How to spot a feminist
Some feminists can be converted!
Over on Reddit, DoktorTeufel has a problem: he likes the ladies, but he doesn’t like the feminists. Unfortunately, some ladies are also feminists! And therein lies the danger. Naturally, he turns to the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit for help.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I will never knowingly enter into a romantic relationship with a feminist. I do have some female relatives and acquaintances who are feminists … and it’s not like they all wear signs that proclaim I’M A FEMINIST. (Some do.)
Aside from obvious telltales (feminist bumper stickers, etc.) or outright asking them “Are you a feminist?”, what are some discreet ways to ferret out a woman’s views on gender activism without creating an awkward situation? Feminism is a minefield topic, and I certainly wouldn’t broach the subject directly with a woman I’ve just started dating.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, he received much helpful advice. Celda broke it down for him:
You don’t really care whether she identifies as a feminist or not – you care what her views are.
For instance, does she feel women have the right to force men into parental obligations against their will?
Does she feel women are oppressed in Western society?
Does she think that women make less money than men for the same work?
If yes to these questions or similar, then you probably want to avoid her.
Exactly. Always avoid those with a basic grasp on reality. They’re the worst!
Naive1000 suggested looking for more subtle clues.
Ask their thoughts on “benevolent sexism” if they know what your talking about you likely have a feminist. Just to make sure go into male privilege, it’s the feminists’ most popular talking point. Let her talk about it then you can see what she’s really like. But, there are some women who call themselves feminists, but are really egalitarian: they just don’t know the term.
Memymineown also suggests a subtle approach, and holds out hope that some of the younger feminist girls can be won back to the path of righteousness:
Bring Men’s Rights issues into the conversation subtly. I was talking with my family about Justin Beiber and brought up the paternity charge and no rape charges filed against the woman.
That led into a discussion about how women aren’t punished for rape.
Just do things like that.
But you shouldn’t exclude all feminists. I would say that the vast majority are just girls(I do use that word on purpose) who have been lied to. Once you show them the real facts they will probably come around.
ThePigman, by contrast, urges DoktorTeufel to go for the jugular:
Why do you need to be discrete about it? Just ask her. If she is a member of the cult she will start screaming about the patriarchy, then her head will explode.
It’s true. Pretty much every conversation involving feminists quickly devolves into screaming about patriarchy. Heck, a feminist friend and I once screamed about patriarchy for five hours straight. We probably could have gone longer, but the manager at Applebee’s, evidently not a feminist, threw us out. Sometimes I start screaming about patriarchy when no one else is around, just to keep in practice.
Conversations with feminists pretty much all go like the conversation in the video below, only instead of a cat you need to picture a feminist, and instead of the word “no,” the word “patriarchy.” You can see how annoying that might get, and not just to Hitler.
Posted on January 5, 2012, in antifeminism, antifeminst women, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 756 Comments.
So, NWOslave, if parental leave is socialism, how do we make it possible for men to not have such a raw deal when it comes to childcare?
Especially considering that you yourself admitted that the shit you said while trolling came a little too close to how you really feel for your own comfort.
NWO – First of all, even with your assumptions, your math is shit. $80 per person per month to finance Lady Expenses, and 100 million workers, would mean that maternity leave cost $8 billion a year. Not $276 billion. You’re double and triple counting.
But secondly, that money isn’t “lost.” It’s money the company spends to retain good workers who are temporarily unable to work, and it’s money that then flows into various baby-products industries. It’s not just set on fire because WOMEN got ahold of it.
… All right, I get it. Holly is right. I’m going to leave. For the record, I think overall, posting here was a net positive. I appreciate people still having patience after so much trolling, of course, I didn’t mean to suggest otherwise. And I guess you’re all right that I can’t expect to be received in the community after that. And I don’t want to return to a fakey ragey trol and piss away everyone’s goodwilll, so yeah, I’ll leave. I think this site does good work, and is funny, and mocking misogyny is important. I just have a hard time with it, because I have the aforementioned negative knee-jerk reaction to feminism, because of inner insecurites and wounds and all that, but that’s my own problem, and I’m working on it. I do like most people here, FYI, I mean I hung around for eight months. Thanks for tolerating me. Bye all.
