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Reddit’s Post-Pedogeddon Backlash, Part One: r/beatingwomen weighs in on the pedo ban

While Reddit’s reluctant, long-overdue banning of subreddits devoted to sexualized pictures of children drew applause from many Redditors, there has, of course, been a considerable backlash from pedophiles, ephibophiles, and other assorted apologists. ShitRedditSays has already started covering this, and I’ll be doing some posts of my own.

So far the most appalling thing I’ve run across (thanks to ScrappyB for pointing it out in the comments here) comes from the BeatingWomen subreddit — which is, unfortunately, a real thing. Some people, you see, are suggesting that maybe Reddit shouldn’t be hosting a forum devoted to sharing images and videos of women being brutalized, so that Redditors can cackle over their victimization, make rape jokes, and whatever else they do there.

The idea that r/beatingwomen “might be next “ roused one racist, misogynist jailbait enthusiast to post this little manifesto.

He’s not trolling. If you look at his comment history you’ll see he’s completely sincere. (Actually, don’t look at his comment history. It’s horrifying. I’m not going to link to it.)

In case any one is wondering, r/beatingwomen is the subreddit that r/mensrights mod AnnArchist (a guy, despite the name) posted to on several occasions, because he considers r/beatingwomen-style “humor” to be hilarious.

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Posted on February 13, 2012, in creepy, hypocrisy, men who should not ever be with women ever, misandry, misogyny, MRA, pedophiles oh sorry ephebophiles, racism, rape, rapey, reddit, threats, violence against men/women. Bookmark the permalink. 228 Comments.

  1. All racist jokes make you a racist, all rape jokes mean you secretly want to rape, all terrorist jokes mean to secretly wish to be a terrorist… etc.

    I’ll just trot out my usual point: Is this really the hill you want to die on? Your right to make racist jokes?

    Invariably when i get into arguments with conspiracy nuts one of them will eventually suggest that I am a tool of the Jewish overlords, or some such, and I will make some joke about signing up with the Jew overlords because there are free bagels at the meetings, or something like that.

    Kladle’s Jewish recruiting agency picture is another good example.

    Oh and unless you are a moderator or owner of this blog, kindly shut your cakehole as I was talking to David, not you dickhead.

    And another person fails to make the calculation, “Who do people on this blog like better, kladle or me?”

  2. @Holly Pervocracy

    Yeah but dontcha think misogyny is already so greatly exposed in your everyday life? Do you really need a bloke to tell you how much you are despised and then rule that you only post nice words about it? This post right here. This post is an honest example of how many men actually feel about women. You go google “feminism” and what you will find is very many sites devoted to the purported evils of women and feminism. I think that trying to make misogynists face up to their own words is pointless. They have a vested interest in making women feel like a piece of shit – a second class citizen. Ironically that’s how I feel whenever I come here. Elevating women’s status would plunk some men even lower on the totum pole than they already are. No man is interested in true equality. Think about it. The highest man on the totem pole is never going to be disloged. All those below it are in danger of being pegged down a space when we speak about equality and equal opportunity. And down it goes until the middle class man on the pole is terrified of being downstaged by any woman given opportunity. There we have misogyny.

    Misogynists aren’t interested in serious debate. You need to be, whether or not the discussion involves angry platitudes of pretend violence. Not some bloke reminding you of how despised you actually are.

  3. “Invariably when i get into arguments with conspiracy nuts one of them will eventually suggest that I am a tool of the Jewish overlords, or some such, and I will make some joke about signing up with the Jew overlords because there are free bagels at the meetings, or something like that.”

    This is effectively the toaster joke.

    So, really, as a queer Jew, I should go recruit a straight person to get the toaster and then go and sign up with the Jewish overlords so I can acquire the bagels.

    The only question now is how to get a nice schmear.

  4. Hopefully I’m not getting to this particular discussion too late, but I’d like to say that as an Asian person, I’ve had the experience of having to call someone out on a racist joke that she made about my race, to me. She was shocked. She had thought that we would be able to laugh at the joke together, because it should be obvious to me that she wasn’t a racist and that the joke was meant in a spirit of fun.

    I asked why she thought all that, and she cited examples of two other non-white people we knew who totally made those jokes with her and laughed when she or others made them.

