How to spot a feminist
Some feminists can be converted!
Over on Reddit, DoktorTeufel has a problem: he likes the ladies, but he doesn’t like the feminists. Unfortunately, some ladies are also feminists! And therein lies the danger. Naturally, he turns to the fellas in the Men’s Rights subreddit for help.
I’m just going to come out and say it: I will never knowingly enter into a romantic relationship with a feminist. I do have some female relatives and acquaintances who are feminists … and it’s not like they all wear signs that proclaim I’M A FEMINIST. (Some do.)
Aside from obvious telltales (feminist bumper stickers, etc.) or outright asking them “Are you a feminist?”, what are some discreet ways to ferret out a woman’s views on gender activism without creating an awkward situation? Feminism is a minefield topic, and I certainly wouldn’t broach the subject directly with a woman I’ve just started dating.
Naturally, this being the Men’s Rights subreddit, he received much helpful advice. Celda broke it down for him:
You don’t really care whether she identifies as a feminist or not – you care what her views are.
For instance, does she feel women have the right to force men into parental obligations against their will?
Does she feel women are oppressed in Western society?
Does she think that women make less money than men for the same work?
If yes to these questions or similar, then you probably want to avoid her.
Exactly. Always avoid those with a basic grasp on reality. They’re the worst!
Naive1000 suggested looking for more subtle clues.
Ask their thoughts on “benevolent sexism” if they know what your talking about you likely have a feminist. Just to make sure go into male privilege, it’s the feminists’ most popular talking point. Let her talk about it then you can see what she’s really like. But, there are some women who call themselves feminists, but are really egalitarian: they just don’t know the term.
Memymineown also suggests a subtle approach, and holds out hope that some of the younger feminist girls can be won back to the path of righteousness:
Bring Men’s Rights issues into the conversation subtly. I was talking with my family about Justin Beiber and brought up the paternity charge and no rape charges filed against the woman.
That led into a discussion about how women aren’t punished for rape.
Just do things like that.
But you shouldn’t exclude all feminists. I would say that the vast majority are just girls(I do use that word on purpose) who have been lied to. Once you show them the real facts they will probably come around.
ThePigman, by contrast, urges DoktorTeufel to go for the jugular:
Why do you need to be discrete about it? Just ask her. If she is a member of the cult she will start screaming about the patriarchy, then her head will explode.
It’s true. Pretty much every conversation involving feminists quickly devolves into screaming about patriarchy. Heck, a feminist friend and I once screamed about patriarchy for five hours straight. We probably could have gone longer, but the manager at Applebee’s, evidently not a feminist, threw us out. Sometimes I start screaming about patriarchy when no one else is around, just to keep in practice.
Conversations with feminists pretty much all go like the conversation in the video below, only instead of a cat you need to picture a feminist, and instead of the word “no,” the word “patriarchy.” You can see how annoying that might get, and not just to Hitler.
Posted on January 5, 2012, in antifeminism, antifeminst women, evil women, I'm totally being sarcastic, misogyny, MRA, patriarchy, reddit. Bookmark the permalink. 756 Comments.
I want to read the comic that pic came from. I need to know what erotic acts of erotica could melt my icy feminist armor.
One time my head exploded, and everyone around me got really embarrassed while I put it back together. But I was wearing my “I’m a Feminist” sign, so they weren’t confused about why it happened.
Those guys sound as good as Brandon at “smoking out the feminists, their sympathisers”.
Perhaps they could go into business… Brandon can run the IT, and they could do webinars.
MeMyMineOwn on how to spot a feminist? Brandon?
Basically, the good Doktor is saying that he is too lazy to get to know a woman before asking her out on a date.
I have an idea for Herr Doktor. He should organize a women’s rights march or some other event in his town. Get some good speakers that would attract feminists to see them. Then, during the time of the event, he could ask any woman out he pleased who was not at the event since he would know that all the feminists would be at that event plotting all the awful terrible things they want to do to him, his wallet, his freedom and the rest of the patriarchy… PATRIARCHY!
On a serious side not, I have also wondered aoubt the Beiber question. If she admitted to having sex with him in violation of age of consent laws, she just admitted to a crime is not getting arrested for it.
Too bad Brandon’s on moderation, he could share his tips and tricks for “smoking out” the feminists in his midst.
