Does A Voice for Men really think that firebombing is a form of non-violence?
Reading through some comments on Men’s Rights hub A Voice for Men the other day, I ran across a fairly bloodthirsty contribution from an MRA with the charming nickname Brutal Antipathy, suggesting that the Occupy Wall Street protesters needed a bit of what he called “the ol’ Tienanmen Square treatment.”
Mr. Antipathy’s rhetorical outburst struck me as fairly typical of the tough-guy rhetoric that the site’s regulars love to indulge in — though usually the targets of the rhetoric are feminists, not Occupy Wall Street activists.
So I was a bit surprised to see site founder Paul Elam respond with this:
It seems a little odd for Elam to claim to be shocked — shocked! — to find such rhetoric on his site. Elam, after all, seems to positively revel in making his own vaguely threatening pronouncements towards his ideological enemies.
In a recent fundraising appeal, for example, Elam let out all the stops:
We now have a team of individuals that goes beyond what we advertise on our pages, and we are gearing up to add a new doomsday prophesy to 2012. Let’s put it this way: The fembots better hope the Mayan’s were right about next year, because they would rather deal with that than the things we are cooking up. …
Progress for men will not be gained by debate, reason or typical channels of grievance available to segments of the population that the world actually gives a damn about. The progress we need will only be realized by inflicting enough pain on the agents of hate, in public view, that it literally shocks society out of its current coma.
Elam is purposefully vague about just what he means by “inflicting pain,” but it is hard not to read this comment as a threat of something dire.
Others on the site are similarly fond of this sort of vague, threatening language. MRA blogger Fidelbogen, recently brought on board as a contributor to AVfM, let loose in a recent comment on those who think MRAs should tone down their rhetoric towards feminists and other enemies:
Apparently, Elam believes that the deliberate vagueness of these kinds of threats makes them shining examples of Gandhian non-violence — or at least that it gives the site the requisite “plausible deniability” if — when? — someone actually moves beyond the threats to actual violence.
It’s ok, evidently, to talk about “inflicting pain” on your enemies, so long as you don’t specify just how. It’s ok to boast about frightening your enemies, to muse about “stalking” individual feminists, to post their personal information online, and so on and so on.
Heck, apparently it’s not even a problem if someone, using the personal information provided on the site, actually tracks down individuals targeted by Elam and pals and quite literally kills them. As AVfM managing editor John the Other put it in a recent post (which I wrote about here):
And what if they get killed David? What if rather than be arrested – as promoters of hate, and public advocates of murder, what if these depraved and murderous female supremacists come to harm at the hands of a citizen. If that happens, it will mean that a society’s system of law, designed to prevent hate organizations, and to allow redress of grievance through non violent due process is gone, wiped out by your ideology of violence and hate.
Nonetheless, JtO, like Elam, insists that “I do not and will not lend myself to the support of violence, or indeed, of murder.”
But all this dancing around the issue of violence is rather a moot point, given the one rather striking exception that Elam has allowed to his “no explicit advocacy of violence” rule.
And that is the terrorist manifesto he’s been hosting on his site since last summer.
I’m referring, of course, to the lengthy manifesto written by Tom Ball, a man who burned himself to death on the steps of a courthouse in Keane, New Hampshire last summer in a protest against what he saw as unfair treatment in family court.
Ball has been hailed as a hero in numerous articles on AVfM, and he is mentioned in an “invocation” in the new theme song for AVfM Radio.
The manifesto is posted on AVfM — in its “activism” category.
What sort of “activism” did Ball advocate? Hint: It involves Molotov cocktails, and government buildings.
In his words (emphasis mine):
So boys, we need to start burning down police stations and courthouses. … [T]he dirty deeds are being carried out by our local police, prosecutors and judges. These are the people we pay good money to protect us and our families. And what do we get for our tax money? Collaborators who are no different than the Vichy of France or the Quislings of Norway during the Second World War. All because they go along to get along. They are an embarrassment, the whole lot of them. And they need to be held accountable. So burn them out. …
There is no evidence that the police, courts, or government is planning to do anything different in the immediate future. And they will not do anything different until we make it so uncomfortable that they must change. Bureaucracy at its worst. So burn them out. This is too important to be using that touchy- feeling coaching that is so popular with business these days. You need to flatten them, like Wile E. Coyote. They need to be taught never to replace the rule of law. BURN-THEM-OUT!
