe they wear skirts to manipulate people…or maybe they like skirts! Why does absolutely everything have to be some sort of bizarre conspiracy?

    Incidentally, Slavey, my partner and I are long-distance right now. Generally, when we part at the airport, both of us end up crying a little. Is he manipulating me? Am I manipulating him? Are we both manipulating each other? What are we manipulating each other to do?

    (Also, he tears up so badly around freshly-cut onions that he literally had to leave the building to stop crying last time I made a dinner involving onions. Clearly he was manipulating me to…um…I would say “not cook with onions” but he loved the dish involving onions and begs me to make it for him as often as possible, so I’m pretty stumped. But it was definitely MANIPULATION, right, Slavey?)

  37. In my experience, women are on average more empathetic. But it’s not some magic womanly magic, it’s because women are taught to be empathetic and men are taught to be unempathetic as part of social roles.

  38. But it was definitely MANIPULATION, right, Slavey?

    Only women manipulate men, in slave world.

  39. Maya Lovelace

    Because MRAs are never manipulative at all.

  40. Dave, I thought your portrayal of the men’s rights redditors was too antagonistic and can’t possibly be summed by that one quote. Naturally, that reaction was extreme, but certainly not all the commentators there would have that knee jerk reaction to it. I think the real issue didn’t really lie within the MRA’s perception but why she felt so offended about the headline. The truth was, she was in trouble, and for a brief moment, a man stepped in to help. All women shouldn’t be pigeonholed into that circumstance, but when we are, we shouldn’t be ashamed. Yes, we shouldn’t rely on men all the time, but when it happens, the focus shouldn’t go to the gender of the savior, just the deed itself. I think the misunderstanding of the whole thing started with Penny. Sometimes, man or woman, we all need some help. Not everyone has the same agenda in mind.

  41. NWO:

    You haven’t actually read Well’s “The Time Machine” have you? I suggest you do so before comparing men to Morlocks.

  42. One thing I don’t understand…

    Small owls are cute. Big owls are imposing. Medium owls are a bit of both. Owls are intelligent birds, associated with the goddess Athena and considered symbols of wisdom.

    How did a mysogynistic troll with the IQ of a kumquat, no connection with reality and a persecution complex the size of Jupiter get the nickname Owly?

  43. @Enid
    If she has been “so offended”, that would be the meat of the article she wrote, and not just a couple of lines near the end. But instead, the article was about how this whole thing was getting far too much press coverage merely because Ryan Gosling is famous, and that there are plenty of non-famous people that also help others without it becoming this big thing. She was not a damsel in distress being snatched from the jaws of death by a big celebrity, she is kind of aloof and a nice person helped her, nothing more than that.

  44. I wouldn’t mind being rescued by Ryan Gosling….

  45. NWO said:

    “Why it must take 10 minutes or so to wash/dry and fold laundry. I do it all the time.”

    If you think it only takes ten minutes to do a week’s laundry for a family then you have no idea what you are talking about. I also strongly suspect that your mother does your laundry for you or you wouldn’t be saying anything so stupid.

  46. @Polliwog,

    Totally agree with all those reasons to wear skirts.

    As for crying? I tend to do it whenever I’m overcome by a very strong emotion. Mostly when I’m very sad or very angry, or some combination of the two, but sometimes when I’m very scared, or even when I’m really happy. Manipulation never figures into it, and I get annoyed when people sometimes think that’s why I’m doing it because I honestly hate crying.

  47. >>people pretty commonly don’t know just how much power the peasant class wielded.

    An important part of the rise of capitalist industrialism was the destruction of the power of the free peasantry by expropriating them. That’s when you get all those noble and bourgeois economists decrying the fact that peasants lived the good life without having to work hard, and that “poverty is necessary for industriousness”.

  48. This is probably giving NWO too much benefit of the doubt, but hey, I’m a nice person like that.

    Maybe he thinks housework doesn’t take much time because his housework doesn’t take much time. He lives alone and claims that he’s away from home on business a lot of the time–and that’s about the only thing he says on a regular basis that isn’t patent nonsense, so I’m willing to take it as true. So maybe he just doesn’t spend enough time at home to mess it up very much? I also live alone and don’t generate a lot of housework for myself. I do about one load of laundry per week, and if you’re only counting the time I am physically interacting with the clothes–as opposed to the time machines are taking care of it–as time spent “doing laundry”…then yes, 10-20 minutes seems about right. And the bulk of that time is folding it/hanging it up, which plenty of housework-impaired people don’t do–they just take their clothes right out of the laundry basket each day.

