Sady Doyle on “Fighting Sexual Assault, One Tweet at a Time”
Upvoted!
Sady Doyle of Tiger Beatdown fame has a great piece up at In These Times on the ways in which the Internet has helped to highlight virulent and violent misogyny — and inspire effective feminist pushback. It’s actually kind of … inspiring? (That’s a word I don’t use often!) Here’s the opening:
When a history of 21st-century feminist activism is someday written, 2011 may be labeled Year Rape Broke. Sexual assault and harassment have, of course, always been key feminist concerns. But in 2011, sexual violence, exploitation, or intimidation were part of nearly every major story that fell under the heading of “women’s issues”–and the activism against it has been particularly widespread, focused and effective.
As we enter this renaissance of sexual assault awareness, it’s worth considering the ways in which new media has informed it–and, indeed, perhaps even made it possible. …
You can read the rest on the In These Times website.
Full disclosure: I worked at ITT for a couple of years in the 90s (yes, I’m old), and Sady says some nice things about Man Boobz in the piece.
Posted on December 22, 2011, in actual activism, feminism, inspiring, misogyny, MRA, rape, rapey, sex, sexual harassment, sluts. Bookmark the permalink. 400 Comments.
I really wish this were the case. But it seems like the (somewhat) anonymous cover of the Internet is also the perfect method for people to spout all sorts of racist and misogynist bullshit that they wouldn’t dare utter in public. There are only one or two websites (this beinf one of them) whose comment pages I can read enjoyably without flying into rage.
People might be more aware of these issues, but it seems to make everyone else just push back harder. I have never heard more “get back in the kitchen” jokes in any other year before this. Then everyone bitches when girls don’t like it because they’re being ~*sensitive*~ or whatever.
Then other girls make the same jokes without a trace of irony and we get set back a few days in the feminist movement with each one.
Common Nonsense – It definitely seems like the backlash has been lashier lately.
I feel the worst about girls who are all “you don’t have to be PC around me, I’m cool, I’ve got a sense of humor,” because I’ve been there and I suspect a lot of us have. It’s the path of least resistance, the path of immediate approval and acceptance as “one of the good ones,” and sometimes you don’t feel like you can afford to alienate people.
At the same time, it just makes things even harder for those of us humorless shrews who aren’t cool with it.
My only hope that the backlash is the fight you part of “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”
Seriously? My friend (and then-neighbor) interned there for a couple of years in the ’90s. Small world.
(I’m totally not old, though!)
I think it will be some time before rape isn’t prevalent in the culture, but this may be the tipping point. If there is a steady diminuition, then yes, this is probably the year it broke.
But it will take time to before we know.
I’m actually not that worried about the backlash in the grand scheme of things. Of course there is going to be backlash when the cultural treatment of rape and female sexuality is discussed in a big way. It’s going to be a messy fight and the opposition is going to be loud. I don’t know that there is any way to change that. I don’t know that there’s any way to change the conversation about consent that isn’t loud, and messy, and full of controversy.
But I think that’s okay. Just the act of having the conversation is a step forward – a step beyond “it’s not a problem, this is just the way it is, there’s nothing to talk about.”
I have a friend who sometimes seems to miss the point of not liking sexist jokes. Ironically is one thing, but I think she does it in part because she’s not a big fan of “excessive PCness” or whatever I should call it. That, and usually these ironic jokes turn around and start lacking irony again.
At least it’s an issue, I guess, instead of nothing at all, like people mentioned. I just wish it would hurry up and be solved. I’m not patient. >:I
“Then other girls make the same jokes without a trace of irony and we get set back a few days in the feminist movement with each one.”
I don’t know, I consider feminism is no more mandatory on account of being a woman than being a man. True I subscribe to the general notion of feminism pretty hard, but I’d like to think of it an an equal opportunity philosophy not a men VS women dynamic.
I think I see where you’re coming from, that people with so much to lose shoot themselves in the foot, but I’m pretty sure male identifying people win with feminism too.
a note on “excessive PC-ness.” I can’t even begin to explain how much that phrase pisses me off, since it implies that you can’t be humorous, or crasss, or playful without curbstomping marginalized populations. That is, SO not true. It is totally possible to be hilarious and thought provoking without buying into oppression.