“As I said, that was trolling.”
IT WAS? OH NEVER MIND!
Of course it was trolling, you fuckwit. So is what you’re doing now. Grow the fuck up, you pathetic slimeball. Nobody here has to explain to you why they’re being so MEEEEEN.
You were treated AMAZINGLY well here, all things considered. People reached out to you. People said you were young and had a chance to change. People gave you a chance. And another chance, and another. All in the face of your lulzy hate speech trollin’!
And if you aren’t fucking awed by that, you’re a… Well, you.
Oh fuck, my own math is bad. $80 per person per month times 100 million workers times twelve months is $240 billion per year. Still. Not $276.
And anyway these are numbers you just made up.
Good. Goodbye. Stick the still passive-agressive fond farewell.
Didn’t he just start out with 100 workers? /is also bad at math.
“And anyway these are numbers you just made up.”
That’s debunking. It’s what you do when feminists don’t have any proof, just words on paper. You make other words or numbers at them, and it debunks them.
@zhinxy
Yes, I answered. You never need ask again. Go read it and then you can shut up about it.
MRAL, are you trying to be the new B_n ?
Your “well, if I can’t see it/feel it/benefit from it, it obviously doesn’t exist!” attitude does seem reminiscent of his rather, uh, self-centered views, to put it mildly.
Do you understand that people still have lives and experiences, even though you play no role in them, and that they are still just as legit?
You are so self-centered, so incapable of empathizing with experiences that have nothing to do with you and your feelings, so fucking selfish that you can’t even see how understanding people here have been even after you were an asshole to for so long, yet you keep whining how everyone here acts like victims and are unfair to you.
I was very happy when you announced your heel face turn, and I had a lot of hope, but honestly, you showed that you are still an asshole, just a little less trollish.
Please, just go away.
Don’t come here anymore, at least for a while. I know you probably don’t give a fuck that you frustrate the people here after they have given you the benefit of the doubt so often, but you don’t seem to be very happy here either, so go somewhere else where you will hopefully find joy and won’t give people (and yourself) grief.
When you eliminate all factors that create the wage gap, there is no wage gap.
QED!
@TheNatFantastic
In the US that is the “Official” unemployment rate of the U3. The U6, or more accurate statistic includes Unemployed whose benefits have run out, unemployed who are no longer able to rejoin the work-force, and part-time employees who want to work full time but can’t find a full time job.
No woman has ever worked in a late-night restaurant or bar. No woman has ever worked in a hotel cleaning rooms. No woman has ever farmed. No woman has ever worked in a textile mill or factory, even when they take some milkslave’s job at Pepsi Co.
@ithiliana wave to me when you pass through Bellevue
I doubt you have. But I’ve pointed out before I’ve met an equal number of women and men who have blown knees and backs from restaurant work. I personally know a woman who has scars on 20% of her body plus the associated muscle/nerve damage from being electrocuted from working on an overhead line.
oh my, I should have refreshed the page D:
Bye, MRAL!
@MRAL: I don’t want to hear about how much better I have it at 8 bucks an hour, 25-30 hours a week, plus school. I’m sick of it. It makes me upset.
You have quite a pair of balls, there, bucko, given the way you call women bitches to demand that anybody stop doing anything that makes you upset (especially when, in fact, nobody is saying this–you’re imagining it, like you imagine just about everything about women’s lives).
Stop listening to those weird voices in your head.
And for holy fuck’s sake, realize that the thing we are talking about are not just about you.
I’m that close to starting a petition for David to give you the Brandon challenge to see if you can in fact write anything that isn’t IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIi
What do the rest of you think (Not sure when this will appear since am now at hotel in Seattle!).
FUCK my math sucks. Okay.
Final Corrected NWO Correction.
If there are 100 million workers, and out of every hundred:
4 of them are out on leave at 40K for six months
4 of them are temps covering for women at 30K (it’s six months, not a year)
and
1 of them is a human resources worker handling Lady Paperwork at 60K
Then the total cost for every 100 workers is (40K * 4) + (30K * 4) + 60K.