    Neither of those people had a personality where you would think they would take shit from anyone, but I think that they were more invested than I was in the friendships they had within the mostly white group. Another time, a bunch of us were having a meeting to discuss what we should dress as for Folsom Street Fair, and a white girl shouted out, “We should go as Asians!” I glanced at one of the women mentioned above, who is also Asian and had known all those people for quite a while. She had a sort of half-laugh coming out of her mouth. I could see how there was no space for her, if she was offended, to take the issue up with her fifteen white friends who thought it was funny.

    This was all in San Francisco – not where you’d think to find racism until you actually live there.

    Holly Pervocracy made a great list of reasons why a non-white person might choose to make and take jokes about his/her race. But even if the commenter’s friend in question is 100% fine with it, really and truly, I’m also staying out of lurk mode to write this for other people who like to make racist jokes with their friends. You don’t know what’s really going on with them. I think it’s cool for people to just make sure they never tell racist jokes, rather than putting the burden on listeners to speak up if they feel offended. Not telling racist jokes is easier than having to tell all your friends that you don’t want to hear racist jokes, you know?

  5. Sandra, and I’m saying this as mildly as possible, it sounds like this just isn’t a good place for you.

    …Also, the “you’re still being silenced and ordered around and told you don’t understand your own actions, but this time by a WOMAN” brand of feminism pisses me the hell off. You don’t help oppressed people by offering to be their new oppressor.

  6. Yeah but dontcha think misogyny is already so greatly exposed in your everyday life? Do you really need a bloke to tell you how much you are despised

    No I am pretty sure most women don’t need a reminder…thats not the purpose of this blog though….

    No man is interested in true equality.

    okayyyyyyy *back away from radfem*

    Misogynists aren’t interested in serious debate.

    No shit, but it makes people feel better to combat it with debate so why not let them? Thats how they cope with such horrible people existing.

  7. By that logic we can’t trust anyone to want equality. Which leaves us with… thunderdome?

  8. Also, I’m not sure that there is such a thing as being 100% fine with sharing racist jokes with one’s friends. Everything about racism is so complex, in theory and in personal experience, that it might never be possible to get there.

  9. I guess if there were actual Oppression Olympics, and everybody in the whole world competed, we could trust that the official Most Oppressed Person could be fighting for equality. Not that zie would get very far since absolutely everyone else on the planet would be working against zir.

  10. You know I really hate saying this and I rarely do but if you don’t like this site then you should leave. Its not going to change anytime soon and you clearly are just offended a site like this exists. This site maybe not for you but others like it here including me. I feel better seeing people react so negatively to this kind of crap, it restores a bit of my faith in humanity.

    Obviously you don’t feel better to see this kind of thing being smacked down which is fine but you should move on and leave people to cope with it how they want.

  11. Can’t we just get beyond Thunderdome?

    /hasnooriginaljokes

  12. Also, I’m not sure that there is such a thing as being 100% fine with sharing racist jokes with one’s friends. Everything about racism is so complex, in theory and in personal experience, that it might never be possible to get there.

    Anecdotal, but IME this tends to happen in groups where the person making the jokes is in the minority in their group e.g. the one white friend in a group of black friends being given a pass to call them “nigga”, but again this depends entirely on how the person is perceived. I’ve had a couple of friends that I’ve been cool with hearing criminal/terrorist jokes from, but it’s a very select group, and I am only comfortable with them making those jokes about me, not about my people in general.

  13. Sandra:

    Exposing and/or mocking noxious ideas/actions/etc is a fairly well-accepted way to deal with that sort of shit. And it can be effective.

    ShitRedditSays and Something Awful used exposure to get Reddit to shut down its subreddits filled with sexualized and in some cases (apparently) clearly pornographic pictures of preteen girls.

    Progressive groups use exposure to fight hate groups — see the Southern Poverty Law Center and Right Wing WAtch, for example. Back in the 1950s, progressives exposed some of the goofier rituals of the Ku Klux Klan and helped to turn it into a laughingstock in many people’s minds, which made it easier to fight.

    The blog Yo Is That Racist used mockery to challenge racism, whether subtle or overt.

    Feminist blogs use exposure to fight against misogyny — eg, the “Mooreandme” campaign on twitter.

    You know who hates this kind of exposure and/or mockery more than anyone? The assholes being exposed and mocked. If all I — we — are doing here is amplifying the misogynist signal, why does this site make the misogynists we talk about here so very angry?

