The Southern Poverty Law Center takes on the violent misogyny so pervasive in the Men’s Rights Movement
[TW for the comments to this post; discussions of rape and abuse.]
The Southern Poverty Law Center, an organization devoted to tracking and exposing hate groups, has just published a detailed report on the misogyny and violent rhetoric so pervasive in the Men’s Rights Movement — as well as the actual violence inspired by this sort of hatred of women. It’s a piece you all should read, even though few of the details will be new to long-time readers of this blog.
Arthur Goldwag, an expert on conspiracy-mongers and the far right, argues (I think correctly) that the Men’s Rights movement is largely a backlash against the many successes of feminism over the last several decades:
It’s not much of a surprise that significant numbers of men in Western societies feel threatened by dramatic changes in their roles and that of the family in recent decades. Similar backlashes, after all, came in response to the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, and other major societal revolutions. What is something of a shock is the verbal and physical violence of that reaction.
[Thomas] Ball’s suicide brought attention to an underworld of misogynists, woman-haters whose fury goes well beyond criticism of the family court system, domestic violence laws, and false rape accusations.
The Men’s Rights Movement, as it exists today, is not a civil rights movement; it is a regressive, hateful reaction against a civil rights movement — that is, feminism.
Those who truly care about the rights of men, and who are not motivated by a hatred of women or feminism, need to repudiate the hate and the violent rhetoric of the Men’s Rights Movement as it exists today. Only then can there be a Men’s Rights Movement worthy of the name.
EDITED TO ADD: The SPLC has also put up a guide to some of the more hateful sites in the manosphere. Longtime readers will be familiar with most of them.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN: And a piece debunking some Men’s Rights Myths.
EDITED TO ADD AGAIN, AGAIN: The discussion of the SPLC report on the Men’s Rights Subreddit is surprisingly reasonable, so far. (I mean, compared to what I expected. Meanwhile, over in this thread, the Men’s Rightsers are behaving as they usually do.)
Posted on March 8, 2012, in actual activism, anti-MRA information, antifeminism, MGTOW, misogyny, MRA, terrorism, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 760 Comments.
I know we have at least one lawyer among the regulars. At what point do vague online threats cross the line into something that’s legally actionable?
There’s no magic line for when you’re allowed to call the FBI or other law-enforcement agencies to report that somebody is making actual threats or posting a person’s address and phone number along with suggestions that they ought to be killed, raped, or similar.
If by “legally actionable” you mean, criminal charges? Generally when there is a credible threat. Posting personal information may well fall into that category. If you mean, a civil lawsuit, well, suggesting that a person is sexually immoral is classic defamation. (Which is, I believe, why Limbaugh gave a fauxpology. Calling someone a prostitute when she isn’t? Write the check, fuckstain.)
All the SPLC did was validate that women’s organizations recognize the power of the dark side…uh, I mean the men’s rights movement. Try to ignore, as David feigns to do, the MRM, but it’s growing. I think, by the wording of the articles, that this announcement came out as a result of the debates by MRA about Obama’s healthcare legislation (with its gendered components) and the VAWA, which MRA’s have been rightfully critical of.
After all, are not affirmative action and VAWA unconstitutional, state-sponsored sexism directed against men?
No. That was easy.
As to the rest of that farrago of lies… the SPLC quoted (and debunked) the various justifications the MRM sites it listed use to rationalise the hate they have for women.
The best disinfectant is sunshine.
Dave doesn’t ignore the Manosphere. You, in fact, try to mock him for not ignoring it.
What Dave does; the reason the Manosphere has such a hate on for him, in particular, is laugh at them.
That’s what pisses them off. If he took them seriously, treated them as legitimate activists (which I notice the SPLC didn’t, quite), they’d be a lot happier, because it would lend them a credibility they lack, and lift them from a circle-jerk to a movement.
PUAs on XKCD. Perfect!
http://xkcd.com/1027/
Mags, I couldn’t help noticing you’re going out of your way to find out who wrote the SPLC article.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/qnxyb/til_southern_poverty_law_center_thinks/c3z4zif
Trying to get some brownie points with Elam by doxxing someone free of charge? Why not hold out for the 1000bux he’ll inevitably offer for the e-lynching of another “bigot?”
And you wanted to donate to Manboobz anonymously. Coward.
AVfM has now responded: http://www.avoiceformen.com/a-voice-for-men/an-open-letter-to-richard-cohen-of-the-splc/
Typically florid quotes:
and
That last, directed to the SPLC, is almost delicious.
