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The Case for Chivalry (Note: It’s really, really rapey.)

Chivalry: Good for dudes too.

MRAs, by and large, aren’t big fans of chivalry, and complain bitterly about the terrible injustices forced upon them by this archaic concept, like having to hold doors open for ladies from time to time.

But perhaps they are not considering the many fine benefits of chivalry. In the comments section of Alcuin’s pro-patriarchy blog, our traditionalist friend fschmidt recently set forth the case for chivalry in a way that even the dullest misogynist could appreciate:

In early western culture around the time of the Renaissance, chivalry meant that ladies should be honored and sluts should be raped. This is a totally sound concept and encourages good behavior on the part of women. You cannot expect women to behave if they are not rewarded for good behavior and punished for bad behavior.

Fschmidt’s opinion inspired a lively discussion. Caeser’s Ghost argued that fschmidt had gone a bit too far with the whole rape thing:

Women who dress and behave like whores shouldn’t be raped. They should be prostitutes and treated as such.

Fschmidt replied:

Caesar’s Ghost, I have the greatest respect for prostitutes. Prostitutes provide a valuable service. But sluts provide no value and undermine morality. This is why sluts, identified as provocatively dressed women outside of areas of prostitution, were regularly raped around the time of the Renaissance.

CG argued that prostitutes deserve only the most limited sort of respect:

I respect prostitutes in so far as they fulfill a lowly but necessary function in society. Outside of that function, I have no respect or value for them.

Promiscuous women who are not prostitutes should be treated badly, but I don’t believe that they should be raped. I regard the Renaissance as a great era, but I would have to disagree with their way of handling the problem of sluts.

The mission of Alcuin’s site is, as he states at the top of every page, is to “Promot[e] the Intellectual Renaissance of the Western Tradition.” Apparently you can’t have a real renaissance without sorting out whether or not sexually active women should be raped, or just treated like shit.

For those interested in exploring fschmidt’s opinions further, check out his not-terribly-popular CoAlpha Brotherhood discussion forums. Or this post, in which I examine his CoAlpha brother Drealm’s theory about how women oppress men by dressing like sluts and not covering up their evil sexy hair.

This post merits the famous blinking

tag.

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Posted on February 4, 2012, in antifeminism, chivalry, creepy, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, internal debate, life before feminism, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, MRA, oppressed men, rape, rapey, reactionary bullshit, sluts. Bookmark the permalink. 205 Comments.

  1. @Darksidecat

    Me too! I think recognising the left-right/conservative-progressive axes as somewhat separate is an important part of making talking about politics far less confusing.

    Should be taught in schools, certainly.

  2. I guess I’m a left libertarian progressive. :)

  3. Rutee Katreya, I’m just going to make myself an idiot here, but why do you expect someone to know anything much on the middle ages? I don’t think too many people in North America go farther than castles don’t look the same as Disney draws them, there were swords and horses used and they painted funny designs on their shields. Oh, and all that stuff was in Europe.

  4. Left libertarian? What’s that?

  5. Eh, I’m using the American definition of “leftist”. If you mean actual leftists, the Democratic party doesn’t have any.

  6. I’m using the American definition of “leftist”

    Oh, you mean Canadians. :p

    Cubans count too, I guess.

  7. Addendum – There are a few actual leftists who identify as Democrats, especially in certain parts of the country, but on the whole the Democratic party is solidly centrist. I remain baffled as to why anyone who leans even slightly left, progressive, or socially liberal would have anything positive to say about Ron Paul, though. He’s batshit.

  8. Rutee Katreya, I’m just going to make myself an idiot here, but why do you expect someone to know anything much on the middle ages? I don’t think too many people in North America go farther than castles don’t look the same as Disney draws them, there were swords and horses used and they painted funny designs on their shields. Oh, and all that stuff was in Europe.

    I don’t, that’s why I’m not surprised.