MRA’s hypocrisy is highlighted when they promote false rape society propaganda while at the same time “promote and direct the rape and violence against women and children”. How can you cry that men get falsely accused of rape and in the same breath tell guys to go forward and rape women and children. The mra’s “false rape society” doth protest too much because they want to cover up their crimes. Folks just don’t take these ghetto hoodlum rats with an ounce of respect. And for good reason pal.
“a note on “excessive PC-ness.” I can’t even begin to explain how much that phrase pisses me off, since it implies that you can’t be humorous, or crasss, or playful without curbstomping marginalized populations. That is, SO not true. It is totally possible to be hilarious and thought provoking without buying into oppression.”
There was a time when I was very intentionally one of those “cool, un-PC” girls. Then I grew up and realized that my own personal experiences were not in fact the definitive narratives of everybody, and that maybe hearing a “non-PC joke” targeting a marginalized group as a member of that group was, in fact, a drastically different experience than it was for me.
So, yeah. The whole way the discussion on “PC-ness” is usually framed really bothers me. I don’t believe the government generally should play a role in policing language*, but I believe very strongly in calling out people for being assholes.
*complicated issue that I do not have the energy to get into the nuances of now.
Feminism is about evening the leveling field so that women get the same freedoms. Y’all still earn less than men and with finances being everyone’s number one ticket to happiness y’all best keep up the fight till the good ole boys learn how to share the wealth. Look, I’ll tell you this, us men we have a lot of competition now. A lot of competition ever since you ladies started leaving the kitchen to make room for intellectual advancement. You’re gonna run across some dudes who don’t want the female competition for jobs and schooling. These scared boys never learned how to share on the playground. They want you to stay uneducated and jobless yet they bitch and moan that they have to pay for dinner dates. I’m glad you women are leading productive lives in medicine, research, technology, art, etc.. Good for ya’ll. These mra dudes who never leave the computer because they ain’t got no social lives are gonna be in for a big surprise when they finally step away from their computer screen to look at how much the world changed around them. I just went to a specialist today for my colonoscopy. Guess what. My doctor was a woman. A happy woman. Shhh, don’t let the mra dudes know because that’ll send the poor boys over the edge. Jealousy is ugly.
the first comment on that article is from an MRA talking about how not misogynist the MRM and general boohooing about how men have no rights. Funny how they ALWAYS seem to come out on articles about speaking out against sexual harassment and other BS that women generally have to deal with.
Yea. We have a long way to go.
@LapLace: point totally well taken. But even more basic than that, it is possible to be gut wrenchingly “un PC” while still standing up for marginalized populations (see: everything Margaret Cho has ever done). I’m offended as a funny person as well as a person belonging to some historically marginalized groups.
M Dubz – oh, totally. I wasn’t disagreeing with you so much as throwing my perspective into the mix.
Yay for general agreement that PC is generally awesome!
I used to be a typical Privileged White Male (well, I actually am still all three of those things, but that’s besides the point) who would whine about how things were too politically correct, until I wisely realized that complaining about PC is just something people do when they feel their privileges being threatened. I’ve hardly ever someone who actually belongs in some way to an oppressed group say, “Things are too politically correct!”
There’s a weird tendency to think that being PC is bad or makes you a sheep or . . . something. Taking away free speech, maybe. I’unno, I just think that making a half-assed effort to not offend everybody shouldn’t be that difficult.
Political Correctness has several meanings, in my opinion. There is a base level whereby PC objects to crude racist or otherwise bigoted language. For example, I would never use the term “manflu” because, whilst I view it as essentially harmless, it isn’t consistent. And I wouldn’t call a woman a slut – there’s no male equivalent. To me, that’s being fair; not PC.
What MRAs mean by PC is “Cultural Marxism”. They demonstrate a level of incredible hypocrisy and stupidity in this that it’s really surprising that David, or others, haven’t written about it.