  14. Can’t we just get beyond Thunderdome?

    NEVERRR!!!

    /was over it until he heard Patrick Warburton going around saying “It’s thunderdome.”

  15. we don’t need another hero!

  16. Well I’m happy to say this. You love the misogyny. You enjoy reading it. Daily by the fucken looks of it. Gripes knows why. You enjoy commenting on the misogyny and will happily read about paedophilia in a fun way, so long as no evilz against the paedophiles who boast about RAPING CHILDREN and BEATING WOMEN is spoken about in a retaliatory manner in your camp. Well done!. What a great bunch of

  17. I guess reading feminist sites also makes you love misogyny since they talk about it all the time and give examples of it.

  18. …. the fuck, Sandra? Have… have you even read this blog?

    “so long as no evilz against the paedophiles who boast about RAPING CHILDREN and BEATING WOMEN is spoken about in a retaliatory manner in your camp.”

    There is no response to this. You are simply wrong. It’s like accusing fire of being too wet.

  19. I guess reading feminist sites also makes you love misogyny since they talk about it all the time and give examples of it.

    Right? I mean it’s not like Feministe (or Pandagon either IIRC) are any more tolerant of violent rhetoric either.

    Also, I love how the comment just cuts off. It’s like WordPress hung up on her for us.

  20. Do you agree or disagree that reading feminist sites makes you misogynist as well?

    The writers talk about it all the time and aren’t inciting violence against the people saying that stuff. They must like misogyny by your logic right?

  21. If all I — we — are doing here is amplifying the misogynist signal, why does this site make the misogynists we talk about here so very angry?

    And why aren’t the comment sections filled with people saying “hey thanks, David, I never thought of it from the ‘women are evil bitches’ angle before!” Instead, there is a commentariat made up mostly of feminists, and almost entirely of people supporting the basic goals of feminism.

    Besides, not everything is about activism. I do think making fun of the Manosphere helps to discredit it, but I don’t know if another way might be faster or better or something. But really, I don’t care; that’s not the only reason I come here. It’s also, you know, fun, and I care about the people here.

  22. Right? I mean it’s not like Feministe (or Pandagon either IIRC) are any more tolerant of violent rhetoric either.

    I know! right?

    Sandra sounds like she is a feminist so I am guessing that she does read feminists sites (how else would she find this place?) that pretty much have similar content of pointing out and combating misogynist things. I think she just is angry because a man is doing it. XD

  23. I think I should say I don’t believe the feminist=manhater crap before anyone assumes anything. Its pretty clear though that Sandra doesn’t like men being involved in feminism because she thinks they can never want true equality from this comment:

    http://manboobz.com/2012/02/13/reddits-post-pedogeddon-backlash-part-one-rbeatingwomen-weighs-in-on-the-pedo-ban/comment-page-3/#comment-124390

    I’m assuming that she also thinks this about david from her comments about him
    “dominating the women here”.

    Also this is not calling what she thinks a great injustice to teh menz because its not. XD

    just thought I’d clear that up

    *moving on*

  24. So Sandra, how do you manage to be a feminist without talking about misogyny? Is it only ok when you threaten to retaliate violence? Or maybe you can only speak of it theorically?

    Let me sum up: we should treat our enemies with violence and all men are the enemy… By that fucked logic, you have the moral right of shooting my little brother, my math teacher, my father, my boyfriend, about half of my friends (uncluding those who belong to oppressed groups, like gays, poc,…)
    Guess what? I disagree. (even though some can be misogynists somtimes)

  25. The people i’ve met in real life who say “I’ll kill that paedophile!” – saying that is all they do, they don’t actually attack the bastard, nor do they offer any other kind of help or support.

  26. Ironically that’s how I feel whenever I come here. Elevating women’s status would plunk some men even lower on the totum pole than they already are. No man is interested in true equality. Think about it.

    Well I’m happy to say this. You love the misogyny. You enjoy reading it. Daily by the fucken looks of it. Gripes knows why. You enjoy commenting on the misogyny and will happily read about paedophilia in a fun way, so long as no evilz against the paedophiles who boast about RAPING CHILDREN and BEATING WOMEN is spoken about in a retaliatory manner in your camp. Well done!. What a great bunch of

    I’m also in for the betting 5 bucks that Sandra is an MRA posing as a feminist to… I dunno, maybe discourage readership to manboobz, make feminists look bad or just troll. O_o

    http://manboobz.com/2012/01/03/manosphere-dudes-lets-set-up-fake-feminist-blogs-to-take-down-feminism/

  27. @ersatzmoons

    Yeah thats what I was thinking. Her comments don’t make much sense the more you think about it. Especially about the not talking about misogyny bit, that struck me as odd for a feminist to say.