  9. I have plenty of positive things to say about Ron Paul! For one thing, he makes debates entertaining. Take a shot every time Ron Paul blames something on the Federal Reserve that is entirely unrelated to the Fed!

  10. Talking outta turn….that’s misandry.
    Looking out the window…that’s misandry
    Staring at my sandles…. that’s misandry
    Paddling the school canoe, oh you better believe that’s misandry.
    XD

    @Lowquacks

    Zhinxy should be able to help you with that question, hopefully she’ll pop in :)

  11. @Quackers

    I have feeling Zhinxy and I disagree pretty strongly politically in most non-feminist spheres. IIRC though, we both have extensive collections of Dragon magazine and that bond should be enough to patch over that.

  12. @lowquacks

    oh my mistake haha…I just know Zhinxy is the first libertarian I’ve met who also has beliefs that align with some leftist beliefs…aaaaand I think I’ll just stop typing now because I don’t want to accidentally put words into anyone’s mouths XD

  13. @ Ozy

    Your plan is sure to result in many cases of severe alcohol poisoning.

    And yes, that’s misandry.

    (My cat is currently swatting around a toy squirrel. That is also misandry, because she’s a girl cat.)

  14. I’m also surprised to see a panel from Berserk on this blog! It’s a beautifully drawn dark fantasy manga, but like a lot of dark fantasy, it tends to get rather rapey. Like the OP. Most MRA screeds are twisted fantasies, now that I think on it. They can’t wait for society to collapse so they can get away with rapes and all sorts of foul injustices. They should be culled in advance but that’s illegal. We must polish our swords and shields in preparation for the upcoming dark age, fellow White Knights. /s

  15. btw the /s stands for sarcasm, I’m worried my humor crossed the line again. Some crazy-obsessed troll is gonna quote the thing about the culling, isn’t he. “MANBOOBZERS ARE COMING FOR U WITH SWORDS” :(

  16. hmm… I kinda want to clarify now about Ron Paul. When I say he’s the best of a bad situation, the bad situation is the Republican party… When I say I wouldn’t vote for him, I mean it; too many things make him problematic, like his views on abortion tailored to fit the Republican party, and that one video where he denounced evolution.

    I do admire him for being the type of politician I want to see more of (taking a position he believes and rolling with it, not afraid to skirt around nuanced conversation, not drowning everything he says in abstract political jargon), but I can’t agree with his positions.

  17. (My cat is currently swatting around a toy squirrel. That is also misandry, because she’s a girl cat.)

    Not unless the toy squirrel is a boy squirrel. Otherwise, I think it’s just a plain ol’ catfight

  18. There’s something so sad about people who’re anti-lust. I can sort of see it if you think not lusting is a religious obligation (still your problem, though), but when people are all omg something incites lust that’s terrible and there doesn’t seem to be a religious reason I’m just left going, huh? Why is lust bad? Don’t you enjoy looking at sexy people? Weirdo.

    These guys can’t get any. Every time they see a sexy woman, it reminds them that another guy get laid with her.

  19. As a non-American leftist, my opinion on Ron Paul is that he’s less pro-war than the others. But I’d still prefer to be governed by a chimpazee than him.
    His honesty doesn’t change anything for me. I prefer a politician who lie about being a scumbag than one who is comfortable with it.

  20. @no more mister nice guy: I don’t think that’s the only problem; since the anti-lust crowd include married men and even women. Control seems a more likely explaination.

  21. Ron Paul is this generation’s Lyndon LaRouche. He’s basically a personality cult tailor-made to attract people who feel they’re more intelligent than the rest of us cattle without them having to actually *work* at understanding, you know, the *issues*. He’s the perfect candidate for the Gen X South Park, “conservative by default” generation.

    “Conservative by default” is a term I use to describe the cynical belief of many in my generation who hold to the South Park ideology that everybody who is earnest or acknowledges he has an ideology is deluded/a liar/hilariously wrong, therefore feminists and MRAs are the same, racists and anti-racists are the same, etc… leading to the inevitable conclusion that the status quo is, and always will be, the only possible system.