Helpfully available as a .pdf download. Thanks, Paul E.!
@Xardox,
tonight, I am going to refrain from the pissing contests that I get sucked into here at MBz. I always start out nicely, and get attacked by people like you. So, hence, and therfore, I won’t comment. I will say, that the person that wrote it should take responsibility for their article if they are going to slander everybody on /r/mensrights.
Cordially,
Magz
Also, check out the reply from AgentMRAOrangeMRMBBQ — possible Elam sockpuppet, who released dox* on radical messageboard feminists he deemed a threat to public safety.
* I forget, did he go through with releasing actual identifying information? I wouldn’t be surprised if he didn’t, because he’s a coward as well.
@Ma99ie
Er, have you read and understood the purpose of this blog?
How is it necessary to doxx the dude who wrote the SPLC article? He’s a published author, and his name is right at the top.
Why don’t you want to accept responsibility for all your “FURST!!” posts? Cya later Mags, good luck getting another person harassed by a bunch of maniacs.
No….there is the one that mentions /r/mensrights that has no author. There are three articles in the issue. Two have authors.
Good night sweet Xardoz. Parting is such sweet sorrow. Until we meet again. hugs and kisses.
Mags, the author’s name is on the article; I would imagine he wrote the sidebar as well. That’s generally how it works. The two people who wrote the MRA myths piece are also identified.
Hint: If at the top of the page just before an article starts, you see the word “by,” generally what follows that is the name of the author.
Hope that helps!
Bylines – how do they work?
And Fidelbogen’s comment on AVfM post is good too:
David, it’s not that I don’t believe you, but can you tell me on this -> http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/spring/misogyny-the-sites page where the author is. Maybe I’m just missing it.
Particularly for a movement composed almost entirely of trolls :p
David, as I always say, it’s aways a good idea not to start out the conversation with veiled condescension.
So, hence, and therfore, I won’t comment.
Good night sweet Xardoz. Parting is such sweet sorrow. Until we meet again. hugs and kisses.
Sticking the flounce, are we?
I’ve never even heard of fidelbogen. Did SPLC get that one wrong? He clearly can’t think straight, tno. Why would a site exposing a hate group like the KKK be wrong? That’s not a double standard if SPLC doesn’t care about anti-KKK sites.
Also if he has so much evidence that feminism is a hate group like the KKK, why doesn’t he hand over that evidence to the Southern Poverty Law Center for review instead of skwaking about being listed? It’s clear that he does not believe his own crap.
OH and fidelbogen… try googling Lepine and Elam. Wait, I did it for you.
http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/descent-into-madness-and-marc-lepine/
Having said all that, I wonder why SPLC included this gentleman here? I believe that their paragraphs describing sites should have at least one example of why they were chosen.
I consider feminism to be on a par with the KKK or any similarly odious thing.
You wanna talk about “…in need of justification.”?
I am indeed. As the other attorney on this board, don’t underestimate the power of the dark side.
I posted a link, is that why my comment was held up? It was to an article on Lepine by Elam showing that there is a link, against what Fidel was claiming.
Ok magdelyn, we know you hate women, especially feminists and everyone else. You have proven it beyond a shadow of a doubt. Hopefully the MRAs that you come closest to liking will now like you back.
Or maybe not, because those guys do not seem to like anyone.
Gad, they’re so melodramatic! Almost like “feminists” with the vapors!
Here’s Fidelbogen again:
He is totally serious.
I am beginning to see what inspired David’s mockery, which I enjoy so much.
(Insomnia again. Sucks.)
They’re trying to use Dred Scott to attack the SPLC? These people have no sense of irony.
Well, Bostonian, I understand that you are not my biggest fan in the world. But, as I’ve said, today, I am being all sunshine and lollipops. The last few times I’ve been on here, the conversation devolves into a clash of snark.
There is so much fail to this flounce.
Seriously, you come here to be snarky and hate everyone. We get the point. I do hope whoever you really want to be impressed is impressed.
I just hope it is not someone like NWO that you want to be your partner, because he would probably hurt anyone he came in close contact with.
@boomboom
Was this the link? http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/feminist-governance-feminism/descent-into-madness-and-marc-lepine/
It’s women’s own fault when men kill them?
This is a serious question Bostonian, who do you think I’m trying to impress, and to what reason? I’ve heard that line of argument before, that “Just because you’re the only girl on the team doesn’t mean they repect you.” My gender persentation is more complicated than that, and my opinions are not the result of my trying to sleep with the football team….well, maybe they are.