    Though its kinda hilarious that mras seem to admit that they are misogynist all the time. So much for an movement about equality.

  28. * a movement supposedly about “equality”

  29. There recently was a post of a young woman saying that her father tried to make her believe MRA-like logic and thanking David because Manboobz helped her understand that being female didn’t mean she was a sub-human. (That’s basically it, I believe)
    How did that happen, Sandra?

  30. FWIW, I think Sandra’s sincere and not an MRA in disguise.

    For one thing, whenever MRAs pretend to be feminists they do it really, really incompetently. Weren’t there some people here who got odd and unconvincing emails allegedly from feminists trying to “warn” them about me?

  31. It’s too depressing to think about paedos and woman-beaters, so here’s a happy thing. the government gave my mate a set-top-box today, so now I can teach him to watch Dr Who :)

  32. Just want to say this as a Black person: If you want to make racist jokes…just don’t. Granted, what David and Holly said makes sense, and there are friends with whom I’m cool with making certain jokes with.

    Here’s the thing, though: They best friends recognize my right to be offended, and I try to do the same. Even if I’m in a safe space, it would be much better not to say some things.

    Also, as a personal note, I don’t like the N-word, even in a joking manner. It’s one of the things I dislike about the TV show, “The Boondocks” (as pointed and funny as it is at times), and even then, there are other problematic elements. I could type out why I don’t using the N-word…but I using a DSi right now, and my hands are cramped.

    Just my 2 cents.

    Oh, and Patrick Bateman is not a role model. I can see simply based on the “business card” sequence I saw on YouTube.

  33. MY GRAMMAR! IT BURNS!

    Man, I can’t wait for when I have a computer of my own. Proofreading on a DSi web browser is like trying to open an Ostrich egg with a cheap ballpoint pen.

  34. Hi Sandra!

    I see you got really mad. I don’t really care if you are mad or not and nobody here really does either, so long as you don’t make threats of violence. Clearly you have not read much around here because many people have gotten very emotional about MRA stuff in the comments section, and they haven’t been censured for it. I spoke for the group and the site because I have been reading and commenting for months here and agree with David about the no violence thing. I wanted to make sure you knew it was seen as unacceptable here. Here are some reasons why I agree about threats of violence:

    1. They can be triggering or upsetting, sometimes even more so than the original material
    2. They frequently turn into “pissing contests” about who is the most upset, or who can come up with the most grotesque fantasy, which derails the thread
    3. David frequently condemns people in the manosphere for threatening violence so it would be hypocritical to allow it here
    4. It’s not always clear when someone is merely upset vs. actually willing to commit violent acts
    5. Members of the manosphere read Manboobz and might use these threats to discredit the site
    6. Violent retaliation or vigilante-ism isn’t acceptable, period, and we ought not encourage the idea that it is by allowing fantasies of such on the site
    7. The idea that violence is acceptable against those who “deserve it” feeds into things like domestic violence, since the perpetrators believe that their victims “deserve” what they have done to them
    8. Violent retributive fantasies make it seem like societal problems like child molestation or domestic violence are simple and easy to understand, and that their solution is equally as simple and easy

    Now you know! I hope you think about that and have a good night.

  35. What Manboobz does is a fucking favor to humanity. It exposes the MRM for the vile, hateful filth that they are. It takes real quotes from their major cesspools of gathering and shows everyone who stumbles upon this site what a misogynistic, backwards excuse for a social justice movement they are. No fabrications, just pure comments and articles straight from the original source and from many different ones too. If if weren’t for Manboobz…well, I probably would never leave my house to be honest.

    Sandra I have often felt extreme anger and disgust at the misogynistic quotes David posts, I know how it feels reading them. But this shit needs to be exposed. These are the attitudes and opinions non-feminists or fence sitters think no longer exists in our egalitarian society. They do. And the people that post it need to be mocked for both their bigotry, hypocrisy and complete lack of logic. Violence solves nothing. And fyi, MRAs are just itching for a self proclaimed feminist to threaten them with violence or allude to it. If that’s you, kindly piss off. We want nothing to do with that shit.

