Oh, Men’s Rights subreddit, will you ever learn? (Probably not.)
Sometimes I ask myself: what is it that I really hope to accomplish with this website, aside from entertaining myself and my readers, and exposing misogynist assholes for who they are. There’s a part of me that still hopes that someday, something I write will cause some misogynist and/or Men’s Rightser out there to develop a modicum of self-awareness, look at what they’ve been saying or doing, and say to themselves, “I’m really kind of a tool, aren’t I? Maybe I should stop.”
When the Southern Poverty Law Center report on the Men’s Rights movement came out, I hoped it might have a similar sort of effect. Or that, even if it didn’t persuade any MRAs out there that they were wrong, it might at least convince a few that they were going about things the wrong way. Nope. On the Men’s Rights subreddit, at least, it seems to have sent many of the regulars into an indignant tizzy, and they have doubled down on their peculiar brand of politics-by-whining-online.
Consider this post:
Yes, that’s right. Some Men’s Rights Redditors seem to think that the best way to convince the world that they’re not part of a hate group is to continue to celebrate a self-admitted child abuser who urged men to firebomb courthouses and police stations and kill people.
Then there’s this post, currently the top post on the subreddit:
Wow, if the Men’s Rights subreddit had anything to do with that, that would indeed be a victory. As one regular put it:
Thing is, I read r/mensrights pretty regularly, and I don’t remember any campaign there to protect the rights of fishermen in New Zealand.
Turns out that’s because the campaign, such as it was, consisted of one post some months back, which got all of 11 upvotes at the time. The current post in which r/mensrights congratulates itself for its “victory” has gotten, last I checked, 120 upvotes, more than ten times that. Simplecosine’s self-congratulatory comment in the new thread has gotten 36 upvotes. The comment in the original thread asking r/mensrightsers to send an email to the US Secretary of State’s office got … one upvote. In other words, only a handful of Men’s Rights Redditors even noticed the original post, much less sent along an email.
Reading one of the linked news articles makes clear the real reason the State Department opened an investigation: a six-month long, three-continent wide investigation by Bloomberg Businessweek revealing abuses in the industry.
The Men’s Rights subreddit: Taking Credit for Shit They Didn’t Do Since 2008.
And then there’s this post:
I’ve got nothing to say about this one — it’s basically self-refuting — except that I’m sort of bemused by the notion that the Southern Poverty Law Center is a “semi-women group.” Uh, what is that exactly? A group with some women in it? A group that doesn’t think women are all a bunch of evil bitches? The horror!
Oh, Men’s Rights movement. You’ll never change, will you?
EDITED TO ADD: And speaking of never changing, here’s how one Men’s Rights redditor responded to my comments there suggesting that maybe, just maybe, MRAs should actually denounce and distance themselves from someone calling for terrorism:
Let me just highlight that bit at the end again:
[T]he cost to the establishment to maintain the status quo in regards to divorce, custody, etc. must be made so high that it’s just no longer feasible. If that means instilling abject fear into the hearts of judges, cops and legislators by making them think their careers and/or lives could be forfeit unless they change their attitudes towards men, then so be it.
Trying to instill fear for one’s life in your opponents: that is the very definition of terrorism.
Posted on March 12, 2012, in actual activism, antifeminism, drama, grandiosity, hypocrisy, misogyny, MRA, MRA paradox, oppressed men, reddit, terrorism. Bookmark the permalink. 528 Comments.
That’s good to hear, Mags. But I doubt your MRA pals would agree. Look at how often they resort to emasculating their male opponents likening them to female genitals (and thereby implying that they are lesser men).
by likening*
Forgive me for being an irredeemable chauvinist, but how? I don’t mean to be sexist in any way, but I genuinely don’t see anything spectacular about being womanly. To me it’s mostly bad, and this is probably due to our conditioning in this society.
Could you please inform me? Once again, I don’t wish to offend you, I genuinely want to know the truth.
@BoggiDWurms- I think that being womanly is awesome if you think being womanly is awesome. If you don’t like being womanly, then being womanly kind of sucks.
But by using it as a disparaging term, you’re seeking to extend that qualification beyond yourself, and that’s really not your call. Just IMO.