This is a serious question Bostonian, who do you think I’m trying to impress, and to what reason?
If you don’t know, why do you expect us to know? But you’ll never impress us (because you’re clueless and irritating) and you’ll never impress the MRAs (because you’re female); these are both facts.
Actually I’d be interested to hear how you came to believe in the MRA movement, Mags. If you’ve ever explained what happened to convince you that they’re right, I missed it. Most MRAs seem to have some sort of personal story behind their support of the whole idea, so I’d be curious to hear what yours is.
Yes, cloud that was a link and the article is by johntheother, a vlogger on you tube and contributor to AVFM whose fave game is to fear monger and use threat as an argument, “if you wimmenz continue, this is the inevitable outcome” … it’s constant.
Well, I don’t have a good answer. I can tell you what I’ve written before, but it is a imperfect sense of the feelings I have:
“…I like men. No, let me take that back. I love men. I like being with them. I like the way they smell. I like that they are direct; they are honest; they are brave and self-sacrificing. I like that men attempt the impossible, and that even in failure, they are glorious. I like men because they rescue people from burning buildings. I like men for their bravado and expressions of risk – sometimes with devastating results. At least they try. Even in defeat, I am inspired by the attempt. I am horrified that there has been a decades old movement to denigrate, dismiss, slander, abuse, castigate, accuse, and destroy manhood…”
I have found, all my life, that when you get close to a man, he is so simple – honest. It’s just the way I feel.
Huh. That sounds like you’re in love with the idea of men, rather than having much to do with individual, specific men, since some men are all of the things you describe, and others really are quite the opposite, and most are somewhere in between. It almost sounds like a straight female version of what PUAs describe as pedestalizing women.
@mags
Sure you like men (so do I) but that does not explain how you got into the men’s right movement. I did not get into feminism just because I like women.
that’s quite the little fanfic you have there
@mag your post has nothing to do with feminism, and feminism does not do what you claim it does. Evidence? There is evidence of a decline in “bravado”? Sure.
Plus yeah Cassandra has a point you seem to be idealizing men in general rather than apreciating men as individuals. Especially considering not all men are like that (you seem to be describing men in a stereotypical “manly” fashion while most men don’t really fall into all of that).
That’s pretty much it, guys. Sorry, if you were hoping that I am a rapist, woman beater who got forced by family court to pay child support for another man’s baby or something. I don’t live in my mother’s basement, I have a son, I am a professional…I just got asked to be an adjunct prof at a local university. My family income is in the top 10% … I live in San Francisco, I’ve lived in New York….I don’t play video games….I don’t know what you want from me. And if you think I am a fake person, like I’ve always said, I’d be happy to meet you somewhere in San Francisco. It’s hard to intimidate me, and almost impossible to embarrase me. What else???? I see a psychiatrist — I went to berkeley…I was enlisted in the marine corps…i am actually a profoundly nice person when you meet me. I went to burning man last year…someone offered me a ticket to go this year…i own a vw bus and a tear drop trailer. i use public transportation and ride my bikes – one at a time – all the time. I can do track stands on my fixed gear bike, without hold the handlebars. I grew in in So.Cal., I surf…all my life…I use a 6’7″ short board thruster….hmmm…i idealize my youth..i had a good time. i was molested as a kid. I’ve been sexually assaulted, but that was my own fault. i’ve never hit anyone, been arrested, and never tried any drugs except MJ in the nineth grade….i would like to try ectacy though….that’s about it.
I do find it funny that a self described mra strictly catagorizes men in such a sterotypical way (especially when many mras complain about this). Not all men are brave, save people, are honest/direct, or are risk takers. (Of course you imply women can’t be any of those)
That’s right Mags. All men are perfect. And women are worthless right? They aren’t capable of any of those things you listed. The MRM reminds us of this all the time. They are no better than radical feminists that pretended that women were perfect and could do no wrong. When you say shit like that it is called generalizing. It might even make the group you are worshiping feel good for a bit, but it isn’t true. Its the same when those ConciousMen guys wrote all women as perfect and goddesses…it’s just not the truth.
