“I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey … ” A visit to Reddit’s “seduction” community.
If you wonder why some dudes get so worked up about “false rape accusations,” it may be because their notion of “seduction” is pretty much indistinguishable from what most of us would call “date rape.” And chances are good that they sort of know this.
Check out this discussion in Reddit’s Seduction subreddit, recently highlighted in ShitRedditSays.
The original poster writes in with a heartrending tale: it seems he can’t get the ladies to touch his penis. Throw5891away writes:
So I have little problem getting numbers, little trouble turning those numbers into dates, I can keep her interested during dates, but i can’t make the move to anything physical beyond a kiss or some light making out.
Let’s have the deets!
A lot of my problem, I think, comes from the fear of possibly making it awkward. I’ve been in a few situations where i’ve tried to slide a hand down the pants of a girl and she turns timid. This is after some over-clothes touching, or pressure with my thigh. Warming them up, i think, is not the major problem. Obviously if a girl says no, i’m not going to push through with it because that’s when it gets awkward.
Yes, trying to stick your fingers in a woman’s vagina when she doesn’t want you to does tend to get a little … awkward.
Beyond me failing at making a first move, it’s nearly impossible for me to get a girl to notice I have an erection and attempt to do something about it.
Maybe you need to wear a t-shirt that says “erection” on it with a big arrow pointing to your crotch? Otherwise how on earth are the ladies you’re making out with ever going to realize you have a boner?
I’m average in size there, so them not noticing is not an issue. I feel like I almost have to physically take their hand and place it on my junk in order to make it happen. And after a while of them paying no attention to my erection (mind you, they’re still gropey elsewhere/into making out), it really starts to make wonder if they’re really into having sex with me at all.
It seems you might just be onto something here. And how on earth can you possibly tell if a woman actually, for real, wants to have sex with you? It’s not like you can ask her directly, because she has the power of speech, or anything like that.
Instead, you’d better ask the dudes on r/seduction. So let’s just see what they have to say.
PuaCurveBall suggests that the best way to avoid the “awkwardness” spoken of earlier is just to ignore it:
I hope this advice doesn’t sounds rapey, but you need to keep going until they seriously tell you no.
Pro-tip: Any bit of advice that starts off with “I hope this advice doesn’t sound rapey” is advice you SHOULD NOT FOLLOW.
Them not telling you firmly to stop (more than just “we shouldn’t be doing this” or “it is too soon”) is the signal. Escalate until they tell you to stop.
Yes, because “we shouldn’t be doing this” is such an ambiguous statement. It could mean anything! It probably is just girl-code for “we should be doing this, so please grab my hand and put it on your dick.”
Either you should get a firm “no, seriously get your hands off me, I’m not ready yet” or you should be having sex with these girls. Everything in the middle is working against you.
So long as she doesn’t literally mace you, you can assume she actually wants you to keep going.
Naturally, the suave Lotherios of the r/seduction community rewarded this sensible advice with upvotes.
Others offered similar advice. Productionx was insistent: “No” means “keep going!”
Women want a man to be dominate. Other women lead you to believe you have to ask for permission, don’t listen to these stupid feminists. Go be a man, if she says no, you say ok, and keep doing exactly what you were doing. You get an erection, make it freaking known!!!
Fangs78 added:
Don’t give up before like the 9-10th time they stop you. Of course, if they are stern and REALLY mean it.
Everyone knows that the first 9 or 10 “no’s” really mean “maybe.”
It’s all part of the art of “seduction.”
This post contains:
Posted on December 21, 2011, in creepy, false accusations, I'm totally being sarcastic, men who should not ever be with women ever, misogyny, penises, rape, rapey, reddit, sexual harassment, vaginas. Bookmark the permalink. 384 Comments.
@Raincitygirl
haha thanks X)
NWO thinks it is okay to rape men and beat women who say things he doesn’t like.
DKM is, we have discovered, a visitor from an alternate universe: a libertarian, magitek cyberpunk dystopia.
He Who Must Not Be Named, Br-don, who shows up when summoned, is the new nominee for Most Boring Dudebroish troll.
Arks wins the award for Most Creative Use of Language, with his references to “hot buttered manatees.” He also enjoys hating on geeky women.