Most of the police stations built in New England over the last 20 years are stone or brick. Fortunately, the roofs are still wood. The advantage of fire on the roof is that it is above the sprinklers. But even the sprinklers going off work to our advantage. There is no way they can work in a building with six inches of water. And I am certain we will disrupt their momentum once they start working out of a FEMA
At this point the AVfM editors cut Ball off in mid-sentence, and insert this “Editor’s note”:
Editor’s note:
Several paragraphs in this copy of Mr Ball’s original letter have been omitted. The omitted paragraphs contained detailed instructions on the manufacture and use of simple incendiary devices.
If you are really interested in seeing the omitted sections, you can find the complete manifesto elsewhere in the Mansophere.
Ball was quite serious about all this, and hoped that his self-immolation would inspire other “activists” to “manufacture and use” his favored sort of “simple incendiary devices,” as the AVfM editors gingerly put it. Ball himself was a bit more blunt:
I only managed to get the main door of the Cheshire County Courthouse in Keene, NH. I would appreciate it if some of you boys would finish the job for me. They harmed my children. The place is evil. So take it out. …
And bring a can of spray paint to these fires. Paint the word COLLABORATORS ( two L’s with an S on the end) on the building before you burn it.
Ball frankly acknowledged that if others followed his suggestions, people would die:
There will be some casualties in this war. Some killed, some wounded, some captured. Some of them will be theirs. Some of the casualties will be ours.
How does Ball’s explicit advocacy of terrorist acts directed at government buildings, acts that if carried out would almost inevitably mean the deaths of people within those buildings, square with Elam’s purported no-advocacy-of-violence policy for his website?
You’ll have to ask him. I have no fucking clue.
Posted on January 12, 2012, in a voice for men, antifeminism, grandiosity, hypocrisy, MRA, oppressed men, paul elam, terrorism, threats. Bookmark the permalink. 294 Comments.
I NEED SCISSORS 61
BTW, I am really sorry for dragging this whole thing off-topic, gyrls. You can get back to your hi-larious jokes about burned fetuses now. :)
If you are implying that it’s the MRA’s who advocate and embrace violence that make peaceful revolution impossible, then yes. Those idiots aren’t helping the cause and they aren’t going to convince anyone that men aren’t aren’t violent rapists by advocating violence and excusing rape.
MLKJR day is coming up, coincidentally. Hint hint.
Forweg, it must be really fucking hard to feel so superior for so few reasons.
Do you like the firebombing thing or do you just ignore it really hard?
Forweg, the bar here has been set pretty high for trolling. You’re going to have to tell us that women deserve to be enslaved or make up statistics about homosexuality to make us care at all.
I’ve noticed that Elam is now giving people associated with his site little titles — he’s got a “managing editor” and a “research editor” and maybe more?
Obviously this is a great idea. Because nothing says nothing says “real serious web publication and not some dude’s collection of rants with some by his friends too” than having a bunch of “editors.”
So I would like to appoint some of you as fake editors too! You can choose to be either a Man Boobz editor OR a Voice for Men editor. Or both! None of these jobs involve any responsibilities whatsoever. You have to make up your own titles, though.
For example, I’ve appointed myself Man Boobz Assistant Regional Managing Editor, as well as Deputy Associate Kitten Edtior. And I’ve also appointed myself Incoherent Yelling at Ladies on the Street Editor for AVfM.
Your turn!
Burned fetuses are hilarious when they’re Knithulus gone awry.
This is going back to much earlier in the comments, but someone reminded me of the rally that AVFM is having in March. Any plans to attend, Dave?
Can… can I be an intern? Working in the “group singing and liking each other” division?
Well considering the consensus by a lot of the regular users here is that I am a troll I can probably meet Holly’s challenge.
Firebombing is not ok. Threats of firebombings are not ok. Paul Elam is a shitty MRA (redundant) for posting the firebombing stuff, he’s not helping men’s rights (just most, if not all, self proclaimed MRA are not helping any of the causes they seem to care about).
Short, sweet and to the point. I am sure it will be misrepresented by someone.
I’m Arrogant Bitch Editor, obviously, but I would also like to apply for the position of Making Fun of Meller Editor.
Ha!