MRAs hold that we live in a society dominated by “Cultural Marxism”. Society, according to them, has decreed white, hetero males as a cultural equivalent to the owners of production and all others as the cultural equivalent to the workers/proles. Because of this, laws have been enacted and a war (a “cultural Marxist” war) is being waged on men. To accept this MRA theory you would have to accept that every US Govt. of the last 50 years contained “Cultural Marxists” Sec. of States and that they held sway at all levels of Govt.
So far, so deluded. But here is the borderline insane punch line to the whole crazy thought process…
MRAs flip this right on its head, state loudly and proudly that males are actually the oppressed and that women are the privileged classes oppressing them. So what they are doing is essentially using the methodology they accuse others of using but claim they aren’t. So we get to a lunatic position where MRAs say feminists are “Cultural Marxists” and use “Cultural Marxist” doctrines (reversed) to prove this.
It’s absurd. Basically, MRAs are inventing things that they would like feminists to believe, the repeating it back to them but replacing female with male.
They are cultural, intellectual and ethical untermenschen..
I’m not sure they actually have a clue what ‘political correctness’ is/was – how the concept started, what it was in response to, etc. When they whine about ‘PC gone mad’ you can usually read it as ‘baww people get annoyed when I insult them, I’m so oppressed’
I first started noticing this among BNP supporters (UK’s white supremacists pretending to be a nice little working-class party who are just concerned about excessive immigration, honest) but when they start using the ‘PC’ card it’s basically an excuse to not have to defend any of their crap: ‘I’m un-PC therefore I’m right and you’re *censoring* me.’ They’re just casting themselves as the underdog and giving themselves a nice excuse to get out of any actual debate.
*hands out mince pies*
Oh… and sadly I agree with Crumbelievable’s 1st post. New years resolution: don’t read the comments section.
@bobbyjo “promote and direct the rape and violence against women and children” Who are you quoting?
‘How can you cry that men get falsely accused of rape and in the same breath tell guys to go forward and rape women and children’
Again who does this?
‘The mra’s “false rape society” doth protest too much because they want to cover up their crimes’
Ah so by all means protest about false rape accusations, but not too much… or your a rapist.
Part of the PC thing in my country is to say there are certain things that simply cannot be joked about, or even discussed. It closes down debate, closes down trains of thought and makes things bland.
For example banning nativety scenes in case it offends any non christians, not saying merry Christmas and instead saying seasons greetings.
Hey kids! “It’s not PC” is the new “it’s hateful and hurtful but I want to say it anyway, can we get a phrase that makes me seem like the victim here?”
I know a lot of people suffering from terrible PTSD after not being allowed to tell a rape joke, so you know, totally justified.
Fuck you, it’s Chanukah right now.
It’s Chanukah and Christmas and Kwanzaa and Yule and Winter Solstice and the New Year. It’s all those things. It’s not “season’s greetings” because we’re afraid to say Christmas, it’s “season’s greetings” because there’s more to this season than just Christmas.
It’s not anti-Christmas. It’s pro-realizing-Christmas-isn’t-the-only-holiday.
@Holly Pervocracy I have no problem with anyone saying any respective happy Chanukah/Christmas/Kwanzaa/Yule/Winter/Solstice/New Year, but being told your not allowed to say one or the other because it might offend someone is bullshit. Nowhere is my post did I say or imply seasons greetings was an anti christmas phrase, just that it was bland and boring.
I want the opposite, the freedom to say whichever greeting you wish, diversity makes things more interesting. Putting them all under a ‘seasons greetings’ is boring.
But yeah. Merry Christmans and fuck you too.
http://www.explosm.net/comics/2651/
You have the fucking first amendment. If there’s a fucking Happy Holidays Enforcer with a gun to your head, give me a fucking call. Let me know when they put you in fucking Christmas Jail because you said THE FORBIDDEN WORDS.
But you could be fucking polite even if you aren’t legally fucking forced to.
Merry Christmas, Holly.
Ullere: The point of “Happy Holidays” instead “Merry Christmas” is that maybe the person you are talking to does not celebrate Christmas and saying Merry Christmas to them might therefore make them feel excluded or just generally weird, and it’s not nice to make people feel that way.
This is hardly a grave injustice. And you are presumably free to say whatever greeting you want anyway.