    Of course, that doesn’t excuse his arrogance and narcissism in not realizing that if you are doing the housework for several people, some of them children, the time required is going to explode. All I’m saying is that maybe he’s not pulling his ideas about it directly from his ass.

  49. “Maybe he thinks housework doesn’t take much time because his housework doesn’t take much time.”

    Maybe it’s cos he does a half assed job at his housework?

  50. It would certainly be in character for him. But I try not to judge, because I also do a half-assed job at housework.

  51. Robert: @Cassandra- Well, what do you propose to do about it?

    Nothing. Your groups image problems aren’t our problem. If you don’t like that Elam and AVfM get more notice than the groups you think are mainstream (and they get that notice in part because when someone comes to a place like Manboobs, or Shakesville, etc. and says, “why don’t you pay attention to the moderates” they then point to AVfM and Elam), than it’s up to you to fix it.

    Just as, insomuch as it needs fixing, it’s up to those feminists who disagree to deal with Radfems; or not.

  52. In re r/mensrights: Don’t hate us because we’re A W E S O M E ! ! !

    I wish we could hate you for being awesome.

  53. @Halite, I know you commented like 2 days ago but if you’re still following the thread then OMG CALGZ BUDDIES!!!

  54. Robert: As for Farrell, it’s my understanding that quote was taken out of context

    Doesn’t really seem likely.

    Here’s a link to the text, and the pragraph in question.

    Farrell realizes the risks that attend publication of this book. “In a society where men are powerful and exploitive and insensitive to women’s feelings, which is reinforced by female adaptiveness and a daughter’s lack of power, data like these can be used as an excuse for the continuation and magnification of that exploitation. When I consider that, I almost don’t want to write the book.”

    Since neither victim nor benefactor needs Farrell’s confirmation, why does he gamble with bringing on a sexual deluge? “First, because millions of people who are now refraining from touching, holding, and genitally caressing their children, when that is really part of a caring, loving expression, are repressing the sexuality of a lot of children and themselves. Maybe this needs repressing, and maybe it doesn’t. My book should at least begin the exploration.

    As to the question of, “men’s spaces” where they can challenge roles, etc. How are you going to foster it? I can do that here. I can do it in my blog (and have). I can do it at Shakes, or Amanda Marcotte’s blog. I can do it in pretty much any “feminist” space I’ve ever been in.

    I’ve never seen it doable in a “male dominated space” No, that’s not true, some of it can be done in some subsets of the Army; but those are very much atypical, and some of it is because the Army has a lot of “women’s work” which is performed by men. Those men want to avoid stigma, and so there is some serious challenge to the ideas.

    But, and this is part of where I think the idea of such a dedicated, “men’s space” fails. the larger culture makes it hard for those ideas to move outside the limited space of the Army, even to the families of those soldiers. Only, IMO, with the increase of women in the ranks, doing “manly” jobs, while men still do, “feminine jobs” has that started to work back.

    Equality, as an example, spreads.

    I understand the thing you want to do (and I don’t think you are being unreasonable, in general), but I don’t think there is a way to make the thing you want happen, whereas the flipside (men engaging, in good faith, in women’s spaces) seems functionally to achieve your ends.

    It just requires men (many of whom are massively resistant) to accept not being in the drivers’ seat.

    As feudalism: It didn’t spring up, fully-formed. It was a trending of social pressures; related to the change in the way Rome worked (from a coinage/tax-based autocracy, to a barter/labor based one, with a concommitant diminuition of scale). It took centuries for the various ways that played out (depending on local abilities to maintain a “Roman” way of life, and the social politics of the powerholding groups as Rome lost sway).

    There never was “a feudalism”, there were lots of similar styles of oath-fealty, which for the sake of convenience we lump together.

    But the “laws” we see imposing it are codifications of conditions, not iniatioins ex nihilo

  55. And NWO speaks a truth: Poor Robert Farson. Landed smack dab in the middle of a hate group. This would be an excellent site for young boys to visit to learn how much they’ll be hated their entire lives by women.