I’ve been friends with this one guy for a good year. When I outright said I was a feminist he was shocked — SHOCKED — that that was the case. Why was he shocked? Because I was a cool, fun person to be around who didn’t scream about the patriarchy or how men suck all the time.
I shit you not.
Anyway, what this guy is REALLY looking for is a woman who is easy to control. He knows that feminists are unlikely to put up with that kind of bullshit, but they’re far from the only women who wont.
He already did.
step 1: ask a bunch of question related to feminism
step 2: then ask her if she’s a feminist
step 3: gloat about it on a feminist forum while using the first person at least two times a sentence.
Magic!
This is exactly why I’m glad they replace your sense of empathy and natural femininity with badass cybernetic parts once you take the Oaths of Feminism. I can’t tell you how often I’ve had to regrow my head after this kind of conversation, and without my cold metal insides, it would be impossible!
I have an idea for Herr Doktor. He should organize a women’s rights march or some other event in his town. Get some good speakers that would attract feminists to see them. Then, during the time of the event, he could ask any woman out he pleased who was not at the event since he would know that all the feminists would be at that event plotting all the awful terrible things they want to do to him, his wallet, his freedom and the rest of the patriarchy… PATRIARCHY!
It would be dangerous to assemble that many warriors of the hive in one place. All it takes is one feminist screaming PATRIARCHY and it’d be curtains.
I think we need to iron out this wage gap thing. It’s basically a myth. It’s true that women on the whole earn less than men, but I hardly need to get into how fucking problematic that is. I am not making any more money than my women coworkers at Starbucks, or washing dishes at Dominos. This BullShit, dishonest debating, as well as and the BullShit implications, really grate on my last nerve. I make NO more than my female coworkers. Stuff it.
Oh Shora, I get this all the flippin’ time. What really gets me is they then refuse to believe that my feminism is pretty mainstream, because obviously they would know a lot more about what feminism looks like than… the feminist would?
There’s also “but you’re so feminine!” which is annoying because yes, I am, but that doesn’t make my feminism any “milder” or my opinions any more valid than someone much more butch.
I particularly like:
The only reason why a woman would abandon a date with a man who starts lecturing her about rape laws, is that she’s a hysterical man-hating feminist. I can think of no other explanation.
I can’t quite believe no one has posted this Jacky Fleming comic yet:
MRAL is back-sliding.
Classes must have started up again.
So the only jobs in America are barista and dishwasher? Got it.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Meanwhile in reality for my “entry level” pay scale for a utility company there is a potential $15,000 wage gap between the bottom and top of the pay scale.
For a job requireing an MBA +10 years experience the potential gap doubles to $34,000
Um, MRAL? The fact that men make more than women *on average* is the whole point of the wage gap thing.
Other components of the wage gap are more subtle. Even if there are just as many women as men doing the crappy jobs, are more men in management positions? Are there more women than men in jobs which are low-paying as a whole? Etc.
MRAL can backslide right on out of here, well, after he explains bullshit’s funky spelling in his whiny tirade.
You can’t look at one tree to claim to see the whole forest. It’s a bit more complicated than comparing the wages of two Dominos workers.
Ooh, I’ve been out of town, why is Brandon on Mod??
How am I backsliding? I just have a problem with the wage gap as presented, because as presented it’s a myth. Certainly in lower level jobs (you know, over 50% of the population) the pay is usually automated. If women work less, they will be paid less. If they don’t work, they will not be paid. Shocker. On the other hand, if they put in the average man’s hours, they will receive that recognition.
I think there is a discussion to be had re. WHY women choose lower-paying jobs, or choose to work less, or not at all, and that is an area where real sexism may lie. But by going for the sensationalist and false and easily refutable “WOMEN ALWAYS MAKE LESS FOR THE SAME WORK”, you’re just spinning your wheels. Everyone knows that’s shit.
I think we all know the damning study- among young childless people, women’s wages are about 97-98% of men’s. That’s all I need to hear, because that’s the age when women will, presumably, on the whole, be working as much as men. Same money for same effort. Roll widdit.
After derailing a thread for the umpteenth time with endless “me me me” posts, David put him on moderation and set him ‘The Brandon Challenge’, which required him to post exclusively about subjects other than himself before his posts would be allowed through.
