Life Before Feminism: A Map of the Open Country of a Woman’s Heart
An alert reader pointed me to this amazing “map” from the 1830s, posted on Ptak Science Books and originally found here. Described as “A Map of the Open Country of a Woman’s Heart,” it presents a less-than-flattering picture of the supposed shallowness, vanity and selfishness of the female of the species. Click on the pic above to see it full size.
It’s amazing how closely this resembles so many Manosphere “critiques” of evil modern women; the main difference is that it’s a bit more polite in its language. Also, no mention of stinky vaginas.
Manospherians love to talk about “taking the red pill,” as if their ideas are all new and cool and Matrixy. Actually, of course, their ideas are old as fuck. It’s more like they are taking a gulp of Dr. Flimflam’s Electro Magnetic Misogyny Fluid.
Below, another amazing picture also found on Ptak, which presents data on where women’s eyes linger when looking at men. (Again, click on it to see it full size.) I suspect this one would be a bit more confounding to the Manospherians of today, in that it doesn’t show women looking only at the dude’s wallet. The post on Ptak offers a more detailed explanation of what this picture is about.
Posted on January 20, 2012, in $MONEY$, evil women, life before feminism, misogyny, pics, reactionary bullshit, vaginas. Bookmark the permalink. 664 Comments.
I’m picturing a woman with a torso shaped like a male swimmer, but more exaggerated, so the upper chest is really wide and then it narrows sharply under that. But with giant boobs, and presumably a bra made out of solid steel.
Off topic but this sums up MRM exactly:
Let me see if I have this straight. You want to have s_x with us but…You want to limit our birth control, limit our choices, not hire us because we might get pregnant and you don’t have to deal with that if you hire a man. You won’t give us flex time so we can work and be mothers (again, just easier to hire a guy), pretty much force a stay home mom choice, and when we divorce, tell us we didn’t earn any of the assets so why should we get half so we wind up on assistance (because we have been out of the work force for a while) except you have cut that because we are all le @ches on society expecting someone else to pay our way. Did I miss anything?
MRAL
I kind of understand your pain. I have a 17 year old son who stole from his sister and our son-law red handed and denied it just before christmas.
Instead of admitting to it he took the opposite stance much like you do and considered himself a victim. In the end he threatened my son-in-law and didn’t send christmas with us.
I know he’s hurting by not spending Christmas with us, and it pains me. But I could not let his threats stand idle. I had to take a stance and not allow him to follow through on playing the victim to cause a confrontation which was unfounded.
This is you (minus perhaps the real physical threat, being that said son is a trained martial artist and MMA fighter ). Someone in your life has to tell you your behavior isn’t expectable.
It’s not anyones job on this blog to do this. If you don’t have parents to cut you off it’s really up to you.
It’s never o.k to bully others. That’s all I can give you.
Japan has the tradition of the kurisumasu keiki–the Christmas Cake–which means that women had better get married by the age of 25, or else, like a Christmas cake after the 25th, they will be past their use-by date, or something.
When I was there a number of years ago, however, most modern-thinking women were planning to get married by age 28, instead. So….progress?
(Don’t mind me, I’m just having fun with the old newspapers)
From 1860
FAST YOUNG LADIES.
Here’s a stunning set of us, Fast young ladies;
Here’s a flashy set of us, Fast young ladies;
Nowise shy or timorous, Up to all that men discuss.
Never mind how scandalous. Fast young ladies.
Wide-awakes our head adorn. Fast young ladies;
Feathers in our hats are worn, Fast young ladies;
Skirts hitched up on spreading frame. Petticoats as bright as flame,
Dandy high-heeled boots, proclaim Fast young ladies.
Riding habits are the go, Fast young ladies;
When we prance in Rotten Row, Fast young ladies;
Where we’re never at a loss On the theme of “that ‘ere ‘oss,”
Which, as yet, we do not cross. Fast young ladies.