Other new trolls include Whatever and Monsueir sans Now, neither of which is particularly interesting.
In my head this keeps crossing with that running gag from Orgazmo:
“I hope this doesn’t sound rapey, but I think unicorns are kickass!”
“I hope this doesn’t sound rapey, but I think fire is very romantic.”
“I hope this doesn’t sound rapey, but I’d kinda like to make love to you tonight.”
Also, thank you, Laplace. :) NSWATM is my baby, after all, and it’s always nice to hear that someone appreciates it.
ಠ_ಠ
David, I find it admirable that you’re able to switch from MGTOW to PUAs so quickly. Two sides of the same misogyny coin. :(
Speaking of Reddit, I found this hilarious image on /shitredditsays: A more honest /mensrights.
^^^ In case it’s not clear, someone took a screenshot of /mensrights front page and rewrote the titles. It’s pretty accurate.
I hope this doesnt sound rapey but I’m the casting. Director for a production of The Rape of the Lock, and I think you should try out… No no it’s not about a guy raping a lock… Well, I mean it’s not about a guy having, like, forced intercourse with a keyhole or anything … well it’s a classic of the theatre… no,no I just thought you might like to try out…
Right, so there’s this truly bizarre film called Orgazmo, it’s made by the same people behind South Park, and is probably the only Mormon/Porno/Superhero film you’ll ever see.
This movie contains a running gag where one man says to another, “I don’t want to sound like a queer or nothin’, but…” all those things I listed and more.
After skimming the comments and seeing “I hope this doesn’t sound rapey” get attached to everything, something reminded me of the movie and the two running gags fused in my head, with results that would have festered if I hadn’t posted it. So in self-defense, I shared it with you. I expect your revenge will be swift and excruciating.
Guinea pigs FTW!
My adopted pair of brothers recently lost one pig to cancer. He died in my arms. He had pain meds. The brother pig actually seems quite content, active, vocal, snuggly. He likes the rabbit intrusions into his space, and in a way appears more active than before. The bro-pig was bossy & they did a lot of “neck fighting”.
I may keep him a singleton unless he starts to seem bored or unhappy. He doesn’t mind the rabbits, even though they are only in there to scavenge treats.
Wheeeeeeeek! OOoooooooooot! Warblewarble cheerrummpttttwahwahwah!
My piggy was a singleton and seemed pretty happy with the situation but he also had bunny companions and was played with a lot so he didn’t get bored.
Hey David, will you be covering the release of real life information from a feminist website to an MRA website? Here are the relevant Reddit posts on the subject:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nfb5p/release_to_the_world/
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/nleln/agent_orange_files_released/
This seems really dangerous to me, and these women will now be subjected to everything from angry letters from MRAs to their employers to stalking to maybe even physical violence.
I’m kinda surprised you haven’t covered this topic already. If MRAs are willing to act like this, then their so-called “movement” has absolutely no credibility.
Dude, this isn’t the first time MRAs have released personal info:
http://manboobz.com/2011/11/21/mens-rights-site-a-voice-for-men-offers-1000-bounty-for-personal-information-on-swedish-feminists/
http://manboobz.com/2011/11/23/and-what-if-they-get-killed-a-voice-for-men-as-an-antifeminist-witchfinder-general/
I will do something on the AgentOrange bullshit soon.
When I read stories like the ones in the OP, I get baffled. Sexual communication happens with my spouse all the time, and it ain’t that complicated or, you know, fraught with danger. One of us dresses minimally, goes into the room where the other is, walks up to them and says “Hi!” in a bright cheerful manner. Or we might be cuddling, and one spouse asks the other, “So, are you horny?”
But then, that’s in a relationship. And I can see how that would not apply to people who want sex outside of relationships. So, here’s the true advice: limiting your sexual communication to nonverbal signals is a bad idea. I just noticed that even in my examples, there are both verbal and nonverbal components.
But, I sadly believe that this isn’t really the issue. The “problem” is, there is no way to guarantee sex during any given interaction. That’s very important. If you want some way to know, ahead of time, absolutely, that you will get laid, with no exceptions, well, that isn’t going to happen, ever. And if you want to know “how can I manipulate people into doing what I want them to do, regardless of their own feelings, and have them not be pissed off afterwards?” I don’t have any good advice.