You too, MRAL. :)
(I’m actually not allergic to those words. Just to people who pretend it’s a brave blow against oppression.)
Ullere: No one is “not allowed” to say Merry Christmas or to have a nativity scene on his or her own private property. I am not aware of anyone being arrested, fined or charged with a criminal offense to saying “Merry Christmas” or putting up plastic figures on his or her own front lawn. If you claim otherwise, kindly provide links.
Retailers often have their clerks say “Happy Holidays” instead of “Merry Christmas” because they want to do business with non-Christians as well, duh. Saying the greeting that your employer wants you to say is a condition of your employment, not a violation of your rights. Employment carries lots of other conditions, like a dress code, not spitting in customers’ faces, etc. Saying “Happy Holidays” is no different.
As for nativity scenes on public property, this clearly violates the US Constitution (the Establishment Clause specifically). The US Constitution also grants people the right to challenge the spending of taxpayers’ money on establishing religion — while generally, the government has an unlimited spending power with regard to all other types of expenditures. So basically, my non-Christian tax money shouldn’t have to pay for your fucking reindeer unless you also put a chanukia nearby.
And frankly, this whole “war on Christmas” bullshit — at a time when every retailer and every coffee shop plays Christmas carols non-stop and “Christ is the lord” is blaring round the clock from every FM station — just insults my intelligence.
You have the fucking first amendment. You can say any kind of greeting you want, me saying that everyone using the same ‘seasons greetings / happy holidays’ is bland doesn’t affect you. Oh yeah cause societal pessure up to the level where on this blog you start with the ‘fuck yous’ because I said I prefer to use whichever greeting I want is neglible because it’s not illegal.
you too could be fucking polite even if you aren’t legally fucking forced to. Jumping all over me cause I find seasons greetings boring? Aye fine.
http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/3810153.Council_set_to_axe_Christmas/
‘Rabbi Eli Bracknell, who teaches at the Jewish Educational Centre, in Cowley Road, said: “It’s important to maintain a traditional British Christmas. Anything that waters down traditional culture and Christianity in the UK is not positive for the British identity. ‘
But hey fuck him yeah? Cause it’s not just Christmas.
http://www.christian.org.uk/news/council-backs-ramadan-but-wont-say-christmas/
‘Councils embarrassed by Christianity:
Bideford
March 2008 – the National Association of Local Councils wrongly advised Bideford Town Council in Devon that it could be sued for opening its meetings with Christian prayers.
Torbay
June 2005 – Torbay Council removes a wooden cross from the wall of a crematorium chapel, and renames the building a ‘ceremony hall’.
Norfolk
May 2005 – Norfolk County Council warns a Christian-run shelter for the homeless that it will lose £150,000 of funding unless it stops saying grace at mealtimes and putting out Bibles for use by guests.
Islington
November 2005 – Islington Council bans Christmas lights and replaces them with “festive decorations”.
Peterborough
December 2004 – Peterborough City Council bans staff from sending each other Christmas greetings by email.
Worcester
November 2004 – Worcestershire County Council is urged by one of its ‘equality champions’ to scrap its 116 year-old tradition of beginning its bi-monthly meetings with Anglican prayers
Buckinghamshire
December 2003 – Buckinghamshire County Council banned a church from publicising its Christmas services on a community notice board to avoid offending other religions.’
Now I’m not even Christian but I still think this is bullshit.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-152361/The-Red-Cross-bans-Christmas.html
”When we asked we were told it is because we must not upset Moslems.’
Mrs Banks added: ‘ We have been instructed that we can’t say anything about Christmas and we certainly can’t have a Christmas tree.’
You have a grand festive season Holly.
oogy boogy we’re going to jew up your christmas
and that is the worst thing because it’s really christmas and not really anything else
oogy boogy
Ullere, those are some sterling sources you’ve whipped out. Just the kind of outlets that flog this “War on Christmas” nonsense.
When I see somebody using “PC,” or hear them (it pops up in classrooms and has since the 80s), I ask them what it means.
THe vast majority of people who use it cannot tell me.
I ask them why they are saying something if they don’t know what it means (the few who do give a definition–and it always differs, I as if they know where it came from and its history. They don’t). They don’t know, they just know they hear it.