There we scan, as bold as brass, Fast young ladies,
Other parties as they pass, Fast young ladies;
Parties whom our parents slow. Tell us we ought not to know;
Shouldn’t we, indeed? Why so. Fast young ladies?
On the Turf we show our face. Fast young ladies;
Know the odds of every race, Fast young ladies;
Talk, as sharp as any knife. Betting slang — we read Bell’s Life:
That’s the ticket for a wife, Fast young ladies!
We are not to be hooked in. Fast young ladies;
I require a chap with tin, Fast young ladies.
Love is humbug; cash the chief Article in my belief:
All poor matches come to grief, Fast young ladies.
Not to marry is my plan. Fast young ladies,
Any but a wealthy man. Fast young ladies.
Bother that romance and stuff! She who likes it is a muff;
We are better up to snuff, Fast young ladies.
Give me but my quiet weed, Fast young ladies.
Bitter ale and ample feed, Fast young ladies;
Pay my bills, porte-monnaie store. Wardrobe stock — I ask no more.
Sentiment we vote a bore, Fast young ladies
It doesn’t matter :) Guys like MRAL want women to settle for men they have no interest in. They want to shame women for daring to having preferences, meanwhile their own are so unrealistic as we’ve seen here.
Isn’t that always how it is? women need to always worry about pleasing others and not asking for too much, or else they’re bitches who will die alone. Take the list Magpie posted. At 21 I should just marry a hobo before my ovaries shrivel up and fall out. I refuse to be apologetic for what I find attractive in a man’s appearance. Many men have no problem openly talking about what they find hot and what they find ugly in a woman, so I’m not going stress over hurting the feelings of douchebags like MRAL who himself could care less about other people’s feelings.
Mind you, that ‘marry at 17′ advice was aimed at posh girls. When you look at eg marriage certificates for ordinary women, they often married in their twenties & thirties.
The Japanese actor referenced above (from Death Note) just got married to a woman who’s almost 10 years older than him last year, so…yeah. People still mouth off about the Christmas Cake stuff, but a lot of people delay marriage, and most men marry./date women their own age. I often work with Japanese people, and I am an olds (almost 40), and I haven’t noticed them being any more ageist than Americans on average.
BTW hot actor and his wife just had a baby a few months ago, so yay for them.
@ Quackers
His goal is pretty obviously to shame me (and all the other women here) into shutting up and not expressing any preferences because omg we should feel so guilty about that, we’re being such bitches, etc. What I’m curious about is why he’d think it would work on a blog like this, and why he’s surprised at the pushback he gets when he tries.
@Cassandra
He can do it all he wants, it’s just going to make me want to talk even more about my preferences in men and I’ll even talk about preferences for what the other guys here like in women. Basically I don’t see what the problem is unless we’re sitting here talking about what we find ugly in the opposite sex. It’s much nicer and more fun to talk about what we find sexy.
And maybe he thinks he can get away with it because he doesn’t consider this a true feminist blog or something. He has mentioned he thinks Manboobz is more moderate.
A good, sensible woman ignores her gina tingles and refuses to have sex with anyone unless it’s a pity fuck. This is the only way to ensure that you get with nice guys rather than alpha bad boy thugs because the gina is too wild for your good.
@Ozy I’ve seen that on so many erotic stories Ozy xD A lot of writers seem to believe that the number indicates the size of the actual breast.. so you get “she was the captain of the cheerleading squad, thin with decent sized breasts, about 44B” etc… xD
(Sam Spade voice) 42-28-38, she could have been any of those ages
@Shadow
hahaha!
I did at one point start (but never finish) a short story called The Vagina Dialogues, in which the narrator is constantly arguing with her vagina about which men they should have sex with.
I want that one, he’s hot! No, remember that Mom said to avoid men like that? We should date Dave, he’s very responsible and he’s going to med school. But I don’t want to have sex with Dave, he’s boring! But he is nice…Yes, nice and really boring! We should go talk to that hot guy who’s sitting over there talking to his friends instead.