Oh, and seriously: “Escalate until they tell you to stop”? “Escalate”? Isn’t that, like, a term used in describing violent or criminal behavior? Googling for “escalate sex” only brings up PUA-type sites. I think there’s a connection here.
Wow! It really seems like the PUA idea of the path to sexual relations is kiss —> fuck and it blows out their fragile circuits when other people are like, Hey, buddy, you just skipped like 20 really enjoyable steps right there. Guaranteed, when engaged in sincerely, to make this interaction hotter for everyone involved.
PUAs are the male version of a slut.
Sluts parade about to arouse and get sex from a man who they’ve decided is worthy. Girls are taught from a young age to ply their trade like professionals. Sluts get the added bonus of recieving gifts, dinners, movies, vacations, cash, entertainment for being exceptionally adept at their profession. They don’t need to say much at all since acting like an animal in heat is a womans sexuality.
PUAs need to actively approach women who they want to have sex with. They ply their trade as well. They talk, act, entertain, ect. in order to get sex. Their goal is just the sex and they use what’s at their disposal to get it. They also act like an animal in heat to achieve their goals.
Feminism, being inclusive should embrace PUA culture right alongside slut culture. They are both one in the same. Why shame a man for getting as much sex as possible from different women when you demand praise for a woman who does the same thing? Celebrate them both.
If it’s the emotional pain that concerns you, since no physical pain takes place. A man who is used by a slut feels emotional pain as well. Slut culture is being promoted world-wide. Millions upon millions of men will be emotionally hurt everyday. Expect millions upon millions of women to be emotionally hurt everyday as well.
Oh, but NWO, what do PUAs wear?
Also, is it okay to rape a man if you think he’s a PUA?
No, NWO, the difference comes down to consent, a concept you still seem to have trouble grasping.
@Holly Pervocracy
“Oh, but NWO, what do PUAs wear?”
It doesn’t matter what men wear. Men and women are different. Pretty stupid thing to say. Don’t ya think? Are you telling me men and women have the same sexuality? Do they look the same? Act the same? Think the same?
I’m assuming that, since NWOslave thinks of PUAs as “sluts”, they all wear transparent tops and micro miniskirts.
Yes! Certainly every individual human is different, but those differences are not neatly broken down by gender.
I mean, I’ve only been a woman so I can’t know, but you’ve only been a man so… say, how do you know?
Please, tell me how you know.
NWO, I don’t criticize PUA’s for being promiscuous. I don’t judge them for having sex with lots of women. The problem is that their advice is about testing women’s boundaries and “escalation” rather than seeking enthusiastic consent from their partners.
Sluts parade about to arouse and get sex from a man who they’ve decided is worthy. Girls are taught from a young age to ply their trade like professionals. Sluts get the added bonus of recieving gifts, dinners, movies, vacations, cash, entertainment for being exceptionally adept at their profession. They don’t need to say much at all since acting like an animal in heat is a womans sexuality.
I just wanted to see this again because it’s a polished gem of weirdness. “Plying their trade?” The fuck? Where the hell did you grow up, NWO? Where do you live now. It isn’t a pocket dimension by any chance?
NWOslave, why do you keep saying “Men and women are different!” when you *just said* that both men and women can be sluts?
NWO always reminds me of Stephen Colbert.
“How do I know this? I said it, and then I said it again. So that’s two pieces of evidence.”
@Holly Pervocracy
Well if what you say is true, that those differences are not neatly broken down by gender. How is it only women are saying any particular action is considered “rapey.” Well, other than male feminist bred ideologists?
Doesn’t this statement fly in the face of reality?
NWOslave, if both male PUAs and female sluts can be slutty, how can the genders really be that different? Shouldn’t there be ONLY female sluts or ONLY PUAs if sluttiness is a gender thing?
Right… some women and some men deem a certain behavior rapey, and others disagree. This proves….
Nope, it’s not working.
Both men and women are saying it. (In fact, this discussion originated with David, who is a man, calling something rapey.)
But any time a man says it, you call him a “feminist bred ideologist.”
Both men and women are doing the same thing, but you’re labeling the men differently. The only difference is the one you created in your head.