Thanks to a mix-up (i.e. him spotting that he was on moderation but failing to spot The Brandon Challenge), his first post contained no fewer than 35 references to himself, for which he was widely mocked. So he essentially said “Screw you, Futrelle, I’m outta here”, and hasn’t been seen since.
Which is why Manboobz is full of drifting tumbleweed right now – surely you must have noticed that?
I do not know of anyone who has stated that women ALWAYS make less than men for the same work. There are some occupations where women make more than men for the same work. However, there are MORE occupations where men make more than women for the same work.
If one is to have an honest debate on wage gap issues, one has to acknowledge that some of the overall pay gap between men and women is because of past sexism. Women being told for years that their job was to be the homemaker while men climbed the corporate ladder causes a situation today where many men are at the top of that corporate ladder while women are just starting to climb because the past sexist society gave the men an unfair start.
I find it best to discuss starting wages and the gap between genders. And women are discriminated much more than men are.
For example, female doctors made $16,000 less than men to start. They do the same work and do not get the same pay. http://healthland.time.com/2011/02/04/gender-gap-in-doctors-starting-salaries-17000/ (Only in general surgery did women make more, every other field they made less)
Back in the day, I had a date and the guy mentioned how he couldn’t stand “feminazis”. There was no second date. It still wasn’t as bad as a date I had with a guy who was obsessed with Nostradamus. Anyway, those MRA’s are doing a huge favor to any feminists they weed out on dates. Obviously, they would be incompatible.
For a few months I worked at a classy restaurent. Women all started as hostesses, with a low hourly rate and a tiny percentage of the tip pool. Men started as bussers, with a slightly higher hourly rate and percentage of the tip pool. Men ALWAYS started with more money AND a higher position (which means they could make more money faster) than women.
Now, it’s not all like this, and the hospitality industry is pretty horrendously sexist as a whole, but you can’t go around spouting off that the wage gap is a myth without considering other experiences and facts.
Women are still pressured by society to sacrifice their careers for their children or risk being labeled “bad mothers.” Women are often forced to choose between a high-paying career and a family while men are not, so yea, that’s where the wage gap starts.
The idea that women just choose to stay home because it’s easier so they can laze about and eat bonbons is a myth. Child rearing is a lot of fuckin work and you don’t get paid for it at all. Less money, more effort. Roll widdit.
MRAL: Sit down, breathe deeply, and think a moment.
First, what do you mean about the “myth”?
if you’re talking about the general media and general conversation between people, sure there will be ovesimplifications and errors made.
BUT if you’re talking about statistical studies (which do in fact compare men and women working in the same job), then it’s not a myth, and you’re starting to pull out an NWO: i.e. the miniscule amount of experience you have at shitty service jobs is not in fact reflective of overall trends, and as Cynickal said above, even there who goes into management, etc. is gendered.
There was a huge class action suit against Wal-mart about inequality of treatment based on gender–it shows how complicated this sort of thing is to prove (and even then the suit was thrown out on what I consider fucking flimsy rationales).
Here is a site with some actual, you know, statistics:
http://www.pay-equity.org/
You’re what, 20 years old? You have no experience in working at anything but shitty part-time service jobs (where, yes, I’m prepared to believe men and women, blacks and whites, are generally paid the same crap wage at the lowest levels), but do you think that really qualifies you to say ANYTHING more useful than the crap that often circulates in the media.
I’ve never worked a lifeguard job: would you believe anything I have to say about it?
Probably not, so why do you think you get to bloviate about crap you know nothing about and get considered to be anything but a troll AGAIN?
Shut up, read some stuff, consider that the issue is complicated, and that in fact it is not ALL ABOUT YOU.
@ Viscaria;
Yea, I’ve never had anyone tell me to my face that they were surprised because I’m so feminine but…. Hell, I bellydance. It was heavily implied.
There’s this weird notion that feminists can’t be pretty. I don’t know where it came from, but it needs to fuckin stop.
@ TheNatFantastic:
That comic is hilarious. Thank you for bringing it into my life.
Not even reading MRAL’s posts right now. Can’t stand to watch the backslide. Damn it, kid, you were doing so well! Why’d you have to let me down so bad?