And etc.
And yeah, Quackers, I agree completely. I kind of wish that everyone would start getting even more talkative about their preferences at this point just because it’s so obvious that he is trying to bully us into silence, and that’s not acceptable.
Also does anyone else find it really bizarre that MRAL keeps expecting us to get upset or angry about his preferences? I guess it must be a projection issue where he assumes that what makes him mad makes other people mad too, but it’s sort of baffling why anyone would think that someone going “I like petite, pale women with dark hair and big boobs” would make people either yell at them or burst into tears.
What about those of us who are insensitive enough to be gay?
Interestingly enough he doesn’t seem to have anything in particular against lesbians, and he doesn’t bug Lauralot about being asexual even though she seems to be his type.
@ Cassandrasays – There’s actually a movie from the Seventies called Chatterbox! that’s pretty much exactly that, except that – as a way to pad it out to full feature length, and to make it something other than a straight porno – they give “Virginia” a great singing voice as well. I guess she’d been so frustrated for so long that she needed more than one way to express herself.
@Rutee
You pose a conundrum to the MRM. Smart enough to avoid the alpha bad boys while simultaneously being too entitled for the nice guys of the world.
He did seem to react to my saying I’m not attracted to Katy Perry as though I was telling him he was wrong to feel differently. Which I wasn’t.
Now that’s odd.
I think it all goes back to that myopic worldview of his that everyone’s noticed. What he believes is The Truth. If people disagree then they are wrong and they are claiming that he is wrong
Also my guess would be that it’s tied up somehow with feeling like society considers his desires illegitimate, or something like that. Then again a lot of straight men seem to police each other’s preferences so the response to Dracula could just be that.
Either that or, like Shadow said, he was trying to convince me I was wrong. He made some weird issue out of it anyway.
(old papers again) a boarding school described as “an elegant receptacle for young ladies”.
That gave me the giggles :)
The movie? Yeah it is. You never actually see “Virginia”, if you’re wondering – probably would have been as disturbing as that singing penis commercial if they had.
Anyway, it was funny enough, but it had a disappointing ending. After a series of adventures that include a cheerful gangbang with a basketball team, several Virginia-pleasing cads (the one who sticks out in my mind is the fellow who played out a full knight-in-armor fantasy who refused to see her again after because any particular woman can only be his “princess” once) and a singing career for Virginia that leaves her burned out on fame, Virginia’s owner Penelope goes back to the boring boyfriend…who isn’t even that nice when you get right down to it.
On the other hand, we’re left with some hope. The last time we see them, his penis is singing, too, so perhaps he was frustrated by all the perfunctory, unimaginative sex they’d been having before and is now prepared to learn better.
The Seventies, man. The Seventies.
I meant MRAL’s getting pissy at Dracula for not being attracted to Katy Perry. The movie sounds odd too, but in a good way, or maybe just in a 70s way. It wasn’t until my teens that it dawned on me that my parents and their friends had spent most of the 70s wasted.
For me, men have the tendency to become more attractive depending on their close proximity to cute animals.
http://igossip.com/gossip/Jake_Gyllenhaal_-20/553132
but it’s not like Jake Gyllenhaal wasn’t gorgeous before…
Srsly inorite? I don’t get it at all. I mean, bad writing, yes, but even that this has become some sort of shorthand for OMG HOT. Is it some kind of number fetish? What time *does* the train get into the station?
It isn’t just MRAL. Most people don’t seem to have much of a grasp of how bra sizes work. I always like to do the experiment of plugging my measurements into various bra size calculators online. I got anywhere from 34B to 42AAA. On one it said my boobs don’t exist, since the difference between band and bust was only 2.5 inches.
Doesn’t really matter. Basically, I just wear stretchy bras and to heck with it, since (oh noes) I have no tits anyhow and cup bras make me look like I had a bad boob job. Stretchy bras just make sure everything stays in one place most of the time. I guess titless me is unappealing to someone like MRAL. HURRAY!!