So… ‘No men are saying this apart from those I’ve chosen to ignore for arbitrary reason #34′
Well that seems reasonable.
Stuff like this makes me sad. I mean more the original question then the responses, the responses are horrible but they don’t hit me the same.
I have done a few things that I regret in my life that are a little like this. I never ignored outright no’s but there are a few times I did things I really regret. When my girlfriend said stop I stopped, but I can remember when she asked if I was almost done implying that she wanted to stop and I kept going. I can remember counting my feelings as more important than hers in that moment and just thinking about it makes me feel bad. I learned from it and I don’t do that anymore but you can’t undo the past. Or I kept asking or implying and she gave in and afterwards we had a conversation about it and how it wasn’t really cool. I learned from that also but its fucked up that I had to learn at someone else’s expense.
I can remember meeting a girl from online for a first date, getting drunk and making out in a church yard. At some point I started fingering her, I think I had tried once or twice before that and she’d stopped me. Then since it was too late for public transit and my place was within walking distance we walked there and slept in my bed with nothing happening. After we took the train in the morning I never saw her again, though I texted and emailed her over the next week(not every minute probably once a day at most but still) until she replied and said politely she didn’t wasn’t interested. I should have taken silence as an answer and to be fair I stopped after the one response but the whole thing haunts me. I can interpret it all as her just not having a great time and parting on fine terms or her feeling violated and then having to spend the night with me and then feeling harassed by me not getting the hint. I have no idea which one is correct and there’s no way to know and it haunts me.
I’m not really sure what my takeaway from this all is, I identified as a feminist at the time and had read and agreed with plenty on consent and whatnot and still I did those things. I feel like reading about it and living it are different but that that’s not a good enough answer. And hell, I had been exposed to feminism and even understood that what I did was wrong afterwards. Thinking about people like me without even those things is scary. I think this is the first time I’ve ever really understood rape culture at a non intellectual level.
@Kendra, the bionic mommy
“NWO, I don’t criticize PUA’s for being promiscuous. I don’t judge them for having sex with lots of women. The problem is that their advice is about testing women’s boundaries and “escalation” rather than seeking enthusiastic consent from their partners.”
“Escalation?” It makes it sound all so nasty. A good word I guess when promoting an agenda.
How about if I call it “carressing” instead of “groping?” Now it’s not so bad is it?
—————
A PUA walks up to a woman, whispers sweet nothings into her ear and gently carresses her.
A PUA rudely struts up to a woman and gropes her while spewing foul obsenities.
—————
Watch this: I’ll prove all ducks are white.
All ducks are white.
Well, except for some ducks, like Mallards and such, but I don’t think we should really count those as ducks, because they’re not white. And as we know, all ducks are white.
QED
These describe obviously different actions, but anyway… both of these are gross to do to someone who hasn’t given their consent.
I don’t think NWO understands the concept of consent. I mean, literally. It explains so much.
NWO, the PUA’s themselves choose to use the word escalation. I’m glad you agree that it sounds nasty, because that’s what we’ve already been saying.
@Ramza
Why aren’t your feelings more important than hers?
Why are her feeling more important than your’s?
————
In your stories I noticed it was OK for her to sexually arouse you then pull the plug.
———–
So in the modern world it’s OK for women to sexually arouse a man and than deny him. Wouldn’t this constitute sexual and emotional abuse?
Yes. No.
And that’s true even if she’s actually trying to arouse him, and not just “arousing” him by wearing normal clothes where he can see her.
The feelings of the person who doesn’t want to have sex are always more important than the feelings of the person who does.
You’re the only one trying to bring gender into this one.
Sure wouldn’t! Neat question, got more?
Yep, I was right. Consent means nothing to NWO, at least when it’s about other people.
@Holly Pervocracy
Since everyone is different as the feminists love to say. If a man does “escalate” and the woman approves it’s OK. If the same man “escalates” with a different woman and she doesn’t approve he has committed a rapey act.
The only way to know if “escalation” is USDA approved is to actually “escalate.”
Perhaps a feminist flow chart.
May I talk to you?
May I look at your face only?
May I venture an opinion?
May I walk a pace behind and to the left while you are walking?
May I compliment you?
May I be informed if my compliment is out of line?
May I be forgiven if my compliment is out of line?