340K per hundred workers.
$3,400 per worker.
Or $34 billion for the whole economy. (Which, as I said, isn’t wasted because it’s money spent on worker retention and it’s getting spent on baby products and family necessities.)
But all this is moot because you just made those numbers up anyway.
@zhinxy
Yes, I answered. You never need ask again. Go read it and then you can shut up about it.
….
No, you really didn’t. You dodged the actual questions, though props to you for saying something about what you believe. My “response” to your non-response is there in the thread. Me and Ami are still waiting.
NWO:
I think you were asking for this: http://www.bls.gov/cps/cpsaat2.pdf
It’s the Employment status of the civilian noninstitutional population 16 years and over by sex, 1973 to date. They say that in 2010 63.7% of men were employed and 53.6% of women were employed. There were slightly more men in their population than women, and there might be other assumptions in the data which aren’t immediately apparent, but overall that doesn’t leave a lot of space for stay at home moms, maybe 1 woman in 10.
Not quite a gold rush, that.
http://manboobz.com/2012/01/03/manosphere-dudes-lets-set-up-fake-feminist-blogs-to-take-down-feminism/comment-page-16/#comment-107943
For clarity, here’s me (and Ami) after “you answered”. Our questions remain.
XD XD XD
That’s still kind of double-billing, too, because you can’t say the company shouldn’t be paying the temp or the woman. They still want the position filled.
So let’s consider only the temp’s pay as a real loss, and now we’re down to (30K * 4) + 60K for each company of 100, or $180K.
So now we’re “costing” the economy only $18 billion.
And that’s just using the numbers that NWO made up out of nowhere anyway. What kind of company is this where all the women are making 80K, seriously, and are they hiring?
And yet despite the huge amount of time I’ve spent here, everyone is perpetually hostile.
Not “despite.” “Because of.”
MRAL, try for one minute to put yourself in our shoes. Imagine there’s a woman you know who perpetually screams about how all men are entitled FUCK pricks, how all men get everything they want, how all men are shallow and stupid and mean and horrible and it just MAKES HER SO ANGRY SHE HAS TO SCREAM ABOUT IT FUCK FUCK FUCK.
You probably wouldn’t like her very much, right?
Now imagine that, after months of this, she says, “Actually, I was just trying to annoy you and get attention with a lot of that. I still think a lot of guys are entitled pricks, though! And that all men get everything they want! And that men should stop complaining because their complaints are bullshit!”
You probably still wouldn’t like her very much, right?
If you want to stay here and have people be nice to you, there is exactly one way you can do it: you can genuinely apologize for all the crap you’ve spouted, including in this thread, and then you can never spout any more. You can consistently be polite, reasonable, never call anyone bitches, never make stupid claims about how women have everything, and so forth. If you do that, and you keep it up for a good long time, then people might be inclined to be nice to you. (Even then, some people may decide that they haven’t yet forgiven you for months and months of bad behavior, and that’s absolutely their prerogative, in the same way it would be your prerogative to write off our hypothetical “ALPHA FUCK PRICKS” woman above.)
If you honestly think you can do that, then you can certainly try – but if you don’t, then staying here, continuing to rant about bitches, and expecting people to tolerate it is one hell of a losing plan.
. “What kind of company is this where all the women are making 80K, seriously, and are they hiring?”
….
They don’t hire, they wait for a man to apply who’s qualified, and then they go and find a random unqualified woman, and give her his job.
A parting note, to MRAL:
If you really thought this blog had value, you ought not to have spent so much time shitting all over it. You’ve burned your fucking bridges, dude. Live with it.
Your utter lack of self-awareness is stunning.
@Holly Pervocracy
the numbers I gave are pretty accurate, if you can do better I’d like to see it.
$80.00 per month is a reasonable estimate x 12 months = $960.00 per person.
If a woman gets 40K a year and take off 6 months that’s 20K x 4 women = 80K. Their wages are paid for by the other employees.
The temps will be hired at 3/4s the amount of the women who worked regularly = 60K
The human resource dept person needed to handle all the paperwork, temp hiring, insurances and such at 40K a year.
This is a transfer of wealth from people at the bottom to people at the top.