    It doesn’t say what he thinks it does, but it’s true, nonetheless.

  56. Hesster: Owls are intelligent birds, associated with the goddess Athena and considered symbols of wisdom.

    Associated yes. Smart, in fact? Not so much.

    I like owls. I’ve known a few pretty well. They aren’t all that smart. Pigeons probably outscore them in the brains dept. Which is perhaps unfair, because Columba columba is a pretty smart bird.

    But NWO got it because NWOslave is easy to misread as, “OWLslave”.

    Or somesuch. It’s been going on as long as I’ve been here, and that’s been… shit, more than a year. I feel old.

  57. Back to, “feudalism”. A peasantry which was unhappy… meant no surplus of food. No surplus of food meant no means to support those large households.

    Feudalism, the way we think of it, is a largely Germanic/Frankish object. It came to England with the Normans (who had adopted/adapted the Scandanavian thralldom, to the Frankish system, and then imported it to England, where it was superimposed on Anglo-Saxon systems). But lots of places didn’t have it that way.

    Liguria started to have it, and then it faded. Spain never managed it; though they adopted trappings. Fealty also ran down. A “noble” who didn’t protect “his” peasantry, didn’t have them long. The cities… they had their own rights, charters and abilities to assert independence; which only increased as “feudalism” became more solid.

    That’s because cities were the places in which money/goods were made (and I mean made. The livre tournois was a coin, made in Tours, we talked about the use of the coins of Troyes the other day, as well as the Bremenish export of, “easterling silver (at .925 parts silver, to .75 parts copper). There were also the florin (from Florence) and the Spanish thaler (which was based on the German family of Fugger (which minted it’s own coins because they associated themselves with the house of Hapsburg, when they were in Augsburg, and then spread out. When the Hapsburgs became the rulers of Spain, they moved along with them).

    So the social landscape was complicated. Peasants who were pissed off could do all sorts of damage (weiring streams, or diverting them; stopping drainage; which would degrade pasturage, etc.).

  58. Kirby:

    Or

  59. Wasn’t that a problem they had in making the Harry Potter movies? Training owls, I mean, because they’re really not all that bright.

    With women working and men helping with the housework you’d have a lot of DINKs.

    Robert, small point here: if men are doing their fair share of the housework, they’re not “helping”. When you say “helping” it implies that housework is really women’s work and men’s contribution is merely assisting them. That’s not really fair to either men or women.

  60. @ Viscaria:
    I’m glad I checked back in to see what sort of dipshittery NWOslave was up to! I love the video (I can see my house!) but I have to admit that my love of tacky western crap runs deep. Last year at the Stampede I had to be physically restrained from buying a pair of stiletto heeled, snakeskin cowboy boots with like 3/4 of a pound of rhinestones on each. They were magnificent.

    I like this website for when I’m away at work and homesick, maybe you will too! http://thelivingbreathingstreet.com/

    @ NWOSlave:

    Not too likely that any of you will ever go down by the rivers that flow thru most major cities, but along the river are thousands of tiny little and large factories where men of every race work.

    Not mine! And I know this because I *live* on the main river the flows through my city.

    Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that you’ve never actually been in any sort of mine, ever. I’ve worked in four – oilsands, coal, potash and uranium – and they’re all very very safe, very clean, very *very* well paying jobs – for the men *and* women (it’s about a 70:30 ratio, for any given task) who work there. The hours are long, but that’s not exactly some sort of excessive hardship being suffered by the poor and oppressed among us. The educated professionals – engineers, geologists, etc – work the exact same hours as the hired-off-the-street truck drivers.

  61. RE: CassandraSpeaks

    Aw man, Califia, no.

    Dammit, I liked him too. :(

    In the discussion of the creation of men’s spaces… honestly, as a queer guy who is at this time mostly taken for a woman or a kid in middle school, I am extremely leery. Because I mentally envision any space made for that purpose as being mega-hostile to me, or at the very least utterly alien.

    My men’s space is a buddy who fist-bumps me and made the Cockbros Club with me. (The club involves random fist-bumping and declaring ourselves Cockbros for life.)

  62. Not too likely that any of you will ever go down by the rivers that flow thru most major cities, but along the river are thousands of tiny little and large factories where men of every race work.

    NWO needs to learn that the rest of us aren’t living in the 19th century anymore.

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