    Also in regards to the racism discussion…this has been asked before but you really do have to wonder why some people insist on clinging to their “right” to make a racist joke or statement. Why is it so important to them to use a racist slur? Will they just explode if they don’t? how come I and many other people I know never felt the burning need to use the n-word? or make an anti-semitic joke? this says a lot more about the person who insists on saying these things than it does the people saying it’s offensive and hurtful.

  36. Btw,

    but dontcha think misogyny is already so greatly exposed in your everyday life?

    No it’s not. Unless you believe that ‘exposed’ and ‘visible’ is the same thing.

  37. Exactly, Quackers (on the racism thing, though also on whatever Sandra is on about). The defenders seem to be conflating being able to say bigoted shit (and not being called out on it) with free speech…which, as has been pointed before, is wrong.

    Analogy time: If I serve a meal, and the person I give it to doesn’t like it, they’re not threatening my right to cook, because I already exercised it…they’re just expressing their right to express their opinion against it, and to refuse to eat it, too.

    Assholes don’t seem to realize that just because they CAN say things, doesn’t mean that they’re entitled to a compliant audience.

  38. RE The discussion about racist jokes…the thing is, why are they necessary? If people want to do that thing where you bond with your friends by teasing/mocking them, there are plenty of ways to do that without invoking racist stereotypes. Try being more creative AND less racist, it’s not that hard!

    Sandra, what is it that you want, exactly? If you want this site to go away, clearly that’s not going to happen. If you want violent comments to be allowed, well, the idea that MRAs think that it’s OK to make threats towards people in response to those people saying/doing things they don’t like is one of the things that we mock here, so it would be pretty ridiculous for us to then go oh but if it’s someone we like making the threats and they’re threatening someone we don’t like then that’s OK.

  39. @red_locker

    Yep it’s the same with those whiners who are always complaining how supposedly PC society is. Truth is, everyone has the freedom to pretty much say anything they want (look at the internet) but if they’re being racist, sexist, homophobic etc, expect to be called an offensive asshole because of it you know? but that’s really what it’s about, they just want everyone to accept their bullshit with a smile. Not gonna happen.

    That’s what I like about this site. No one is trying to censor MRAs, but they are being mocked and regarded with contempt for their misogynistic comments.

  40. Is this really going to be turned into one of their ‘men vs women’ things?! I’m sure the vast majority of men don’t think a reddit for paedophiles to post photos of kids is cool. MRA or not…surely!?

  41. Yeah, I told a friend about the whole multiple pedo threads thing and as anticipated he was just as displeased with the idea as most women are. Is this an extension of the last theory about underage sex workers, where now adult women are supposedly jealous of 8 year olds?

  42. @Joanna –

    Another real live Irish person reporting in (let me know if you require hard copies of my birth certificate, passport, or recent proof of address so that you, Grand High Arbiter of Irishness on the Internet, can verify my claim).

    While social interaction and humour in Ireland does involve a fair amount of affectionate mockery, that doesn’t actually make ‘lol Jews’ jokes okay, nor does it invalidate any of the many, many reasons your friend might not be totes fine with them, despite appearances.

    Have you ever been hanging out with a group of male friends, and had one of them say something stupid and sexist about women? And had the rest of your male friends laugh? And have you ever been kind of annoyed, and mentally rolled your eyes, but sort of laughed along anyway because saying something just isn’t worth the ragging you’d get for being too sensitive/a humourless cow/a hairy feminist/etc. etc.?

    Nobody here is suggesting that your friend is actually weeping and rending his garments inside every time anyone makes a “Jew gold” joke – but he doesn’t need to be for it to still be offensive. And if you can’t see why there’s a difference between members of the majority jokingly insulting each other, and members of the majority jokingly insulting a member of a minority (based on their minority status, even), then… I’m not sure there’s anything for you to learn on blogs like this.

    Finally, two other things you may also want to consider:

    – Ireland as a society is kind of… well, massively racist. The only reason it’s not more prominent is that, as of yet, we still only have a comparatively small non-white population. It just doesn’t crop up as often in the public consciousness. But you may want to take that into account next time you want to use, “Oh, but sure we’re Irish, that’s just the way we do things here!” to defend your right to make ethnic jokes.