Please show me my error? Give me your cost anaysis?
Seriously, Holly. I want your cost analysis, incuding all costs. temps. wages paid to women on maternity leave. Personel who process information and hiring. Insurances and so forth. Tell me what you estimate the cost at, and who ultimately profits?
Dracula “If you really thought this blog had value, you ought not to have spent so much time shitting all over it. You’ve burned your fucking bridges, dude. Live with it.”
…
And the bridges that were built out to him, even though he was swiinging a torch and lighting his many, fecund farts, were things of real substance, marvels of engineering, testament to the real kindness of their oh, so hostile builders.
“This is a transfer of wealth from people at the bottom to people at the top.”
The people at the top being the pregnant women? :P
This is a transfer of wealth from people at the bottom to people at the top.
…
That’s the whole fucking state-corporate wage labor system, and getting us to think that small, human mercies our masters give us, like a little time off to do a LITTLE to bear and raise our babies, is REALLY what’s stealing our hard earned money and making things hard!
You really, truly are, the fucking World Divide And Conquer Champion, aren’t you?
… Answer me and AMI XD XD XD XD XD
zhinxy-
That’s the fuck of it, right there. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt when he said he wanted to change, and I know I’m not alone there. I was met with serious disappointment.
I’m not sure why the HR person is being counted as a sudden cost. Like, are HR people ONLY for parental leave?
And yet despite the huge amount of time I’ve spent here, everyone is perpetually hostile.
*collapses in helpless laughter, esp. at the followup about it just being trolling.*
OK, official petition to David:
David, please, please, please deal with MRAL the way you dealt with Brandon.
Who’s with me, comrades?
Honestly, I don’t give a shit what David does with MRAL at this point.
@zhinxy
How many times can I answer the same question? I’ve done it already. So if you ask the same question over and over again the answer is I’ve answered it already.
ithiliana – YES!
@zhinxy
How many times can I answer the same question? I’ve done it already. So if you ask the same question over and over again the answer is I’ve answered it already.”
EXCEPT. YOU. DIDN’T.
Click the link. We explain you didn’t. We’re still waiting.
MRAL
My husband spoke about you to me a couple of times before I took over this account. He felt sorry for you and is more generous then I am. I see nothing more then a pity party which imho woman in general are much more forgiving of then men.
Myself I see a whining little boy where it is high-time to act like a man. At some point for any young adult there comes a time to say you are responsible for your own choices. I think this is the point for you. Good luck
oops, clearly should have read through the whole thread first…..ah, well, c’est la vie!
@zhinxy
Personally, I’m starting to think you’re some idiotic shill.
They don’t get to feel self-righteous. They don’t get to feel like victims. They already have everything, they don’t need MORE.
Wait, are we still talking about your coworkers at Starbucks? What do they have? What is everything?
I’m out for a while. I’ll be back. When Ami gets here, she’ll be happy to hear your answer!
XD
XD XD XD XD XD XD XD
I think MRAL could easily pass the Brandon challenge. Even in full-troll mode, he could rant about tall women spitting on short, ugly, beta men without using I or me.
Looking up statistics is too much work for me to do for someone who won’t listen anyway. (And it’s not like you looked up anything.) But I will have some fun with your math.
We can ignore this. It’s double-billing. Paying the women costs the company what paying the women costs. Breaking it down by worker and also adding that makes no sense.
This is half what you said before, but agreed. However, the company has to pay the women anyway, unless it lays them off. This is not an “extra” cost, this is what they pay to have employees at all.
This is the first one that’s a genuine cost paid that would not be paid if the women weren’t pregnant. So that’s $60K/year total cost for a company of 100 people, or $600/year/worker.
For only 4 people a year on maternity leave? I doubt this is necessary–regular HR people can handle this just fine. But let’s pretend. (That’s all we’re doing anyway.) Now we’re up to $100K/year/company, or $1000/year/worker.
No, this is a transfer of wealth from employers to their employees. That’s just silly.
The total cost, using your made-up numbers, is now $1000/year/worker, or $100 billion for an economy of 100 million workers.
It’s made-up numbers anyway, but at least make them up consistently.