As for the OP, this is what comes of devoting your life to tricking or coercing women into fucking you. It would be easy to – for example – put “No Feminists” on your dating site profile, and I assure you, you would get no feminists. You could even add a bit of bait for anti-feminist women: “No feminists, please, I’m looking for a lady”. They eat that shit up.
But no, as much as they don’t want to deal with any feminists, they also don’t want to do anything that pre-emptively limits the number of pussy dispensers they come in contact with.
@ Shora
No problem, she’s one of my favourites. Quite popular in the UK in (I think) the 80s? She had a couple of books of feminist/left political cartoons out. She still does them in a couple of papers. Well worth a Google image search :)
MRAL: There’s a big difference between studenty-type jobs and other jobs. I’m your age, and have worked crappy service/retail jobs, and I’m pretty certain I got paid no less than my male counterparts. Because in those kinds of jobs, everyone is paid minimum wage, and since minimum wage is not different for men or women (thank fuck), it’d be illegal to pay women any less than men in that case.
But minimum-wage jobs are not the only jobs out there. And as Shora says, even within jobs like that, women and men are often given different positions which starts them out on different levels of pay. Please don’t let your limited experience in student jobs convince you that there is no possible imbalance elsewhere. As ithiliana said, it makes you sound like NWO.
Leave a pair of gardening shears by the bed. -Pretend- to go to sleep, but watch what she does through slitted eyelids. Watch VERY CAREFULLY.
MRAL
Walmart would be a prime example. But besides that let me explain for a moment how real life works. You hang out with Bob the boss after work, you have drinks, play a couple of rounds, next thing you know your his bud and guess what? promotion.
My husband is dealing with a subset of his company where this has become rampant. It’s not a pretty situation The people who are actually doing the work, male and female have become marginalized from the cool kids. His is a small enough company where they can slash and burn.
I can’t afford that with mine being mostly non-profit in the last few years
@Shora
It becomes this trap where I want to get all defensive and say “there are lots of pretty feminists!” when really, it doesn’t matter. Whether one is conventionally attractive or not has no bearing on the worth of their ideas.
I side with Mral, you are correct when controlling for other factors others than gender the wage gap is reduce or even reversed. Differences between the pay of the sexes is purely down to the choices the sexes make. Saying there is sexism or discrimination because averagely women work less hours and take more time out of their career is foolish and removes the individual agency of women.
More stats from the wall street journal http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704415104576250672504707048.html?mod=WSJ_hp_mostpop_read
‘The unemployment rate is consistently higher among men than among women. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reports that 9.3% of men over the age of 16 are currently out of work. The figure for women is 8.3%’
‘Men have been hit harder by this recession because they tend to work in fields like construction, manufacturing and trucking, which are disproportionately affected by bad economic conditions’ Men cluster in more heavy and dangerous work.
‘Women cluster in more insulated occupations, such as teaching, health care and service industries. ‘ Women cluster is less dangerous work.
‘Yet if you can accept that the job choices of men and women lead to different unemployment rates, then you shouldn’t be surprised by other differences—like differences in average pay. ‘
‘Thus the mantra that women make only 77% of what men earn for equal work. But even a cursory review of the data proves this assumption false’
‘hile feminists suggest that women are coerced into lower-paying job sectors, most women know that something else is often at work. Women gravitate toward jobs with fewer risks, more comfortable conditions, regular hours, more personal fulfillment and greater flexibility’
‘Recent studies have shown that the wage gap shrinks—or even reverses—when relevant factors are taken into account and comparisons are made between men and women in similar circumstances. In a 2010 study of single, childless urban workers between the ages of 22 and 30, the research firm Reach Advisors found that women earned an average of 8% more than their male counterparts. Given that women are outpacing men in educational attainment, and that our economy is increasingly geared toward knowledge-based jobs, it makes sense that women’s earnings are going up compared to men’s.’
So when you control for other factors such as age and hours worked women earn 8% more than men between the ages of 22 and 30, then more women start falling out of their careers due to child birth and other factors. Mral is right, looking at the average picture is a poor way to interpret the data.
As I’ve said, I agree that there are social and cultural pressures that are sexist and that . But that’s not the same as saying that the nefarious employers are handing women and men different wages, hour by hour, in some sinister plot.