What does it even mean to be “womanly”? does it mean sexy? because that only works if you’re conventionally beautiful and thin. If you’re chubby or an overweight or not so beautiful woman you will be mocked if you try to express your sexuality. Why do you think fat women are painted as non-sexual on TV or in movies (that is the rare time they actually appear in movies)
Or when they do express their sexuality its only for comedic effect?
@Quackers- Yeah, I mean, there’s that too. I was just using B’s terminology to try to make my point, but I should have put “womanly” in quotes because, as you say, it’s inherently subjective.
@kirbywarp
Well, yeah, in a way. Lifting marginalized groups pretty much always includes dismantling the unearned privilege of others, hence the backlash. But it’s more about helping folks than hurting anyone. The only “hurt” that comes in is when the privileged look around and start to notice that more folks are getting some of the stuff only “they” used to get. And for some people, it appears that that’s unconscionable.
oh no worries AVT, I wasn’t really addressing what you said in particular just kinda throwing in my own two cents on the topic. But yeah I do see what you’re trying to say regarding Boggi’s question.
I just think strict enforcement of stereotypical gender roles is harmful, and many people have different opinions on what being “womanly” or “manly” means anyway.
I ran across our “mile in her shoes” march a couple of weeks ago. I got the email about it a few days before, and it said men could wear heels or “slippers.” (They call flip-flops “slippers” here so I wasn’t sure how that would be in any way different from what the men always wear, but I did see some “fuzzy” slippers in the march. And flip-flops. And heels.) The email also stated that the intent is not to be offensive toward trans people, shame people etc., but to give men a genuine experience of what it’s like to “walk in her shoes.” All fine and good (there were trans people participating) but it’s really hard to train 20-year-old men to stop finding femininity icky and gross, and you know some guys just do it for a laugh.
Well, as I walked by the march there were lots of women holding supportive signs, and then there were a few guys whistling at the group, catcalling, etc. Immediately I thought, “That’s not good,” but then I realized that … hey … these guys are getting the REAL experience. Uncomfortable catcalls and all. I still don’t think it was a “good” thing, but … well, that’s what it’s like to walk around as a woman. Sort of.
And speaking of assaults on campus, I just got an email alert like, an hour ago. No, we don’t get tons of email alerts about sexual assaults on campus (maybe 4 or 5 in the last year), but with all the alcohol and bureaucracy, you just know that they’re not all getting reported. Either because the victim is too scared, too ashamed, thinks that it was their fault, etc.
(Of course, Owl et. al. are of the opinion that if a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to hear it, there never was any tree in the first place.)
@AVT
Actually, that’s a good question. What does Mags mean when she says “womanly”? What does Lauralot mean when she says “womanly”?
I have metaphysical and mystical notions of “masculine” and “feminine” that are different from common notions in our society. I know what society’s ideas of “womanly” are and they aren’t very positive. But are your ideas?
I think being womanly, however one defines it, is awesome if that is what one wants. I also think being manly, again, however that is defined, is awesome if that’s what the person wants.
@ostara321:
In a tangential way, that’s what I find so mind-boggling (and hilarious) about the argument that feminists want to “feminize men” and “masculinize women.” Well, when you have an intense gender-divide between what’s considered for men and what’s considered for women, breaking that down involves having men do girly things and having women do boyly things.
I think that accusation has a lot to do with both misunderstanding what feminism is (due to the stereotypes invented by the media) as well as fear at having notions of gender challenged.
When people scream “Women have become whores because of feminism!” and “Men have been dumbed down in our feminized society!” and “Feminism wants a gender war and seeks to turn women into men!” I doubt it is because of reason.
I came across an MRA making videos on Youtube who was arguing that feminism was to blame for the rise and popularity of pornography.
Wut.
But I thought feminists were trying to take away all our pr0n!!!!
“I came across an MRA making videos on Youtube who was arguing that feminism was to blame for the rise and popularity of pornography.”
Did he offer some sort of theory to explain why he thinks this? If so I bet it would be hilarious to read.
@BoggidWurms,
none of my bizness, but are you male or female? If you’re a lady, I really feel bad that you think being womanly sux.
@Quackers- If you take “womanly” to mean “femme,” (which is not even close to being the only way to be an awesome lady, just the closest to the stereotype), it can be a deeply satisfying way to present, as well as subversive in certain contexts. For example, fat femmes or femmes of color can use their gender presentation to fight against stereotypes of them as sexless or inherently ugly. And, as a fat femme, I know I look DAMN good in a dress and heels.