So we often talk.
But the people who use the term, get pushback, and start yelling about ‘censorship’ make me want to smack them: free speech (as has been repeated often) does not mean “freedom from disagreement by those uppity people you want to continue to be marginalized,” not in this day and age. Too bad, so sad, the privileged groups (and I am privileged on a number of axes of identity) lost the ability to punish the less socially powerful groups from talking back or openly expressing disagreement in public settings. (note: i said want to; I have actually never smacked anybody on or off the internet).
If the government ain’t sending you to jail, shutting down your web site, or burning your publications, or acting in some other way to suppress your speech, you ain’t being censored.
Jon Stewart had a hilarious take on FOX news attacking the current governor of um some state for sending out a “holiday” card (and claiming the previous governor called it a Christmas tree–and Stewart showed the previous governor’s card which used the term HOLIDAY). He also pointed out that the reporter yammering on about the war against Christmas was on television wearing a cross. So YEAH, she’s really oppressed.
PLus, you dickbiscuits, the Christmas tree came from the pagans in NE Europe–ditto mistletoe and stuff–DRUIDS PAGANS AHAHAHAH (plus EASTER EGGS AND BUNNES, SO not in Jerusalem). As Jon pointed out: the PURITANS who came to this country BANNED Christmas, punshed people for saying Merry Christmas, and tried to shut the whole thing down because IDOLATRY.
History, assholes, learn about it before spouting this shit.
p.s. as far as they know, Jesus Christ was NOT born on December 25. That holiday got picked because, again, co-opt local non-Christian HOLIDAYS to justify your upstart new “cult.”
*stomps off to do some pagan stuff*
‘The point of “Happy Holidays” instead “Merry Christmas” is that maybe the person you are talking to does not celebrate Christmas and saying Merry Christmas to them might therefore make them feel excluded or just generally weird, and it’s not nice to make people feel that way.’
Really? That is bizzare, I’m not christian but I just respond with Merry Christmas. Or if some says happy Chanuka I’ll say Happy chanuka. If you were to say Seasons greetings to someone who then responded with Merry Christmas would you feel weird? If someone said Happy Kwanzaa, would you then be wrong to respond with Merry Christmas?
People feeling excluded or just generally weird is hardly a big issue, certainly not one big enough to not say Merry Christmas
@Amused I’m not American, I said at the start ‘Part of the PC thing in my country ‘
However I agree with everything you said in your post. I just gave two examples of what PC is in my own country the UK, ‘And frankly, this whole “war on Christmas” bullshit’ Yeah I absolutely agree, however when I used Merry Christmas as an example I was run over with the wave of ‘hey you can’t say that because… Fuck you, it’s Chanukah right now.
It’s Chanukah and Christmas and Kwanzaa and Yule and Winter Solstice and the New Year.’
“People feeling excluded or just generally wierd is hardly a big issue”
Genius! Um.
@ithiliana Yeah the trees came from Germany, some monarch brought them over when he married a German Princess. But it was Elizabeth who made them popular when she put gifts under them. I did a little research into Childermass once which lead me down a pretty interesting path of the history of Christmas. Remember to beat your kids to remind them of King herod, childermass was a weird one.
That’s perfectly cheery, except: When you say “Happy Holidays” and someone responds “Merry CHRISTMAS” real pointedly like you just oppressed them so hard, that’s obnoxious. But in general, no one’s stopping you.
Isn’t “feeling weird” your only issue here?
If I in fact had a super sekrit feminist power, EVERYBODY would have to read Terry Pratchett’s Hogfather
http://www.booklore.co.uk/PastReviews/PratchettTerry/Hogfather/HogfatherReview.htm
Well no Holly, my first post was ‘Part of the PC thing in my country is to say there are certain things that simply cannot be joked about, or even discussed. It closes down debate, closes down trains of thought and makes things bland. ‘
And this thread so far resonates with that. I couldn’t even discuss PC without a bunch of fuck yous flying at me, vague implications that by mentioning Christmas I’m ignoring all the other religions and seasonal practices, people telling me I have first amendment rights when I have said a few times here I’m not American, and etc. Could it be that the mere discussion of PC, is un PC? Or atleast if you think being PC can be a bad thing.