    – That Jack Dee video you linked back on page 1? With the pikey joke? Yeah, that actually was pretty damn offensive.

  43. Jill the Spinster

    What Manboobz does is a fucking favor to humanity. It exposes the MRM for the vile, hateful filth that they are. It takes real quotes from their major cesspools of gathering and shows everyone who stumbles upon this site what a misogynistic, backwards excuse for a social justice movement they are

    Quoted for truth.

  44. Everything Kladle said above is super important and especially this:

    7. The idea that violence is acceptable against those who “deserve it” feeds into things like domestic violence, since the perpetrators believe that their victims “deserve” what they have done to them

    Also: when women and survivors of violence have explicitly asked you not to use violent language here, and your response is to tell them that they’re misogyny enablers and they should just shut their cakeholes… this is just another boring ol’ attack on women and survivors of violence. Having our stated wishes ignored and our ways of coping denigrated because someone thinks they know what’s good for us is not an unfamiliar feeling for women and survivors, to put it mildly.

  45. Of course misogyny needs to be exposed. It’s taken for granted that women are inferior to/should be subordinate to men. Don’t you hear people say things like “Of course we needed feminism back in the 50s/30s/suffragette era, but we have equality now!” all the time? And then you have to tell them about the wage gap and domestic violence and attacks on abortion and contraception and rape culture and so on and so on?

    When you try to explain to some well-meaning dude that yeah, a small but significant minority of men think raping women is A-OK and that joke about the frat party he just told is really, really not helping, and he says, “Oh, nobody really thinks that,” it’s good to have a place to point him. With the added bonus of misogynists showing up in the comments to defend themselves, so you can see them in real time.

    Also taunting the MRM is just entertaining.

  46. The problem with the “just a joke” is that it has been used too often to justify or minimize a vile comment. Of course some people, sometimes may be saying offensive things with no intent, but it is a dangerous game.

    This topic is complex, because you have to take into account many factors. As some commenters have said, people within a community can make self-deprecating jokes, or you can mock the prejudice. However, I have seen just too many people hiding their real horrible beliefs behind a joke.

    Every person has different boundaries, and, as soon as a joke or a comment are offensive for a person, this person has the right to call out the joke and get offended. Yes, different people can find different things offensive. Maybe you can meet some people who enjoy exchanging banter and picking on each other, but that does not make it a-ok for everyone. Making offensive jokes is not a right.

  47. Sandra, you’re being an ass.

    The reason that places like this, or Making Light, or The Slacktivist, work as well as they do is that they foster a sense of community. There are social mores, and the group; as a whole, shares, communicates, and enforces them.

    If you don’t like that you are free to leave, but to arrogate to yourself; in the smug and arrogant sort of statement you made to Kladle, that you were allowed to talk and Kladle wasn’t, because; just like you, Kladle isn’t the owner of the blog, would be laughable; if you hadn’t been so rude in your choice of words.

    Everyone here is a moderator. We tell each other (as this entire conversation has become) what we think is polite behavior here. What you just did, isn’t.

    Then again, reading the rest of your comments on this page, I begin to think (against my general inclination) that you aren’t really being honest here, and were trying to pick a fight. I’m not sure why, because what you are saying (that allowing misogynists to dig their own graves so we can fill them in is somehow coddling them) implies a lack of comprehension about how mockery works as to be, again, laughable.

    The level of vitriol the manosphere has for Manboobz is all out of proportion to the number of people who post here, or to the number of people who read it. This, more than angry denunciations (or pointless threats) angers them, makes them lose their shit and say the sorts of thing they try to hide with the otiose blatherings of a Fidelbogen, or the pseudo-intellectual rationalisations of an Elam, or the false analogies to evolution of a Heartiste. It leads them to coming here to justify, and defend, “the real meaning,” of things like, “We need to acquit everyone who is ever charged with rape, and then throw their accusers in prison”.

    Which doesn’t go well for them. You would make ghettos, where they could stew in their own hate, and (with real justification, not the false sense of outrage they have now), complain that feminists won’t listen to them.

  48. Once again, my comment was out of line and in poor taste.

    I apologize to everyone.

  49. Wow, Sandra, way to start. You really should think about shutting thine own cakehole and going elsewhere.

  50. Sandra: Yeah but dontcha think misogyny is already so greatly exposed in your everyday life?

    Not at all. I think the problem is no one laughs at it. No one treats it as something which ought to be laughed at. No one is saying the emperor has no clothes.