Mistress/Mangina of Editing
Vichy of Editing
Quisling of Editing
Grand Vizir of Gynocratic Re-Education
Grand Poobah of Manginatown
LOL I’m not feeling very creative at the moment but I think we need at least a Grand Vizir since it’s vaguely Arabic sounding and thus extra sinister!
I’m the Super Editor, Assistant Hippo and Chief Slut. (Cuz it’s not feminism unless someone is slutting around all the time!)
There should perhaps also be an Undersecretary to the Chief Slut XD
I’m also Chief of Staff for Making Insecure Boys Feel Bad By Not Wanting To Bang Random Celebrities.
You are all appointed!
Crumb, I think I might miss that rally. I’d like to propose that from now on we refer to it as the Million MRA March.
“Firebombing is not ok. Threats of firebombings are not ok. Paul Elam is a shitty MRA (redundant) for posting the firebombing stuff, he’s not helping men’s rights (just most, if not all, self proclaimed MRA are not helping any of the causes they seem to care about).”
You are not very bright.
What would happen, if they held a rally and nobody came?
Same thing that happened last time, probably. I wonder if they’ll have booze? Maybe we should go, drink their booze, and then leave. It can be a symbol of how feminists are destroying society – first we take their jobs, then we take their cheap off-brand vodka.
Wonderful. Now both sides hate me. My life is complete. *sigh*
Though, I do have a typo… “(just most” should say “(Just like most”
My bad.
Cassandra: What would happen if nobody came? I would guess that would be typical for men going their own way.
Can I be the officially recognized Editor of Profanity, Obscenity, and Inappropriate Personal Disclosures?
I have a very impressive resume.
Is it because he doesn’t approve of firebombing, and firebombing, like, the very very best? Is that why?
There should be an “is” in there somewhere. I think my mistake:no mistake comment ratio is like 3:1
I nominate Holly Editor of Amusing and Topically Relevant Cartoons.
“Wonderful. Now both sides hate me. My life is complete. *sigh*
Though, I do have a typo… “(just most” should say “(Just like most”
My bad.”
I don’t know enough about you to hate you, and I am no representative of any side. Don’t get ahead of yourself.
I would just like for you to explain yourself. How is Elam hurting men’s rights by “posting the firebombing stuff”?
“I don’t know enough about you to hate you, and I am no representative of any side. Don’t get ahead of yourself.”
…Brandon? But no – last sentence does not contain any references to self, therefore can’t possibly be Brandon.
Hope these guys realise that by calling David “creepy”, they’re giving up all rights to complain about the word. I’m glad. I think creeps are funny. The MRA PC police took dick damage humor away from me, let me keep my creepshaming please. ;)
Advocating firebombing causes you to be ignored as a loon if people think you’re not going to do it, and raided by the FBI if people think you’re going to do it.
Neither of these frees men from the Boot Of Gynocratic Tyranny one bit.
“I would just like for you to explain yourself. How is Elam hurting men’s rights by “posting the firebombing stuff”?”
Because no one is going to take anything you have to say seriously when you support terrorism and because the MRM already has enough of an image problem beeing seen as a buch of violent radicals who can’t be reasoned with.
bunch*
Funny creep video is funny.
Oh noes! Misandry, hypergamy, etc.
Holly and Crumb pretty much answered your question. If you would like, I could add more,. But it would seem to be redundant and also redundant.
“Same thing that happened last time.”
Wait,there was a last time? what happened?
“Wait,there was a last time? what happened?”
I think maybe 4 or 5 guys showed up at the last MRA rally I heard about? It wasn’t exactly a rousing success.
So you agree with their answers? In other words, you blindly accept Futrelle’s framing of Elam’s words and actions without question? Why?
T-rex hands kills me every time. Especially since I know a gay creep who totally does that.
I wonder if it’s ok to creepshame gay and female creeps?
Reframe it for us, then, if you’re not just here to bananas elephant rutabaga.
Why do you think it’s okay? What framing makes you support it?
@Leni
Go for it!!! The more creeps the better. With your help, we can eradicate creepdom by 2015, leaving a brighter tomorrow for our children
“So you agree with their answers? In other words, you blindly accept Futrelle’s framing of Elam’s words and actions without question? Why?”
How else can we frame it?
Thomas Ball wrote extensively about his desire to firebomb courthouses and police stations with Molotovs.