NWO – Explaining that would count as actually answering the question XD
What am I shilling for? Why am I shilling?
Good start, now go explain to me and Ami! XD XD XD XD
Be back, with Ami! Have fun! XD
@zhinxy
I’m afraid after going to the link you gave I can only conclude you’re an idiot. You’re not anything, an anachist or otherwise. You just prattle endlessly. You’ll be on the “I breeze thru your nonsense without even reading it” list.
Oh NWO, it’s so cute when you try to hurt people’s feelings.
NWOslave hasn’t read anything since 1813 #nwofacts
Wait, wrong site?
Even if we accept that pregnant ladies are costing the economy $100 billion a year, though, imagine the cost if we didn’t have maternity leave!
Now 4% of women (using NWO’s numbers) are just flat leaving the workforce every year. All their training costs, hiring costs, all their experience, just subtracted from the company. I’m not going to make up numbers (that’s NWO’s job), but that doesn’t strike me as free of cost.
Also, if we didn’t have maternity leave a lot more mothers would have to be supported by (dun dun DUNNN) welfare.
@Holly Pervocracy
Even by your own very low calculations 100 billion was taken from people. 100 billion was just lost. That’s exactly what the State does, takes peoples money.
Oh, shut up, NWOpoopsy. You have no power here. We know your weakness.
.
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. :D
@Holly Pervocracy
Even by you low calculations there’d be another 100 billion a year for that care. Take away welfare for about another 500 billion a year. See how quickly you’ve used up the average persons wealth?
NWO: Those “stats” you gave… utter nonsense.
Everyone is paying 80.00 a month. Everyone. Not gonna happen, not unless everyone is making significant money. The average wage in the US is about 41,000, but averages mislead.
Here is a chart with the Actual wage distribution
Note that the peak is well to the left of the median. The typical household in the US is pulling down somewhere between 20-30,000 per year.
Which invalidates all the pretty numbers you made up.
You are also assuming that the pooling of assets is actuarially limited to the company which has the employees, as opposed to being distrubuted among the entire working population.
If we assume that half the US population is a working adult, and the typical wage is 30,000, we have a semi-annual wage of 15,000. If we also assume that there is no loss of income to a woman who is taking maternity leave…
So we will assume, for the sake of argument that there are 4 million babies born in a year (in 2007 there were 4,317,119).
That 4,000,000 x 15,000 = 6,000,000,000, six billion a year which needs to be made up in lost wages. With an assumption of 150,000,000 workers, each of them needs to pay 400 dollars a year, or, 33.33 dollars per month.
That assumes a regressive, not a progressive, taxing structure on the plan. If the plan were progressive, then the typical worker might not need to pay more than 15 per month.
It didn’t go to the State. It went to private citizens, who will spend it on supporting themselves and their children.
I bet Gerber and Pampers don’t feel like that money is gone forever.
Holly, his math is still fucked–at a lot of companies, mine included, maternity leave is only 3 months.
NWO: Jesus would say the worker is worthy of his hire.
Jesus would say that no one should have any more than any other person.
Jesus would think the plan you are saying is impractical is too modest, it doesn’t do enough for the poor and the weak.
Have you given away your extra clothing yet?
Hellkell – Yeah, and I can’t imagine needing an extra HR person to cover just 4 maternity leaves a year.
Also the money to support mothers of young children has to come from somewhere, unless NWO is a Voluntary Human Extinction advocate. Whether by maternity leave, welfare, or child support, that money is coming out of the economy (er, not actually, but let’s pretend the mothers all stuff it under their mattresses) somehow. The question is how to do it efficiently and equitably, not how to avoid it.
How much of that isn’t pouring into the economy if 50% of the workforce is forced to stay home for 18 years?
Let’s see…
40,000 per person
50 women per 100 employees
2,000,000 per
Times that by 100 million people (not sure why, but this is NOW math so I can’t leave it out…)
That’s… uhm… I broke my calculator. Let me get a piece of paper…
$2,000 Trillian dollars per year!
Times 18 years… now you’re starting to talk REAL money!
No way in hell, Holly.
HR is only there to cover the company’s behind, NWO–it’s not there for just pregnant ladies.