    No man is interested in true equality.

    Bullshit. If you really think that why do you come here? Because this place is full of men who are interested in just that. Joint a group of lesbian separatists if that’s what you really think. But don’t assume you have the right to compel others to share your view, much less that you should use your privilege to speak here to tell those who disagree with you that they are hopelessly misguided.

    You certainly shouldn’t choose to be foully rude to someone who is explaining the social customs of the locals. We don’t mind debate. Hell, we probably like it too much, e.g He Whom We Don’t Name, DKM, and NWO, all being treated with a modicum of respect, far outside their actual merits.

    Why? Because, loathsome as their ideas may be, and wretched as the things they think of their fellow men, and vile as what they would be happy to see happen to women, they are human beings and deserving of the respect which comes of that.

    If you can’t do that, you don’t have to come here. If you can, you are more than welcome.

  51. Sorry if I’m repeating what’s been said (on this thread and entire blog ad infinitum) but it never fails to get me how there’s never an MRA outcry when it’s a man accusing all guys of being slobbering violent rapists who can’t control themselves

  52. They don’t care when women do it either, so long as it’s done to victim blame slutty women for their rape.

  53. Minor addendum to previous post: The MRM is very pragmatic about stereotypes that obviously help men. They’ve never complained about, f’rex, men being seen as incapable of housework; they don’t want to do housework. They’ve only ever complained about the negative effects of stereotypes against men, when they do so, not against the actual idea
    (which would mean attacking the ‘positive’ part of it as well). They’ll victim blame slutty women as being responsible for provoking men, but they are *incensed* at the idea of women being afraid of men who might rape them.

    Regarding Sandra’s posts, I’m actually equally perplexed at the idea of removing violent comments while rape apologia stands. That said,

    so long as no evilz against the paedophiles who boast about RAPING CHILDREN and BEATING WOMEN is spoken about in a retaliatory manner in your camp.

    I don’t want violence perpetrated against anyone. I want these assholes out of civilized society, and I want them to never communicate with the rest of us again, but I quite simply don’t want these people killed or injured (I also don’t want the kids they’ve hurt, or who’s hurt they’ve defended as morally correct, hurt either, but it’s rather late for that).

  54. I’m of a mixed mind on violent rhetoric. I am not a completely peaceable person, and understand the urge to violence. I saw the “I’ll give you an alibi” comment as an attempt at very dark humor.

    I’ve (once) crossed Dave’s line on what can be said (I think it was a less overt threat, and a more hostile comment; for all that I put it as a passive hope, not an active desire. I was pretty angry, and the imagery I was tapping into was not pleasant). He has his rules, and that’s fine. It’s his place to set those rules.

    But it’s our place to hang out. One of the rules he sets is that it takes something pretty egregious to get banned. It takes something pretty egregious to get put in the corner on a time out.

    But it’s our place too. As Katz said, we like each other and part of that is because we share a sense of what’s right. It’s what makes this such a hard place for a misogynists to score points, because we take their arguments apart, and we are, sometimes, stupidly stubborn about it. I recall CrackEmcee, and Toysoldier, running in parallel threads, and the people here not quitting.

    It’s hard to wear us down, and there is a vast wealth of talent, skill, experience and some seriously good rhetoric on display here. Woe betide the person (a la Rad) who chooses to come in half baked. Even more pity the soul who has nothing but opinion, and pretends it’s fact; the moreso if they can’t argue.

    “I said so, and you can go look it up”, doesn’t fly here, and that’s better treated (for a while) than links to discredited studies.

    Those, I think, as much as the mockery, are why the MRM, and the PUA’s, (the more “organised” aspects of misogyny) hate us so.

    But they aren’t the real problem. The real problem, the things we talk about as we hoist them on the petards of their words, is the underlying attitudes they are trying to amplify; the ideas they want to return to active memes; that women ought not be allowed to act as if they were fully human, and the equal of men.

    That’s still in the culture, and they do us the favor of showing that feminist arguments about what is going on aren’t (purely) reductio ad absurdem.

  55. I am somewhat curious what Sandra would think of NSWATM.

    Also, Rutee and kladle are sensible and awesome.

  56. As a man, I was surprised to learn in this thread that I’m not interested in equality. It’s just like that time my dad couldn’t believe that I’d gotten way into Jane Austen.