Elam chose this song called “Going My Own Way” as the official AVFM theme song. The song makes a direct reference to Ball and says that “his death will not go in vain”
The theme for Elam’s website makes a direct reference honoring a man who advocated firebombing. If Elam doesn’t support Ball’s ideas (about firebombing) then why include him in the song? This isn’t some elaborate, roundabout path we’re taking to reach this conclusion.
Crumbelievable – Also, the fact that Elam has Ball’s manifesto, including the firebombing parts, up on his website is at least suggestive that it isn’t there for decoration.
“I think maybe 4 or 5 guys showed up at the last MRA rally I heard about? It wasn’t exactly a rousing success.”
I wish I could have been there to give my best Nelson impersonation
I am going to be NWOSlave Memorial Fellowship Professor of Troll Logic & Associate Editor of Slobbering Crotch-Maws.
More seriously (or less seriously, ’cause you a troll, forweg), if you repeatedly celebrate the actions of someone who advocated firebombing, and have their manifesto on your website, you yourself have created a context or framing or whatever that makes it seem like you condone said advocation of firebombing. Typically if you agree with a radical theorist (“theorist” in Ball’s case) who advocates violence or destruction or something like that, but you don’t actually agree with the violence/destruction part, you’ll say somewhere that “hey, this part’s horrible and I disagree with this”. Somebody actually committed to non-violent means of protest would feel a duty to condemn such rhetoric. Elam has not. Therefore we can conclude he’s probably not all that committed to non-violence. This is a reasonable conclusion given some of the other comments he’s let through and the ambiguous threats he’s constantly making. The end.
Ook! Ook! If there’s special titles going I’d like, “Guest Feminazi Conspiracy Writer” please!
(I was thinking about inventing some other titles or post-nominals such as “Great Southern Hemisphere Panjandrum of the Holy Gynocratic Supremacist Empire” or “Dame Grand Cross of the Order of the Hot Buttered Manatee”, but either of those are a bit of a mouthful, really.)
“Reframe it for us, then”
I already have, silly goose.
“Why do you think it’s okay? What framing makes you support it?”
In many ways, I empathize with Mr. Ball’s plight and decision to end his own life in protest. I support the full publishing of Mr. Ball’s extremely long suicide note with as little censorship as possible, including the few references to firebombing. It does not follow that I support firebombing buildings.
Understood? Of course you do. You most likely already did.
Oh, wait, this is Manboobz… quick, look the other way! Back to the burnt fetuses, gyrls!
Wouldn’t it be “hot buttered dugongs” in your part of the world, Xanthe? XD
I’m pretty sure you’re the only one talking about burnt fetuses, forwyg.
Delusional troll is delusional. What a sad, pathetic little creature.
(And yes, kladle, I did think about substituting dugongs, but decided not to be obscurantist.)
Can I be Senior Consultant on Saying Swears?
also, if people are posting videos, it’s unrelated music time!
simpsons reference? that means it’s time for this again!
Anyone who doesn’t know what a dugong is doesn’t belong here, I say.
Or rather, anyone who doesn’t know what a dugong is should immediately be subjected to a rigorous multimedia course in aquatic mammals.
lesser version, but still kind of cool
Why? Killing yourself “in protest” of a situation you caused is about the most manipulative bullshit tactic one can pull.
What exactly was he protesting? Unfair treatment in the courts? Do you honestly think any responsible person should have given a suicidal pseudo-terrorist with a history of child abuse charges custody of his children? Really? Should they just have ignored his financial responsibility to his children, their responsibility to protect children, and let him go on his merry way so he wouldn’t have to feel bad?
I’m sorry, but the fact that the man lit himself on fire rather than go to therapy is a Big Obvious Indication that the dude belonged in the court system.
I sympathize with the plight of schizophrenics who think that government agents are listening to their thoughts through television sets. This doesn’t mean that I think the government is actually listening to our thoughts through television sets. See the difference? If such a person committed suicide in protest of alleged governmental telepathy, I would see it as a failure of the courts to deal with people with mental illness, not proof that the government has telepathic tv powers. Get it?
i actually can’t even get all the way through the nimoy version (i love him but he’s no dylan thomas), but i recognize that some people have crap taste so i offered both
either way- ‘whales weep not': one of the best poems ever?