All the feminist movement did was demand the same rights and opportunities that men automatically were given. If women were assumed to be capable and were given those same rights and opportunities, there would not have been a need for feminism. They also identified issues that women face specifically like pregnancy and changed laws to enable women to not be slaves to their biology. Yes their were radicals. Yes they went to far and ruined a lot of the movement in my opinion. But you fail to realize they are largely dismissed by 3rd wave feminists who also have men in their lives they love and appreciate. Its sad that you can’t recognize this.
eh people aren’t interested in your life story, they just want to know how you got into the mra movement. I could talk about how I got into the feminist movement mags so I dunno what is so hard to understand.
tell me how u got into the feminist movement then.
not until you tell me how you got into the mra movement ;P
* is ignoring obvious trolling XD
I notice that Magdelyn has made this implicit claim that feminists don’t like men.
Quakers, I would label myself a feminist if I actually thought that it was not gynocentric. That is to say, that I feel that feminists fight for women no matter what the equities. I feel like guys are vilified in this society and I think third wave feminism does the villification. I believe that advocacy research is rampant in feminist scholarship. If you take a look at marcotte, valenti or any of todays famous feminists, they are pretty much aweful people – at least in their advocacy. I have lived much of my life as a guy…that’s what I believe. I look at someone like hugo schwyzer and want to vomit. it’s the way i feel.
Also Mags I think you fail to also realize when you idealize a gender like that it can also inadvertently harm people of that gender AND people of other genders. Painting men as brave and self-sacrificing…that is a lot of pressure to put on men and I bet your buddy Elam would tear you a new one for expecting men to fight and sacrifice themselves for you or some shit. This idea of masculinity also harms individual men by making them think they must be brave regardless of consequences. Enroll in the military! you want to be a brave man right?
In the same way a woman can look at the idealized female role of purity, nurturing, youthfulness and drop dead gorgeousness and feel like shit for not fulfilling it.
@Cassandra:
It reminds me of when some men will say something sexist, and then when called on it protest “What? But I love women!” by which they mean, “What? But I love attractive thin feminine white women between the ages of 18-25!” showing that they don’t think any other kind of women properly counts.
There are many men I love, but I love them for who they are as individuals. The same is true of the many women I love. I care about people in the abstract, but I wouldn’t say I “love” a group of complete strangers based on the traits I’m assuming they all hold. Knowing who a person actually is, and loving the things that make them who they are, is what love is to me.
Is Mags here or not? She’s like Shrodinger’s MRA.
Not only are you pedestalizing men, you’ve decided to side with men who proudly display the worst traits of masculinity — sadists who want to “fuck their shit up.” Selfish philanderers of children they deem unworthy of support. They openly mock “White Knights,” but what does that make them? Even if “white knights” are naive chauvinist chivalrists, they at least have some bearing on morality.
If you want to worship and support men, you’ve picked the wrong guys to hang out with. You should have taken up hunting, or some other macho but not-ridiculous hobby.
I definitely know how I became a feminist. It wasn’t one specific event, it was lots of them over a long period of time, and I’m not going to tl;dr about it here, but yeah, there’s no mystery to it at all. Wasn’t looking for a life story, Mags, or making any accusations, just curious about how you got involved in the whole thing. From what you wrote I can see that you idealize a specific sort of masculinity, which is fine (people are allowed to like what they like), it’s just that I’m not seeing how you got from a to b. I know other people who idealize masculinity who aren’t MRAs, so it seems like there’s a piece of the picture missing.
It’s OK if you don’t want to share, though (certainly this isn’t a very friendly environment for you). Or if you just don’t know, though that does seem weird to me since I tend to always try to figure out why I feel the things that I feel, believe the things that I believe, etc.
Yes…my picture of men is trying to raise them up fro the child molesting, rapist domestic violence narrative I see so often. If it’s overboard, then i plead guilty. obviously i don’t think all men are great human beings. i am reminded of that every day when i am engage in /r/mensrights. i regularly get downvoted for saying things like, i don’t believe in financial abortions….there are a lot of whackos there. no doubt. paul elam is getting way too radical. i have a verifiable history of arguing that register-her should not be registering people for being bigots, or people who are not public figures – and he has shot me down.
i do give people the benefit of the doubt. even guys.
Question – why are you trying to help Elam? It’s pretty obvious that he’s trying to rile up his followers to the point where they’ll start actually hurting the women he’s registering. Do you honestly think that’s OK?
I can tell everyone how I got into Feminism — MRAs. Before running into them I bought into the lie that “feminism wasn’t needed anymore,” I thought all the misogyny I saw online was just un-PC ironic jokes. When I was linked to MRA sites, I discovered that misogyny isn’t a joke to far too many people.
MRAs create far more feminists than they can silence with threats.