Wait a second. NWO is against:
-Maternity leave
-Welfare
-Subsidized childcare
-Stay-at-home mothering
What does that leave? How in the hell should kids be raised? It seems like there’s no gaps left here.
I guess if a woman is independently wealthy enough to quit her job, support herself on savings while giving birth and caring for a newborn, and get a new job–which pays enough that she can afford full-time daycare–entirely on merit before the savings run out, then NWO says she can have a kid. Whee.
I suppose having a kid in any other situation is irresponsible. But wait, NWO is against abortion!
So I guess you can’t have sex unless you’re independently wealthy. But wait! NWO believes wearing clothing is consent to sex!
…So I guess you’re pretty much shit outta luck, women who aren’t independently wealthy.
If this:
is a response to this:
or to this:
Then that means, NWO, that you can, in fact, read posts that use emoticons! Guess you’ll have to come up with a new excuse not to answer Ami! :D
In 1750 Ben Franklin stood before the english parliment and they asked, “how the colonies managed to collect enough taxes to handle all the poor and build all the poor houses?”
Ben answer, “We have no poor houses in the colonies and if we built them, there would be no one to put in them. We have no poor, unemployed or vagabonds. No taxes or impositions are imposed upon the people”
“In the colonies we issue paper money called colonial script. There is no inflation or defaltion as long as the money supply is kept equal to the value of good and servicies to be produced and moved about the country for human consumption. There is no interest to pay.”
No taxes, no corporate (tax) childcare, money with no interest controlled by the amount of services, goods and transportation leads to no poor or unemployed. Anything else leads to poverty and unemployment.
NWO: You do know that Ben Franklin was lying, right? There were poor houses. There were unemployed. There were vagabonds. There were taxes.
And the Government was in debt.
NWO, without maternity leave, subsidized childcare, welfare, child support or at least stay-at-home mothering, where the hell should we put kids?
As described above, I don’t see how anyone but very wealthy women (and you probably believe none of them deserve their wealth) could ever have a child. This isn’t about becoming free of the welfare state. This is about “kids eat stuff.” Where’s that stuff going to come from?
“I’m not sure why the HR person is being counted as a sudden cost. Like, are HR people ONLY for parental leave?”
My favourite on that little math puzzle. I have a family member works HR is an extremely male dominated industry. The female population in this company is literally her and the other individual working HR; did I mention they are both over 50? That’s a lot of pregnancies those two near menopausal women are having to create two full-time HR positions. Of course who knows who is really working HR because obviously their off on maternity leave ALL THE TIME.
Yup that, makes sense.
Also love the 4 women on mat leave every year at a company of 100. The birthrate is the US is about 14/1000 population. In a company of 100 that would translate to an average of 1.4. So only 1, occasionally 2, would be born to parents working in this company each year.
“Holly, his math is still fucked–at a lot of companies, mine included, maternity leave is only 3 months.”
And some offer none. And in Canada (you know the crazy socialists) you are guaranteed a year off but may only get paid money you paid yourself into your employment insurance. There are so many damn variables, it’s impossible to create the math unless you know the exact details of the individual.
@NWO: Do you think good ole Ben took slavery into account?
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/wahl.slavery.us
Holly: don’t be silly, there is still burqa and Amish clothes!
http://worldhistoryforusall.sdsu.edu/eras/era7.php
NWO: You really think it was all that great back then, and that somehow we could return to it despite all the changes that have taken place since?
@Pecunium: Oh, heavens a MAN lied? Say it ain’t so!
@ithilianna: Well, clearly a woman forced him to lie…
Regular Sexist: Women shouldn’t get welfare or maternity leave or child support! They should stay home and raise the kids as god/evolution intended!
But NWO always goes one step beyond.
NWO-Sexist: Women shouldn’t get welfare or maternity leave or child support! Nor should they stay at home! Children should be raised by…. [REMEMBER TO FILL THIS IN BEFORE HITTING ENTER]
@Lauralot: Ah, one of those evil feminists sekritly running the “American revolution” no doubt!
Who just sent Ben oversea to buy her better bonbons and shiny things!