You don’t HAVE to have a baby. If women take maternity leave, I’m sorry, they will be paid less as a result… because they are, you know, not working. Now, I’m willing to entirely accept the idea that women are pressured into this, and that sucks and it’s an issue that should be addressed… but it’s a different issue than this Dark Plot some feminists like to talk about. I read Jessica Valenti’s Full Frontal Feminism and didn’t find it too objectionable, but the line “are you angry you’ll get paid less than guys for the same job” (paraphrased) really pissed me off. Are you kidding? Gross oversimplification, and more importantly, she’s talking to fucking 15-25 year olds in that book. They’re working the same shitty jobs as I am for the same shitty wages. The only difference is now they get to feel all self-righteous about it.
v I’m sorry, they will be paid less as a result… because they are, you know, not working.
Right. Because looking after a baby is a piece of cake. And society doesn’t need to replace people who die, so there’s no value in it anyway.
So what do you propose? The state pay mothers and fathers for… taking care of their babies? There’s no surprise.
Good number of my friends from about 20-22 have graduated from their respective programs and are working as electricians, engineers, graphic designers. Those who never went on to post-secondary have received or been passed over for raises or promotions in their fields. I’m still in school, but work office jobs every summer, for which pay is much more variable than it would be for a retail service position.
The troll/non troll ratio in this thread is unappealing.
Dude… no one here is saying that. o.o
This whole “the wage gap isn’t real!” is also particularily hilarious in that my mom was actually involved in a lawsuit against a company that was paying her less than the guy she was training. Just because it happens less now doesn’t mean it never happens!
I see Ullere and MRAL have banded together to wank about the wage gap.
Why don’t you two take it elsewhere? We’ve heard this shit before, call it deja doodoo if you like.
Who broke the board?
I see Hellkell and the other echo back up singles have joined together to wank over the wage gap myth.
Why don’t you occassionally consider the possibility that you are wrong, that the various studies, economics and people who are smarter and better informed and have no vested interest are right? There is no wage gap when controlling for other factors, the average wage gap exists because of choices people make. Women between the ages of 22-30 earn 8% more than men, female Ceo’s earn substantially more than male ceo’s. There is no wage gap.
echo back up singers.
Look, you’ve heard it before because it’s very transparent, and often utilized for dishonest debating. I don’t want to hear about how much better I have it at 8 bucks an hour, 25-30 hours a week, plus school. I’m sick of it. It makes me upset.
Wow, even the non-comment stuff is all italicized. Plus, on my phone, the gravitar of whoever last commented shows up to the right of the post title. Man boobz dislikes what we have to say and is protesting!
@Ullere
I don’t know how it works in America, but are the 8.3% and 9.3% unemployment rates based on ‘people of working age who have no job at all’ (because I don’t know how you’d get the data for that) or ‘people of working age who are claiming unemployment benefits’?
The second way is how the figures for unemployment are reached in the UK and they don’t account for people who aren’t in work but also aren’t claiming unemployment benefit (i.e. housewife – on no benefits, or carer for a family member – on different benefits), where obviously due to social pressures this is usually (but by no means exclusively) women.
So it could be the case that although there are fewer women claiming unemployment benefit, there are also fewer women in the workforce.
Also, I think it is usually more helpful to provide a breakdown of who is living under the ‘poverty line’ (66% of average income in the UK), rather than who is on what benefit, as they do vary widely (and certainly in the UK people are moved to different ‘classes’ of benefit to suit the current government’s agenda – i.e. Labour may put people on benefits relating to disability to artificially reduce the number of people claiming unemployment benefit in order to claim they have cut unemployment or the Tories will move people off disability benefits in order to justify cutting benefits because the people on them are ‘scroungers’ who are ‘fit for work’).
Not now, of course, now I only have about 20 hours a week, with no school. It’s a lot of fun.
@lj4adotcomdan
First off, the study you gave is words on a paper and gives no empirical data. No number, no proof of any kind. It doesn’t even claim to have any data other than words.
The article states “What is surprising is that even when we account for specialty and hours and other factors, we see this growing unexplained gap in starting salary. The same gap exists for women in primary care as it does in specialty fields.”