May I have a list of what you consider is an appropriate compliment?
May I touch your left index finger.
May I proceed to touch your entire left hand?
Am I being too forward?
If I’m being too forward, may I apologize?
Will you accept my apology?
Yep! Now you’re getting it!
Nope! You can use your words and ask!
In your “flow chart” you make it seem ridiculous, but asking before having physical contact with a person is simple and entirely appropriate!
See how easy this can be?
As you can see, as has been illustrated time and time again, NWO has no fucking ability to understand consent. None. Zilch. Zero.
Think about the way he talks about women who are in bars. Accept a drink, fuck the guy who bought it for you? You’re a whore. Accept the drink, don’t fuck the guy who bought it for you? You’re a horrible tease, arousing a man and promising him sex and then denying him. Don’t accept the offer of a drink? You’re a bitch who deems the man “unworthy”.
Pump the breaks while making out or during sex? It’s sexual and emotional abuse of the man.
According to NWO, a woman consents to sex not by expressing desire (women have no sexuality beyond a man’s gaze), experiencing arousal, or participating in sexual activity. Women consent to sex by being female. Period. Being out, in public, around men, dressed in anything, any man can find remotely attractive means that a female human is offering sex to any man that can see her.
“Animals in heat.” Right?
The only time a woman is raped? Is when a strange man, driven to assault by the constant teasing by all women, beats some poor woman half to death before sexually assaulting her.
Just like “context”, there is no “consent”.
NWO, why do you have such difficulty with this concept?
I have control over my body. You have control over your body. If you say “no, I don’t want you to do Thing X with my body,” then I have to stop. On the other hand, if you want to do Thing Y with your body that does NOT affect my body, I do not have the right to tell you to stop, because it is your body and you decide what you do with it.
And if women’s sexuality is not visual, kindly explain why when my girlfriend said (discreetly, of course) “look, there’s a hot redhead!” the other two woman and one man at the table all whipped their heads around to watch her ass. (God. She had a GREAT ass.)
You’re sort of right about one thing, NWO; one woman might not wish to be touched by a man, but another woman might welcome touch by the very same guy! Because women are individuals. Also, CONSENT!
@Holly Pervocracy
“The feelings of the person who doesn’t want to have sex are always more important than the feelings of the person who does.”
Which is why it’s OK to sexually arouse any man at any womans discretion. The slut culture of constant arousal and denial can have only one ending for a society. Men and women are different. What you’re essentially saying is you promote one form of sexual abuse while demanding protection from the other form. Unless you don’t believe arousal/denial is abuse?
@NWO
And the art of asking before you “escalate” is wrong because….?
@ozymandias42
Men and women are different. Please refer to reality.
1. No, it is not abuse.
2. Men arouse woman all the time. They go jogging without their shirts on. They stretch at their desks while looking cute. They smile. They wear tight jeans.
I, for one, have no problem with this and wish it to continue.
I don’t believe arousal/denial is abuse!
I am aroused by the sight of John Barrowman, but John Barrowman has not come to my house and fucked me. This does not mean John Barrowman has abused me.
The OP – ugh. Ugh ugh ugh. No words other than ugh.
Whoever suggested PUAs get RealDolls and leave other humans alone (ozy?) had the right idea. If you don’t care whether or not your partner wants to have sex with you, if it’s all about bragging to other men about your number, why bother? Just use a sex doll! True, it’ll just lie there, but so will the woman you are date raping! And RealDolls don’t take you to court!
Or, since it’s all about other men anyway, these guys could just cut out the middleman (middlewoman?) and have sex with each other and brag about that.
Oh, and possible TMI alert, but most of my propositions involve some variation on the phrase “Let’s get these dogs out of the bedroom”.
And NWO, just FOAD.
By the way, NWO, was that you trolling my blog a moment ago? It was most unpleasant.
@Holly Pervocracy
Yet as you say, everyone is different. My flow chart may be ridiculous to you yet another woman might find it delightful.
@Holly Pervocracy
Puuuulease. I never post under any name but this. Youd’ve banned me long ago. Dissenters aren’t allowed in the feminist echo chamber. Everyone’s the same there.
Since some people (coughNWOcough) have problems with this, I would like to explore how I conduct a sex life without being rapey.