@Cassandra:
It’s been a few months since I saw it, so I’ve completely forget what his “argument” was. I’ll try to remember though.
Strangely, I totally agree with Lauralot.
@B- I disagree with the assumption being made here. Really, what does our society value in traditional femininity? Well, I think reasonable people can quibble over details, but most of us could agree with, oh, say passivity, docility, gentleness. None of those traits are inherently bad; the problem is, our society forces this idealization upon those who might not be so keen, and shames them, erases them, if they reject it.
In other words, it’s not that the feminine ideal is bad… it’s the fact that society pushes this very narrow definition to the exclusion of all else. And there really is so much more.
But on the other hand, women who ARE traditionally feminine are just as worthy of respect as anyone else, and thus your appropriation of them as an insult is, well, not cool.
forgotten*
Me fail English? That’s unpossible.
I don’t understand how women can feel bad about themselves because they don’t adhere to idealized standards. I am 5’10” tall, will never “pass”, but still love who I am.
@Mags
I am am male. I am disgusted with our culture’s ideals of both what a “man” and what a “woman” is. Both are extremely superficial and look as if they come from Hollywood, soap opera, or Cosmopolitan. Revolting. I’m not surprised those type of mediums communicate the most obvious gender stereotypes.
Furthermore, I am displeased with the whole black-and-white paradigm of gender, this idea of two strictly delineated sexes that are absurdly “complete opposites yet also meant for each other”. There is practically no room in between.
So much that when a transsexual like ZinniaJones speaks on YouTube there are people who say pretty ignorant things like “Are you a man or are you a woman? Choose!” or “Kill it with fire!” or “WHAT ARE YOU!?!?”
As far as “womanly ” is concerned, I have a very negative opinion of mainstream society’s idea of “womanly”, and I wouldn’t be surprised of many men and many women did as well. But as Lauralot said, it’s pretty subjective. I want to know what Mags’s and Lauralot’s idea of “womanly” is, and furthermore how “womanly” by any definition can be a good thing.
If a woman wants to say that she enjoys being a woman, I feel like we as men have no right to tell her otherwise.
@AVT- rock the eff on
@mags- You are super freaking lucky to feel good about yourself and your body image. I am happy for you! However, most women that I know, regardless of how conventionally attractive they are, have something that they absolutely DESPISE about their appearance. I think it’s part of our culture to make people feel just shitty about themselves in order to convince them to buy lots of shit they don’t need to feel better. For men, it’s done by undermining their masculinity and sense of worth as a “success object.” For women, it’s done primarily by undermining their confidence in their looks. It’s awful awful awful.
@B- I think you may be confusing traditional femininity- or as you put it, “society’s idea of ‘womanly'”- with the beauty standard (which is indeed toxic, IMO).
I think these are distinct, though obviously they overlap a bit.
Having someone who identifies as male saying that he can’t see anything positive about being “womanly” (whatever we’re assuming that to mean) really doesn’t sit well with me.
Yes, society dumps a lot of negative shit on women. No, this does not mean that being “womanly” or “feminine” or whatever is inherently negative. I’m short, and that causes me occasional inconvenience. That doesn’t mean that it’s bad to be short, it means that American society is built with people who are taller than me in mind. Put me in Asia and suddenly my height causes me no inconvenience at all, because things are designed for people who are more my size. It’s the same thing with “womanly” – the issue isn’t the trait itself, it’s the societal structure.
Also to me “womanly” as a concept has nothing to do with meeting the beauty standard. Women who are pregnant, or carting around small babies? Fairly unlikely to meet the beauty standard at that moment in time, and I doubt anyone would call them un-womanly.
Boggi- I think it’s important to note that gender presentation does (or so I believe) have a certain degree of innateness to it. I am naturally (as in my parents described these traits in me from the time I was a baby) sensitive, a people pleaser, and interested in wearing dresses, all of which are coded feminine traits. Certainly as I have gotten older, my gender presentation has become more fluid to the situation, and I have other traits, such as intelligence, stubbornness, an adventuresome spirit, and geekery that are often coded more masculine. But my default state is pretty damn girly. There’s nothing WRONG with that. It’s how I am most comfortable. And part of the coming gender revolution is recognizing that all ways of presenting are valid and awesome and worthy of respect.