    And yes, I’m aware that I described it as an ideology, even though the SP conservative by default will always claim he is rational, impartial and devoid of ideology.

    Maybe I’m just a Next Level cynic. I think even the cynical refusal to have an ideology is an ideology. ;)

  22. @lowquacks

    The “states rights” angle should mean a fair few states would be better off under him than most Republicans, right?

    “States rights” was originally code for “the federal government can’t tell us we can’t have slaves”. Nowadays it’s code for “the federal government can’t tell us we can’t outlaw abortion”. Pretty sure if the shoe were on the other foot and the people promoting “states rights” had the ability to outlaw abortion on a federal level, the idea of the states actually having the ability to say otherwise would be dropped like a hot potato.

  23. “Why the FUCK do people care about what other people are doing in the boudoir?”

    It’s cos the MRA’s can’t pull sluts. They hate sluts cos they sleep with everyone except them.

  24. [write]Addendum – There are a few actual leftists who identify as Democrats, especially in certain parts of the country, but on the whole the Democratic party is solidly centrist. I remain baffled as to why anyone who leans even slightly left, progressive, or socially liberal would have anything positive to say about Ron Paul, though. He’s batshit.[/write]

    Well, as one of my friends said. Most people on the “left” are really slightly to the write. Most people on the “right” really are…

    P.S. Can someone please tell me how to do quote and italics, bolds, and all that other stuff.

  25. @Joanna,

    That’s true.

    MRA Definition “Slut”= woman who sleeps with everybody

    MRA Definition “Bitch”=woman who sleeps with everybody except the MRA

    @BoggiDWurms,

    Well, the italics can be done with “”, followed by what you want in italics, then finished with a “”. For bolds, it’s the same thing, only with “b” and “/b”.

    Anyway, that’s the basics. Advanced HTML will cost you extra. ;-)

  26. Bleah! That should a bracket sign pointing left, followed by an “i”, then a bracket sign pointing right, then a “/i”.

    As you can see, it takes a lot of practice to get it right. :-)

  27. Pretty sure if the shoe were on the other foot and the people promoting “states rights” had the ability to outlaw abortion on a federal level, the idea of the states actually having the ability to say otherwise would be dropped like a hot potato.

    Yup. Just look at the people who are all “states’ rights! states’ rights!” who want a federal amendment against marriage equality.

  28. I have exceptionally unhairy arms (I am hair-impaired all over, I barely even have pubes) and I totally fuck like a man.

    I’ve tried to grow out my leg hair in order to see if it’d make me look more genderqueer. After months of not shaving, I’ve discovered that I’m apparently only able to grow hair on my lower calf–the hair stops about halfway up my shin.

    Who knew being a hairy-legged feminist was so hard? :(

  29. Yesterday W.F Price wrote a piece on the subject of prostitutes and sluts and it’s a real humdinger

    “Another question I’d like to ask is why is it any better for a woman to give it up for free with multiple different men? Is a slut somehow more honorable than a prostitute? One thing guys ought to ask themselves before committing to a woman is whether they want one who will simply give it up for free to all comers. If that’s the case, a former hooker would make a better bet for a committed partner, because at least she’s used to demanding something before she takes her pants off. Get involved with a slut, and what’s to stop her from giving it away to some random guy at the most convenient opportunity for any reason at all?”

    So there we go. Sluttiness is the same thing as prostiution, I guess.

  30. BlackBloc: Personally, I think cynicism is a very adolescent position. It’s natural enough to be like “hey, wait a minute, lots of stuff in the world sucks!” But the next step shouldn’t be “look at how sucky it all is!”, but “so how can we fix it?”

  31. Okay, I’m a slut, but I don’t sleep with EVERYONE. If I managed to get transported into an alternate universe where all the long-haired geeks were replaced with bros, I’d probably never have casual sex again.