I am horny. My partner Bob doesn’t look busy, so I ask him whether he would like to have sex with me. (Actually I usually say “would you like to *gesturegesture* do things?” because I am shy.) Bob says yes. If Bob said no, I wouldn’t be like “are you suuure?” I’d be like “kay” and go comment on Manboobz. Because he knows this, Bob is willing to say “no” whenever he doesn’t feel like sex.
Bob and I have already discussed our limits: for instance, he doesn’t want to have PIV sex with me, and he is uncomfortable about facials. I do not attempt to shove my vagina on Bob’s cock because if he tries PIV he will really like it. I do not ask Bob again and again to see if he wants PIV now, or how about now, or maybe now. Instead, I enjoy the sexual activities we both want to participate in.
While I am having sex with Bob, I keep an eye on him to see if he’s enjoying it. If he’s actively participating in the sex, such as by taking off my clothes, fingering me, or making “I’m enjoying myself” noises, I tend to assume he’s enjoying himself. If he’s not, I may ask, saying something like “hey, you okay?” If he says that he isn’t, I will stop doing what I’m doing and either stop having sex with him or do something else that he enjoys more.
If Bob ever says “no,” “stop,” “that’s enough for now,” “it’s starting to hurt,” or anything else that implies he doesn’t want sex, I will stop IMMEDIATELY.
Such are the complexities of living on Earth.
What’s your alternative scheme for sexual consent, NWO? That you should be allowed to just jump on anyone who arouses you?
John Barrowman is kind of meh to me. However the entire first season of Torchwood seemed to be designed to set up as many slashfic scenarios as possible (Gwen making out with the sex alien, Gwen walking in on Jack and Ianto and Jack saying “There’s always room for one more”, Gwen and Owen making out in the body bay during the horrible, horrible Cyberwoman episode…I could go on), so maybe I’m just being like “You know what, Russelll T Davies, I know what you’re trying to do and I’m not falling for it”.
NWO’s plan is likely to reduce the number of hot redheads wearing dark red lipstick, tight tops, and short skirts in the world. Therefore, out of pure self-interest, I have to oppose this.
I never ban people from my blog, I only delete individual comments. If you want to come back and play nice you always have the chance.
(“Play nice” doesn’t mean “agree with the Hive Vagina,” it just means “don’t call me a stupid c-word.”)
Kristen: Torchwood was once explained to me as “high-budget, canonical slash fanfic.” I have yet to see any data to disprove this.
NWO, darling, you are banned from NSWATM, but I challenge ANYONE to call it a feminist hivemind that bans dissent. Several of my commenters seem to actively hate me.
I think the central problem in NWO’s plan is that he doesn’t understand that being arousing can be unintentional. That I can go out with no plan to give a guy a boner and yet accidentally cause a boner.
I suspect if he acknowledged that, his whole “arousing me should mean consenting to sex with me” thing would fall apart.
@Holly Pervocracy
” I don’t believe arousal/denial is abuse!”
Than teach all children to tease other children. It isn’t abuse.
The reason you don’t find it a problem is because you’re a woman. It has no relevance to you.
When a woman dresses and acts sexy she has no control and acts like an animal in heat.
When a man touches and gropes he has no control and acts like an animal in heat.
Men and women are different.
I don’t understand why some random dude while I am walking to work or whatever getting horny because of my awesome boots or whatever obligates me to sex with him.
Oh shit! I don’t want to do that! Tell me how to avoid it!
…Hey, since I don’t mean to dress and act sexy (I just don’t know how not to), doesn’t that demonstrate to you that arousal can be accidental, not something I planned?
@Holly Pervocracy
“I think the central problem in NWO’s plan is that he doesn’t understand that being arousing can be unintentional. That I can go out with no plan to give a guy a boner and yet accidentally cause a boner.”
Yet you promote slut culture for even little girls. This is intent.
The vast majority of men don’t find little girls sexually attractive and, thus, don’t find them arousing no matter what they wear.
When a woman dresses and acts sexy she has no control and acts like an animal in heat.
When a man touches and gropes he has no control and acts like an animal in heat.
Men and women are different.
Here’s a multiple choice question:
1) Willful social blindness?
2) Just an asshole?
3) Deliberate liar?
4) A little of each?