So mags if crimes that women commit are reported on, does that slander all women as crime committers? You just make no sense. It’s either men are saints or sinners? Men are not some floating iceberg monolith that’s going to melt because some men rape and that needs to be handled.
You’re extremely sexist. You’ve also seen plenty of evidence on this site that the MRM does not handle information properly, and you can tell by feminist blogs that nobody is out to get “men” as a monolith. So what’s your excuse? The only time I see prolonged willful obtuse aggression is due to pure hatred. You think you’re invisible? You’re an elephant behind a twig. Ridiculous.
boomboom,
unfortunately i am not in the frame of mind to engage your provocation. i’ll save it for another day.
For me it’s a long story. Part of it was watching my mother give up all her dreams when I was a kid because she was expected to, and every attempt she made to do anything outside of wife/mom being opposed by family. Part of it was definitely moving to Saudi at an impressionable age (kind of hard to buy the idea that feminism is no longer needed if you’re in Saudi). Part of it was the change in the way people treated me as soon as I hit puberty. Moving around a lot as a kid meant that I got to compare and contrast how sexism manifests in different societies, and realize that one way or another it manifests in all of them.
I’ve held some beliefs that you could consider precursors to feminism since I was old enough to start considering how I felt about and interacted with the world. Many of my first steps into a child’s simplistic, sort-of feminism were prompted by seeing how strict gender roles hurt men — my (bio)father and brother, in particular. That’s only one slim piece of the very large pie labeled Viscaria’s Becoming a Feminist, but it’s a foundational one.
@Xardoz
YES! I’m so glad I’m not alone in this. Mind you I identified as feminist before I found out about MRAs/PUAs, but after I saw that there are seriously people that think women shouldn’t vote or work and are genuinely useless unless they are 18 and submissive….yeah, I can see that feminism is still needed. And not just them, its the internet in general. I honestly think I would drop feminism if I was oblivious to the internet, but misogynistic attitudes are everywhere…everyday I’m continuously baffled at the horrible attitudes towards women online. Rape threats, sexist jokes, random misogyny, MRA/PUA sites, etc….I think a major issue feminism has to tackle is with attitudes, not laws (laws for LGBTs still need to be fought for though) Women have it pretty good in the west (minus the attack on reproductive rights in the US) I don’t think women are oppressed, but I do think the attitudes towards women are very negative. And a lot of that stems from these men who believe a good woman is one that keeps her mouth shut and legs closed. Thank you internet, you’ve pretty much kept me clinging to feminism.
@ Viscaria
Yeah, watching my (male) best friend’s parents try to beat the kindness and compassion right out of him as a child definitely played a part for me too.
Well, I’ve never been to Saudi Arabia, and have no doubt that it influences your politics. I once had a T.A in college who started the class by saying, “I was never a feminist until I lived in France.” She told a story about a guy being letcherous to her on a bus and when she took ubridge he teasted her in a fury. I was a white person that grew up who went to a prodominately working class inner-city Latino school. I have a very had time in school, even though I am half Latino, because I am very white I once said to this dude, “you know, I can’t help it but I resent what happened to be by the Latino population in school.” And he said, “You can’t blame that on race. It’s totally an economic situation.” That is what I feel about feminism. they accuse “the patriarchy” and by innuendo all guys of some vague crime against women.
goodnight people
Goodnight Mags.
Anyway I don’t remember when I became interested in feminism. Actually I think it was when someone I knew said something against it and I argued that it was a good thing, then I slowly started learning more about it…
Truthfully I’m not as great a feminist as the rest of you guys, you know much more on the theories than I do. I think women have it pretty good regarding legal equality, it’s mainly misogynistic attitudes that bug me and the issue with rape. Female victims are still being blamed or assumed to lie, male victims are still having a hard time being heard and acknowledged, and I don’t even want to think about what trans folk must go through trying to get justice :(
I think high school is what clinched it for me. The rape jokes on the bus, the slut-shaming everywhere I turned, the endless stupid bullshit macho posturing, none of it made any sense to me.
I still see it, the same pointless, irrational, women-hating, femme-phobic bullshit, all the fucking time. And it hurts everybody, women and men. Women more so, but still.
That is what I feel about feminism. they accuse “the patriarchy” and by innuendo all guys of some vague crime against women.
“The Patriarchy” is not a synonym for “men”, Magdelyn.
Elam’s response to the SPLC is priceless. Just did a post on it, will put it up in the morning.
:( aw man.. I was hoping you’d post that nao david…not in the futrelle, but now.