  32. Ozy, I hope you aren’t implying that sluts choose their sexual partners, as though they have, like, desire, and agency. Jeez.

  33. Get involved with a slut, and what’s to stop her from giving it away to some random guy at the most convenient opportunity for any reason at all?

    Wait, you need a reason? I thought wanting to fuck was a reason.

  34. Dang, spelled my name wrong.

  35. Also, the alternate universe where all the long-haired geeks have been replaced by bros is the MOST HORRIFYING DYSTOPIA I HAVE EVER IMAGINED.

  36. Actually, now that I think about it, yes, Price, sluts are EXACTLY like that. Don’t date sluts!

    Also, virgins and inexperienced women are bad in bed, so you shouldn’t date them either!

  37. In fact, Price, you should date NO WOMEN.

    This is also why I’m in support of the Heartiste formerly known as Roissy’s goal to only fuck women who like anal sex and don’t swear.

  38. “Who knew being a hairy-legged feminist was so hard? “

    I look like a faun if I don’t shave. And I’m talking the Greek mythology kind of faun.

  39. @Ozy: There should be a philosoraptor meme on this topic.

    “If virgins are bad in bed and sluts are too easy, who do I sleep with?”

  40. I remain baffled as to why anyone who leans even slightly left, progressive, or socially liberal would have anything positive to say about Ron Paul, though. He’s batshit.

    FTFY.

  41. I will point out that our friends with the, “chivalry” aren’t talking “the middle ages”, but The Renaissance.

    They aren’t right, of course, about that. The “middle ages” saw a lot of, “force = authority”, but even that was constrained. Take liberties one wasn’t actually allowed to and the offended parties could petition the local magnate to intervene. He often did.

    By the renaissance… heh. Good luck with that, ‘rape anyone who isn’t acting the way I think she should”. Force of arms wasn’t limited to just the wealthy anymore, and the right of vendetta wasn’t seen as something limited to the state. A woman who had friends/family could (and would) tell them she’d been violated.

    England, in particular (the country/culture these yahoos look to when they think of, “the glorious past”) wasn’t a place where rape/casual pillage was condoned. The germanic/anglo-saxon ideas of feud (reinforced in the North by the traditions of the Danelaw) that private actions entitled one to private justice, combined with the lack of any central police force until the 19th century meant that one could get away with a lot, if one could get away.

    If the hue and cry was raised, however, the resultant mob would run you down and turn you over to the local justice which could be swift, and a bit myopic (for an example of how this worked practice see the illustrative scene in Oliver Twist, where Bates and the Artful Dodger pick a pocket and Oliver is chased down as the offender).

    So, in renaissance Europe (esp. in England) raping someone was more likely than not going to have her family looking you up, to you put you in the ground. Somehow I don’t think they’d pondered that. They seem to think everyone will decide (a la Meller) that the bitch had it coming to her.

    This, at least historically, has not been the case.

  42. A PSA on html for wordpress.

    To get italics type >i&t;text >/i<

    For bold type >b<text>/b<

    To get blockquotes type >blockquote< text >/blockquote<

    Blockquote seems to have some other rules. The thing I’ve done which seems to work is typing the blockquote, and then putting a line break before the next piece of text.

    Otherwise it will sometimes refuse to accept the close tag.

  43. It’s a common misconception that sluts are less discriminating. A true seducer knows they’re as discriminating as any good girl– more, for a good girl is capable of pretending to be attracted to a mewling betaboy with good credentials and a good job, while a slut is driven only by her tingle. She might let you plunder her treasure an hour after meeting her, but do you think she’d let your average pedestalizing white-knight have anything but sagging balls blue as the language she spews out of her mouth? Of course not.