The article doesn’t state various factors such as colleges graduated from for starting wage. Person “A” graduates from Havard at the top of the class, Person “B” graduates from no-name school at the bottom of the class. Who get the higher starting wage?
—————–
And also “Researchers theorized that women are choosing quality-of-life benefits like flexible schedules and not being on call during certain hours, rather than higher pay, when negotiating starting salary.”
That “is” the reason for the gap. The discrepancy in pay is due to personal choices. If person “A” is willing to work on call and all hours, while person “B” isn’t, person “A” will get $8.50 more per hour. So even if person “A” and person “B” work the same hours on a particular week person “A” will get paid more due to person “A” will to work deadman shift as opposed to dayshift. Right off the bat, most companies pay 10% more for working deadman shift.
—————–
The article also states “women were still making less than their male counterparts in every field except general surgery, in which women earned an average of $11,000 more per year than men.”
Why is this not a problem? When women make more is it due to hard work, sacrifice and perserverance? When men make more is it due to sexism?
—————-
@Shora
“Women are still pressured by society to sacrifice their careers for their children or risk being labeled “bad mothers.” Women are often forced to choose between a high-paying career and a family while men are not, so yea, that’s where the wage gap starts.”
Homelife>>>>Work, by about a million to one. Homelife is rewarding and work sucks. Kids rock, they are fun as hell, they do stupid shit that makes you laugh your ass off. Are you telling me you can possibly compare holding a child, looking at the love in their eyes, laughing and playing with them as a punishment compared to a shit job?
No women quit “high paying” jobs unless they are married to a “high paid” husband or have enough wealth where it doesn’t matter. A woman making a 100K a year does not quit her job if her husband makes 20K a year. That never happens. Ever. A high paid woman is never forced to quit a job to live in poverty with a low paid man. Never.
—————
Work is something you “have” to do in order to survive. Homelife is the rewarding part of life. In the world of “real” people if someone won a million dollars they would enjoy their homelife to the fullest. They might work as a hobby, but they wouldn’t “have” to. The most asinine part of feminism is portraying homelife as a punishment when it is the only rewarding part of life.
The shitty part of life for most of us is “having” to work. The rewading part of life is being home. It might be work in a sense of duties and chores that need to be done, but the rewards are infinite. The only “reward” of outside work for most of us is simple suvival. Living the “good life” is being at home.
Oh, snap, you told me.
Only you didn’t. Yes, the WSJ has no bias whatsoever. Uh-huh. And just how many female CEOs are there? Not enough to matter overall.
Can it, Ullere, you’re dull and pointless.
If women can earn the same as men (sometimes) just by making a sacrifice that men don’t have to make–that’s not fair.
It’s also something that often gets hung over our heads even when we’re not planning to have kids–if you’re a woman between 25 and 35 or so (and especially if the interviewer knows you’re married) interviewers tend to be skittish about “she could maternity out of here at any time!” whether it’s true or not. They aren’t allowed to ask directly “so, gonna be baking any buns in the ol’ oven?” but they are allowed to say things like “we expect our employees to make our projects their first priority, AHEM.”
It’s not that you can’t get hired, but your odds of getting hired in a really intense situation–like a small startup where everyone’s working extra hours–are a lot lower. Even if you have no intention of actually getting pregnant! Likewise, women with kids are under suspicion of being about to run home every time the kid’s sick, whether they are or not.
“Women can get paid like men so long as they live like men” not only isn’t good enough, it isn’t even true.
Words are not data now! Can this go in the Book of Learnin’?
@Mral: nobody is saying there is some evil plot except you. We arr saying historical and contemporary systematic patterns of discrimination have resulted in statistical inequities based on sex and race.
And as somebody working ft at an academic job with s partner ditto i can say having a ft stayathome person working at what we might call suoport would make a difference
And while i am childfree, i get fucking tired of dickbiscuits kike you who seem to think no man has any need to be involved with caring for children and that it’s all eomen’s work except it’ s not real work.
Trolling dude.
Said by a man who only thinks of parenting in terms of Kodak type moments. I would lose my mind if I were home with kids all day, and I give a lot of credit to those who chose to do it.