Apparently being un-PC gives you the right to not be disagreed with.
Because people criticizing your un-PC-ness hurts your feelings!
@ithiliana I loved his Guards series but could really get into the other books, I will check out hogfather at my local Library today though. It’s terrible what Mr Pratchet is going through, alzheimers is a curse to anyone but it seems like a greater loss to the world when it affects such a creative person.
@Holly Pervocracy My feelings remain unhurt. You didn’t disagree with me, you didn’t say PC is good or PC doesn’t shut down debate. Instead you listen religions and seasonal practices that aren’t Merry Christmas. In short you responded by being politically correct.
This really is turning into an amazing case of Tolerate My Intolerance.
“Please don’t criticize me for being un-PC. People need to respect and tolerate my un-PC ways of expressing myself, or I feel hurt and silenced. Words can have a big impact, and people rudely telling me not to be un-PC make it harder for me to go about my life. Please, think before you speak! Un-PCs have feelings too!”
You certainly didn’t say being PC does not make things bland, it creates greater diversity…
If everyone says Seasons greetings then thats so many other words left unsaid. Even the end of harmless greeting phrases is boring and bland. Evering saying the exact same thing, like some endless echo chamber of PC hellos is a boring nightmare.
In honor of Jesus’ sacrifice, I always try to not masturbate on Christmas.
People feeling excluded or just generally weird is hardly a big issue, certainly not one big enough to not say Merry Christmas
It’s not “people”, though, it’s the specific person you’re talking to. What’s the point of saying anything at all if you don’t care about the person’s reaction?
Personally, since you asked, “Merry Christmas” makes me feel like a part of the Secret Christian Club (I’m an atheist but grew up Christian), and “Happy Holidays” makes me think “oh yeah, it’s December”. And I normally just say “You too!” or say back whatever the person said. I have also been wished a happy Diwali and a happy Rosh Hashanah (obviously when those holidays were happening), and I thought that was cool.
But I could see how it would get annoying for someone who is not even slightly Christian to hear Merry Christmas all the time, given that I live in America and we’re very Christian-centric. Which is why, if I don’t know which holiday the person I’m talking to is celebrating, I say “Happy Holidays”.
Holly your being obtuse. You never criticised what I said, you just responded with drivvel, now your painting me as moaning for saying that PC in my country damages expression and makes things boring, is used to shut down debate. I never advocated saying anything offensive, Merry Christmas was the example I used.
Ullere, you are aware there’s no gun to your head forcing you to say “Season’s Greetings”?
You’re totally free to also say “Happy Holidays!” “Merry Winter!” or “Joyous Solstice!”
Guys, you don’t think that instead of discussing of PC, you should talk about MRAs ? :)
For example, there’s a woman at Hookingupsmart that has a daughter that dated a guy in the MGTOW :
And these guys want to restore patriarchy …
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2011/12/19/hookinguprealities/hookup-culture-rightly-laid-at-feminisms-feet/#comment-83770
@NullPointer What’s the point of saying anything at all if you don’t care about the person’s reaction?
I believe PC is used to close down debate… etc Don’t really want to repeat myself but you get the jist.
Saying you too is fine, but responding with Merry Christmas is fine too. Is this really so important?
‘I have also been wished a happy Diwali and a happy Rosh Hashanah (obviously when those holidays were happening), and I thought that was cool.’
I’d probably feel pretty cool too, just from knowing that the person greeting me is involved in practices I have never witnessed. Knowing there are huge worlds out there I have never experience is pretty exciting. But you didn’t feel weird, or oppressed or whatever just because you didn’t happen to celebrate or believe in their practice?
‘But I could see how it would get annoying for someone who is not even slightly Christian to hear Merry Christmas all the time’
Well I could see how it would be annoying for someone who is incredibly Anti-social to hear ‘hello’ all the time, but thats just tough I reckon. Say happy holidays if you like, but I don’t like the implication in my country that if you don’t say something bland and PC that it is somehow intolerant.