  44. A corrected PSA on html for wordpress (because I flipped the signs)

    To get italics type <i>text &;lt;/i>

    For bold type <b>text</b>

    To get blockquotes type <blockquote&\gt; text </blockquote>

    Blockquote seems to have some other rules. The thing I’ve done which seems to work is typing the blockquote, and then putting a line break before the next piece of text.

    Otherwise it will sometimes refuse to accept the close tag.

  45. Holy shit, I’m still mostly in lurker mode at the moment for personal reasons, but I instantly recognized the username fschmidt, and for any people here who are not familiar with FSTDT:
    one of his comments was voted the (currently) 3. worst quote in the Top 100 most horrific fundie quotes ever posted on that site.
    See that charming little tidbit for yourself:

    My concern for level of pain of rape would be greater if it weren’t for the fact that most American women deserve to raped because they oppose prostitution as a sexual outlet for men. Since they deserve to raped, I cannot concern myself with the pain rape causes them.

    Or this one, where he speaks against this the terrible fate of honest, tax-paying rapists :

    [After all, there are a lot studies about the rapist striving for the humiliation of the victim and demonstrating his or her power over the victim.]

    This is simply liberal feminist propaganda. Feminist cannot except the truth that rape is quite simply about filling a biological need. Feminists much prefer this myth which is designed to demonize rapists.

    Oh, also: according to him, sluts are actually destroying civilisation! Seriously, he actually literally said that.

    If you want more, click here and enter “fschmidt” in the “Fundie:” box (unfortunately I can’t seem to link to the search results).

    I remember him from the love-shy.com forum days. I think David also made a few posts about them?

    Also, I’m sorry for just barging in with this :x But I remember that he was one of the first MRA-ish guys I met online, so he left quite an impact.
    Nice* to know that he has been sticking to his MO, I guess?

    On a positive note: Yay, Berserk :D

    *and by “nice” I mean, creeps inducing like whoa, He really, REALLY cares about rape.

  46. A further corrected PSA on html for wordpress (because I flipped the signs, and the visual has of html is hard to read)

    To get italics type <i>text &;lt;/i>

    For bold type <b>text</b>

    To get blockquotes type <blockquote> text </blockquote>

    Blockquote seems to have some other rules. The thing I’ve done which seems to work is typing the blockquote, and then putting a line break before the next piece of text.

    Otherwise it will sometimes refuse to accept the close tag.

  47. Son of a bitch. Lets try the italics again

    For Italics type <i>text</i>

    The basic rule is, < “supported tag” > text </”supported tag>.

    Links are a little harder <a href =”URL”>text</a<.

    I hope this one worked.

  48. Fuck…

    Links, again (this is why I don’t code)

    Links are a little harder <a href =”URL”>text</a>.

  49. You can find the html tags supported by WordPress here:

    http://en.support.wordpress.com/code/

    And you can see them in detail here:

    http://www.w3schools.com/tags/default.asp

  50. re the American Political Scene.

    The Republicans scored their biggest victories in the latter ’70s, early ’80s, when they co-opted the editorial desks of news outlets, and managed to convince they they had to be, “more balanced”.

    Significant numbers of studies have shown the populace would actually like a society slightly more left then it is now, but only when you ask them about specific things. If you ask about platforms they will suddenly shift to being (marginally) more supportive of the status quo.

    If you ask them using the rhetoric of, “left/right” they will shift to being slightly right of present. Since the driving forces of the Republican party have always been extremists (from the abolitionist wing of the 1860s to the “remove the shackles from industry types of the ’80s, to the religious/racist types who joined in the ’90s and ’00s) the tendency for the rhetorical language of the Right to keep moving right, while the press is intensifying the message by refusing to call out blatant lies and nonsense has made a significant hurdle to the gov’t actually being in step with what the people truly want.

    And the Right doesn’t care. They use that permanent state of dissatisfaction to keep the sense of resentment and frustration going, because it encourages feeling over reason; which allows them to rant about, “killing babies” and “destroying marriage” and “the turrists who hate our freedoms”, as if those were the cause of the resentment and anger at the dwindling middle class.