Regarding Christmas Cake, last I heard the average age of marriage in Japan was 25 for women. I did meet a lot of people who got married around 40 or late 30s because the working lifestyle of most salarymen doesn’t really allow for a whole lot of dating and meeting girls (also, the whole socially awkward thing, which seems to be on the rise).
But a lot of young women are still out in college to get their MRS, or work for a few years before getting married and quitting (and many companies will still encourage you to quit after marriage or just never promote you in the first place so that nothing bad will happen if you do get married and/or have babies). Which is frustrating and sad. I don’t know how many bright young women I met who aspired to work a few years and then get married and become a housewife. The society encourages that, so … well …
Oh. Yeah, that’s weird, but it’s consistent. He’s pretty much always considered disagreement to be the same thing as telling the other person they’re wrong. After all, that’s how he’s always done it.
That, and he probably still believes in that asinine Greek system. Remember the tantrum he had a while back when someone said they weren’t attracted to Brad Pitt, and he took that to mean that they, having scorned the archetypal Alpha, must think that much less of all other men (especially himself)?
Found the bachelor’s version of the young ladies’ list. It’s much longer, it goes from age 16 to 60, so I’ll only put it here if anyone’s interested.
Well, to be fair, Lesbians are rather crunchy.
Oh, please do!
The amount of college aged (high school too) women who are still planning on MRS degrees is pretty surprising. I live in a heavily populated military town and being an army wife is actually considered some type of occupation. Not that stay at home moms don’t do a lot of work, I just can’t imagine that being married a soldier to be a way of living that would be my first option. I’m pretty privileged though.
However, for those women who can’t afford to go to college and are largely uneducated I can empathized that army wife might be one of the few options that they have available to support themselves after they get past the age of living with their parents.
Hmmmm….it appears I’ve been placed on moderation
No. Although, put in that light, one might consider that banning him would really be for the benefit of his personal growth. Boundary setting and alla that.
“That, and he probably still believes in that asinine Greek system. Remember the tantrum he had a while back when someone said they weren’t attracted to Brad Pitt, and he took that to mean that they, having scorned the archetypal Alpha, must think that much less of all other men (especially himself)?”
Actually that may have been me…again, blonds. Pitt rather strongly resembles what I imagine my childhood enemy would look like as an adult, based on the last time I saw him when he was a teenager, which is not really conducive to thinking sexy thoughts about him. (That must baffle MRAL, actually, since he seems to think that it’s normal to feel hostility towards people you’re attracted to.)
The whole Greek thing is so odd. I mean sure, there are some things that are universally considered attractive almost anywhere (symmetrical features, clear skin), and you can more or less determine who is and isn’t considered conventionally attractive, but there’s so much variation in terms of actual individual preferences that the whole system becomes meaningless as soon as you try to apply it to actual dating behavior. I mean look at the guys I’ve been posting here – I’m willing to bet that the a high percentage of women here wouldn’t agree with me on some or most of them, and that would be the case for almost anyone who posted their list of men they have the hots for. There’s usually some overlap – apparently everyone here wants to bang David Tennant and Naveen Andrews – but even then, check it out – we have 2 men who seem to be very popular with the women here, and they look nothing like each other.
Well, good people…as I await to taken off moderation, you will be happy to know that I am exfoliating with my new butterfly knife.
from 1824
THE BACHELOR’S REGISTER
At 16 years incipient palpitations are manifested towards the young ladies.
17. Much blushing and confusion occurs when addressed by a handsome woman.
18. Confidence in conversation with the ladies is much increased,
19. Becomes angry if treated by them as a boy.
20. Betrays great consciousness of his own charms and manliness.
21. A looking-glass becomes and indispensable piece of furniture in his dressing- room, and in some instances finds its way into the pocket.