@Holly Pervocracy Yes Holly I’m aware. However by saying I feel pressure to say Seasons greetings instead of Merry Christmas in my country you responded with the Fuck you list. Are you aware that your reaction is the same reaction that people occassionally get for saying Merry Christmas? I linked the explosm comic, the hostile reactions people get for not being PC even over banal things like a seasonal hello is nonsense and stifles society. Thats right Holly your fuck yous are just another in the long list of people being hostile for no reason.
Although you did say Merry Christmas to MRAL, so maybe it’s just me your hostile to and not my desire to say Merry Christmas.
Ullere, you can’t proudly post rape jokes, brag that you’re “un-PC” (which is just a fancy politicized way of saying “rude”), and then expect love and acceptance back. Love and acceptance are “politically correct” and I thought you weren’t into that.
Sorry I’m not being politically correct to you!
‘not saying merry Christmas and instead saying seasons greetings.’
I stated in my first post that not saying exactly what you would like to say because you wish to be PC is boring. you responding with the Fuck yous. Yes you are free to say whatever you want but look up this thread there are people on this forum who say happy holidays because they don’t want to offend/make people feel excluded. Yet when someone greets them with a ‘happy Rosh Hashanah ‘ they have no problem with it.
Ullere, Iook, I’m not a fan of excessive political correctness, but I’ve never been told “fuck you” for walking down the street and wishing somebody a merry Christmas. I just can’t help but think that this is an entirely hypothetical debate.
“Happy Holidays” isn’t a politically correct term, it’s just expedient, because there are a lot of, you know, holidays this time of year. It *is* kind of awkward to wish a Jewish person a merry Christmas, because they don’t celebrate it.
Oh no, a war on Christmas! People probably want to steal my presents, knock down my Christmas tree, and spit on the gingerbread cookies! This is oppression!!!
/sarcasm
I would have a problem with someone saying “Happy Kwanzaa” or whatever. I wouldn’t flip out, but I’d think it was a bit presumptuous.
Then I’d move on.
@Holly Pervocracy | My george Carwin video was actually a joke about a rapist not about rape. I posted it not to make a rape joke but to use George Carwins words on PC. There are some people.. who want to tell you what you can and cannot say… ok you can talk about that but not joke about that…’
Again Holly your not this daft. I never bragged about anything, only said that PC shuts down debate. Now as you said you are not being PC to me and we have had this debate, wonderous that it is. If you had been PC and I had been PC then this whole thread would never have happened, what a boring world that would be. I also don’t expect love and acceptance, although as a person I do need love, but I don’t really mind if I get it on Man Boobz.
I wouldn’t say “fuck you” to “Merry Christmas.” It is Christmas, among other things, and I hope everyone has a merry one. :)
I say “fuck you” to people who think that their right to Christmas is being oppressed or that it’s somehow “PC” for other holidays to ever be acknowledged.
I’m sorry, is the implication that Merry Christmas is somehow a bold and exiting phrase compared to Happy Holidays or Seasons Greetings? Really? Maybe you shouldn’t say it around people with weak hearts then. You don’t want them to get over-excited. There’ll be a heart attack epidemic on the 25th, I bet.
You know, I’m going to buck the trend this year and say Happy Holidays just to offend people who get all worked up over not hearing Merry Christmas. Being PC is the new un-PC!
Haha, George Carwin.
But you don’t want a debate. You just want to be congratulated for your un-PC-ness.
Debate has not been shut down–we’re having one!–and somehow you aren’t happy.
Right, Holly, I wasn’t saying you would. I find this kind of “complaint” to be really circlejerky and theoretical. Sure, the mass media is kind of PC for mass appeal… but no one is going to curbstomp you for wishing someone a merry Christmas in the damn mall.
The ultimate problem here, and the real reason I’m upset, is the implication that no one really celebrates Chanukah or anything else. That the populace would be quite happy to acknowledge Christmas as the One True Holiday if it weren’t for the darn PC Police.
That’s what bugs me–the undercurrent of “but, c’mon, this is silly because we’re all Christian here, right?”