    The thing is, the vast middle class Americans take for granted as, “the way the world is” is the result of some massive changes in the 30-60s. Social Security most of all. That meant money which would have been spent on keeping one’s parents alive could go to buying a house, or putting kids through school, or starting a job.

    And the “Free the Markets” side of the Republican party hates that. The religious side wants to establish the New Jerusalem, and the tempting platitudes of, “The Prosperity Bible” make them a lot easier for the people who are in it for the money to co-opt them, because if they don’t get rich, it’s because they don’t deserve it.

    So me, I’m a moderately socialistic sort. I think there should be a good social safety net, medical care for all (because it’s the right thing to do, and because it makes the economy stronger by making it easier for mom-and-pop businesses to start.

    I think that people ought to be able to live their lives as they see fit, so long as they aren’t doing an actual harm to others (and offending my sensibilities isn’t a harm).

    And I resent (no offense intended to zhinxy, or the sincere sorts working to effect changes to the system), that “libertarians” have co-opted that idea as if it were theirs, and limited to those who also think that “Freeing the Agora” (to use some dated jargon) will cure all ills, and is needed to get sane laws on drugs, greater personal liberties and the return of a more limited gov’t.

    /soapbox

  51. HTML: Finally, something I can claim to be better at than Pecunium! Huzzah!

  52. my friend’s dad has a simple formula for rating movies: the accuracy of their depiction of guns. by his standard anaconda is the worst movie ever made because they care around some kind of impossible sawed-off shotgun. the patriot is a close second for suggesting mel gibson could pick off moving targets at a distance with revolutionary war rifles.

    mra debates are like that except the critical question is how well the writer incorporates rape into his argument

  53. @KollegeMesserschmit: The comments on the “destroying civilization” post are hilarious. At least there are normal people in the world lol.

  54. Just to move this into the modern era, Ron Paul was on Piers Morgan talking about abortion and rape. He said that as long as it was “honest rape” he would have the woman go to the emergency room for “a shot of estrogen.” I don’t know what’s scarier: his attitudes about women and abortion, or the fact that an OB-GYN could be so clueless about medicine.

    i havent heard it come up this time around, but back in ’08 he had a line about how he was against ‘health of the mother’ exceptions to anti-abortion laws because in all his years as a doctor he’d never had to perform an abortion to save a woman’s life and therefore didnt believe it was a real thing.

    doctors arent necessarily scientists. learning about science isnt the same thing as learning how to do science but a lot of doctors either dont seem to get that or dont care about the distinction.

  55. @Joanna
    Yeah, it’s one of the sites where you can usually read the comments without bashing your head repeatedly against something hard (though there can be some clueless people every now and then).
    Also, fschmidt tends to show up in the comments :D

  56. Sharculese: I’ve used revolutionary era rifles. One can hit a moving target with them. It’s a lot trickier, but there are lots of accounts of people doing it. The book, “Wellington’s Rifles” has some very good stuff on the use of military (as opposed to private weapons) and people taking shots at game/people at ranges of about 300 yards, with iron sights.

    Taking my being a better shot than most, I’ve managed to hit things about as well with cap and ball pieces as I can with modern arms.

    The trick, of course, is to compute the drop, and factor the wind. Past about 300 meters, it’s dicey as all fuck, esp. with a ball, not a bullet.

    But Diehard 2 lost me in the opening sequence, where they switch from blank to ball by changing mags, having just done a whole lot of firing their MP-5s on full auto.

  57. Well, as one of my friends said. Most people on the “left” are really slightly to the write. Most people on the “right” really are…

    Again, I don’t think this is true. The actual left isn’t right leaning, nor is it moving right. The centrist liberals have moved right, as the center has moved further right, but the actual left has not. If anything, we’ve been solidifying, as a number of far leftist parties report an increase rather than decrease in recruiting and organizing in the past few years.