Wow, I never knew how many from the Manboobz flock are Canadians. Poor Canada!
I think Elam also refers to himself as Dean of Students? And as Publisher. He is, technically, a publisher. In the same way that I am publishing my words here on Manboobz – a website published by David Futrelle.
A more accurate and honest title for Paul Elam could be one/all of the following;
“Frustrated, Wannabe Writer/Intellectual”
“Bogus Civil Rights Organization Leader”
“Negative Attention from Feminists To Achieve Erection Seeker”
“Facial Hair & Misogny Enthusiast”
“Scatalogical and Anal Obsessed Philosophist ”
“Titanic Death Cult Priest”
The possibilities are endless…
One of the first posts I read from Manboobz was this one – it shows Elam for what he is;
http://manboobz.blogspot.com/2010/11/paul-elams-vanishing-post-blaming-and.html
Compare and contrast with the gentle, concerned Elam here (of his imagination);
http://www.helium.com/items/1393688-sexual-abuse-therapy-drug-abuse
Which one is the real you, Paul? The one who actually *sees* the terrible damage wrought by sexual abuse, or the glad-handing, victim hating MRA, playing to his sad, embittered demographic?
Because we know how to click on a link and many of us have read many of Elam’s writing.
agree != blindly follow
I’m already Mistress of Hounds, but I’ll expand my portfolio to be Editor at Large, Hound and Baby Issues.
Lauralot, I crocheted a mini Cthulhu this Christmas. It turned out super- cute. I wish i could find a simple Dalek pattern – the only ones I’ve seen ate too big and time-consuming.
I am the official Cephalopod Editor. Clearly.
Forweg: If I were to post large sections of Mary Daly’s books on my website without condemning her “men should be reduced to ten percent of the population” comments, would you assume I agree with her on that point?
I’m Boss Humorless Bitch and Southern Region Assistant District Manager Cat Lady.
@Happy Anti-MRA :
One thing is sure, Paul Elam want to be a cult leader for closeted sociopaths and he loves the attention he gets. I’m sure he has more followings with his posting now than he had a few years ago.
Polliwog: re non-insulting insults.
Exactly. Plus using “y” (gyrls, wymmnz) etc. just reminds me fondly of the good old radical lexicography and orthography of the 70s and 80s when we was kicking the “men” out of Womyn!)
Good times, good times (*some sarcasm there since other elements of radical feminism of that time were racism and transphobia).
@ No More Mr Nice Guy
You could well be onto something – Elam’s readership didn’t seem to be going anywhere until he started AVfM. Although, even now, there seem to be a few dozen hardcore adherants to his site and plenty of rubber-neckers, like our good selves.
If you read even a few comments by Elam, it quickly becomes clear that he has a seriously immature outlook on what debate is. He has finished E-mails with “I win!”, constantly has to claim victory – including when it is clear he’s made a fool out of himself – and then contradicts himself in the most blatant way.
He’s an oddity. I have just finished watching one of his videos – he described how he would never allow another woman to become a financial liability. I didn’t realise there enough money in counseling to support two people…
TITLES! We GET titles! YAY!
I think I am Raving Researcher, Coiner of Alliterative Polysyllabic Insults, and one of the MANY Cat Lady Administrators!
forweg: Elam is hosting a letter on the site that openly advocates the idea that in this supposed war that is going on that deaths will occur and that some of them will be the “other side”. While the directions on how to make a bomb are removed, the general idea that people they oppose will be dying still stands.
David correctly states that the letter is listed in a section called “activism”.
David correctly quotes Elam in supporting the idea that those he opposes must have pain inflicted on them.
I see no other way to frame it other than the AV4M site is advocating violence against those they disagree with. So when he comes in and berates someone for suggesting Tienanmen square treatment… the MRA doth protest to much, me thinks.
I took the Assistant DM position because I figured you’d want the DM title for our region, Itiliana! :)
I’ll be Assistant to the Regional Managing Editor. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to tend to my beet farm.
Hellkell: I’ve always tried to avoid the upper administrative positions because of all the report writing! And paperwork! The quarterly litterbox orders alone would ruin a good week!
And trying to keep up with the tuna distribution! A nightmare!
lj4, you’re being…surprisingly reasonable. At the moment. You’re not going to pull an MRAL on us, are you?