22. Insufferable puppyism now exhibited.
23. Thinks no woman good enough to enter the marriage state with him.
24. Is caught unawares by the snare of Cupid.
25. The connection broken off from self-conceit on his part.
26. Conducts himself with airs of much superiority towards her.
27. Pays his addresses to another lady, not without hopes of mortifying the first.
28. Is mortified and frantic on being re- fused.
29. Rails against the fair sex in general as heartless beings.
30. Seems morose and out of humour in all conversations on matrimony.
31. Contemplates matrimony more un- der the influence on interest than previously.
32. Begins to consider personal beauty in a wife not so indispensable as formerly.
33. Still retains a high opinion of his at- tractions as a husband.
34. Consequently has the hope that he may still marry a chicken.
35. Falls deeply and violently in love with one of seventeen.
36. Au dernier desespoir! another refusal.
37. Indulges now in every kind of dissipation.
38. Shuns the best part of the female sex, and finds some consolation for his spleen in the society of ladies of easy dis- positions.
39. Suffers much remorse and mortifica- tion in so doing.
40. Begins to think he is growing old, yet still feels a fresh budding of matri- monial ideas, but no spring shoots.
41. A nice, buxom young widow begins to perplex him.
42. Ventures to address her with mixed sensations of love and interest.
43. Interest prevails, which causes much cautious reflection.
44. The widow jilts him, being full as cautious as himself.
45. Becomes every day more gloomy and averse to the fair sex.
46. Gouty and nervous symptoms now begin to assail him.
47. Fears what may become of him when he gets old and infirm; but still persuades himself he is a young man.
48. Thinks living alone irksome.
49. Resolves to have a prudent young woman as house-keeper aud companion.
50. A nervous affection about him, and frequent attacks of the gout.
51. Much pleased with his new house- keeper as a nurse.
52. Begins to feel some attachment to her.
53. His pride revolts at the idea of marrying her.
54. Is in great distress how to act.
55. Completely under her influence and very miserable.
56. Many painful thoughts about parting with her, and attempts to gain her on his own terms.
57. She refuses to live any longer with him solo.
58. Gouty, nervous, and billious to excess.
59. Feels very ill, sends for her to his bedside and promises to espouse her.
60. Grows rapidly worse, has his will made in her favour, and makes his exit in her arms.
I only knew one person who actually used the phrase “MRS degree” (as in, she was looking for one, which is why she was perusing “The Rules” books). I literally had no idea what she was talking about until she spelled it out. (Context complicated because I knew her as someone who was also interested in going to the graduate program I was then in). It…didn’t make me think more highly of her, I have to say, but then there were a lot of factors there. Just: ugh, naff and simpery.
That map gives women way too much credit, IMO. When it comes to the contents of a chick’s head I think Panty & Stocking got it right, but maybe that’s because it’s a more contemporary work:
Okay, so it’s still vastly unfair that the dude gets until 60 while she’s washed up at 24. On the other hand: apparently he EXPIRES at the age of 60. Cause, 60, damn that’s ancient.
Maybe there’s something to be said for “changing expectations going along with extended lifespans.”
Which, in this era where some record number of people who make it past their 100th birthday keeps getting broken, makes Roissy’s insistence on approximately the same age range as wossname in 1830 (15 is great! 24 is too late!) even creepier.
Arks, do you like New York in June?
…don’t we all, really?
BAWK
I wonder if, like many of his kind, Roissy’s ideal age range will keep getting younger as he gets older, until finally he’s only interested in girls who haven’t hit puberty yet. He seems like one of those guys who thinks that he can recapture his own youth by fucking young people.
-shudder-
Go tell it on the mountain, over the hill and everywhereeeeeee.
Go tell it on the mountain, to let my comments goooooooooooo.
Who’s that yonder dressed in red
[Refrane]
Must be the children that Moses lead.
[Refrane]
Who’s that yonder dressed in red. Must be the children that Moses lead.
Go tell it on the mountain, over the hill and everywhereeeeeee.