  57. “This post right here. This post is an honest example of how many men actually feel about women.”

    That’s what these guys want you to think. They want to imagine that everyone out there shares their bigotry and delusions.They want to imagine that there are hundreds of millions of men out there just like them who are ready to rise up and commit acts of violence.The reality is that their pathetic revolution will never come because they don’t represent a majority of men at all. Deep down they know this, which is why they label anyone who doesn’t support them a “mangina” or “white knight”.

  58. Crumbelievable is right, and pretending these people aren’t laughable just gives them credence, and make them stronger.

  59. Sandra uses our repeated posts here to assert her claim that we love misogyny…

    Sandra repeatedly posted here and is very likely involved in other feminist websites..

    Feminist websites talk about misogyny…

    Does this mean Sandra is a hypocrite? I’ll let you decide.

    (But the answer’s yes.)

  60. Elevating women’s status would plunk some men even lower on the totum pole than they already are. No man is interested in true equality. Think about it. The highest man on the totem pole is never going to be disloged. All those below it are in danger of being pegged down a space when we speak about equality and equal opportunity. And down it goes until the middle class man on the pole is terrified of being downstaged by any woman given opportunity. There we have misogyny.

    Hey there! Man here, not at all terrified of equality. But I’ll be honest, your rhetoric confuses me. It seems to me that you don’t believe equality is even possible, that you think patriarchal power is unassailable. That no matter how much things change, The Man at the Top will always be The Man at the Top, even when the system that supports him has been dismantled.

    Am I wrong here? ‘Cause if not, that doesn’t really come off as believing in equality. Quite the opposite, actually.

  61. My roommate is sleeping. I think I’m going to go tie him up, wake him up by shining a flashlight in his eyes, and play “I Whip My Hair Back and Forth” at full volume, until he confesses that he’s not interested in equality.

    That can wait until after my cat finishes my breakfast, though. Tomcats gotta learn their place. My pussy is my bitch.

  62. I think I’m going to go tie him up, wake him up by shining a flashlight in his eyes, and play “I Whip My Hair Back and Forth” at full volume, until he confesses that he’s not interested in equality.

    Technically, I think parts of that aren’t mentioned in the Geneva convention. Well done!

  63. But yeah, creepy as the guy in the main post is, I don’t think he speaks for most (or even many) men. It’s like someone describing a particular kink or specific dream or bizarre personal delusion and trying to generalize it to everyone: “Hey guys, is it me or do you all totally want to build a giant penis-shaped tower of Fruit Loops and then dance around it naked every time you see a girl in a short skirt? LOL that is definitely a super common normal fantasy amiright!”

  64. I’m interested in equality, and I’m reading some bell hooks (recently finished “We Real Cool”.

    Wait, I’m a male.

    OH SHIT WHAT DO I DO?!

  65. And Begalsan’s comment makes me want to rewatch The Wicker Man, for some reason (original, not the “HOW DID IT BURN?!” version).

  66. Well yeah, I’ve yet to be convinced that these assholes speak for the majority. However, the everyday, casual misogyny that pervades our culture acts as a tacit endorsement of this kind of extreme, hateful attitude.

    I mean, not many people casually joke about dancing naked around Fruit Loops penis idols without bothering to think the idea through to its logical conclusion. I can’t say the same about rape.

    Which why I think exposing this kind of violent rhetoric to the light of day is important.

  67. I’m a good-looking woman (and modest too!) and I get appreciative, lingering glances all day long. Yet, I’m guessing those guys that bother to fantasize about me would prefer to daydream about me reciprocating their interest, not about throwing me to the ground and forcing their cock in me.

    I mean, my husband is bigger and stronger than me, but he doesn’t generally rely on overpowering me to obtain sex. Rape isn’t a turn-on for him.

  68. Dracula: I demand that you bring us studies on the penis idols! One cannot just assert facts as if it was Truth and expect us to believe him, can he?
    Come on, where are the polls, the evidence of any kind? It a serious blog here, sir.

    Nothing? Hell, I need to do it myself: raise your hand if you’ve ever wanter to build a tower, be it penis-shaped and/or made of fruit loop. (Bagelsan, your participation is mandatory) Rigth. Then raise your hand if you hadn’t before but are now that you heard about it.

  69. Okay, I admit the bit about the idols was pure speculation.

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