“Womanly” = being like a woman. …So you have about 3.5 billion examples to choose from. Go nuts. :p
I was never an MRA, but this blog and the commentariat here have helped me say that a few times.
I’m not a woman, but I do love being femme.
It sits double not-well with me because it’s not a comment in isolation; it’s following on from him justifying calling MRAs “bitches” because he thinks they act like stereotypical women.
Today, being “womanly” included eating chocolate, googling how fast someone dies of starvation, tutoring math, and discussing (at some length) a giant poop.
There my friend is how corporations make money off of you. And they keep shifting the shit over and over again so you will keep buying and never be satisfied.
Well, if one is defining woman as a social construct, then being womanly is that which people who define themselves as women do. We all know that there are characteristics that women associate with women. To what extent these are affectations to everybody is up for debate. But, I present the way I choose…which so happens to be more rather convensional, as I’ve written:
“…For some reason, women and gay men really like my look. I think it is the dramatic, retro sexuality that educated women now think inappropriately deferential to the patriarchy. I have been accused by other trans people of being a sexist because of my interpretation of femininity. Maybe women like that I emphasize the curvature of my form, which harks back to an earlier perception of the feminine — out of style today — built on a 5’10” frame made taller with heels…”
Today being womanly means sitting around in my comfy old wrecked jeans and a sweater, taking lots of really disgusting flu medication, and trying not to hack up a lung.
Hmm, unless they occasionally lick their groins, go into heat and/or hump male dogs then I’m not seeing it. (But maybe they do…)
Ooh I like this meme!
Today, being womanly meant going to work, wearing some motherfucking slacks, working on a presentation I’m giving tomorrow, and eating a catfish po’ boy with french fries.
Seconding Crumbelieveable & Cassandra. It’s not your place as a man to decide the worth of being “womanly”.
I don’t think that “manly” and “womanly” are universals, but rather are what a culture expects of those who ID as man and woman. Some aspects of male and female gender presentation DO seem to be pretty universal. With men, for example, there’s physical aggression, bonding over sports (whatever the sport of the culture may be), an aversion to exchanging physical affection (like a hug) with strange men to name a few. I don’t have a problem with having these ideals as long as people don’t try to apply them as universals, and as long as these ideals are conceived by the people to whom it will apply i.e. (as far as the binary goes) men have no business deciding what’s womanly, and women have no business deciding what’s manly. I don’t know enough to make definitive statements about non-binary people, but I would think that the same rule would apply i.e. it is up to a group to decide what their ideal presentation is
Hey Manboobzers, thanks to you all I was able to tell my friend not to refer to a transman he knows as “a shim”. I wouldn’t have had the words to do that before reading this site. :)
That might just be universal universal. Does anyone like that? :p
I identify as a manly woman so I’m not quite sure if I get to play the “womanly” game. But today I was manly-woman-y by:
-Writing a sociology essay
-Talking to a bunch of my dude friends
-Getting really angry that anatomy lab was canceled after I’d gotten up with only three hours of sleep to attend
-Napping extensively (and somewhat resentfully)
-Eating tofu
-Wearing a sweater and jeans
-Fixing a ripped backpack.
I’m not even sure which of these are stereotypes. “Oh, you know women, always napping resentfully.”
I’m not even sure which of these are stereotypes. “Oh, you know women, always napping resentfully.”
It probably counts if you’re doing it to deny a man sex. :D
“napping resentfully” sounds like something a cat would do :)
I have metaphysical and mystical notions of “masculine” and “feminine” that are different from common notions in our society.
I’m a little afraid to ask, but I will anyway.
@Bagelsan
It’s been my experience that, regardless of culture, women are generally more comfortable with physical affection. Even in more conservative cultures (like South Asian cultures) women are more likely to hug people, or use reassuring touches, than men. I think it’s a result of being socialised to be nurturing, but that’s just my uneducated guess.
@Holly
My mum is also a resentful napper, so y’all may be starting a stereotype together :P
I guess that’s another way in which I as an evil feminist destroy men then – I actively seek out men who’re physically demonstrative and affectionate, and pretty much won’t have sex with men who aren’t.
@Bagelsan
I just realised that I said strange men, when I meant strangers
CassandraSays – There’s a category of men you won’t have sex with??!?!
That right there is destroying men.