From the article:
“Men, by contrast, often take on jobs that involve physical labor, outdoor work, overnight shifts and dangerous conditions (which is also why men suffer the overwhelming majority of injuries and deaths at the workplace). They put up with these unpleasant factors so that they can earn more. ”
Oh right, women hate physical labor and overnight shifts. That explains why all the nurses at the hospital are men.
Also how about the women who “put up with unpleasant factors” of their own and still earn less?
The study in Ullere’s article is interesting in that it only reaches conclusions for childless women and men in their mid- to late 20s. As if men with children don’t outearn their childless counterparts by 10-15% (and working women with children of course earn a substantial amount less than childless women). As if women don’t face age discrimination in their jobs more than men do. As if sex discrimination against rural women doesn’t matter. It’s certainly nice to see that women’s salaries are catching up, but I actually don’t think that the study concludes that women’s salaries have caught up.
And I don’t think, Mr. Al, that the wage gap is based on any nefarious or sinister plot — and I’ve never heard anyone describe it as such. I think the reasons for it are fairly complicated and varied, just as it’s always presented. It’s kind of weird that your main argument against the wage gap is that it exists but it doesn’t exist in the way that the imaginary feminists inside your head are telling you it does.
@ Nat I’m actually from the UK, and I looked out some poverty line information regarding the sexes.
http://www.poverty.org.uk/07/index.shtml
Women are a little bit, just a little bit, more likely to live in poverty. However the reasons for this are ironically that women live longer so are pensioners for longer, retire earlier so are pensioners etc, women get the majority of custody of children and make up most lone parent families and therefore are more vulnerable to poverty. Now I do not want pensioner or single parent poverty but neither is discrimination against women as men are equally as vulnerable when they are in these groups, they simply make up less of the groups due to dying earlier and not getting custody as often.
‘Women are a bit – but only a bit – more likely to live in low-income households than men: 21% compared with 19%. Excluding couples, single women are still a bit – but only a bit – more likely to live in low-income households than single men: 28% compared with 25%.
One reason for the gender gap is that is that both single female pensioners and female lone parents are both more likely to be in low-income households than their male equivalents. One reason why the gap is so small is that there is no such difference for working-age singles without children.
A second reason for the gender gap is that most lone parents – a group at high risk of being in low income – are women (most pensioners are also women but because pensioners have a similar risk of being in low income as working-age adults, this is not a reason for the gender gap). A second reason why the gap is so small is that most people live in couples.’
The thing I never get about “stay-at-home-mom is the cushiest job ever!” arguments–besides everything–is why don’t more women open home daycares?
A home daycare keeps you in your home, gives you real money that no one can take away on a whim (unlike “a husband keeping you around is basically money”), and the kids go home at night! And since taking care of children is never difficult or unpleasant work, it’s FREE MONEY! NO WORK!
When you understand why “home daycare owner” isn’t the world’s most popular career choice for women–and why it’s a career choice you’d never consider for yourself–you will understand much.
Sorry! I think I may have broken the board with an open tag. There is, of course, no way for me to fix it that i can see.
I don’t want to hear about how much better I have it at 8 bucks an hour, 25-30 hours a week, plus school. I’m sick of it. It makes me upset.
You know, for all your “I have a high IQ” nonsense, you’re a complete idiot. Unless some institute actually releases a study naming you personally, cut the crap. Studies are about trends, not individuals.
@Ullere
Also there’s the fact that women are less likely to build up the minimum contributions for pensions because of taking a career break.
I dislike talking about things in terms of ‘women getting custody’ when it remains a fact that the vast majority of divorces and breakups (90-95%) are uncontested and so rely on the parents working it out between themselves, not courts.
Appreciate you doing the research though.
Garsh, I know the favorite part of my day is coming home to do the laundry and the dishes, vacuum the house, change the sheets, clean the bathroom and kitchen, and dust and sanitize everything. And on the weekends, I CRY if I can’t get in my several hours of yardwork and gardening and miscellaneous homecare. Imagine how much more fun it would be if I had a tot to look after and play chauffeur to!
For what it’s worth, I think stay-at-home parenting is awesome, valuable, and hard-ass work. My hat’s off to all who parent in any capacity. But it’s absolute bullshit to say that taking care of one’s home and children 24 hours a day is on a day-to-day basis more rewarding and peaceful than any other job. Of course, a milk bottle machine repairman with no children should know.