Like I said, I’ve got nothing against “Merry Christmas” or any of its trappings. I just packed Christmas presents in my bag and I’m going to Midnight Mass with my partner’s family. But I’m willing to do that because they respect my religion and I respect theirs. Not because Christmas was the real holiday all along.
I’m yelling at Ullere, not you, MRAL. We’re cool. :)
@Mral ‘Ullere, Iook, I’m not a fan of excessive political correctness’
My man thats perfect, that what I said at the start. Saying PC can shut down debate and makes the world more boring. I don’t mean lets run amuck with racist chants, just that being PC or as you say ‘excessively PC’ can make things boring.
‘“Happy Holidays” isn’t a politically correct term, it’s just expedient, because there are a lot of, you know, holidays this time of year’
It is if you’d prefer to say something else but choose not to because you may offend, or because your worried about the fuck yous.
‘It *is* kind of awkward to wish a Jewish person a merry Christmas, because they don’t celebrate it.’
See I think this is what causes exclusion, I would be happy for someone to wish me any seasonal greeting, it’s not a big deal. Would it also be awkward to invite a non christian to a chirstmas party? Seeing how they don’t celebrate it. You said you would feel someone was being presumptious for wishing you something you might not celebrate but I don’t know if your being totally honest with yourself. Unless you really analyse qwhat peoples motives are for speaking to you I would hope you’d just say You too, or indeed Happy whatever back. Is it so bad that someone who is celebrating something you aren’t involved in gives you a greeting. If a local football(I’m not sure how big sports are over there whereever you live are) team had one a trophy/season and one of their fans greeted you with a The SOCKS RULE WHOOO yould you really think hes being presumptious if you don’t follow the team? Or would you just go WHOO and be happy for him and his joy? I’d personally just be stoked for the guy.
@ Kendra ‘‘And frankly, this whole “war on Christmas” bullshit’ Yeah I absolutely agree, however when I used Merry Christmas as an example I was run over with the wave of ‘hey you can’t say that because… Fuck you, it’s Chanukah right now.’
@ Holly we are having a debate because as you have pointed out neither of us are being PC to each other.
‘The ultimate problem here, and the real reason I’m upset, is the implication that no one really celebrates Chanukah or anything else. That the populace would be quite happy to acknowledge Christmas as the One True Holiday if it weren’t for the darn PC Police.’
Fair enough. I think the people of those respective believes should use their own respective belief’s greeting. Instead of the PC seasonal etc. In this very thread people have said the reason they don’t say Merry Christmas is because they don’t want people to feel excluded or weird. It’s noble to consider other peoples feelings but it’s cowardly to be PC because you might offend with a seasonal Greeting. Really a Merry Christmas doesn’t do anyone any harm, its not a hate word nor a slander. Saying you are free to say what you like is fine, but in this very thread and in the wider world people are choosing to not say what the like because they might hurt feelings.
I don’t think we are so far apart on this issue, or more accurately you aren’t addressing the same issue I was.
@Holly Pervocracy
“oogy boogy we’re going to jew up your christmas
and that is the worst thing because it’s really christmas and not really anything else
oogy boogy”
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Our State religion
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/national-menorah-to-be-lit-near-white-house-in-washington-for-1st-night-of-hanukkah/2011/12/20/gIQASqIi6O_story.html
I didn’t notice a “national” nativity scene being promoted this year? Did you? Where was the ACLU?
Wanna see what happens if you try and put a nativity scene on the white house lawn?
http://global.christianpost.com/news/minister-faces-arrest-for-white-house-nativity-display-65423/
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For all your protestation of being an atheist you sure jump on the semitic supremacy bandwagon whenever you get a chance.
Well, oogy boogy. I’m gonna Christian up your precious hanukkah. Time to start writing letters to the ACLU and get that atrocity torn down off the white house lawn. Seperation of church and State, princess.
I told you yesterday, if you mock anything about Christians, I mock anything about Jews. Rename the menorah the money tree! Don’t like princess? How about you Amused? Sure looks like “Cultural Marxism” to me. Nativity scene = arrest. Menorah = “National menorah.”
Oogy boogy ladies! You don’t “tolerate” my faith on the white house lawn, I’m sure as hell gonna lobby to get that fucking thing ripped down.