    The wonderful far leftists I have had the pleasure to associate with have kept me from becoming a total cynic, though I admit I still have days where I am at the “we don’t have to wait for a dystopia, we’re already living in one” mood.

  58. Not to drag the conversation back to Ron Paul, but while he may be a doctor, he is a member of the wingnut version of the AMA, the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. They are anti-abortion, anti-vaccine, anti-universal healthcare, pro-”health freedom”, and generally in favour of any kind of quackery you can name.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Association_of_American_Physicians_and_Surgeons

    I wouldn’t let him come anywhere near me with a speculum.

  59. Kristin, ain’t the (unofficial) motto of the GOP “a government small enough tp fit in a woman’s vagina”? Once again Ron Paul is the one who walks the talk!

    /sarcasm

  60. “IIRC though, we both have extensive collections of Dragon magazine and that bond should be enough to patch over that”

    It is! ALWAYS!

    I’m horribly sick, and I’ve been busy on a project with some other libertariany peeps unearthing stuff about the racist Ron Paul newsletters (which should tell you some things about my opinon on the matter of the Paul business, if far from all of them.)

    But if you like, Some basic what’s a left-libertarian? stuff is here:

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/blog/libertarian-left/

    http://www.gonzotimes.com/2011/01/a-left-libertarian-manifesto/

    And this video is new and there’s cartoons (cartoons!!!)

    http://www.gonzotimes.com/2012/02/what-is-left-libertarianism/

    And the ALL and C4SS are internetty thinky tanky organizy things.

    http://all-left.net/

    http://c4ss.org/

    I consider myself far left, in that I’m anti-statist, anti-privelege, anti-borders, anti-corporate, anti-heiriarchy, anti-kyriarchies of all kinds, and yes – as it’s becoming increasingly popular in a very well-argued way to throw out any use of capitalism for a freed market – anti-capitalist. I don’t reject the term libertarian-socialist, But I am such in a way marked out by the american libertarian/mutualist tradition. “Socialist ends by freed market means” as Gary Chartrier would put it, and not other sorts of libertarian socialism or communism that have a stronger Marxist base and don’t usually dovetail with the individualist/market philosophies known as libertarian in the American sense. (While I have a great deal of respect for those sorts).

    I have Austrian, Georgist/Geolibertarian, and Mutualist influences, and my precise notions of property and value are in flux, so I’m not a “pure” example of any kind of libertarian or left-lib, but a confused patchwork.

    I DO believe strongly in safety nets, regulation, socialized/mutualized aid, worker solidarity, and etc, but don’t believe the nation-state in it’s current form is going to get us the best forms of such. Yes, I’d happily take a Euro-style welfare Social Democrat state over the mess we have now, if I must, but I’d rather eliminate systems of privelege and capital concentration than leave them largely intact and use inefficient “redistribution”.

    and now I have to go lie down because I am being eaten by germs.

  61. Feel better, zhinxy.

  62. >>>BlackBloc: Personally, I think cynicism is a very adolescent position.

    Well I’m 32 and basically smack dab between Gen X and Millenials. Gen X is still pretty much stuck in that adolescent position, and I think that’s basically the impetus for Ron Paul’s popularity.

  63. Monsieur sans Nom

    If chivalry means opening doors for women and treating women with the same basic respect you’d accord to another man (so long as they don’t do anything wrong to you with no provocation and return the favor)then I’m all for it.

    On the other hand…….If chivalry means feeling guilty about being male and believing that society owes something to women just because they are female and without them having to work for it the way a man would, then fuck that I say! :-P

  64. @ OMNOMNOM: welcome to feminism! That’s how we feel too!

  65. MSN: forget chivalry. The only rule is: be decent to people regardless of their gender, and maybe even nice if that’s not too much to ask.
    Nobody asked you to be sorry for having a penis.

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