Go tell it on the mountain, to let my comments goooooooooooo.
Who’s that yonder dressed in white
[Refrane]
Must the of the children of the Israelites
[Refrane]
Who’s that yonder dressed in white. Must be the children of the Israelites.
Go tell it on the mountain, over the hill and everywhereeeeeee.
Go tell it on the mountain, to let my comments goooooooooooo.
——-
[Refrane] Let my people go
Well, lowquacks still can’t blockquote.
lowquacks is funny, though :)
Yeah, I always get a Elizabeth Bathory vibe from older PUAs. And Hugh Hefner.
There’s a “carousel?”
Now I’m thinking about an MRA version of “Something Wicked This Way Comes.” Creepy old dude gets on the giant chicken and rides around backward until he’s a creepy little boy…actually, that was pretty much the original, minus the chicken. I think.
I keep wanting to remind those guys that youth is not an STD – you can’t catch it by fucking someone who still has it.
They’re alpha cocks. You know they won’t marry this (PAST IT!) 34-year-old. Hence carousel. He’ll have to hope for a beta provider cock to ensnare to show up.
At 16 years incipient palpitations are manifested towards the young ladies.
I love the wording here. It’s priceless.
At 16, though? I guess puberty must have hit later back then.
And what are the contents of your head, Arks? I’m afraid to find out.
Yeah, I think my “palpitations” began a bit earlier than described.
@CassandraSays
But all the young men had such magnificent moustaches! Or perhaps were just drawn that way.
I wonder if they sold fake mustaches back then…or something to make your mustache look more luxuriant, like a Bump-It but for your lip.
Well, in Blackadder’s Christmas Carol he’s working in a mustache shop. So it must be true. :)
@CassandraSays
I’ve never heard of anything like that, and I quite like reading about pre-20th-century grooming and clothing, but it’s possible. I’m not really an expert (on anything). As an 18-year-old with a handlebar moustache, I will point out that the length of such a thing does make it look thicker. Waxing helps too. The moustaches shown in old illustrations weren’t impossible; it just seems unlikely that such nice mos were so common. Mine’s slightly crappy and I’m about as beardy as I’ve ever seen an Anglo 18-year-old be.
Perhaps I just notice nice moustaches more because I like them, and then overestimate how common they were in Victorian and pre-Victorian illustrations, like when MRA’s assume all women are white cis het middle-class conventionally attractive etc. 20-year-olds? Alternatively, I might assume the people depicted are meant to be younger than was the artist’s intention because fresh-facedness is easier to draw (is it? not my field) or better-looking and people were drawn as younger-looking?
It’s not really an annoyance I’ve examined, is what I’m trying to say.
Actually, I do remember reading about a late-18th-century female pirate captain who wore a false beard, which implies that there were some fairly resilient examples of such that were convincing in more than just a theatrical setting.
advertisement from 1843
Wigs, Fronts, Moustaches, Ringlets, etc etc
made to order at the lowest possible price, from nature’s choicest curl, and of any of her varied hues.
Well there you go. It’s amazing what the Googles can do.
Magpie, between the name and the Advance Australia Fair gag in the other thread, would I be wrong in assuming you’re also girt by sea?
I spent part of my youth in the Middle East so I’m used to seeing 13 year olds with mustaches, which is probably why I’ve never noticed men in old photos as being especially luxuriant of stache. I think in general illustrations are not at all reflective of what people actually looked like though – they’re more reflective of what the ideal was considered to be. Like an old-school version of Photoshop. I don’t know the era, but there was one period of art historically where all the women were painted with tiny sloping shoulders, since apparently that was what was considered beautiful at the time.
lowquacks, yup, but somewhat to the south of you, going by your pic?
For the record, I was just making a joke about using a television comedy as a source of historical fact. (Not that I was accusing anyone here of doing that, mind.) I wasn’t actually trying to cast doubt on the veracity of commercially available false facial hair.
Sorry if it seemed that way.