@Cassandra
I’m not sure if you mean in general, or with loved ones. i think men and women are much more similar when it comes to physical affection with loved ones, I’m talking more about outside of that inner circle. It’s because of that similarity that I think it’s a matter of socialisation over biology.
I know! It’s so evil of women, having preferences. That should probably be included in some sort of MRA manifesto – “women are strictly forbidden to refuse to have sex with men simply because they don’t find them appealing, because what if he’s a really Nice Guy?”.
It’s true!!! This is why I die a thousand deaths every day!
@ Shadow
I mean that I actively seek out men who’re very huggy in general. Obviously everyone is more huggy with people in their inner circle than with strangers, but the men I tend to go for are the ones who’d be described as unusually huggy or touchy-feely by anyone who knew them.
@Cassandra
Lol, fair enough. It’s funny because I find that kind of openness very endearing in people, right up until they turn it on me.
Whereas I’m super huggy so if I attempted to date someone who wasn’t it wouldn’t end well. I’d annoy them by wanting hugs more than they were comfortable with, and they’d annoy me by not being as affectionate as I’d want. It’s a recipe for an unhappy relationship.
Also, again – flu medication, I’m on lots of it, so apologies if I’m not making much sense this evening.
I love being a woman. As far as I’m concerned, that’s what “womanly” is, so I guess I love being womanly.
I also happen to be a very femme woman, because that’s who I am, and I love that too. There’s a lot of bullshit that surrounds that. The idea that how I dress/act/speak is how women are supposed to dress/act/speak, and that other women who dress/act/speak in a different way are somehow doing it wrong. The idea that, because of the way I dress/act/speak, I can’t be as capable or as smart or as serious as someone else. But the bullshit is what society has arbitrarily thrown onto the concept of femme women and women in general. It doesn’t tell me or anyone else how valuable we are, and fuck anyone who thinks it does.
Me too. :)
Today, being womanly meant lying around in flannel pajamas with a mustard stain on them, proofreading some files, doing my physical therapy, making pasta, and playing far too much Skyrim.
Based on today’s experience, being womanly means drinking lots of herbal tea, whereas normally it means drinking lots of green tea. Now I’m confused. How is a woman supposed to know if she’s womanly in an OK way or in a bad, use it to criticise MRAs way?
(Apparently cold meds make me extra snarky)
my womanly day has consisted of taking my kids to child care, and then being at work, trying to support 4 different people to resolve their housing and financial worries. i have drunk 2 cups of tea and had a very indifferent lunch sitting on the back verandah at work.
i am now staring, in a womanly fashion, at the river i can see from my work window, waiting to go home in 10minutes, via collecting the kids.
I then plan to organise dinners, lunch boxes, baths, bedtime stories and goodnight kisses. i will then sit my womanly ass down on my sofa and drink hot chocolate (trying to be good during the week, no wine) and watch My Kitchen Rules.
In my manly wisdom, I would like to inform you that y’all are doing the hivemind wrong.
Women! *shakes his manly head*
This is crazy. My manly day was not all that different from womanly days described here. WHAT IS GOING ON?!?
Most people who ID as transsexual are binary IDed, so discussing them as “in between” is misgendering. A binary IDed transsexual man, for example, is not “in between” man and woman any more than a cis man is, he’s on the man IDed end. I also think conceiving of non-binary IDs as “in between” is very limiting and still naturalizes the binary system.
On the issue of “womanly”, I think it’s a vague term. Insofar as it’s just defined as a woman being herself, then it’s fine (insofar as the acts would also be fine if viewed as nongendered), but the term can also refer to social expectations and social roles. And the latter opens a whole can of worms around forcible gender norms.
“I also think conceiving of non-binary IDs as “in between” is very limiting and still naturalizes the binary system.”
That should be “all non-binary IDs” some non-binary IDs are defined that way, and it’s fine for them, but it’s limiting and erasing to assume that’s what non-binary means in general.
There’s some value in having a term for “acting in accordance with social norms for women,” so you can say, for instance, “Anyone should be able to AIAWSNFW if he or she wants to,” or “Women should have other options beyond AIAWSNFW.” But “womanly” is probably not the best choice.
Men’s reaction against feminism is growing rapidly. It must be happened as it is. Feminist cannot change the nature.
I can’t stop laughing
It must be happened as it is, you guys. Words of wisdom.