Just have to say i am a bainbridge island ferry terminal reading and posting from my droid. I am going to MLA conference
Are we going to have to write a “things that aren’t about MRAL” list for you? Nobody has debated that you, personally, are probably making the same amount of money as your female co-workers in the same position. In fact, a few people have explicitly supported that idea.
Look, the job I was working a couple of years ago when I was 20 was very likely a lot better-paying than the job you’re working now, plus better hours, plus a less stressful work environment. I got my foot in the door for that kind of position a couple years earlier, because of SES privilege that I had that I would suspect you don’t (k-k-k-kyriarchy), and I’ve managed to parlay that into a series of other positions. But this isn’t about MRAL and Viscaria, this is about men and women in general.
On that note, if you’re a 2nd or 3rd year engineering student I heartily recommend you start looking for engineering summer student positions–I think in the states they usually call them internships? At any rate, if the system is the same as it is here you’ll make a lot more money and you’ll gain really valuable experience for when you graduate and start looking for full-time employment.
Wow, MRAL, you’re making $8.00 an hour? I had to have two bachelor’s degrees summa cum laude before I could get someone to pay me that much.
I mean, if we’re going to pretend “anecdote” is synonymous with “data”….
Ullere:
Why don’t you take your own advice?
Primus: Seriously. I have yet to see you admit to the possibility of personal error/misinterpretation of the facts?
Secundus: What have you by by way of substantiation that your stats are from sources without a vested interest? Because the WSJ had a vested interest. The editorial position of that paper is that anything which makes it possible for an employer to reduce any wage is a good thing.
Tertius: The use of ad hominem (saying that hellkell, et alia, aren’t possessed of facts, or argument, nor even actual opinions, but merely engaging in echo chamber responses because “some feminist has been challenged), is doing you no good turn.
From past observation, I have little faith in your good faith, and this little round of tripping through the daisies of MRM talking point 362-G, sub-paragraph (b) isn’t improving my opinion, given the lack of irony in the comments quoted above.
NWO, Thou Earnest Christian… how many coats have you got? More than one?
I thought so.
Ullere: I agree with you that average pay is not good to look at. That is why I was using the average starting salary.
Having spent a good chunk of time at home due to unemployment, I’d say I was closer to pulling out my hair from boredom than a state of domestic bliss.
Why is it so hard for NWOslave to grasp that some people don’t want children? They’re also capable of peeing on you, screaming for no reason, and coloring on your walls. I even have a vivid memory of putting my mom’s new watch in a basin of water just to see what would happen as a child–and I was considered well-behaved on average!
‘Oh right, women hate physical labor and overnight shifts. That explains why all the nurses at the hospital are men.
Also how about the women who “put up with unpleasant factors” of their own and still earn less?’
In general men work harder and more dangerous jobs, the wage gap is based on average earnings not a small group of hard working individuals. Women who work harder mroe dangerous jobs get paid more than men and women who do not.
‘The study in Ullere’s article is interesting in that it only reaches conclusions for childless women and men in their mid- to late 20s. As if men with children don’t outearn their childless counterparts by 10-15% (and working women with children of course earn a substantial amount less than childless women). As if women don’t face age discrimination in their jobs more than men do. As if sex discrimination against rural women doesn’t matter.’
Men with children do not get paid more than men without children, certainly not 10-15% more.
The study in Ullere’s article is interesting in that it only reaches conclusions for childless women and men in their mid- to late 20s. As if men with children don’t outearn their childless counterparts by 10-15% (and working women with children of course earn a substantial amount less than childless women). As if women don’t face age discrimination in their jobs more than men do. As if sex discrimination against rural women doesn’t matter.
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d0435.pdf
a report in 2003, which is a little dated but I assume you don’t believe the wage gap is a new thing. men with children earn 2.5% more than childless men, however this doesn’t control for the age difference between men with and without children, as older men are more likely to have children and also earn more.
Your claims of age discrimination and rural sexism do not matter, as I have stated when controlling for other factors other than gender the wage gap disappears or reverses. So evidently the age and sex discrimination against women has not created a wage gap.
Sure, many of it’s here are actually parents, but NWO has babysat his nieces and nephews–possibly more than once. Obviously, we must defer to his superior experience and expertise in the area of child rearing.